Season 2 | Episode 82 | Gil and Brenda Stuart's Journey to RT and Development of Their Book, Lilly's Pads

Lance, what's up?

What's up, dude?

Hey, happy Labor Day weekend over.

Yeah, you know what this is? This is episode 82.

Man, we got work to do, bro.

How are we gonna get to 100?

We got 18 episodes.

Yeah, I think we, we were cranking along and then, you know, you and I have been taking a little bit of a break. We've had a lot going on in our lives recently, so—

I've been really inspired recently though, so we got stuff to talk about.

Okay, I'd love to hear that. Hey, let's talk about a couple of big announcements. Why don't you share you and I's announcement?

Well, after a long time— just kidding. Um, sorry, I'm a little spunky today. Uh, so things going on for Rhett and I needed to postpone our, um, pastors, uh, or male ministry leader, uh, turning from anxiety retreat. So we moved the dates. Um, so for all of you, I know you guys are all wanting to come. Uh, we made it work for you, the 13th through the 16th. I have my, my church's 50th, um, anniversary is coming on the same dates where we planned it, so I was in a big quandary there. So I'm glad we got to move it.

Yeah, and it—

and we—

this is the first time Lance and I are doing an intensive together, and so there's been a little bit of chaos us getting the ball running on up on time and stuff, and had lots of people interested, and we just thought, you know what, let's not, um go into this, uh, chaotically and with our own anxieties. So talk to some people. It worked better to come out of the new year. So January 13th through 16th.

Mark your date.

If you want to sign up, if you have any questions, go to turningfromanxiety.com, click on the 3-day retreats. You'll see ours up there. Also, March 4th through 5th, 2027, we got the, um, RT Summit in Malibu at Pepperdine. And as I've mentioned before, you can sign up now at restorationtherapysummit.com. We'll put the links in the show notes. RO will have it up on the screen as well. And up until November 1st, it's still early bird signup. We've had quite a few people sign up, which we're actually really excited about. Still working on the website right now. We have about 27 presenters, I think, with the workshops.

Presentations.

Sorry, presentations. But quite a few presenters in there, and then our kind of main stage talks as well. So we're still updating all of that information as we speak. So March 4th and 5th, most people will fly in on the 3rd, I would imagine. So we'll do some kind of loose get-together as well. So anyways, 2 huge announcements.

Yeah, very excited about that, by the way. Definitely sign up early if you can. I mean, this is certainly one of those things that you know want to save that dough, want to get get going. So I imagine this episode will probably be released and there'll only be like a month and a half left. So definitely sign up if you're hearing this episode. You know, make sure you sign up. We want to get everyone in there and not having to pay the full price.

Ay ay ay.

All right, Lance, I'm excited to introduce these 2 people. I actually hopped on a phone call, well, with both of them, but really one of them for a little while a couple of months ago, which was awesome. Just spent some time talking about the work that they're doing, about a new book that they have out, and they live in an awesome part of the country as well. So I want to introduce Gil and Brenda Stewart. Who just put my lighting is really bad here. Who just put mine better? There you go, Lily's Pad.

Yes.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Oh, there we go. The trifecta.

Wait, look at that. Yours looks like it's in fall. Mine's in summer.

But this awesome, awesome couple who does a lot of awesome counseling and ministry and marriage work lives up in Washington. I guess the biggest city we were talking about is Vancouver, Washington, which is closest to Portland. And I just was telling them I dropped my daughter off in Spokane. How far is Spokane from Vancouver, do you think?

It's about a 7.5-hour drive.

Hey, that takes us like halfway across the state of Texas, you know? So anyways, they're part of the RIT community and really excited to welcome you. So welcome to the show, you two.

It's, it's a delight to be with you and just watching you guys banter through the last several months and all the, all the, the episodes. We just are so excited to be with you. And, and Lance, I really don't know you well, but I just gotta say, dude, cowabunga, you know, I just— hang 10 or something.

That's, uh, some surf language. Others are— that would be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Well, you know, I've hung out with all of you.

Hang 10, that would be surf language. Cowabunga would be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Ninja Turtles. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you're here.

I associate it with Snoopy for some reason. I don't know.

So maybe Snoopy may have started it.

Everything with Snoopy.

I'm a Snoopy— I'm a Snoopy fan big time.

So, well, hey, you know, at the summit, you got— you two could sign up for surf lessons with Lance in March, so then you'll learn all the lingo.

That's a possibility. Yeah, because when you guys announced the summit, I think, I think I registered and we were like number 15 or 16. So we're all set. We're dying to get there. So we're looking forward to it.

We're stoked to have you guys.

Yeah, it's awesome. And, you know, Brenda and Gil got to see a little of our back behind the scenes with RO as well. And, you know, it's perfect calm before the storm, right? Behind the scenes here.

Yeah, right. Smooth as glass.

Yes, we don't have any issues or anything. Thanks to RO for the sound.

RO, thank you. Hopefully it's okay.

Hey, let's, let's just start with where I kind of like to start with usually with a guest is, um, tell us a little bit about the work you do and how did you get to RT? What was that journey like for you two?

How did we get started with RT? We'll do that second, but then what did we do first?

Yeah.

