Insider Reveals Secret Parties of the Mega-Rich

My perception of someone that has never gone to a sex party, I just imagine there's like a room of 100 people that are all just like, banging everywhere. And it's just like this writhing, carnal situation. I'm thinking like, eyes wide shut. You know what I mean?

Yes and no. You don't necessarily will go up and go like, can I put my in your.

This is Kenneth Play. He's been called the world's greatest S x hacker by GQ & Co founded one of New York's most prominent S X communities. And today we're talking about what a S X party with billionaires and celebrities is actually. Like, how you can make any woman. You know, why he introduced his wife to her new husband and how two men can be married to the same woman at the same time. So this topic is a little different for me. But Kenneth is super smart and explains his perspective and lifestyle in a really, really unique way. So without further ado, enjoy my conversation with Kenneth Play. Welcome to camp Kenneth Play. Thank you so much for joining me, bro. I really appreciate this.

I am so excited to be here today.

This is going to be fun. So just first, can you explain what is your job?

Wow. You know, it's kind of a. I joke around sometime at parties and the most. So depending if I want to, like, horrify someone or like, trigger someone.

Horrify me.

Trigger me. I teach men how to hit women for a living. It's the most triggering one. Okay. That's fire. And then they go. And then I wait for them to, like, feel about it. What? Well, then what I actually do is that, you know, when people are into impact play as their erotic fantasy, you want to show them properly how to deal with it safely while they get their arousal and. And the pleasure out of that experience. So. So if I want to go shocking, I say that. And if I don't want to tell people what I do at a party on a plane sometime.

Oh, yeah.

So I just say I'm in education or I'm in real estate or I build community. But it's tough because I find myself in like the strangest crowd or room with. With different. Like it could be a conference for digital marketer and they're all like business people and then. But I'm still kind of in. In that realm.

You're an entrepreneur.

Yeah. And they always interested to talk to me because of like, the sex party stuff is interesting or like any sex stuff. So it gets me into the door. But I usually ask them, like, you know, if I tell you what I do for a living. Either you are really offended. Right. Horrified or you might be interested.

So.

And then usually I give them an opportunity to kind of like be curious.

Yeah, it is polarizing.

Yeah.

Like you'll get people that'll be like, okay, I'm going to go get a drink. Or you'll get people be like, okay, when can I join you? I feel like it's very, very polarizing. But it's cool though. So it'll be a mixture of like sex education, like teaching people how to explore their bodies and then additionally like just sex parties. Like you, I guess would just host like like forums and like spaces where people can go and explore their sexuality without a lot of instruction or.

I think there's two sides to my career. I am, I'm a co founder at Hacienda, which is a sex positive community where we host a lot of education events, sex parties to sex science conference or like sex worker rights stuff. So that's a very community experience where we have members and like it could be people having brunch and oji at the same time and the other side.

At the same time.

Yeah, brunch and oji brunch are amazing. It's like the. I personally prefer it.

Yeah, but you prefer it to brunch or just a regular orgy?

I prefer brunch time og on Sunday rather than Saturday night because the vibe is different. Like Saturday night has like this hungry, nightclub night, meatpacking vibe where people go like, oh, I'm like hunting Sunday. People are kind of chill out, want to hang. And then it's also earlier during the day. So like you still have, you still could function Monday night so you're not doing the all nighter.

Interesting. Do you get a different crowd? I mean, I know a lot of it is like community based and there's like vetting that goes into it. But I'm curious, do you get in that hunting versus like chilling paradigm? I'm curious if you get people when it's late at night on like a Saturday or Friday that are like almost using the night as a way to like shield kind of what they're doing. Whereas in the daytime I feel like you get people that are much more open and kind of, I guess free in the experience. Is that fair?

