Season 2 | Episode 81 | RT, trains and The Little Engine that Could with Therapist Mary Lee Evans

Lance, what's going on?

Bro, what is up, Rhett? What's, what's the haps? I hear, uh, some things are not going so well in the house.

I was just saying earlier, I feel like everything's breaking down in the house.

Oof.

It's the most expensive time in life right now, it feels like, with daughter in private college and, uh, lots of things going on. So, and it's the dog days of summer. It's supposed to be 107 today, probably goes up to 110, like 80% humidity, which isn't really southern humidity like our guest is probably used to, but it's still humid here. So Wow.

I won't tell you what it's like here because—

Yeah, please don't.

You know, San Diego, it's just— I'd hate to make you feel bad.

I don't think— I have no recollection of ever looking at the weather or a weather app my entire time living in Southern California.

Seriously.

I mean, Pasadena gets hot.

I know, but I, I just— that was not a thing. So, no. All right, let's, let's hard pivot to our announcements.

Okay, what do we got going, Rhett?

All right, number one, everyone knows this, Restoration Therapy Summit in Malibu.

So good.

March 4th and 5th. So that's a Thursday, Friday, all day, like 9 to 5, lots of workshops. And for people who are asking, the website will be updated here hopefully in the next couple of weeks. Uh, it's a lot of moving pieces. We have over, I think right now, 23 different 23 different presenting, uh, like workshops that people can sign up for. So we're still uploading all of that as we're finishing those details. Lots of people will fly in early, obviously, so we'll probably plan some activity on the 3rd.

It's gonna be hopping, man.

Probably in Malibu, I would, I would imagine, so we can all kind of gather. So anyways, sign up early. Early bird is still through November 1st. It's a great deal. And, um, as I've already said, we have quite a few signups already. We expect to sell out. We're hoping to sell out around 300 people probably. So sign up now. Second announcement, you and I are doing our first together anxiety intensive.

That's right.

And it's on a beach house in Encinitas, California, September 23rd through 26th.

Yeah, man. And it's for, um, male ministry leaders or pastors. Um, we, we're getting some spots full. We do have some scholarships. So, man, if you go to a church and you're like, my pastor needs to know about restoration therapy, you should send them to the Turning from Anxiety. You're like, hey, you know what, you should go out to California hang out with these, um, 2 guys, Lance and Rhett, or Rhett and Lance. Rhett and Lance sounds way better than Lance and Rhett. Um, and, uh, come and get their lives changed. Like, yeah, this Turning from Anxiety thing that has come around, it is absolutely powerful.

Yeah, and I, as I've said before, it's, uh, it's not just helping people identify their own anxiety, but I think what Especially since we're working with ministry leaders. And again, that could be a pastor, you could be on staff somewhere, missionary, some type of ministry role. We're wanting to talk about how you navigate anxiety and anxious systems like church organizations, things like that, how you use the Pain and Peace Cycle, the 4 steps for the non-anxious presence that Edwin Friedman talks about. Um, so we're excited about that. The website is turningfromanxiety.com. You just go up to, um, the link there of the stuff and you'll see Lance and I's intensive.

So yes. And there's probably— I bet you right now, knowing RO, he probably has a little thingy for us right now.

Yeah, there's probably a little graphic going across.

So yeah, thanks, RO, you're the best.

And I just remind people, there's always show notes. This, this podcast posts at Spotify, at Apple, Um, iTunes, and then it posts on YouTube and on our Substack. So you can track down the show notes in any of those places.

Um, what's your favorite place to go to, Rhett, when you—

I, I listen to everything on Spotify, to be honest with you.

Okay, you're a Spotifier.

Yeah, because Spotify does video too. So if I want to watch video, I just watch it on my phone. Um, I don't like to— I, because I listen to things when I'm working out or running or driving around. I don't like to sit and watch a video screen. So that's Spotify is mine. What about you?

I also do the Spotify. However, I do like YouTube as well. I am like, I do a little bit like I'm Mr. Fix-It around the house, so I do lean on the YouTube a lot.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think that's my go-to. But I think it's always nice when people go on Spotify and they do like a little like and we've had comments. I feel like we get the most comments on our Um, Spotify, don't you think?

Yeah, and I think most people listen probably on iTunes still when you look at the numbers of podcasts. But yeah, um, Kayvon comments a lot on our Substack, our, our guest a couple episodes ago.

So he's great.

He's great. All right, this is episode 81. We're cruising along, and I'm gonna let you introduce our awesome guest today because you guys have the connections through grad school, and you know more of her and her story as you, uh, we launch into this episode today.

So this is a pretty exciting one for me today because this is one of the people in our community that I've known the longest. Um, and, um, I, so I went to Fuller, um, back in 2003 and got my M.Div. Um, and while I was there, one of my, um, really close friends from college, Dave Flye, Um, came out. And, um, you know, at Fuller we do these like crazy things. There's like a— what, it's flat— they do this flag football thing. And, um, and then I started like a whole like taking people to go surfing on Saturdays and whenever I could in the mornings do dog patrol. Um, uh, but Mary Lee, our guest today, was at Fuller the same time I was, and we both witnessed The, um, the, the coming together of David and Kristen Flye, um, who are really close friends of, of, uh, both of ours. And, um, so, and I'm sure they listen to the show all the time. But, um, so shout out to you, Dave, Dave and Kristen. We love you. Your kids, your kids are the best though. They're super sweet. Um, but, uh, yeah, uh, Mary Lee, uh, is, um, she's done a lot with restoration therapy over the years. Um, she's kind of like shown up at a lot of the events. We're like, oh, hey, Mary Lee! Hey, hey! Oh, it's Mary Lee!

Hey!

Um, but, uh, she practices in Florence, South Cackalacky, also known as South Carolina. Um, do they say Cackalacky where, or is that just like a Virginia thing?