We've been working with couples for probably close to 20 years. For the first few years, we really were just marriage coaches and, you know, went through and did that locally for a number of years. Our real passion, because we are a blended family, we had and worked with a lot with couples that were entering into remarriage. And so in a lot of ways, because of our own story, therein lied the passion of working with marriages, remarriages, and also with marriages that were first-time marriages that were contemplating divorce. And it was like, no, no, don't, you know, let's intervene before you make a decision like that. So out of our pain, we really said, Lord, help us not waste our pain. Help us use it for Your glory. And so in many ways, it was like, okay, how How can we really serve and learn from what we've learned? Well, being involved with stepfamily ministry led us to a relationship with Ron Deal, probably close to 24 years ago. And so we've known Ron and Nan for 24 years and just, you know, admired them, seen them go through some of their trials as well. But there was a conference that we were at that was sponsored by Family Life that was the annual summit for blended family ministry leaders. And we were departing the venue because we had been there as speakers and so forth. And Ron and I were talking and we were at the— I still remember it to this day. We were standing at the top of the escalator at the airport in Little Rock, Arkansas. No, hold on a second. It was in another place. I can't remember that part. But Ron kind of looked at me and said, okay, I convinced you to go back to grad school because I went back to grad school when I was in my 50s. I'd been in the insurance business for 30 years, and so I was kind of like, "I don't want to finish my my career as an insurance broker. I want to go do something else." And so Ron kind of gave me a shove with love into going, "Hey, go back and get your degree. You know, you got you got dirt under the fingernails, but you need a little bit of more credibility with a degree." So I went through Multnomah University out here in Portland and got my master's degree in counseling. But back to this this little conversation at the top of the escalator at Little Rock, Arkansas, he says, "Okay, now." Now that you've done that, you need to go sit with Terry Hargrave and get RT under your belt. And that would've been 2018-ish, right before COVID hit. And so I kind of got as much information as I could. COVID happened, we kind of came out of that early, early on. Terry and Sharon were here in Portland, Dr. Shah at, you know, when George Fox was hosting an RT training.

Yeah.

And so that's how I got in, you know. So I, I have to just, you know, thank Ron for giving me a shove with love in the right direction a couple times. And, you know, I always kind of kid around with Ron, kind of like, okay, you, you talked me into when I was in my 50s to go back and get my master's degree. So I'm always kind of shoving him to get his PhD, but he goes, no thanks.

This is, uh, Ron's a big listener of the show, so you can really get after him right now.

Oh, we have dirt on him.

We got dirt, but we love Ron and Nan. And it's such an honor to just have walked through life with them, and they've, they've just been such friends and mentors to us in so many ways. So, we're just very thankful for that. But yeah, there's, there's been a few times where, because of our involvement with Ron and Family Life, uh, we're, you know, we're not on staff with Family Life, but we have done a lot of work with Family Life in conjunction with Ron. So, nice.

Tell it—

tell us a little about— okay, is your blended family of 7 kids, is that correct?

Yes. All young adults now. Well, they're not so young anymore. They're probably your age.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. They're not that old.

Hey, I mean, 51, you know, so—

Oh, no, no, no.

Almost.

Almost. Yeah.

Yeah. Our oldest is 46 and the youngest is almost 36.

Okay.

11 grandkids.

Yeah. That's my age. Rhett's a lot older than me.

So I've kind of said before, Ron is really, really influential, and he just kind of gave you the push into the counseling world in terms of getting— going back to school and then saying, hey, sit with, uh, Terry Hargrave. So did he make the introduction to Terry, or did you just reach out to Terry one day?

No, I just signed up for the RT group, you know, the level 1 training. Yeah, in Portland, you know.

Yep.

19 or, you know, 18 or 19, wherever it was at. And so I went to the RT and I just kind of introduced myself. And after the training was done, I was so excited. Hey, hold on, let's get a picture and send it to Ron. So, you know, I got Terry and Sharon together and had somebody take a picture. We sent it to Ron real quick, just said, hey, look who I met, you know? So it was kind of the connection there. And then a couple of years went by and Terry was back up in Portland for another Level 1 training. So I went again and then took Brenda with me so that she could go through the training. as well as a coach because she went through— well, tell your story a little bit about Western.

Well, yeah, I was at Western Seminary where I got my coaching certification. So, but I think we've been working with couples for over 20 years. So we were at that point where we wanted to get our EIEIO after our name to make us look more legit. But we always said we had dirt under the fingernails, you know, experience because through our pain individually, I don't think either of us thought we would ever be in a remarriage. We were always passionate about marriage, but never on this other side, which was really a head-scratcher. And from that pain, a ministry, Restored and Remarried, was developed. And we wrote a book, curriculum, workbook, podcasts, yeah, teaching series and all that. And then probably about 10 years ago, we kind of rebranded to gillandbrenda.com, which is We, we study or work with all marriages, not just remarriage, but remarriage, you know, it's in our story, it's in our veins. So it'll always be a part of us. But, um, especially with, you know, bringing RT into it, it just, yeah, it makes it a really, not complete package, but it makes it, um, a lot of depth to what we do now.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, the RT training really Kind of finished out, so to say, the, the container, the scaffolding approach that, that I use. And then Brenda comes in as a coach because it's kind of fun working together as a team. As a coach, she always says, oh yeah, you're the empathetic one. And then she comes in with a sledgehammer going, get with it, you know. And it's just really fun to watch her kind of, you know. We had one guy who we were working with, this couple, and they were going to be a remarriage. And he was a former Marine, a very, very— empathy was like, what's that? Anyway, we were working with him and he said this one line and he says, yeah, I don't shed a lot of tears. I'm not real emotional. And I looked across the table and said, dude, that was the wrong thing to say to her. And she went after him.