I think people talk more or, or hang out more at daytime events and kind of like brunch is also like people are sitting down and eating. Although for a long time now at Hacienda, I used to like, I was very determined to Provide a meal, like a proper, like gourmet meal at like 3 or 4 o', clock, because nobody want to eat a big dinner before they go to a sex party and everybody's starving by that time. And what we realize over the years at Hacienda, that just having a bunch of casual sex, like with a bunch of stranger eventually becomes kind of lonely and sketchy. And the only way to combat just having purely casual experience is to give people a sense of belonging. And belonging is different than being like fitting in and clicking because, you know, fitting in is that you have to look a certain way, you have to, to subscribe to something. And belonging is that where you could express your sexuality freely and find people into it. So the belonging piece require us to kind of like slow down, stop hunting, eat, and connect with people. So we decided to like really cook. Like cooking for 200 people at a sex party is a very interesting experience. Especially they have been fucking all night and they're waiting to eat your food and you're about to serve. It's kind of a cool tribal experience that you see people like really hungry after event and just thirsty, but in a good way.

200 people?

Yeah, 200.

Okay, can you explain just like this weekend, is there a sex party happening?

It happens quite often, like maybe every other weekend.

So could you just take me through like A to Z. How does it happen? What are the details of like an elite New York City sex party?

Well, Hacienda has a long history, so we've been, we've been, it's been 12 years actually. So it's a long time. And we have made plenty of mistakes over the years to kind of engineer a experience where you both have. It's like what it comes down to is about responsible hedonism. So you have to have both. So it could easily turn into a drug then and like when it's too wild. So you have to have a level of responsibility. So we actually put a lot of effort into educating people, getting people. People only allowed to be member when another member is vouching for them. So there's like old school rule like, no, you don't, you don't fuck over your best friend's sister thing, right? So you have to build that, that social pain if you fuck someone over. So like what we learn is that's the best way to do it. Also you have to get people practicing. Consent is different than preaching consent because most people don't know how to, right? So if you go to a typical nightclub, you sort of have this like, Culture and how people chat up each other. Right. But when you transition to a place where you're out on nightlife but sex is possible and available and is not a taboo thing to do, how do you learn to negotiate with a, like a stranger or a friend's friend into from hello to fucking.

That's interesting. Yeah. The nightclub setting, there's an implicit scarcity of sex.

Yeah.

Like there you go to a nightclub and there's, you know, if there's 100 people there, there's 70 dudes and there's 30 women and, you know, maybe 10 or 15 of them might be your specific taste in terms of like what you find attractive. And so now you have all these guys going for like four women.

Yeah.

And they're all trying to flirt with these same four women. And there's like an intensity and a scarcity to that thing. Whereas I guess at a sex party, all of a sudden the scarcity is gone in a certain way.

In a certain way. Also, like to engineer a really good play party, you kind of want each guest to. You think they're going to be at least attracted to three people at the party. Like so I mean, it's harder when it scales up to get that. But when we used to do like more smaller group, their engineering is about like having the right ratio. So if every person, you think at least they're going to be attracted to three people, then is a great party. Also there's no sense of like, you're not hoarding. Right. You go in there like this is mine or yours. Although you still have to deal with like relationship rules and boundary, etc. But most people feel like there's enough to eat. But if the vibe sometime it goes to the same like every nightclub when the club is about to close and like they. They didn't find that party so it get more desperate.

Yeah.

So we're trying to eliminate some of those like predictable pitfall. But also having the right gender ratio usually helps a lot or sexual orientation ratio at a party. So people are attracted to enough people at the party. But it's also tricky because you cannot like, you know, the idea of being inclusive is like having everybody in a room. Right. But at the same time, if you have a bunch of gay men who only want to have sex with men and there's not enough gay men in the crowd or other men who wants to have sex with other men, then it's not a great party for them.

So, so how do you organize the ratio? What is the strategy that goes into it let's say you have like a thousand people that you're trying to curate this party. What are you trying to balance?

I think having different types of event is really important and having different producer because the party is as good as the producer's crowd. So sometime we will have like Zachary Zane, who's a great sex writer, he does a bi slut party. So, like bi boy party. So that's his crowd and it will be.

What is that?

A bi boy. So boys who are into both gender. Both sex.

So and what would be the ratio of that party? Is it.

Well, there'll be. It actually be like 70% men, 30% of women in that ratio, 70% of men, almost all of them a bi.

Got it.