I hear it every once in a while. Okay, not a whole lot, but yeah.

Virginians call any Carolina Cackalacky for some reason. I don't even know why.

I don't know why.

But, uh, she's got a private practice in Florence, South Carolina. If you're trying to navigate where that is, think of, um, uh, Myrtle Beach, right? Um, and, uh, famous Myrtle Beach, and go 1 hour east. Um, and then think of Sumter. Maybe you know Sumter. It's right in there. So, you know, we can, we can triangulate you there and somehow, but it's a beautiful area. Um, there's some really cool art things that are going on there. Uh, I saw, and there's also a really pretty red church, red and white church, I believe.

Yeah, there is.

Okay.

I don't know the name of the church.

I don't either.

I've driven by it many a time.

Okay, France is obviously pulling up Google Images or something.

I did. I was like, I should probably educate myself on Florence. It's pretty funny, like the Carol— like, like there's like Rome, Georgia, you know, and then, you know, Florence, South Carolina. Like, like, oh, I live in Florence. Like you can like have like, uh, an Italian vibe to it.

That's right.

That's right.

Yes. Yes.

Welcome to the show.

Well, thank you. It's great to be here. I've really loved watching, listening to y'all, and feel like I can just hang out with you after watching so many episodes. So thank you for having me.

Mary Lee, where did we meet in person?

So we met in person. It's a part of my RT origins. Okay.

All right. Right into it.

I was thinking it through because I was like, I'm sure they're gonna ask.

Because I'm like, I know, I know her. And I know we met in person. I just can't remember which location it was at.

Yeah, we did. We met at level— our level 1 training.

Oh, seriously?

Yes.

Oh my gosh. At Fuller.

Well, we did level 1 and level 2 together.

Yeah, but was it— wasn't there a part of it at Fuller with Terry?

Yes.

Yes, in that little room, like we sat around in chairs.

Yes, that was level 2.

Okay, gosh, seriously, that far back?

Yeah, I know, that was a long time ago.

I think it was 2014, I think.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I couldn't remember if it was '14 or '15.

Because I have a pretty good memory, but I, I was trying to— I, at times, I'm trying to remember my early trainings and thinking, who was in my trainings? Because I think because I didn't live in Pasadena and wasn't connected to Fuller at the time Terry was there, I didn't have— I didn't know a lot of people. I felt really new there. So that's wild. So we did Level 1 and Level 2?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, we did.

And look at us now.

I know, look. And, and yeah, so I was at Fuller pre-Terry also. So except I guess that's where Because my stay at Fuller was shorter than Lance's, so I was there till 2005.

So wait, where you were MFT, uh, what years?

2003 to, um, 2005.

Okay, so I literally— yeah, I finished my M.Div. in '03, took 2 years off, and came back in '05. So you were—

She was the gap. She was the bridge to your gap.

Yeah, I think my classmate, my good friend Todd Sandell was probably in that program.

I was actually his TA.

Oh, okay.

I remember now. Yeah, anyway, I was trying to make all these connections. I was like, yes, I remember Todd.

Okay, that's awesome. Well, I'm glad to know that. So you came at it via Fuller but pre-Terry being there. And then we ended up in Level 1 and Level 2 together.

Yes, because when I was at Fuller, I don't remember what year it was, but there was a symposium. Yeah, or that— the year of the symposium, Terry came and did the Families of Forgiveness. And that really stuck with me. I, I was— I remember, like, that's the first time I knew of Dr. Terry Hargrave. And I was— I really connected with the forgiveness model. And then fast forward, you know, then I graduated, went into some community mental health for a few years, then opened a practice. And I was a few years into the practice and was just trying to make everything connect and was struggling some with my different models. And— I don't know, I don't know why, but one day I was looking through my spam folder, which I never do. I don't know why I was doing it, but I was going through it and I saw Dr. Terry Hargrave. And it was— I must have gotten on some list because of the symposium. But it was about him.

Oh.

It was about the Restoration Therapy Purple Book. So I was reading the emails like, oh my gosh, this is, this is This— I need to know more. So, I got the book, started reading it, and then was diving into figuring out more about RT and then found my way to Level 1. And that's when I dove in the deep end.

Was the symposium— was that the thing in the fall— in the spring of like '07 before Terry comes on staff where they So he comes and does like a lecture and like teaches and stuff.

It would have been— well, I, when I was there, it was 2005.

But it was actually while you were a student.

Yeah, as well as a student. And so it was, yeah, whatever the symposium theme that year, the speaker was Terry.

Is Terry's Fuller debut?

Yeah, well, that's what I wondered.

I was like, was that his, his kind of entry in where they're like, yes, I mean, I'm sure he had others, but that, that's the, that's the one when I hear about, like, you know, because, you know, one day we're gonna write a history book on the, uh, story of, uh, the Hargraves and, um, the, the how, how restoration therapy came into life. Um, and there'll be a story of Terry's appearance at that, uh, 2005 Fuller Psychology Integration Symposium and how he just blew everybody's minds on his talk on forgiveness.

He did. He did. He put words to things that were circling in my head that I was like, you, you're saying what I am trying to put together. But yeah.

Yeah.

So you have this 9-year gap essentially between graduating And then Level 1 training, right?

Yes, yes, yes. So I was really hungry for it because that's where I was. Like, at Fuller, I, um, you know, took pieces of things. I did a lot of EFT with Jim Furrow at Fuller, and he's great.

Yeah, he's awesome.

And so I love so much about EFT, but I couldn't— I kept running into difficulties and seeing it through. So there was that piece. And actually, I listened to Kayvon.

Yes.