And it's not a good session unless someone's crying.

Somebody's crying.

Could be me.

Yeah, it was fun.

It's a good cop, bad cop, huh? Approach to counseling.

I think he's froze.

Yeah, I could— oh wait, can you hear us? Are you frozen?

Uh, we were for— you guys were for a second. Yep.

Hey, we're just rolling.

No, I, uh—

That's fine.

I was wondering, Lance, do you and your wife do that ever? And you guys double team in, uh, counseling?

Yeah, we used to do a lot, um, back in the day. We do premarital— we do a premarital, um, thing at our church. We haven't done as much counseling just because, um, that girl's busy. And, um, yeah, yeah. So, but we, we did do it a lot. It was pretty— my wife is really good. We've done a few intensives together. We did this crazy intensive out in, um, Australia.

Hmm.

And she— her experiential techniques are incredible. I've like— her willingness, like, just breaking that, you know, That zone of like you know sitting down and being willing to stand up and you know getting people to move, and she is absolutely excellent. So yeah, it's fun. It was fun. And then there's those awkward moments where she's like, "Well, you know how to do the therapy because you're the trained therapist." I'm like, "No, but you're really good." So so she there there are like a few moments because I had the EIEIO. Next to me, that makes me so much cooler.

Yeah.

But yeah, so yeah. Hey, I was wondering, for today, should we just like land a little bit on like these kids of like— because I'm looking at this book, you know, Terry, I remember having this conversation with Terry about, um, uh, divorce, um, and kind of the effect of, um, children with divorce. And I'll never forget what he said. It like really, um, changed my mind. You know, you know, in marriage we talk about the us-ness, right?

Right.

Um, and, and Terry talks about children That once the divorce has happened, that they are now exiles of the us, that there was a land of us, and now they're no longer. And, and I— that, that, that— I don't know, that image has just stuck with me about thinking about children who have to go through divorce and the experience of divorce and all those things connected to that. And I was thinking about Your book, um, and it's, it's kind of the book for exiles, I would say.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, uh, you know, when we're looking at, um, the dynamics for, for a child that has gone through divorce, um, and you create a new creature called a bullfrog toad, um, I, I'm not gonna allow my brain to, to, to talk about the biological impossibilities around bullfrog toads. But I think about this sweet exile of Lily in this book and the way you kind of talk through the coping, the identity, and the safety is pretty fascinating.

Yeah, that's interesting you bring that up, Lance, because Terry would maybe use the word exile. I would use the term vagabond. Because in essence, they have no home.

Yeah.

And with my kids, especially my oldest son, who is, you know, now 46, an amazing, amazing guy. But when he comes home, he does, you know, because when it was all going down, so to say, between my first wife and I, when he came home, he had been an exchange student through George Fox, matter of fact. And when he came home, the house, it had had— it had disintegrated. And so he— it shook everything in his foundations down to nothing. And that happened in my other kids as well. The key thing, though, that behind Lily's Pads was that story about the frog going between the ponds and the pads and so forth was something that I impromptu came up sharing with my daughter and youngest son. because they were still kind of intact while everything was coming unraveled. And I threw those ideas and scratched them down because as they got older, of course, you know, the story kind of ran its course. And, you know, we split into 2 households and, you know, what was, was. But the idea stuck in the back of my head for years. I mean, years. So I wrote some ideas down, threw the characters down, and then just kind of morphed, threw it in the back of my Bible.

Mm-hmm.

And there it sat for nearly 20 years. And it was still, I would come across it in my devotional time going, oh yeah, this story. It was like, uh, whatever. And then I went through RT training and then it was like, oh wow, the pain that they went through.

Mm-hmm.

And so it was about literally this time last year. When I was ready finally to write the story, um, because I, I didn't really— I don't apologize for the tears. I really actually am kind of glad that they're coming, um, because the book is dedicated to my daughter. And if you read the story, you know, Lily is, is the frog daughter who's the favorite one because she's the only daughter. And between Brenda and I, we have 7 kids, but 6 of them are sons and there's only 1 daughter. And I wrote this story in dedication to my daughter because it was like, you're my favorite daughter because you're my only one. But when I wrote the story, it was like taking the characters and the pain and peace cycle and Uncle Sass and the 3 brothers because she had 3 biological brothers. But it was the first time that I really kind of went, whoa, how did, how did she feel? What was her pain? The exile effect. And it was really crazy, Lance, because I had Terry and I had Dr. Nancy Fergar read it and I had Ron read it and they all go, yeah, this is pretty good. But when I had my daughter read it, she goes, well, you know, Terry and Nancy and Ron all said, yeah, good, good. You know, it made me laugh. It made me chuckle. But my daughter said, Dad, it made me cry. And it was like, oh no, I was petrified. And she said, well, I just kind of let it, let it sit. And, and the longer it sat, I was like, okay, just be quiet, Gil. Wait till she's ready to say something. And so she said finally, Dad, the reason why it made me cry was because maybe in the first time of my life, I finally feel like you see me and you hear me and understand my pain.

Hmm.