So then that party is more fun, but the crowd usually follow the producer. And sometime we have other parties, like queer only or it's a queer party focus. And then here's another party, a different age group. So in some parties is everybody. But you kind of have to cater to a crowd. And then instead of having like one producer, we just kind of find producer with different communities who could serve a wider community at the same time having a fun party. So it's a tricky balance being inclusive enough, right. And being fun enough is always a thing.

So then your parties that you produce, what is that typically? What is the ratio there and what are the angles and who are you trying to serve?

Well, I don't run as I don't produce the party anymore. Personally, I've been doing it for so many years, so we have a great team doing it. So I don't want to take their credit, but back in the day or currently, the system that. The system that we created over time, we build up this, like, massive member list now. So we kind of always sell out, right? Like really quickly for parties or we have. But what I have found is that if you add a party when there's 70% veterans and 30% newbie is pretty good.

Okay.

Because if you have a bunch of newbie, they don't know what to do. Like, they go, like, do I? Like, when do I take my shirt off? When do I have sex? So you kind of have to have established kind of culture and ritual enough and enough people who are comfortable enough that they would just start. And so I think that is a really good strategy. Also, we do a lot of Burning man culture stuff, so it's a lot of theme party as well. So, like, people get to dress up as whatever theme that we pick that day. Have you done that party? Yeah, I've been to that three times.

Oh, cool. Yeah, I went for the first time last year.

Yeah. So you know that culture I love. Yeah.

I had so much fun. I'm going back this year. It was like, so I hate to be the guy that was, like. It was awesome and, like, transformative. But genuinely, I went and just had so much fun.

Yeah. We borrow a lot from the Burning man culture because it's about, you know, those 10 principle and how to live in a completely different paradigm. Right. So when people go to play parties, if they allow themselves to experience where the world rules are different, because expressing your sexual desire and feeling comfortable that you will not be rejected for what you want is a pretty universal feeling. So how do we make that very comfortable for people to ask and also make it very comfortable for people to say yes and no and yes and no without the consequences. Sometime when you feel like you say no to someone, there'd be annoyance or some level of consequences. So we're really trying to coach people. Is that you, in this environment, you will treat yes and no with no consequences either way, how people do it. And you could revoke it at any time. So you could opt in an out at any time.

Okay.

You could be in middle of anal and just say, no, no, thanks, I'm out. And then no one will give, you know, shit about it. Yeah, that'd be great.

Hopefully there's no shits. Okay, so hypothetically, let's just go through this experience with me. Okay? So I got married when I was 23 years old. I'm still married to my wife. I've only been with one woman.

So hypothetically, your entire life.

My entire life. So let's say I came to you and I was like, okay, Kenneth, I want to go to a sex party. What would you do? Like, what would be my journey into that experience? And can you, like, break it down? Like, you would invite me, Would I sign up for a list? Like, take me through all the details for.

For Hacienda specifically. So for the first thing I would ask you as a. As a person is like, you know, what is your current relationship agreement? Because we don't want to create any drama on that end. Like, that is your responsibility, your business.

My current relationship agreement is that I'm not allowed to go to a sex party. Now, hypothetically, let's say the agreement was, yeah, I'm allowed to go, and I'm allowed to do anything I want.

Also, you could be in a state of, like, uncertainty, too. Like, my partner and I are Kind of afraid and kind of curious. It would be a different conversation. Or if she's a hell no, then it's a different conversation. So let's assume it's a hell no. Then I go like, you know, I think you should work that out among yourself before we entertain this conversation. Okay, that was a hell no.

Okay.

But if you guys are considering, then I'm more likely to invite someone to a social event where it's not like, orgy heavy.

Okay.

So we do a lot of social events too, where it just mingles and talk is a date night. So it's more like you could make out, you could feel each other up, or you could just, like, watch other people. But it's not full on sex. So we do a lot of social for newbies to kind of get used to the community, get used to people. So there's levels of events.

Interesting.

And if you are. If you are both like, yes, like, we kind of want to see what this experience is like, then the next question is that, do you want to go along or you want to come together?

I see. Okay. So hypothetically, let's say there was a single person. Let's say I'm single and I'm like, okay, I'm going to go alone. I've gone to the first mixer social event where it's just kind of like making out, whatever. And then you would basically like, vet me and be like, okay, you seem like you are in an emotional state and in a social state where you could go to an actual event.