I was listening to Kayvon, and he mentioned Jean Baker Miller, which I have not heard her name in so long, but that I learned about her at Fuller in one of my electives, I think in a psychology class. But that, that also caught me because the— there's this concept of mutual— mutuality, mutual empathy, but also the power. Well, there was a lot about it. I honestly can't remember a lot of it now, but it really connected with me. But still, I couldn't quite put it together in a way where I felt structured and able to carry through the sessions like I, I was wanting to. And, um, And that's what was so appealing. Well, that was one of the key pieces that was so appealing about RT is that it helped map out, it gave me a map for therapy where I can always know where I am and be organized and directive. And that was, I really needed that. So that, that was easy to step into pretty quickly. And In practice, which was a big hook.

Love it.

While you were talking, I pulled up an old email from you on February of 2015 asking a question about RT. And we— I, man, see, my memory is so good sometimes and so horrible sometimes. But it says that the training was in Atlanta. We had a training in Atlanta. Okay.

See, that was the level 1.

Okay, see, I just totally block stuff and rearrange things in my memory of other things being in different locations, which I don't know what that says about me as a therapist, but it says you're human.

It does. It does.

Have you guys seen like the, the research on memory? You guys ever talk about this? One of my favorite conversations in, um, couples therapy is to tell people to quit arguing about what really happened because memory is really unreliable. Like in court, they don't accept eyewitness testimony that well because our memory is just so prone to failure. And oftentimes we remember like the most intense part of a scene and then how it wrapped up.

Okay.

But our brain makes up the rest.

Well, that's one thing I, again, that I love about RT, because I'm also, I am not good with holding on to a lot of this content of stories. Like, I just, I can mix things up really easily. And so RT helps me with that, where it's like, I actually don't have to get hung up on that. I can focus on the sequencing of the pain, and I can always enlist their help. Where it's like, okay, wait, let me make sure I have this straight. This happened, but, but then I don't even have to focus so much on that to get what— okay, well, what was that primary emotion? What was that reactivity? But so yeah, all that to say, it's really helpful because I'm not good at remembering a lot of stories myself. So—

No, I mean, I don't even— I don't usually look up old emails, but you were actually expressing that in the email about trying to be present with client and their stories and how like the pain cycle was helpful in doing that. And then, Lance, get this, uh, she, she met Heather in 2016 when I spoke at the RT Summit because you, you sent a nice email about that. My wife— that's my wife Heather.

Okay, now I have no recollection.

Yeah, see?

Yeah, I have an email right in front. You're like, it was so good to meet you and Heather at the conference.

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Wait, that was the first summit?

Yeah, that was the first, like, kind of, I guess, official, official summit. It was October.

Yeah, at Pepperdine.

At Pepperdine, 2016, when I spoke on, like, anxiety.

You spoke on anxiety. I remember that. Yeah.

Also, also going to be in the, um, history of restoration therapy, uh, Rhett Smith's debut, um, when he came in the room and he talked on, um, Uh, anxiety. And he had all these, uh, fascinating stories. Um, it's the reason I have a Rubik's Cube in my office to this day. Um, and, um, I was a big ping pong player back in the day, and like, you know, so he— so it was like, oh, Rhett gave me permission to have like toys in my office.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

Well, I didn't mean to get you guys off track, and Especially away from our guest. But I was just— when she brought up the old thing, it is funny how the RT community, how we're connected, and stuff goes pretty far back. And even as good of memories as we have, like, we, we forget some stuff.

We do.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's wild.

It is. I do remember at Level 1, I mean, I guess I'd read the book, but I remember almost like the aha moment of putting my pain cycle on paper. And really, I think that's where it's seeing, okay, not only is this helpful for organizing with therapy, but this is— whoa, this is revealing what I— again, what I haven't been able to put words to for so long, but yet it makes so much sense. It's like, ah, I see it, my pain, it's everywhere.

Is that what hooked— like Lance talks about getting hooked by that. Is that what, like, seeing that drew you in? You're like, okay, RT is the thing for you?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really think it was the combo of how deeply it speaks to kind of the human processes of dealing with pain, and then personally how it helped me put words to things in my life that I'd worked on, you know, I'd been in therapy, done all my work, done Fuller grad school, but it's like, ah, this is really giving me words to sequence. And then not only that, but work through it. But yeah, so personally how it moved me, and then also as a therapist and seeing, okay, This really helps me have purpose and direction in effective therapy.

What do you—

so it's been about 12 years, right, since you first kind of launched into like the training?

Yeah.

You've been practicing RT for 12 years, let's say.

What do you—

I'm like curious about— this is where you just have to be honest with yourself. What do you think you're really good at? when it comes to the RT model? Like, it just feels natural to you, you're really good in the room with it. And then what's one part of RT where you find yourself just like still struggling at times? You know, where there's— you have some days you're like, ah, this is just not— it's not clicking for me, or I'm having a hard time making sense. Because I have this— I don't know, I just have this feeling, you know, that we're always working on RT.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

And there's things that we are good at and some things we're not good at, and we're always trying to grow. I'm kind of curious, 12 years into it, what does that look like for you?

Good question. And what comes to my mind is it actually depends on the day. Like, if I'm regulated, yeah, I'm like, oh, I'm good at this, I've got this.

Yeah.

But if I'm having a rough day, I'm like, Dang. Like, standing up in the room and doing the experiential work when I'm, you know, just in my head with things or have stuff outside going on, then it's really, I have to do my 4 steps right now. Like, how do I show up well? So I think that really, I— When I'm regulated, I think I'm much better at doing the experiential work. And I'm more, I think, just more courageous in, yeah, in stepping out. And I also find, I think this is more a newer thing, the more I'm regulated, is that I am really working on empowering the client a lot more so that I'm not Because I think when I'm in my performance mode, I'm like, oh, I have to figure this out and decide on the best scenario. But when I'm regulated, it's like, oh, actually, no, they are— they actually are more help. They, they have great ideas. So I can maybe start into some exercise, but really hand it over to them to make it their own, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

So I think I've gotten better at that, which, but again, that's when I'm regulated. If I'm dysregulated, I can get impatient, actually. I find I get—

Yes.

