Beyond Satisfied ft Kenneth Play

Sex Talk Derek Miley.

Cause sexuality is tough and okay, sex just isn't good enough.

No Sex Talk with Erica Miley.

Hey folks, welcome to Sex Talk with Erica Miley. Erica Miley here. You know, I like to bring people who know their resources, people who are high level nerds like myself. So today I have brought you who GQ and Men's Health have called the world's greatest sex hacker. Kenneth Play is the, is the author and sex educator and the author of Beyond Satisfied. Kenneth gives very specific skill acquisition to men to help bring pleasure to their female partners. Kenneth, I just can't wait for this conversation. Thanks for coming.

I'm so excited to be here. I love talking to other therapists about helping clients get the result they want and the experience they really want to feel in their body.

I'm just so excited because I think this episode is going to, I'm going to be coming back to it so much just to refer it to people. The thing that struck me the most, I think up front about your book was this unique addition of QR codes. You added QR codes throughout the entire book that has specific images on how to do specific skills. Like that's not like I, I, I struggle often to find resources or come across a book or a course that has specific instructions for sexual skills. I mean, we have lots of books with anatomy and things like that. But what was your thinking about creating these highly directive images and the course?

I think prior to become a sex educator and a sex hacker, I was in the fitness industry for 15 years. So I'm used to teaching people literally how to do things. And I find that when I was researching and learning about sex education, it was really hard to come across like the right amount of instruction and how to cue somebody do something. Like when you teach someone how to do a squat or a push up or, or something that involves their body, there are science. I mean the fitness community has their experience and the protocol to teach. And I was like, why didn't we use that technology to teach this the same thing? Because people have to feel confident in their body and also able to do something and experience it. So I basically went full on pandemic nerd mode. And since I have the time, I was in lockdown and I find that 2D diagram is so limiting. Right. I only got black and white, so there's a lot of 3D stuff that I couldn't really do. And then there's a lot of stuff that is easier to demonstrate. Right. Instead of describing with words, it just doesn't translate as well. And I want to see the, literally the movement so the entire like from the start to finish. So everyone get exactly what I'm trying to like illustrate and show them how to do. So it was, it was really, it's quite challenging actually to do all custom diagram because a lot of sex stuff is missing. But I was very lucky that I have the time and their previous experience to kind of translate sexual like fitness skill to sex skills.

This feels like a duh, why didn't we do this before moment. And I'm just so glad that you got the opportunity to bring us something like this because I mean, you know, maybe one of my colleagues will come for me in the comments at some point and say like there's these things and. But I have, I really haven't seen something that is, that is comprehensive in showing skills. I, and you know, as therapists, we, you and I talked about this before we started recording. We can't, we can't actually do that. That's not something that our licenses allow for. So me being able to look for a course or a coach that I can actually refer somebody to that fill in these knowledge gaps for people. I'm just so stoked. I mean, throughout your book you also talked about maybe some of your own examples of things you've experienced. And I think people hearing their own story is so important in how we learn. And you talked about self sabotage and anxiety and how it impacted you. But I'd really love for us to talk about it and how does it impact men's sexual health? Do you mind talking about your own example?

No, no, no. My clients, all the time, I talk about my average sized penis all day long now for a living. Which is so odd because that used to be my deepest insecurity. Like as a man, you think like being fit is like one of those things. Oh, at least I could work out and work hard. When you have you, when you believe in the myth that bigger is better rather than this pleasure fit standpoint that you think in your whole life, if you don't have a porn star, then you are worthless in the bedroom. So most men would think, can I last long enough? Can I get hard enough? You know, is my dick big enough? And that's all they consider as what they got to offer in the bedroom. But right, like the data show, so many dissatisfied heterosexual women because they don't understand how pledging work, they don't understand how orgasm work. They just so penis focus, which is, which is not the answer. But not to Say that if you. You learn how to use your penis is not going to give great pleasure. But the overemphasizing on. On that side. But rather than the actual technique the connection to know how orgasm work. So also my personal experience of building sexual confidence. I'm a place with zero self esteem.

Right.

I think those lessons are really important to people because I would never think that I'm the person I am today. But there is something like adapting a growth mindset to sexuality really profoundly changed. And I just want to share that with more people.