Well, if we were friends, that I'd be the person who's vouching for you. If I don't know you. Right. And I don't come, I don't feel comfortable vouching for you because vouching is like really vouching. Because if they get kicked out, you get kicked out. Right. Wow.

So your reputation's on the line for.

Every person you vouch, you vouch for. Yeah. And we do it like, like, you know, with no hesitation. Because in order for the system to have integrity, that has to be the role.

Of course.

So. So if I vouch for you, then we. I, like, I have enough of a personal experience of you to kind of make that judgment, that you'll be respectful. You care about boundary. You. You. You're in it for the right reason. If I don't know you, then I will invite you to a social event where you have to force to make friends that they will vouch for you.

I see. So you're like, okay, I Don't feel comfortable putting my name in the line because I don't know you well enough. But maybe you could meet someone that knows you well enough, that connects with you, that then they would vouch for you.

And also they. We want people to invest in relationship, not in. What I mean by relationship is more about connection. So people will trust you. So you have to build trust.

Yeah.

And I can like, and it's not freely earned. Like, it has to be earned.

So over time. Over time, multiple social events that are non sexual or not inherently fully sexual.

Yeah.

And then okay, so let's say I've gone through that process. I'm a single guy. I've now made friends in the community. I'm friends with you, I'm friends with three other people. I went to a social event, it was great. Now someone vouches for me. Then what?

Then you apply for membership. We look to your stuff. And then if you are having the right attitude about everything, then you are invited to the first party where you are required to go to orientation. So we have a very clear consent policy, how to practice it. And for first timer, they have to come to your orientation for hour, which is not a lecture for hour. We go over everything on webpages and other content already. But you come and you try, you practice it. Like practicing? Yes. Practicing no. Like different social game, like share desire. So you are way more, you are way more comfortable in sort of the social dance at a sex party.

So could we practice now? So how would you do it? Like let's say I just. This is orientation. I just sat down and I'm like, okay, I'm here. Who do I have sex with?

Well, so the first thing we teach you is the basic rule is. So this is very. It's a little tricky topic because every sex community have a different set of rules. So when I say this is what we believe in, it's not like the universal one. Like people could create any like agreement or policy they want. But at Hacienda is, you know, ask before you touch. So you have to get a verbal confirmation from this person. That is okay. But there's also different stages of flirting. Right. So you don't necessarily will go up and go like can I put my dick in your asshole? Like it is a requests. Right. But might be a little too forward. A little forward. So but we do go over like literally how to ask for what you want. So you do. We teach people how to negotiate is really key because there's a. There is. I think this is pretty Universal. We don't want to explicitly ask for what we want because we want it to be open ended so there's more possibility in our mind. And for some people, they feel like if they ask it will kill the opportunity. So they want like one thing led to another. Right. But that doesn't really work well in a like sex party situation. And I frankly, I think having the ability to negotiate will eliminate a lot of pitfall. Like, even if it's consensual, it still could be regrettable if you don't negotiate well.

Okay, so what, what would be an example of a good negotiation?

So just say if, if you are flirting with someone, right? You could start asking like, you know, your hair looks beautiful today and you're just chatting up. I'm brand new to the party. My name is Mark. I do this podcast and like, you know, how long you been in community, guys talking and then you feel a little flirty vibe and you go like, oh, you dress looks beautiful. Like, you know, can I, can I touch it? So you do some micro ask. The key is when people, you ask someone for something, you don't immediately go from like touching her dress or costume into picking, you know, putting your finger in an asshole. So the, the goal is that if you, the goal is sometime is that you still want to go for your second ass, like escalation, right. And just say you are like touching and is vibing and that person says, yes, you have like a first level agreement established. And then you go like, hey, would you like. Yeah, do you want to go to the other room and make out or whatever the case may be or oh, your breast looks really beautiful today. Can I touch it? People are really like, people went to a sex party because they want to have sex. So it's not weird that you're asking for or you could, you know, or we teach people it's okay to not know. Right. But also like have some clear expectation on what you're trying to explore. So what would you like to do today? So we really encourage people to be as explicit as possible about their requests and desire. But ultimately what makes a culture work is that at any time it's just like the 30 day money back guarantee, but you have to honor it. So if any time, no questions asked, you get your money back has to be the rule. Yeah, so just say if you opt into something and you don't really feel like it, you could politely and gracefully go like, oh, that was great, thank you, I'm good now. And then you leave and they won't harass you.