And boy, I tell you, we, we had a, we had a big boohoo at that moment because it was like, I've been waiting literally for 20 years to have a breakthrough with my daughter that way.

Yeah.

And so the, you know, the book is, it's, it's for families of all kinds, you know. Yeah, it really plays well in the stepfamily world, let's, you know, face it. But at the same time, there are kids going in and out of circumstances that are different and new and scary? And what is the language that I can use around my pain and peace cycle and emphasize the truth of who I am grounded in the truth of love and safety? And to give a kid that kind of language is so empowering. Recently, we had a little kid who's 5 years old who his grandma read to him. And she reported to us that some kerfuffle was going on in the family. And he had been introduced to Lily's Pads earlier this summer. And so his comment to his parents and his grandparents was, what would Uncle Sass say in this situation?

Yeah.

And it was like, whoa, a 5-year-old got it. So that's kind of the impetus behind Lily's Pads is it's a tool for— and at the back of the book, you know, there's some things written about the pain and peace cycle and restoration therapy. I tried the best I could to illustrate to parents to encourage them Hey, if you can't self-regulate, how do you expect your kid to? You know, so there's a lot of stuff. So I wasn't ready to write the story until probably about a year ago.

Lance is looking at something there, the book. What were you looking at?

I'm flipping through the— going to the characters here. Yeah, I thought you did a pretty good job, like, orienting around the different elements and the pain cycle elements, like, of how they come out and what they look like. So yeah, I thought it was fun.

I— when I was reading through it, it reminded me— I know that Nancy Freegard read through it, and we had Jennifer and Lorenzo on And Lance pulls up his stuffed animals in his office. And I just get the sense that there's a lot of you who really like this play element. That's really important to the work that you two do. Is that accurate to say?

Well, when we're working with couples, the embodiment piece is definitely— because I never know exactly when it's like, okay, we're hitting a wall here. We got to do something. And so it's novel. I think Terry calls it novelty or something like that. And it's kind of like the couple looks at you. And they're going, what are you doing? And inside, I'm terrified because it's like, okay, how is this going to go? But it's like, I know I've got to do something to break this, this, this stuck spot. And so, yeah, we'll, we'll use, you know, pillows or move people around the room. In my office, there's this, this pillar that's kind of holding up the middle of the room.

Sure.

But I get people, I get that in between them and, you know, Recently, I got a couple out into the back driveway out of our back, you know, off my office door is kind of a parking area. So I, I gave each of them a chunk of chalk. And we literally traced out and mapped out using the pain and peace cycle, and then had them move around where they were stuck. And just all kinds of things that actually they diagrammed their pain and peace cycle. I, of course, kind of helped them a little bit. But they were like, Oh, so they could see it, feel it, move around. And that was really impactful just to take them through it. But for them to— for me to see that they were getting it and that that was actually making a transformation in their life, it was really exciting.

Yeah, you actually use that with a couple other couples during the week too. It's like, come to my outside office, let me show you something.

Yeah, so we do that. And, you know, a lot— sometimes I'll use You know, I guess another thing with embodiment is I'll get people up out of the couch and I'll have them hold up, you know, have them stand on the opposite ends of the couch and lean toward each other and then lean out, you know, and, you know, good old turn toward, turn away, you know, that Gottman stuff. But I'll say, could you grab a pillow between the two of you and just hold tension? And I'll use that pillow as their us. And that representing how are we holding onto the us? And sometimes I'll have them jerk it away and then it's like, well, how did that feel? And I'll have them exchange back and forth. And sometimes I'll have them turn around and face the other direction and completely ignore the us because of out of their pain, blame, shame, control, escape. Oh, what are you doing right now? Oh, you're, you're letting go and turning away. What's, what's happening in you? You know? And so it's, it's kind of like impromptu and in the moment. But a lot of those ideas I picked up from just listening to the RT Podcast, which is like, okay, I'm doing the right thing, which is like, okay, this seems a little crazy, but let's go for it.

Yeah. How, how has that experience been? Like, do you feel like, well, yeah, I don't know. I'm just wondering, like, is it RT or listening to other people and maybe getting encouragement from other people? Have you noticed yourself in the work that you do moving towards more type of embodiment stuff? Or is that something you think has always been kind of innate in the work that you've done? Mm-hmm.

We're very much illustrators.

Yeah, as illustrators, it's kind of like part of what we do. You know, when we speak publicly, we use a lot of props. We move around. Because a lot of times, as you guys know as speakers as well, you know, the human brain will only hold on to a speaker's words for maybe, you know, 10% of what they said for a few weeks. But if they see something, they'll remember it for the rest of their life. If they got up and did something, even better. So now we're pairing not only the brain but the kinesthetic as well. And that's kind of what we've tried to do implementing in our speaking and our ministry for years.

Yeah, I, yeah, I'm always wondering, so you— this was tucked back in your Bible for 20 years, just some sketches and ideas?

Yeah.

And what made you finally decide, I'm just going to put this into a book? Like, what's the impetus to, to like, this is going to happen now?

Oh wow, it was kind of like That's a great question, Rhett. It was kind of like, it's time. It's like I had— the scaffolding was now complete. The RT had actually given me more language, and I realized that it could transcend from adult to child. One of the key things that we try to emphasize to the adults is if you can understand yourself and connect with yourself, And have good self-regulation, self-control, then the higher the opportunity is that you're going to be able to connect with your children.