You've put this beautifully. The deep, deep interconnectedness of the emotional experience of this also in the experience of having a lack of education and how that plays out for all of us. And I actually pulled up the image. I don't know how we can figure out if we can show it. I'm going to try to figure out a way if we can show it with your permission. But because you know trying to get YouTube or any of these other socials to not ban crap because we're just trying to show educational information. But on page 35, y' all, go get this damn book. Okay? Beyond satisfied. Go get it. So you can see this image. You actually like break it down based on population. Like the 2% of the population that does have this, this specific length, like 8 to 10 inches plus then 23% underneath it. Like you, you break it down and what is more average and. And what to expect. I don't know that I have ever seen that broken down so clearly in an image before. And I mean of course maybe in my education as a sex therapist, but not something that I could be consumable by the public, you know.

And also most people think like it's a matter of like if you're not the rock that you're not like I forgot how Tori is 646 6. Then you are, you are too short to be anything in life. And that's crazy because like I'm 5 9. Imagine I walk around thinking I'm 41 or something. That's how most men feel. But majority of the population is, you know, in the middle and also did one with their vagina vulva to penis fit and majority of people fit on the planet. It's really the extreme either end of the outlier that have the most trouble. But most people work and we are too hung up on, you know, life is not a basketball game in that sense. You know what I mean? It's not a major advantage. Most people are looking for, you know, in the middle of the bell curve. And it works great.

Yeah, I just, I really do. I appreciate the very specific image and I do think that if, if this image was in sex education across the world, we would have a much better understanding about. Oh, okay. Genitals can look a lot of different ways. And the average bell curve is, you know, not the 2% of what we see in the performance of porn. And so I, I do want to talk a little bit about that. What other than penetration we need to be talking about. Right. Like you in the book talk about teaching men free erotic play. And, and then so I'm. I'm curious how you think this might deconstruct the focus of penetrative sex.

Well, I think that's two part. It's like only having one dish on the menu. We've been overemphasizing penetrative sex and it's not the most reliable way to. To induce orgasm for. For most female body. Right. So it depends. Some. Some women love it. You know, it works for them most of the time. But that's a smaller percentage. However, the orgasm gap is so big. And you know, that's why if you think about. If dick is all you need a big point sock, then dildo sale will be the number one sale. Like. Right. And vibrator. I'll sell dildos any day.

Absolutely.

And also I think they're bigger lesson that most, most men don't understand. And it's not because they're bad people. It's just that we are all robbed of good sex education. They don't understand the clitoris is dressed like their head of their penis. Like imagine you tell most men that they should have an orgasm without the head of their penis touch and only being fucking the prostate if without warmup and they expect you to come. And if they never learn how to do that. Not that you can't. Like obviously, you know, many gay men to come from their prostate, but most gay men still prefer to touch their penis while their prostate is stimulated. You know, for prostate stimulation only. Orgasm is rare among gay men too. So if they understand their anatomy is that, you know, the parts are very similar. If you just stimulate at the part that is most reliable, like the head of the penis and the clitoris, then more people will have more orgasms.

Absolutely.

And we also have this very extreme view in America. Either you could have a carnivore diet or meat, or you are vegan. So we like to like isolate to one thing less G spot only or a spot only or whatever. And to me it's like when you cook a meal, you want to taste all the flavor, you want the appetizer on the main course, you want the dessert. And they just different flavors. So because of this culture of isolating, it's like having a full keyboard and then you only play one note. That's just crazy, you know?

Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. And I think you're speaking on something that is specific, especially in American culture. Like when you were talking about the prostate and the stimulation of the two. I mean, how many. I can't tell you how many people who I have talked to who are afraid to get their first prostate exam because they're afraid that they're going to essentially ejaculate immediately. Like.

Just like the cervix and G spot. It needs, it needs to learn a sensation. And the whole sexual learning was fascinating. Interview one of some of the top sex researcher like James Faust on the topic to really understand the role of learning and how your brain kind of learn what's pleasurable, you know. And then we feel like we are born with initial sexual experience, which is just the beginning stage of it all. Like people who are much older report to have way better sex because they give less fuck, is less about relationship and marriage and baby and all that stuff. And they just focus on the sexes and get better as they get older. So I think the role of learning and a growth mindset is so important when it comes to pleasure.

You're absolutely right. Joan Price, who's been on the show, she talks about that all the time, about how the sex of her life now is better than it ever was when she was in her 20s. And I think you're, you're onto that like as we learn, as we grow, as we develop. And I'm saying to this to my clients all the time that who you were when you were 16 is not who you were when you were 22, is not who you were when you're 33, when you're not. Like there is a development across your lifespan. And I think what you're advocating for is growth and understanding of your sexual development throughout your life, not just in this very, very specific period of time. And penetration ain't where it's at for most of us.