I really have to— it's like my, the control part of me where I can get critical sometimes and like antsy to like, come on, don't you get it? And I'll get pushy. And so I have to— but I think in that, I'll— I really— I will not want to listen to their content. Like, I— because I still need a little bit to go on, generally speaking. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I really do need to be— to hear a little bit more and give them a little more space before... We are off on the races with the 4 steps. But sometimes I do get impatient, and I have to slow myself down and remember, I've got something. I've actually got a really good thing to give them. But I can't make them take it. Like, it's their choice.

No.

It's their choice whether they take it. So I don't have to be forceful. I can I can, I can really— and sometimes I'm just like, okay, I can slow down and just, okay, here's a choice. You can go this way or this way.

Um, it's really interesting, right?

Yeah.

Are—

yeah, like, because we're, we're like, part of our, our, our stuff that as RT therapists is we're supposed to interrupt our people regularly, um, to check in like, oh, so I'm hearing this, is this you? And is that that part of it, like, where we're supposed to kind of You know, what is it, every 5 to 6 minutes we're supposed to make sure they're regulated. And there's this other element where, you know, we have to lean into our own regulation, right?

Yeah.

So, like, it's kind of this, like, high alert, but also ease of moving in. So, it's like a tightrope walk in a way of what Yeah. And yeah, I find that if I'm— I can be lax on my, like, on both of those sometimes, where sometimes I'm like, ah, this guy's just— they just want to tell their story. They're just going to be mad the whole session, so I'm going to let them rant, you know, which would be me both in my pain cycle and not being able to be present. not being, um, true to the model. Or if I regulate myself and I stop to kind of like, you know, lean into my truth, I find that my, my therapy just goes up so much more. Um, and, and my ability to be courageous, like to, to ask to do the crazy thing, you know, which, you know, I have— I've created that. I create that expectation when they come in the room. But Man, it can be difficult. So I'm with you in that.

Yeah.

What helps you to self-regulate?

What helps me self-regulate? Yeah. Well, the 4 steps. So I'm actually getting more and more where I will do my 4 steps in the room out loud.

Nice.

Which it's like, yeah, but I'll do it in kind of, you know, balanced form where it's like, you know, I find myself feeling like a real— like kind of helpless right now. And normally I try to convince you that I have got— you know, I'll try to force something on you, but I realize I do have something, but I I can't force you to take it, but here's some options. So I find I'll do my 4 steps in some form or fashion, and that really helps me slow down.

Mm-hmm.

But another thing I find sometimes I will stand up for my own sake.

Mm-hmm.

Like, yes, I'll stand up to try to take the client somewhere, but I also, if I need, what if I'm getting distracted or if I, if something's going on in me where, yeah, I need to regulate, sometimes standing up, I have a bowl of rocks. I'll walk over to my bowl of rocks, grab some, make it applicable to something that we're doing. But I will find more and more, like, if I can engage my body in some way, it helps me remind myself that I can stay in this. I can hopefully find a way to offer help.

That's good.

Yeah, there's— yeah. What about y'all? Whether— because there's, there's a lot of options, I find.

I'm excited to see this bowl of rocks sometime. We gotta check it out.

Oh, it's just like a glass bowl of rocks. It's not too exciting.

Well, I, I was thinking you actually kind of— I wasn't expecting you to give the answer of emotional regulation, but then I'm like, well, that makes sense. Yeah, like as the core foundational piece, and maybe why they named the new— the summit in March Regulate. You know, why would we do that? Yeah, that at the core of us showing up in therapy, maybe what's determined if we're successful or not successful is often our ability to emotionally regulate ourselves in the room. But it made me thinking how often I must be emotionally dysregulated because I have days where I'm just like, that didn't go well, or I could have done this differently. So like you, I'm I'm all about the 4 steps. I practice them religiously throughout the day. Breathing a lot. I find myself in the chair just like breathing throughout a session because I notice I'm holding my breath. Those are 2 things I do internally a lot in therapy, or I'll do them externally. I'll say it out loud with the client, or they'll see me breathe. I'll practice with them. Outside though, It's still the 4 steps. And then for me, it's like moving my body. I know Lance likes to go surf. I like to run. I need to do something physical in order to kind of show up in the office that day emotionally regulated. And if I— I can miss a day here and there, but if I kind of get out of a rhythm, I feel really dysregulated.

Yeah, physical exercise for me is really big too. Running and swimming. Kind of my go-tos.

Nice.

Um, yeah.

What about you, Lance?

So I, like, I do the same, like, 4 steps with my clients as well. Um, that was a trick Terry taught me and made a huge difference. Um, uh, and I also— I, I actually don't breathe in sessions sometimes. I should probably try that out. Um, it's very necessary for life. It really is. But, uh, um, one thing I do in my— have in my office is I have like people— like my wife hates my office because it is like trinket, like, circus all over, right? It's really funny because every single little thing in my office has a story, and some of those stories are for my clients. And some of those stories are for me. And so I like to put up the things behind my clients, the things that keep me regulated. So I have like a picture of my wife with our first dog, and I can remember that moment. She's sitting in La Jolla and like it just puts me at ease. And then I have this really cool thing that my dad built for me with aircraft instruments and reminding me, like, check your instruments, Lance, check your instruments. Like, get yourself, get yourself regulated, right the plane, you know, quit, you know, you don't have to trust your gut. Like, it's in fact your guts will mess you up a lot of times. So just check your instruments, get yourself regulated. But yeah, if you— it's really funny when people go in my office, they get really overwhelmed because I have so much junk in there. But everything means something to me. So. It helps out. And I'll actually grab the objects sometimes because I'm struggling so much, you know. So I'll like— I had this one thing my grandfather made at NASA years ago, and it's like this like goofy ball with a, with a square around it. And like, I'll just like pick it up and I'll put it in my hand. I'll just twist, like spin it around. I'll just think about— His hands and how he had such a deft touch that he could feel the aircraft wing and he could find every little dimple, every little piece that was off. And it just reminds me, slow down, feel the situation out, Lance. There's something here. Just take your time. So that was really helpful to me. Sorry, it's a long explanation, but— No, it's great. That's, that's what I have.