Yeah.

And so it was like, I'm— and when I wrote the story, yeah, it's a children's story, but really in my heart, this is a story for kids of all ages.

Well, I think I just— I love the patience there too, because I think a lot of people were anxious to get something to print or some idea out there. And the fact that it was simmering for 20 years, I think, is great. I just, I love that. And I think that's encouraging for all of us who maybe have some ideas, but maybe it hasn't come to full fruition yet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that.

Yeah, the unfolding. It's like Earth is now ready for this big idea. It's been just sitting there.

That—

did you say Elizabeth Gilbert? Did she write about that in one of her books?

Yeah, I think so. That inspiration and writing, something about magic.

Yeah, yeah, magic. Um, what is it? Oh, come to me. I bet you're looking it up on your computer right now.

Yeah, tell, tell us about, you know, we talked a little before we hopped on, but you know You both had said this is kind of like second career to you, and it seems like hands are kind of wide open in terms of just going in the direction you feel led to go. What are the things that you're excited about right now in terms of the work that you're doing in terms of RT? What are you thinking about? You know, what's some other things that are simmering?

Well, it was funny. Gil was at his annual doctor appointment a few weeks ago, and the doctor was maybe, I don't know, 17. And he's like, so what are you guys doing in retirement? And Gil practically got up out of his seat, and the guy was like, he goes, we don't retire, we are reassigned. So that's kind of in our language, is that we feel like we're just getting started. We're not sure exactly what, but, um, part of the Lily's Pads, um, she has her own dance video and song. And then there's a monthly subscription letter that people can get, their kids can get a letter from Lilly each month, which supports all the artsy stuff in the book. Yeah, it's called Letters from the Pond. So that's a whole nother thing going on, but—

And the component is, is it's not just to kids, it's actually, there's a little thing in there to adults, to the parents as well, to help them continue to understand self-regulation.

Yeah.

Through the use of the RT. Yeah, go ahead.

But the idea about hands being open, long story short, we're looking at going back to Scotland next month to kind of do a reconnaissance trip to possibly spend some more time over there next spring, a couple months, bringing what we've learned through the years to the Glasgow community. not to change anything or come in as experts or anything, but we want to go over there and see what the needs are of the community and how we can support the local staff and introduce RT to them. And so we're going to be there 10 days next month just to kind of get a lay of the land and basically ask the Lord, are we supposed to move forward on this or is this just a pipe dream?

Yeah.

Which is kind of exciting because we don't know. I mean, that's our desire to do it, Because we're, you know, we're trained in so many things, you know, marriage-related and relationship-related. It's like, how can we be a support and train the staff over there? And then so when we leave, they can take it over. So yeah, so it's kind of exciting.

It's—

we'll see.

Right, right.

You don't know unless you show up, right?

Right.

Yeah, yeah, the city of Glasgow, there's a very old university there as well where the church is located. So it's right smack in the middle of a university. university district. And so in a lot of ways, you know, my heart is to meet people in the psych department to, you know, kind of be an ambassador and such, but also with the church.

So for RT.

For RT, and just, you know, with marriage ministry and to support, you know, the youth of Scotland. There's a real spiritual awakening happening for more of the connections that we're building over there in the United Kingdom, which is really pretty cool. So, and with the last name of Stewart. No, I'm not Scottish, but I do have, you know, my roots are there. So in a lot of ways, last year was kind of fun because we went to visit my dead relatives, and that was a lot of fun. How are they doing? But when we were passing through Glasgow, it was like, Lord, what are you doing in this city? You know, show us. And then when we got home, a connection here in Portland was a guy who actually founded this church in Scotland, lives here in Portland, and we got to meet him and he introduced us. So it's like, okay, Lord, there's an open door. So, you know, So that whole idea of, you know, seek, knock, ask, and then, Lord, we expect you to do something. And if it's nothing, then great, we'll go enjoy the view. But if it's really you, then we want to be just really instruments of God that way.

That's awesome. Rhett does a really good Scottish impression.

I don't know where you got that, but—

Oh, come on, give me a little, give me a little.

If you two plant something in Scotland, I will definitely come visit. That would That'd be amazing.

Well, we always kind of chuckle. There's an old Saturday Night Live sketch. Sorry to admit that I watch it, but I just get this great thing when they open the door and off goes this squeaky bagpipe. And then the guy goes, if it's not Scottish, it's crap.

Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah.

What was it about, you know, Lance and I are always curious, like there's something that just clicks with people when they first come across RT. And you had been encouraged by Ron, of course, But was there something that you're like, this is it? I love this model. I love this thing, RT.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in my training at Multnomah University in Portland, when I went back, I really pursued there because there was a gentleman there by the name of Dr. David Manick who had trained under Sue Johnson in EFT. And when I got there, He decided to do something else literally as I was starting the program. I was like, oh my goodness, Lord, did I miss you? But I still stayed in touch with Dr. Manock. His office was down in Salem, Oregon. And he had a way of creating what I would refer as a container. And I really grasped onto that early in my training. And it just, again, Yeah. By, because of just jumping in and do it and trust the Lord at the same time, you know, within the room when you're sitting with people that really helped, uh, give them an idea of here's where we're at, here's where we're going. And, you know, I could, it's kind of what I do literally within the first or second session. And that really helped people going, okay, this is a safe place. Number one, we got to establish safety. And then I got that. Fairly well mastered as best as I could. And then RT came into the play and it was like, oh, this was the missing piece.