And that is what it is.

Yeah. And it's okay to feel rejected because we don't guarantee no rejection. Right. And rejection is not necessarily bad. It feels bad sometime. But you will have some nos and you have some yes. Your goal is to find the yeses and get. If it's a no, you want to get to the faster instead of like wasting a bunch of time. Yeah.

That's actually a good metric in life. Almost like get to the nose quickly just in anything. Because like the sooner you're getting no's.

Yeah.

The faster you can get to yeses even not only in sex, but in like career stuff and opportunities and business. Like you want to find business deals where people are like, not for us. And then you don't have to waste time. You go, oh great, I can go and find a business partner that wants to work with me or whatever.

Yeah. And we really, you know, we discourage people from like, if they're uncertain, just say no for now. Like, no, thank you. Because if we do want a higher level of wantedness in the situation. But you know, one of my favorite consent model that I use and I put in the book is from my colleague Dr. Janna. And it's in this excrete where you're like level wantedness. And did you signal yes or you signal no? And in any human decision is you're not always like 100% yes.

Right.

You could be in the middle. I kind of want it, but I'm not really sure. But the different in their communication and is that what did you actually signal? So we discourage from mixed signal. So you don't say maybe. I'm not sure. You go like either yes or no and clear.

Right.

And you could be anywhere in that spectrum where you like definitely don't want it. Right. I really, really want it. But sometimes you will still go to work when you really don't feel like it. But we don't want that experience at a sex party.

Yeah, that's also as important, I feel like as like a affirmative request is an affirmative yes or no. And I know like, obviously guys complain about this with women all the time. I'm sure it happens in every direction. But it'll be like, oh, this girl was like saying yes and so we kissed and then she freaked out and like ran away and called me a creep. And it's like, well, you said yes kind of. And so I took that as a yes. But you actually meant no, but you didn't want to say it, so you kind of have to teach not only how to approach someone in an affirmative way, but also teaching how to reject someone in an affirmative way.

Yeah. But you could do it gracefully with respect. And the whole idea is sometimes like, like, you know, it's tricky because the other side of, of the dark side of what I do is like the pickup artist stuff. Right. And the idea is to manipulate a situation using like sales tactic to kind of put you in a psychological trap. Then you might make a decision that you might regret later. Right. So the idea is that we don't want buyer remorse. So you, you are like showing the fine print in large print.

Right.

And we want to discourage any, you know, action that you don't want to do.

Yeah, it's really tricky. Like a lot of like pickup artist stuff. Like if anyone's not familiar with that term, it's effectively like, okay, I'm going to say exactly what I need to say in the right order in order to like kind of coerce this person into sleeping with me whether they want to or not. If I'm able to like psychologically set up the situation to where they say yes.

Yeah.

Which also isn't what you want. Like I think everyone wants to feel accepted and wanted in a sexual way, in a romantic way. And by setting up this framework, you're not actually getting accepted. You are kind of being coercive in some cases.

Yeah. You don't want to, you know, being manipulative, it just game the situation. But I actually found that if you not intentionally like lower you just, I think lowering the buyer remorse is actually more useful. Right. In a long term sexual relationship. Right. Because waiting is such a like impulse control for guys trying to hook up immediately or feel like they're losing their chances or even when they're like sexting people. It's like they want it. They want to have a sense of guarantee so they won't get rejected later or they don't feel like a sucker buying someone dinner. So it's really important to teach people that is at least this is my philosophy. It's better that they don't feel manipulated that you sold them like a used car.

Yeah. That you're just fully honest. You're like, hey, here's what my expectations are, here's what you're getting. And this is what I want from the exchange and being completely open about it versus like trying to shade things.