Yeah, we'll have to post a picture of that, um, airplane thing because it is pretty cool that your dad built, you know. Yeah, in terms of that, I like it. So, um, go ahead, Mary Lee, what are you gonna say?

I was gonna say like the, the sensory experience of things, like having something to touch, something to see, all of that does help. Well, that helps me. Or, you know, having— well, not that there's not music playing, but sometimes having a song going that the client connects with. Or, um, but the— like, back to the rocks, it's like the rocks I'll collect when I'm different places, and that'll— those will just go in there. But yeah, there's the, the touch is, um— oh yeah, all the sensory experience of holding on to the truth.

Yeah.

Helps. Like, oh yeah, okay, I can find my way through this.

Totally.

Yeah. One of the things, you know, because I know you've listened before, we love to hear like if there's a, I don't know, a favorite intervention you've been working on or you're using in the room a lot in terms of the work that you do. Is there something that you've been really excited about?

I'd say there are things I'm trying to incorporate more.

Okay.

That I'm learning. Well, let's see, actually, well, one thing I find really helpful as I've gotten to know stop, turn, slow, that is really helpful. I find, and I'm wondering how, when y'all incorporate it, when do you, when in the therapy you find you Introduce it? Because I, for me, I'll do it sometimes first thing.

Yep.

And if it's, if in particular, if anxiety is really high, and sometimes it'll be later on, but it seems to help with, well, it helps with, with stopping the anxiety, but also the starting to introduce the truth as well with getting familiar with using it to regulate. But with Stop, Turn, Slow, I've found that there is a metaphor that I've used that is helpful for some, where it's— I use a train analogy where— I mean, I'm not terribly familiar with trains. My son used to play with them. I guess I— but I think about a train, like, that's, like, you know, fast speeding down the track, and that, that's, you know, in that anxious place, we're just barreling down. Yes.

Runaway train.

Yeah, it's like runaway train. Yes. But we've got to stop this somehow. So it's like, think of that, like the brakes lock, like the wheels locking, and it's like squealing to a stop. It's like, that's the stop of, like, engaging the body, getting it to, like, just really attune to, we got to stop this now. And then it's like it squeals to a stop right at a turntable at a train station. And again, this is— this comes from my Thomas the Train days long ago, where it stops and it then turns to a different track. So it's like, okay, let's name this track.

Are those called the switches?

Maybe. I have no idea. The switches. Switches. So naming, okay, this is the, this is the track I'm on that's really not helpful. It's a trap. I can see that. Now I'm going to turn. I'm on a different track. This is a track of the truth. Okay, let's name that. Let's call it out. Let's claim it. Like, this is the track we're determining that we're going to go on now. So we're on it. Let's, let's name it. You take some time to name it. And then the slow is where you think of a train kind of slowly churning back, starting down a new track, that it takes time. It's not something you can just rate. This isn't a speed train. This is what a locomotive train, it's going to churn away. And that's the, the slow value statements of oneself and then moving into an action. I found that to be really helpful. And clients are usually like, when we get to the slow particularly, it's like, yeah, that is so hard. I can't do that. It's like, well, it's just gonna be slow. So keep going. You got this. But that's, that's been one I've been using more and more.

That's so good. It makes me think of that old Uh, is it Thomas the Train who's trying to get up the hill?

Oh no, that's— oh yeah, I know, that's The Little Engine That Could.

Yeah, The Little Engine That Could.

Yeah.

Yes.

And, and like, you could—

like, it's slow, you're like, I think I can, I think I can, I think I can. Oh my gosh, I hadn't even thought of that.

Yes, it's kind of fun. I could see that. That'd be interesting. Like, you know, hey man, that hill is huge, you gotta get up. But man, if you go down this other train track, we know where this one goes.

The—

it's out. You're gonna go right down the hill. Like, yep, hey, let's try this other track out. Let's switch. Let's turn the thinking. That's good. I like that.

Yeah, so that one's been helpful. And we'll usually stand— like, I find it helpful to stand up to do stop, turn slow, and then they'll kind of get into it, um, as they're— and then they'll start doing it each time. It's like It's like, great, you can turn, recognize, turn a different direction.

You know what would be fun is if you like added in a, um, like an auditory response to help them be like, woo woo! Would that help you, Rhett, or no? Rhett, you don't seem like you, you're a believer.

No, I— that brought up good memories. I mean, I had that book was— I read that every night as a little boy. My grandparents. Yeah.

I did that. You mean as a little boy?

Yeah, yeah, The Little Engine That Could. And I think we bought a copy, a new one, when my kids were little. And I was just thinking of a dad I was listening to the other day talk about— there's this big steam engine going across the country called Big Boy. It was built, I think, during World War II, maybe. It's been restored. and it goes on tours across the country, and it's— it has a huge following on YouTube, and people go out to towns to watch Big Boy coming through town. And so—

Really?

Yeah, yeah. And it runs on, um, it's been— it, it burns fuel now instead of coal, but it's really fascinating. And I just— anyways, I just— I don't know, that my brain went to that. So that's a powerful metaphor of this train Going down this track of truth is what you called it. And, um, I don't know, sometimes it slows down, you know, and, and gets off track like you said. I think it's awesome. I like— you might have to get some trains. You should get like a big train track for your office.

Like, have it travel around.