Yeah.

Because it was that aspect of this was what was in there, so to say, kind of in their basement, as I would refer to it as, as the substructure of who they are. And that, that pain and peace cycle had been established, you know, what I refer to as kind of their tweener years, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. And I'll tell you, over and over again, when I would sit with adults, I would hear the stories. And when I got that language of the pain and peace cycle, it was like, oh, there we go. And then, hey, there's this peace cycle thing. And people go, I didn't even know that existed. You mean there's truth? And it was like, yeah, the truth of who you are and the truth that, you know, you can actually create through agency some sense of safety in an unsafe world. And that brought hope.

Yeah.

And when that kicked in, it was like, okay, this— so every time, and I think that's one thing I've heard from you guys and other counselors you guys have interviewed, anytime you get lost in the counseling process, this is your plumb line. You can get back there. It's that way, it's kind of like your dial, it's like your sundial. Okay, where are we at again? You know, we got off on a sidetrack, maybe that was good, but we need to get back to what is it that's gonna create the truth of who you are And cause you to be predictable and consistent in your relationships. That really was the missing piece.

That's all I, uh, I, I, I like that language of the plumb line. I think the prophet Amos talks about that plumb line, and it's so easy in therapy just to get disoriented, you know, and just, at least for me, at least to get like Oh yeah, you get sucked up in their pain.

It's like, oh, what's going on? You know, it's a countertransference thing. I mean, I was in a session a few months ago with a couple, remarried couple, and she was in her pain big time. And I knew what was going on. I wish— what was— what she was doing was creating countertransference in me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, hold on a second, because I, I knew what was going on. I didn't say it out loud, and I was looking at her husband So I let her go and we went through the therapeutic process. I had them connect. And at the very end, I said, when you were doing that at the early part of the session, here's what was going on with me. So I shared my pain cycle and my peace cycle simultaneously. And I said, had I not known that, this session would have been a bust.

Yeah.

But if I didn't know that about myself, I would not have counseled and been effective in the moment. That, that I attribute to the Holy Spirit. You know, I've learned, but God is in the that moment. And so I think that's the one thing I would encourage everyone— just trust God in those moments when you feel like you're getting sucked in.

Yeah, Lance, what did you say like a session ago, I think, about when Terry told you to walk through your 4 steps in session or something? That, that was like— that was, that was amazing. That was like the trick, you know? Not really a trick, but just a superpower.

Well, I think, you know, we talk about transference, countertransference, but I think one of the big things is like the block for that is when we recognize our own pain in the room.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and that if I can do— when I do therapy out of my pain, I generally will, you know, my— and I'm a really good performer, so like I can put on a good show, but it doesn't really have that good sticking power. And I end up being exhausted at the end of it. So, you know, but yeah, I remember Terry really encouraging us to really shift things around and trying to find this ability to like, hey, if you're getting lost in the room, use your 4 steps. You have permission. And not that you would ask your client to take care of you, but like you're showing how you take care of yourself.

Exactly.

So yeah, that made a big difference. And I still remember even watching my associates, you know, therapy and watching them do their 4 steps in the room and their ability to harness that, you know, with somebody that, you know, a client that was really going after them at one point to be able to use their 4 steps, you know.

Wow.

That makes a huge difference to be able to say, oh my gosh, I didn't realize I was Acting— I didn't realize I was impacting you that way. And like, yeah, that's, that's you and your pain cycle. When you're in your pain cycle, you turn into a, you know, angry person, you know, and your anger does damage, right? I'm here trying to help you and you're yelling at me. So yeah, like now, like, do you want to work on learning how to regulate yourself in these moments?

Wow, that takes a lot of self-control on your part.

Yeah, well, yeah, it's nice to have practice every day.

May I ask a question of you guys?

Sure.

Yeah.

So, um, are you gonna make him cry?

No, no, no, no, no. I, I just find it fascinating. We did a whole class, an RT class, and we went through the, the pain cycle and then We talked, we introduced the peace cycle and people came back and there was one lady that was just struggling so much of putting her peace cycle together. And I'm, it just seems so easy for people to go to the pain. Why do you think, or how, why is it a challenge for people to enter into their peace cycle?

I think there's a bunch of reasons. What, what goes on inside of you, Rhett, when you think about that big transition point?

Wow. I, you know, I wish I had some brilliant answer.

I don't.

But I just— I just— I don't know. I've always— I mean, Brenda, that's such a good thought. I mean, I've always said, like, we are so good at recognizing our pain, but for us to actually believe the truth about ourselves and to step into that truth, I think it's just really difficult work. Um, for— I, I don't know, for, like, whatever reason. I don't know why that block is. Um, I, I don't, I don't have a good answer, but it's obvious, right, when you're working with someone that we can put up the pain cycle super quick, and we can put up the pain, the peace cycle sometimes in a decent amount, but then a lot of it's just an intellectual belief. Like, yeah, I know these things to be true. I know that I'm loved and valued, but it hasn't really been embodied.

Yeah.

And I, for whatever reason, I just think It takes a long time to, to believe the best about ourselves, to live in that truth, and, um, takes a lot of practice. I guess we have a lot of years of practice of being in pain.

Yeah.