Even if you feel like they said yes, but you feel a level of hesitation and go like, you know, like, thank you for saying yes, but I really don't feel like it's really 100% for you yet. So maybe, you know, maybe you just hang out and take some time. If, or like, hey, if you feel more like it later, come back and check in with me. So you have another layer of people having time to evaluate and make that decision.

I feel like that requires a lot of confidence and maturity though. Like, if you're someone that is so, like looking at a sexual exchange with so much scarcity and someone says yes, but it doesn't feel enthusiastic, I think it does require, especially for men, a certain amount of confidence to be like, let's circle back to this.

But that is the better future for everyone. In order for. And this is my view, and it's really hard right right now. Like men are not doing well. Like straight men's are not doing well. They're not having sex. They really struggle with this whole process. So they have this scarcity mentality that they feel like if they don't get their meal right now, they're going to starve. Yeah, right.

Whereas women, I think just in the current social landscape don't have that same level of scarcity, at least from my perspective.

They have scarcity for the different. They have different scarcity. They could get the sex, but the sex wouldn't be good. Right. So the scarcity is where's the good sex or where the good men is at. So I do think in a world where both parties are beyond satisfied and it's a lot easier for them to get what they want. Like, a lot of men will have a lot more sex if their restaurant is good. Like, you will have a line. But the problem is that if they don't spend time developing their, their sex skill, then you always have to hunt because, like, there's no line for you if it's not good, if you're good. So making that investment to be good in bed is so useful, especially partner sex is like partner sex for women. Good partner sex is so scarce. Like, it's just not enough in the market.

So, and just really quick on the sex party thing, my perception as someone that has never gone to a sex party is it's like, okay, so let's say you get vetted in and then you show up and you're kind of flirting. I just imagine there's like a room of 100 people that are all just like banging everywhere. And it's just like this writhing, like carnal situation. Like I'm thinking like eyes wide shut, you know what I mean? Can you. Are there something like Let me just spell that. Yeah.

I would describe the party because, again.

I have no perception of what this could be.

You kind of do because you went to Burning man, right? So you're seeing people just walk around topless, like, there's no dang. So. So there's like this free expression of sexuality, and it's safe. So at Burning man, if you have your tits out, it's not like people are like, you know, like, we look, but it's not like a place where you feel, oh, I need to cover up. Right. So there's that aspect of it. And also, in order to engineer a good sex party is actually more important to make the party good. So we really do a good burner party, right. That the sex is optional and available. Just like there's food, you could eat it or not eat it. But the party has to be fun. So we have different areas where people are social, people are having a drink, people are hanging out, you know, by the hot tub or like, they're just dancing.

Is that a separate room?

Yeah, we have multiple rooms. In order to host 200 people, there's, like different rooms and different areas that people could dance, be social, spank each other to having a massive orgy, to have a smaller room.

So is it frowned upon if you were just to go and then be like, actually, I'm not really feeling it tonight, and I'm just gonna kind of have a couple drinks and eat and just talk to some people?

No, you are poor by doing what you feel like doing. Right. So no pressure to playing. Also, I actually encourage a lot of couple who never been to a play party. Not playing that first party is a smart strategy just to see how you feel. Because you could always have it later and then talk about it when you go home, you know, and talk about what came up for you is more of a. It's a better learning experience. And it's tough because we don't have that much control over what we find arousing and turn us on. You kind of have to like, it's like porn. You kind of know when you see it, right.

You sort of need exposure.

You need exposure. Yeah. Oh, it's like, I didn't know that was hot. And that's kind of weird, but hot. So sometime I really bring couples. It creates intimacy against them to really talk about their desire because otherwise, like, you don't and you're not allowed to. Right. Most of the time, like, when you have an established relationship, looking elsewhere is frown upon on. So it is a different. It's a different experience, you know?

Yeah. And then as far as, like, the actual details of, like, showing up, like, are there a lot of. In terms of the crowd? Because in my mind, also, I'm like, I'm sure you probably get, like, single dudes that. I don't know. This is my assumption. You might get single dudes that don't have a lot of sexual options, and they're like, okay, I'll just become a member and then I'll be able to bang all the time. And I might not be a guy that takes care of my body, and I might be a little overweight. And this is just my avenue to, like, getting a lot of, like, free, easy sex. And so how do you. Like, I guess it's that vouching system, but, like, how do you make sure that everyone there is, like, desirable, if that makes sense. And also, yeah, I guess, like, how do you vet that you're getting, like, the right people? Is it all through the vouching system? Is it through specific invites to be like, oh, we need this class of attractiveness? Like, how do you get rid of not attractive people? Like, how does that work?