I think because of my own like fitness background, I look at as more of a sexual fitness. You know, you could be like deconditioned that you don't have like your joint don't have normal range of motion, right to feeling normal, like you could do most things versus like an Athlete or Olympian, there are stages of development that you like, how easy for you to get into a state of arousal, how easy for you to turn away distraction, how, how can you focus on your sensation? Do you know what sensation your body like? Do you know how to get that sensation? Communicate, negotiate? All those are skill development over time. But I think one of the most surprising thing for many people is that, I mean, fitness takes forever. When you teach someone how to like change their diet and work out, it takes a while for them to get results. One of those things that you could dial in all the right parts. It worked pretty immediately and it keep getting better because it's amazing.

So yeah, there's definitely. I'm an athlete over here and I just finished and graduated PT from an injury. And coming back from an injury takes a long period of time. But the argument here is that with education and understanding, like the, the growth can be very quick. And I see that a lot in my own practice, that once someone starts to do a level acceptance of their own body and what their own body needs, and then starts to add education and understand how their emotions work, the curve to healing actually goes real quick because of that openness.

It's also pleasure. Something that I find fascinating lately is that pleasure is one of those things. It's like eating food. Imagine you've been served a meal that you really don't like. The taste and texture and it's kind of predictable and boring. All the time you go like, oh, I must not like eating. And all of a sudden you serve one delicious meal and you go like, holy fuck, it's delicious. I mean, that's the change. You just have to get the right meal in the right condition, in the right state to eat it, you know?

Yeah, I think that's, that's a excellent, an excellent way to think about it. I do wonder how many, as you've gone through this process of creating the book and you, you laid out actually really clearly the kind of myths and the, the things that are really, really important, the ideas that are important to deconstruct. I, I'm curious what you think, which maybe sex myth or body myth is maybe the most toxic to men specifically?

I really think their penis size is a huge thing and just like overemphasizing on erection and like lasting four or five hours, like straight up penetration is not the reality. You know, I think when most female women masturbate, it's not taking them 20 minutes to come most of the time. Right. Like, I'm talking about bell curve. If it's just done right. And you have the right sexual context and erotic narrative in your head and you're feeling relaxed and safe. I think what most people don't know is how to create that condition in that environment for someone to drop into that state and also give quality of touch and add eroticism. So that's why I hate sometime we sex educator make female pledges so much more difficult. Right. It is complex, but it's not this crazy mountain that you have to climb. But you do need to understand what you need to do. Just like cooking eggs, right. You could totally make over dry, disgusting eggs. And there's many different ways to prepare eggs, but once you learn how to do it, then it comes out like that most of the time, right?

Yes.

And is that not that hard to learn? But I use a very hacker mindset and approach to it because I want to give people literal instruction and framework how to figure it out. Not just give them recipe, but like this is how you figure out the individual differences. And if the person don't know, you just try the lowest hanging fruit. Like imagine every guy out there trying to give a woman a nipple orgasm first time. That is not going to work out that often.

That's like video Game level 10, not level one. Yeah.

And yes, some women are wired that way naturally, but it's such a small percentage. So I want to give them the highest, like most reliable bet to be satisfying and then start from there.

Yeah, I think that understanding the average. But you said something I do want to touch on, which I think is an important element of it, which is understanding the environment. It might be to be and feel safe to connect with pleasure. And because I do work with a lot of women, that is a very key element of it. And I mean especially through sex education, most of us, at least here in the United States were taught that that's like sex and shame and all of the education around it. That's like a stove that's hot. You don't want to touch it because all these terrible things are going to happen. When that happens, if you have sex, you know you're going to die. Like, you know the incredible mean girl scene, right. Like they then throw condoms at teenagers. Creating an environment of safety is really, really important. And you talk about in the book about what does it mean to listen to your partner. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, absolutely. I think our ability to read erotic Q both, I mean, first you have to care about your partner's pleasure and then you have to able to have your own level of interoception like feeling your own feelings and then picking up those cue by looking at your partner. So it's like breath sound and movement and what is, what is a pleasurable sign versus what is not. It's also a lot of. I think sometime people don't want to take their time to learn how to read it. Like then they don't know where they're going, they don't have the data. But once you tune yourself to pay attention to those cues, you don't have to pay as much attention down the road. But as you know working with your client, you know like the dual control model. James House, you wrote my forward of the book as part of that study. And Emily Lagoski come as you all talks a lot about that. But when people don't know when their brakes are on. So if you learn how to get their foot off the brake first before you get the car going, a lot of that work has actually happened before you even touch someone.

Yeah.