Yeah, like it goes above their heads, like over the mountains and down through the— when session's over, you pull the horn.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's over.

We're done.

Showing up with like a conductor hat.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Oh, another therapeutic role. I like that.

Yeah, totally. I, um, you know, thinking of history though, Stop, Turn, Slow, when Terry like kind of put that together at the first anxiety, um, pilot intensive You know, a lot of this comes out of Stephanie, Stephanie Lieben's idea at pre-summit where she talked about—

At the RT Dialogue.

The RT Dialogue.

Which is the name of our podcast.

Yeah, which I was not at then. Um, but she talked about your body getting so overwhelmed that you have to get— you have to exit the freeway. You got to get off. You have to get off. And, and I think that's how Terry kind of started to think about this idea of just stopping. Whether it's in the tracks or just exiting off a freeway to slow down. So that's cool. I like that you do that. I use it a lot early on too, even before I really have a person's pain and peace cycle up, because stopping is easy, I think, and just identify, like, let's just breathe.

Yeah.

What are you feeling right now? Even if we don't have all the language for it. And then helping them with the turn, even the truth. I think people come in with some language around truth, even though we haven't done the pain and peace cycle. cycle yet. We can, like, I feel like we can play around with that a little bit as a, as a good, as a good working tool in the beginning of therapy. Um, and I'm, I'm actually just even more concerned that they stop and just breathe and intervene on the, on the ruminating and everything else, even if we can't get the other stuff done yet.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Sometimes, sometimes we'll just start with the breathing and save The rest of it, we're like, this is a teaser for what's to come. But yeah, go ahead and teach the breathing to aid it initially.

Lance and I have— I've texted him a bunch about this and a couple other people, because the STOP is the breathe and calling out the trap. And I think some people, they'll call it the trap first. They'll have the person identify the trap and then practice their breathing. I think Lance does it that way. Is that— Correct? Or are they just kind of melded together?

I like to stop them. Like, just, like, just stop, you know? Like, let's, let's do our stop, like physiological sigh, like play with a whatever, you know? Let's, let's get you stopped.

OK.

Now name the trap. OK, let's turn now. Like, that's—

OK.

So stop is Just stop and breathe. And part of that stop is name the trap.

Yeah. And then try— And like, you, you almost externalize the trap, you know? I see you over there. Yeah, I know which route you take me down, trap. I feel unsafe. Yep, there it is. Unsafe. And it's coming at me like I'm— I— it's a huge threat. Okay, all right, so I'm gonna choose to get on this track. I'm gonna use your, your language, Mary, Mary Lee, and, um, I'm gonna go down this track. And I feel like the, the track that says that I think I can will work. Yeah.

Um, dang, that's a good one. Come on, some of these children's books, right? They're just speaking truth into kids and we don't even realize it.

Yeah, for sure.

Wow. So that's something you brought into the room you've been working on. What, what is it, um, I'm curious too, just, it doesn't have to be RT related, but as you think about your work as a therapist, anything really exciting for you or areas that you're kind of venturing into that has like breathed life into the work that you're pursuing? It could be a new It could be something else adjacent to RT or something else completely different or something you're reading.

Well, I'll kind of go down a different track to carry on with it.

Yeah, different track.

I think just speaking on—

Hey!

The recent years with RT have— well, the recent years of my life have required me to Figure out all the more how to show up authentically in the room. So it's been about just over 5 years that I've been divorced.

Mm-hmm.

And so dealing with the turmoil of that process and really coming to terms with my own sense of identity, my sense of safety through that, and being able To show up, to be able to say in a marriage and therapy world that, yes, I'm divorced. It was a right. It was the right thing for me, even though it was really hard. It was the right— it was right. Sometimes it's right to end relationships. And as hard as it was, it was right. And not that I'm for divorce at all. But just sometimes it is the way to go. Um, I think being able to do my work around that, um, it's just made me think a lot about how as therapists we, we do— like, we have identity spirals, we have things, trauma that happens in, in the process of trying to be a therapist. Oh yeah. And still having to find our way. Like, how am I going to show up today in the midst of how I'm— the turmoil I'm in? And so I think I've had to slow myself down.

Like, I was—

I actually had done a little bit of help with training and with RT and just thought, you know what, I need— I just can— slow my pace down and focus on— really, it's good to be able to take care of myself and my family and adjust to significant changes and, um, and see actually, as I do that, I can be an even more effective therapist. Um, I guess all that to say, as like learning how to bear my pain, I think that's her— I've heard Terry talk a lot about like—

Yeah.

Bearing our pain in a way that doesn't bring— doesn't keep bringing harm to others. And I'd say that is what, like, through the divorce, learning, okay, I've got this pain, and I can bear it in a way that either continues on with harm, or I can really, in the micro moments, move myself. Into showing up well and lovingly. So I'd say lately, or the more recent years, that's where I've been to see I can do this. And I think that's where I've— when Terri's like, do the 4 steps relentlessly. And I think as I've— like, that's what's helped me survive.

Go on.

I really can do that. And there are these moments, um, there are these moments of decision, you know. I think you all have referenced it before where it's like, I can do the 4 steps right now or not do them. Um, and I think feeling out that Yeah. It's a challenge. I actually was thinking recently about it. So I mentioned, actually, maybe it was before we got on, that I swim. I grew up swimming and I was on a swim team in middle school, high school that was really intense. It's my one claim. Well, second to knowing Dr. Terry Hargrave, my second claim to fame is that I was on one of the top swim teams in the nation. And so in order to—

Whoa.

Yes. So there were Olympians on my team. I swam with Olympians, but I—

Oh, cool.