So we do not judge people on looks.

It's really.

So that is. That's one part of what makes Hacienda special, in my view. So we have a very diverse crowd when it comes to people, like, all sorts of people. But what. What we have in common is we're here to celebrate sex. And it's a fine sense of belonging without being slutty and being curious about sex and, like, having social sexual experience. But it's also a divide people bring. Right? So what you. What you're describing is like this. This incel. Creepy guy who you want to prevent from having the party. But if you don't do the social part and make friends, right, then no one will vouch for you. So it kind of eliminate all the people who will not make friends. Because you, you're the guy who. People don't want to party. Right. So you have to kind of be the person that people want you at the party first. The surprising thing is the way more women than. Is so hard to find good guys to come to the party than women. Yeah. So. So what.

What is that? What do you think that's about?

You know, every bro, like, I'm gonna have a threesome, or like, I'm gonna go to og but when it really gets down to it, it's intimidating. You know, they talk a lot of shit until it actually happened. Right. So to fuck in front of a bunch of stranger is still a thing. So I believe so it's a common fantasy. But when it actually come to the party, it's a different story.

And you think men get more intimidated than women do in that regard?

Different. They're intimidated differently because, I mean, that's why. And this might be a gross generalization, not easier. But when a man's arousal has so much to do with like if his erections like can they stay hard, right? So there's a different level of performance anxiety when it comes to men. But men are freely clear like if they are having erection or not having erection. So there's that aspect of it and I love coaching that topic. But when it comes to women, it's different. Like they are afraid that like their performance anxiety is that I'm going to take too long, I'm going to come or I'd be self conscious. I think everybody, universally people will go through that. But it's so surprising to me that it's like way more women at the party always. But we are always on the hunt for good guys, right? In some ways sort of like the old school gentleman culture when you have like a gentleman group where we kind of hold other men accountable and behave in a more civil manner. So we just have our own culture. So we really try to have among the men to kind of like have a sort of a way to educate and train other men. Because you, you're not, you don't have to be thirsty here, really. Like it's so abundant. Yeah, right. So you don't have to hunt the same way that you would think you need to do in order to be successful.

And so do you find men kind of like police their own like masculine culture amongst each other at these parties.

Where they're like, that's what we really try so hard to do. Because sometime I, I, I coach, I work with a lot of men and coach a lot of men and there is this whole idea of this toxic masculinity, right? And definitely there's definitely assholes out there that like, you know, that cannot be reformed in any way or never wants to. Right. But I do believe there's tons of guys out there who really care about their partner's pleasure, who don't want it, want to be respectful, don't want to harm anyone, and don't want to be a shitty human at all. But sometimes they just don't know how to behave in this particular setting. So we really try to educate people even when they make mistakes, like, okay, it's okay, like it's your first time, but this made this person uncomfortable or whatever. And then you go, like, why don't you do it this way? So we, it's not just banning. It's like, we try to educate more than like. Like when you're trying to educate someone, but if they're defensive, they're not open to it, then then that's the wrong character. Right, Right. But we approach it as someone who's not always intentionally doing something malicious with their intent. And obviously it depends on the level of violation. But we really want to educate more than just blacklisting people.

Right. So if someone is like, you know, at like a level two phase, they're like making out with a girl and then they get like, too touchy and she goes, oh, I'm gonna leave. Then that's where you'd come in and be like, oh, you were actually a little too touchy in that situation. Maybe try this different way.

Yeah, I'll ask. Like, you know, if you want to escalate, you know, check in, it might be a good idea. You know, and also it's also saying thank you when someone wants to exit rather than like, fuck you, why are you leaving? You know, it's like just being grateful for the experience, for that person. Setting a boundary. Right. And respecting that boundary. Because we know how hard is actually saying no to people in general. Right. And some, like, depending on your level of disagreeableness in your personality trait. So some. And a lot of people are not so comfortable saying no. So we want to create an environment that is as comfortable as we could make it about stating yes and no. Right. And being accepted or rejected is part of the experience. But it's also, most of the time is it will work out.