And we just haven't consciously had a lot of years of practice being in our truth. I, I don't know though, but it seems like that is true when you work with people. Like, we just— we're not good at that. Do you, Lance, have any—

I mean, I mean, I think doing reading and polyvagal theory kind of opened my eyes to a little bit more of the dynamics in around, um, that, you know, generally we have people that are like really operating autonomic nervous system. That's kind of that middle ground. That's where the fight or flight comes out. So when you have a lot of clients that are there, um, this logic piece of going like stepping into That, um, uh, the— I get dorsal vagal and, um, ventral vagal confused sometimes, but I'm pretty sure ventral vagal is where we want to go.

Right.

Um, so I think when you're in that autonomic nervous system place, it's a little bit easier to climb that ladder, um, to get to that healthier place. Even if it's cognitively, you can kind of get there, right? But when you have these clients that are way down in that dorsal vagal state where they're barely even existing, it's really hard. Like, you're asking them to climb a ladder without a middle rung.

Hmm.

So it's really hard to get to that next level. They have to almost jump up to it. And I would say that what we're doing— this is why Terry's really emphasized coming up with the the fifth option in RT, which is you know these off ramps to help people to to learn how to navigate those waters, to calm their nervous systems, whether it's the physiological sigh, you know throwing a ball back and forth, you know just any of these things to really soothe the soul. Because once we soothe the soul, then we have a little bit more access to that place.

But when when their body screaming no no no no no no no no no no.

That I think that's one of the reasons we— it gets very difficult. I would also say that some people have just never been there before, right?

Yeah.

You know, like they have this idea that, oh yeah, there's this land, but they're, they're very much in the mode of like, you know, they've convinced themselves that there is no other way out.

Yeah.

And I'm stuck where I am forever. They've, they've, they've almost like taken the sentence their prison sentence, and, and they're, they're lopped onto this prison sentence that I am stuck, um, and this is the way it is. You, um, so, um, you know, which oftentimes has some personality disorders attached to it as well, um, uh, but, um, that, that would be part of it. You know, Terry makes this big deal about like it's hard to do RT with those 5 people, um, and the 5 people Well, particularly couples are, you know, when there's trauma involved, that RT takes a little bit longer. When there are affairs going on, that's really hard to do RT because they're very much entrenched in their pain. When there's addictions that they're locked up into, once again, locked up in their pain. When we have personality disorders that are in the frame. Um, where, you know, once again, that's like really like leaning into childhood trauma where they have this system inside of them where they've been locked for a long time. And then finally, um, the big piece where people get locked up is, um, or where we, you know, we wouldn't even do couples therapy with this couple is if there's domestic violence.

Yeah.

All these things are when safety or identity are extremely threatened. So, um, to have this idea that I am loved or I am lovable in the midst of a horrid storm. It's brutal. So I think it's a tough process. So I don't know if that helps to answer your question.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I think part of it too, what I see is that people, because of the lack of the confidence of who they are, that they feel like, well, if I say these things, about myself. And I always say, we don't want the Jesus Sunday school answer. If Jesus were to look you straight in the eye, to your soul, what would he say about you? I think some people hesitate on that because they think that's prideful. And it's like, that's— but you're missing the gift and the confidence from the Lord. Yes, it is a two-edged sword because you could be so full of yourself, right, that it goes to pride.

Pride, right.

That's a negative. But oh man, if work out of that, of who God's called us to be, we would be unstoppable. But you're right, Lance, it's like it's such a journey and everybody's at a different place. And, um, yeah, it's a journey.

And, Lance, you named a good point going back to SNL, you know, like it does feel like Stuart Smalley, you know, I'm good enough, smart enough, and doggone it, people like me. Like, it's like that. It is so cheesy what we're doing. Now, it's also extremely powerful if we allow it to work.

Oh, oh yeah.

And for us to be able to come into that space with people and say, you know, affirm who God has told them to be. Because how many people in our life, especially our kids, have people in their life telling them the good of them, And it's almost like by not acknowledging that, you're not acknowledging what Christ has done in you. Because if we're supposed to be a reflection of him and we're not owning that, isn't that kind of like disregarding God? That could be a whole other theological conversation, but—

I'm pretty good at that.

I was, I was thinking back about your metaphor of the plumb line, which now I kind of, after listening to Lance, I was thinking about that, you know, the plumb line in RT is this idea of love and trust.

Uh-huh.

And I think if we don't have that container early on, it is— and it's very difficult later in life to, I think, have to live in that truth. I was just thinking, because I was— I'm rereading Richard Rohr's book right now, uh, Falling Upward.

Oh yeah.

And he talks about the 2 containers, first half of life and second half of life. And yeah, as I'm rereading it, I'm thinking of all the language around love and trust that he uses and doesn't use, right, in the book. And that those people who don't have a good container of love and trust early in life have a difficult time in later, later stages of life to, to live out of that truth. And so, um, it just goes to point, I think, Especially since you've got a children's book, in many ways, like how important establishing love and trust in people is from an early age.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So important work.

Well, and that's why our mantra of the book is croak, croak, ribbit, ribbit. And it's kind of like a buzzword for the kids when the kids or adults start to melt down. We can say, let's have a croak, croak, ribbit, ribbit moment, which the reminder is, I am special and treasured. I am valuable and loved. It's okay to give and receive help, and hopping away doesn't fix the problem. If we can teach our kids early on that framework, they won't be, you know, clients in your office 20 years from now because they'll have a better sense of who they are, hopefully.