I was nowhere close to being an Olympian, but I did the same practices as Olympians. And there was a reason the team was so good because we had insane practices. Like it was— we swam, I think, 30 hours a week. And we would— so in the moments of practice, The body can only take so much, right? So it's— I remember the moment of, um, oh, I don't know all the biology with it, but that, I guess, in normal aerobic exercise, you know, we have our normal aerobic respiration or like metabolism. That's the word, aerobic metabolism. But then when we're doing really intense exercise, there's a switch to—

Anaerobic.

Anaerobic metabolism. But I can remember, I could feel my body switch. It was like, I can feel like now my body is trying to shut down, but I've got to push forward. And it became this mental, really mental process of kicking myself into gear to say, okay, I can do this. I can finish this. I can push through the pain. All that to say that that's kind of like the moment, like the moment of decision. Am I gonna push through? Am I gonna push through to do my 4 steps now? Like, there's an opportunity here to do it differently. And I've got that choice. Ah, I just gotta push myself through. But all that to say that all the difficult moments in life, in the recent issues, I've, um, I feel that choice of, oh, I can, I can do it, I can do it.

Wow, thanks so much for sharing that, you know, piece. Um, there's this really great story in, um, this book called Endure. Do you remember the book? You know which story I'm thinking about, Rhett?

You can—

the African runners, like, yeah, that, that train at high elevation.

Yeah. So yeah, this is not the new cover. There's a newer cover, but I read it 3 times.

Your cover is way cooler than mine. Has like a runner on it.

Yeah, I've read it 3 times. That's how, how much the book impacted me. But go ahead.

But yeah, so he— it's toward— it's one of the later chapters in the book But he talks about in the book of how, like, a lot of runners, they train on pace, right? So they just pace themselves for everything.

Mm-hmm.

And then come the people that changed all, like, running forever, which are the people that said, screw pace, let's train to what we can, like, to our maximum. And let's just— let's, let's destroy— let's like take our bodies to the max, um, and, and see how long we can last. So I kind of imagine these— and, and these, um, I feel— I believe they're out of Kenya, um, but they would train to these high levels, like, and, and like they would take off the race and people, people couldn't keep up with them. Um, and a lot of times they would fail because they, they're trained— they're training themselves to fail, like, at their maximums. But eventually, you know, these guys broke records because they found out that you are capable of so much more.

Mm-hmm.

And to know that you are capable of so much more, you know, it reminds me of Sharon Hargrave. You know, she always— one of her favorite sayings is, you know, you can do hard things. And it's just like this Kenyan runner. It's like you can do hard things. And Mary Lee, it sounds like in this place of being stretched to your limits and all these things, you found out inside of you was a much stronger woman that you didn't even know existed. That's awesome.

Yeah, it's been really empowering seeing. And I think it's seeing like, yes, the The bigger pains of life help with, like, yes, I can try to endure that. But it's like seeing, actually, I just get to show up right now. Like, that's what I get to face right now. And whether it's a difficult conversation or just a difficult situation, it's like, well, right now, that's all— that's what I get to endure. I can do that hard thing. And then— Then yes, it becomes, oh, wow, look, I have been able to face this hard thing. And look, it's growing me. And look, I'm really working hard not to pass down the harm and, um, and figuring out what does that mean? What does that mean to, um, show up authentically, to be loving, um, and also to be direct? I think that's something for me. Like, I don't have to— Uh, well, yeah, I can, I can be direct with my limits, um, while also being loving. And, um, that's been a powerful lesson that I've gotten to practice.

That's good.

And tell me, I don't know if you feel comfortable answering this question, but I'm, I'm curious, you know, we're therapists, and what do you think Like, for a marriage family therapist, you know, what it— how, what, how can we be better with helping people that are in the midst of, um, or, um, like, or post-divorce? Like, what do you think? Like, man, I want to like tell therapists like this about divorce.

Oh, that's a good question. I wish I had like a nice packaged answer to tell you.

Sorry, we didn't talk about this ahead of time.

So you should make a package, sell it, run a funnel online, you know, sell the program, then you're good to go.

Well, I don't know. I don't know. But I can say, well, I think for myself, like, I think before I was divorced, or even before I had this thought that that might happen, there was a sense that I was like, oh, yeah, I get it. That's hard. But that doesn't really apply to me. Like, that's not— I feel for you. But I guess there's a sense of really, I think, my own judgment of— like, I didn't know I had judgment of it. I didn't know. Like, I completely understand that happens for a lot of people. But I think when suddenly it was aimed at myself, then I was like, oh, I think I do have some judgment about this. I do have shame and judgment of myself and others.

Hmm.

So I think the challenge to really be honest with ourselves about how our pain informs our judgments.

Mm-hmm.

And that, um, I, I mean, I think that, uh, back to like showing up for the client, if the client has something that I think, oh, I don't really know if I can relate to this, or, or maybe I have some judgment, some critical thoughts about it, that I think going through this for myself, I, I realize it's back to I truly am human. This person in front of me truly is human, and we're in the same boat. Like, we both have our— we're both just— we know pain just as well, just as much. And I can truly empathize with their— I might not like their reactivity, but I can have compassion for their pain. So I guess back to the— that's with the divorce, post-divorce, single parents, or, you know, just divorced folks being able to see, I don't necessarily know your story, but I know I can relate, you know, because of my own pain.

I always say, like, It's not lost on me that we're called Restoration Therapy, you know, that we're in a good community of people, you know, that I, that I, I've experienced it firsthand myself, you know. And also having 2 people like Sharon and Terry who have modeled that, that this is a— it's, it's hard to— it's hard for life to fall apart than show up and be a therapist and think you're not being Disingenuous or phony at some point. But what I love about RIT is, and the community around us, is the willingness for people to help you grow and to navigate hard times and to come out in a new place restored and doing probably better work than we've ever done. You know, I would imagine the type of therapist you are today, even having gone through that, is— Is pretty remarkable, I would imagine, the transformation.

Well, really, it has made— it has contributed to me being a much more effective therapist.