How do you get someone to be in there in a relaxed aroused state and as soon as you dialed everything in. It's a lot, it's a lot easier.

Absolutely. It's. It just is. I feel like the work I do is the pre. The getting to the sex work. It's understanding how to not put the brakes on because you don't understand what it means to have an intense feeling period. I'm what you're talking about how the learning and the acquisition of the skills and the learning the cues you do, you just have. It takes time. But that, that time pays off in big big ways because it gets a lot easier down the road.

And that's why I do I teach it really literally. Because if listener might think all this is like concept and theories and. But I think putting into practice in a real world scenario. So when you see someone not so relaxed, how can you refocus the mind? How can you take some breaths together? How do you have some grounding touch? How do you lower expectation if someone is too emphasized on a end result and they're not in that state? So like I think sometimes the teaching is a little off. Like don't, you know, don't be too focused on an orgasm. It makes sense but people don't understand the reasoning behind it. So when you're very attached to a goal, then you know, not in your body looking for what's happening as you know the mindfulness aspect of it. But orgasm is still important. So how do you have the best of both world so you have to eliminate their behavior of being very goal driven at the moment, but also have the skill to experience what it's like to be satisfied. So giving people a technical how to and hacks is much easier than just giving them a theory and hope they will discover a way to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So just so that folks can kind of understand you as you were coming to the perspective of writing this book, like if you had one thing that you could say to teenage you that that that young one who really probably was lost in the woods when it came to puberty. Right? Yeah. Like as an adult man, knowing what you know now, what would you say to him?

I think two things. One is totally the growth mindset. Sex is just like everything else, that if you put time and effort into it, you could become as amazing as you willing to put in the work. It's also way more fun on the other side. I think one of the surprising thing about being a man who love female pleasure and love women. I underestimated how much women love sex when it's good. So if you're like, if you built a great restaurant, there will be a line at your door that is, that is the truth.

Right?

Yeah. A girl could eat. So believe me.

Yes, absolutely. And I do think when we were talking before about the anxiety part, I do think that there is this. The anxiety of opening up to the idea of that level of pleasure whether however you identify. And I think that's something that you're. You're arguing that if you feel competent then that you can reduce that fear in, in large ways.

Yeah. I mean it feels good to be Michael Jordan on a basketball court or feel like Gordon Ramsey in the kitchen. Right. And it's the skills that you could absolutely develop. And unfortunately the bar is set so low. If you just like good like and you could reliably give an orgasm and you're not a dick about it, it's. You're like on the 1% already, you know.

So you are so not wrong here. Like the bar is on the floor. On the floor.

But I also believe men are not inherently selfish. We just arrive. All that sex education and they want to give and they want to learn and they've been misguided by only seeing imagery in porn which they think that's creating female pleasure and it's not, you know, most of the time. So yeah. Performance.

Yeah.

It's like learning how to drive by watching the Fast and furious. Yeah.

Like Vin Diesel. Fantastic. Hot. Yep. But should I go out and try any of that shit. Absolutely not. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try things from porn, but the reality is is like again, that's like level 10 and took probably hours and hours of shots to just acquire those images. So when it comes to our, our interactions together, it just has to be different and has to come from a different mindset. Kenneth, you are just a fabulous human being. I'm so excited about this book again. I have yet to come across a book like this one and a course like yours. So the therapists listen out there. The sex therapists listen out there. We need to vote for this book out because you know how it is on social medias and any of these platforms. We get shadow banned for bullshit. So I want beyond zatified out there. So how do folks find you in the world other than my show notes?

They can find me@kenaplay.com and for the book because Amazon is giving me some some censorship right now. So go to kenaplay.com book and you can find Beyond Satisfy. It's also so on different online bookstore. But I'm really excited about sending this book to be evaluated by a bunch of sex therapists and by ASEC to see if it's a recommended resource. I built it with that intent too. To have all the illustration, both from a scientific point of view to their literal steps on how to do it together. And my core sex hacker pro, I have so many couple who watch us together because they both approach it from a place of curiosity instead of like, you can satisfy me. So you watch this. A lot of people watch it out of curiosity and want to learn the thing, do a thing together. And it's been phenomenal to see like couples change their sex life completely because they just never been fed that right meal. I think we talked about it earlier.

Yes.

Like they never tasted good food, you know they've been eating, but once they start to taste good, they crave it.

Here's the reality. You are building sex restaurants and not really somebody would get mad and cancel some bullshit. You are making great sex happen for people. And I appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much folks.

Thanks for sticking around to the end. We'll see you next time.