Yeah.

Right?

You're awesome. You really are.

That's why I'm a coach. I'm not a counselor. I couldn't do what you guys do.

That's—

you guys are amazing.

Well, I have days where I question if I'm doing a good job too, so, you know.

Yeah, but when Rhett does that Scottish accent in therapy—

come on, give it to us, right? Right. Come on, come on.

I mean, I wish Lance was correct and I could even fake a good Scottish accent, but I can't even I can't even in my brain think what that would sound like. I think it reminds me of that old Michael Myers movie, Married an Axe Murderer or something. I think there's a Scottish accent in there.

Yeah.

Move heads now.

What—

as we kind of— we got about 10 more minutes here, but I was just kind of thinking, you know, What, you know, your hands open thinking about this Scotland, Glasgow thing, you know, you got this book out. What are you most excited about right now just in the work you do? Like, what do you two love doing when you're doing the work? What does that look like? Like, who are you working with? Just kind of curious.

Oh, I think, and I so appreciated what you said, Lance, with regards to, you know, Terry's review about, you know, the 5 things that are really hard to work with and having encountered those. Again, the container of being able to step into the pain with people, to empathize, to have compassion, And for them to, so to say, begin to warm up and begin to realize there's an option here. You mean there's actually some kind of an option? And that they actually begin to believe that.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, in some ways it's kind of like, you know, melting or thawing out an iceberg, but through the endurance and the perseverance, I think of Waiting for people to have that moment. And when they do, and you can begin to see a little glimmer of hope, I think that's the most exciting thing. I was working with a couple yesterday, and yesterday actually they graduated. And what they said was just— because I've been with them for, you know, probably about 2 and a half years, and just the background and some of the things that they've encountered, they had done some good work before they sat with me. But when they began to talk about their safety and their peace, even in conflict, and knowing that that's in themselves and that they can help one another once they're settled and become more vulnerable—

Mm-hmm.

Oh, that, that to me is really exciting when a couple can start becoming more vulnerable with one another and grow through their pain, not get stuck in it. And so I think that And that's the ultimate thing that excites me the most. And I think with the RT model, because the peace cycle is such a predominant thing once they get there, because that's really the end in mind, is for the people to walk in peace.

Yeah, no doubt.

What I love is when we have couples come in and they're sitting, you know, 5 feet apart from each other. I'm— because I'm very visual and watching all the physical stuff going on. And when I see them reach out for each other, I just, it's hard for me not to lose it because it's like, okay, there's something happening. They're still stuck, but at least there's some movement toward each other. And that's, and sometimes I'll call that out positively because that needs to be affirmed that they can do this work because they're committed to each other to do it. So.

Yeah, that's the empowering piece.

Yeah.

And to be their biggest cheerleaders, I think we all need that. And in a lot of ways, that's what you guys are to a big community—is you're really cheerleaders and encouraging us all to keep pressing on because this is this is pretty pretty intense work.

Yeah, it is for sure.

Well, I think we like that, Lance. Cowabunga!

It's uh it's why we had to go surfing a lot.

Exactly.

That's why we like meeting with people. It's encouraging for us. Now, I, um, I just want to make sure I know— we're going to put your website in the show notes. We'll mention the book. Is there anything else out there? Because you guys do a lot of stuff that you want people just to know that we can put in the show notes, we can put links to.

killinbrinda.com, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, one thing, right, you're asking what we like to do, and we We love it when we can speak together. So, you know, we're always doing marriage weekend retreats. We were doing intensives for a while, but—

They're intense.

They're intense. Yeah, we're not doing that. We're not offering that anymore. But any kind of weekend retreats or come in as marriage speakers, we love to do it. And now we're doing a parent workshop in a couple of weeks.

Using Lily's Pads.

And I think because What's cool, and I'll brag on us for a minute, is just because of what we've gone through in our relationship, we always say we're getting old. So, it's like we don't have time to mess around. So, we keep short accounts and we're pretty open about talking about almost everything with each other. And we bring that to the stage. And I think one thing we underestimated through the years when we're speaking is people actually see a healthy couple interacting. Are we perfect? No. Do we still have our pain cycles hit each other? Absolutely.

Mostly my pain cycle.

But we want to encourage couples that what a healthy marriage looks like, and it does take work, but it's like there should be joy in your marriage. This is my best friend. Yeah, sometimes we treat our best friends outside of our marriage better than our spouses.

I'm crying. You're making me cry.

But what the point is, is that it's When we're on stage, we're real and we don't really sugarcoat anything. Maybe that's part of our Northwest, Pacific Northwest vibe too. But we go straight at whatever the challenge is and work through it and help couples do that too.

So that's cool. So you guys are looking for another marriage speaker for your church or for something else like that? Yeah, check out Yeah, Gil and Brenda. Brenda, Brenda and Gil.

Gil and Brenda. Gilandbrenda.com. Yeah, and then go first. We'll, we'll put all the show notes up in, in the links. You people know where to find them at Substack and Spotify and Apple. And, um, we look forward to seeing you guys in person in March at Pepperdine.

Won't be long. Super excited.

Yeah, thanks for joining us, guys.

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. It's been a delight. Very big delight. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Thanks. Cheers, guys.