Yeah.

Because as I face— as I'm more honest with myself, I can show up more honestly in terms of being more direct. I think for me particularly, being more direct, to be able to name harm that's happening in the room, I'm much more confident doing now. Like that, I'd say that's one of the things I'm really more effective in that I will name it. And I don't have the fear that I think I used to have with, oh gosh, I don't want to offend. And Terry has helped me a lot with that. Like, just, you see it, you call it what it is. It's not helpful.

Yeah. There's a difference between being nice and being kind.

Yes. Yes.

And I much prefer the person that's gonna look at me and say, Lance, you got something in your teeth, bro. Um, or, or like some of my really good friends who will say, Lance, you're being an absolute idiot right now. You need to chill. And I'll say, I hate you and I love you. Um, yeah, it's good to have Kindness over niceness.

Well, and that's something I really, I love about the RT community. I mean, that there is, like you were saying, Lance, there is this sense of authenticity, that there is the challenge to do the work ourselves. And I think as a result, we're able to care for one another, to be compassionate and understanding. To one another as therapists, that we don't have to perform for each other, we can show up and ask for help. And, and there's a real connecting piece there that is really meaningful. And I think can be— it's unique in a lot of ways that that's something RT has to offer. And I think with that, this is— I know we're We're good. Um, but I wanted to—

We're landed.

Gotcha. Um, there is the piece of— I think about different faiths of therapists and how, as there is very much the Christian faith that many RT therapists share, um, but I— which is great, and I, I know in my own life, um, I mean, I can, as a Christian, speak to that. RT helps my framework in really in the truth that is a part of my faith. Also the challenge to think, how do we enlarge this for therapists of all different faiths? And that is something that's been on my heart with And I don't, I don't know the answer, but I do wonder, do you— I mean, is that something y'all think about with how can we, um, make this accessible, accessible to a wide range of beliefs?

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the beautiful things that Terry did with the model— I mean, obviously he comes from a very deep, profound Christian faith. And it's very informed, but he's also very psychologically informed. And in fact, the first book, you know, like, is so psychologically informed. You know, he's leaning into attachment theory very clearly, you know, of, you know, really like even creating a much better understanding of attachment than most attachment theorists.

Mm-hmm.

Because now we can understand what's happening in the moment. So I think he's also leaned in with mindfulness. Like, this is, you know, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, this is the way, right, of helping people is mindfulness. And finally, with emotional regulation, you know, these 3 things, like, yes, they're very much found in Christian theology, but there's—

Yeah.

they're actually very applicable to all sectors, right? All faiths. You know, you can come in with a, um, you know, a, a Muslim faith, a Buddhist faith. Like, there's, there's, there's the ability to see this idea in around mindfulness, self-regulation, and attachment. Um, now some of them might like lean against attachment a lot more, or like culturally even Um, thinking of how other cultures deal with attachment. But mindfulness and self-regulation, I think there is this, um, this movement, um, that, that really is, um, uh, very congruent. Um, so I don't think we have to work super hard, um, to, um, be inclusive with restoration therapy.

Yeah, I mean, I go back to what Eric Minton said on a podcast. He feels like we We hide a lot of the beauty of RT under this bushel, right?

Yeah.

And this podcast, obviously, since Lance and I come from ministry backgrounds too, can skew with a lot of integration pieces. But, you know, in the RT, the first book, the only mention of God is it's one— it's only one aspect of being informed by our truth. And it's not— and, and, and in that sense, the higher truth isn't even just about maybe what God says to you, but finding a truth that is outside of yourself. You know, and so there's— I think there are so many entry points into working with people of different faiths and people who would say they're agnostic, atheists, don't practice a faith. Um, I've never in the room been intimidated. I feel like I can use RT comfortably with anybody who shows up in my office.

Yeah.

Um, but it's a good question and it's a good reminder, I think, even for us in the RT community to realize that the— there's a lot of room for a lot of people, and we want to make space for that also, and not be fearful that it's— we're going to lose some element or something.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. Because there's— it, it is— there's so much to give with it that for, for therapists to— therapists of all faiths, it can be a great community.

Yeah, it's a good question that we could spend a lot of time on, that's for sure.

Yeah, I know.

Sorry, that's the train. Don't go down that track, Lance. The crazy train is gonna go.

The train was actually coming up over the mountain and catching speed.

Yeah, don't take the bait. Hey, it's been fun having you on, Mary Lee. I really appreciate your heart, you know. The people of Florence, South Carolina are very blessed to have you in their midst. And yeah, we'll have your information on the show notes on how to find you, how to connect with you. What's your favorite way for people to connect with you, Rayleigh?

My email, really. I do not have much online presence. Yeah, that's the direct way to reach me.

And I'm sure right now—

I went to her website originally. I'm like, she's pretty low profile.

I love it. I'm very low profile. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm sure right now as I'm talking, Mary Lee's email is underneath me, right?

It's probably the same email that she sent me in 2014.

It probably is. I don't know. Yeah, it probably is.

I think so. And thank you, people, for listening, indulging me. I don't like to take time away from guests, but we did the whole history. I was like, wow, okay, Atlanta, Dallas— I mean, not Dallas, Atlanta, Pasadena. That feels like a— that feels like a long time ago, but I really— it's only 12 years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's just a lot of life, right?

A lot of life.

Yeah, that does speak to the, the, that we're, we're still connected. Like, there we've got this great connecting point.

So yeah, thank you. I love it. It'll be fun to see you at, um, Malibu.

Yes, I'll be there. I'll be there.

And if you want to email Mary Lee, her email address is marylee.evanslmft@gmail.com. So yeah, um, but yeah, looking forward to seeing you at the Thanks, you too.

Y'all take care.

All right, everybody, thanks for tuning in. We'll talk later.

Cheers.

See ya, bye.