Yeah.

Because there's a. There's abundance of people available.

Right. So. So at your events that you would do back in the day and at Hacienda. It's Hacienda, right?

Yeah.

So at Hacienda. Now, what is this? The policy as far as like testing STDs, condoms, like, how does that work?

So we have safer sex protocol. We always have a safer sex apply at the party. Like gloves, condoms, lube pads, like everything that you would need for a hygiene and barrier protection standpoint. And as far as your, your sexual health status, we expect the members to know and people are encouraged and trained to have those dialogue just go like, when was the last time you got tested? What is your current status? And then you are responsible, stating your, your boundary or your requirement when it comes to your sexual health. So we here's all those sexual health protocol that you could, you could opt into. But it is your responsibility to ask if you go like, hey, I really don't feel comfortable having sex with someone who have xyz, it is really way more safer for you to be the one who's asking than waiting for other people to disclose.

Got it. So while you're in sort of like that that I feel like that would in my perspective that would mess up the vibe. Like if you're making out some girl and then all of a sudden you're like, are you clean? Like you know what I mean? Like so how would you bring that up? Like if you're in a sex party one on one with someone, we want.

People to intentionally kill the vibe. For those not kill the vibe. But it's okay to be awkward and kill the vibe because the price of not killing the vibe is actually too high in my view. Right. So you should. Checking is good. So it's actually a little bit of impulse control and a little bit of like you are doing things that might lower your chances for you to have a safer time.

What would you say if you were hooking up with someone and you're like making out? How would you bring that up?

How would I bring that up personally?

Yeah.

I would just say, hey, the last time I got tested is xyz, what was yours? That's it. I disclose my. And then I ask.

Got it.

So we train people to do that so they have practice saying that and then is an option and expect it. And some people are more risk like they, their risk tolerance is higher and lower. So we don't. So that's why it's really hard to preach. There's only one standard on how to practice that. If you are comfortable with that level of risk, then it's up to you. But you should know your level of, of your risk tolerance and what is your requirement so you could communicate that clearly with another person. Got it. And that doesn't happen in the real world except like when you have a culture. But in the long, in the long run it really works out a lot better that you could have a lot more sex. Much safer in order to do that. So.

So you would ask about testing status and then you'd be like, do you want me to use a condom or something? And then they would say yes or no. And then you could operate with or without one if you wanted.

Yeah. So you always, you always just say, you know, you stating your boundary and it's really important to get clear on what you are comfortable with and what you are willing to opt into. So we make people think. Right. So if I like if I was going to invite you a party, I would go like, hey, what is your sexual health status? You know, and what are you comfortable with? I would talk to you like you know, and you should think about it before you talk. Play with someone.

Right.

Because it's a big concern for a lot of people who go to sex parties.

Yeah. I feel like most people just in the regular world don't really think about that. They're just like I got tested in college once and I think I'm fine. And I just don't want to hook up with anyone with diseases. Like that's what most people, I feel like.

Yeah, but they rolled, they rolled the dice that way. Right. And some people are more comfortable rolling the dice. So it depends on the person. But we always tell people to respect your risk tolerance.

Yeah. Have you heard of this term bug hunter?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can you explain what that is?

If I, if my memory serves me is back in the 80s when A's is full blown. Right. And the idea if I haven't like my friends are dying, if I catch it, then I have to worry about getting it. So it's like if I got it then I don't have to worry about their idea of getting it. Is a thing for at a. You know, it is a behavior that happened when people are intentionally trying to get STI so they feel closer potentially or eliminate some anxiety. And I'm not recommending this. I'm just describing. Yeah. Describing someone who might have that desire.

Does that, that, does that still happen?

Really?

It's not really like an accepted thing within like the, the sex positive community.

You don't think also right now in 2023 there's not any really major STI that is so like life altering.

Yeah.

That people die or have like severe symptom all the time. And also has to do with your genetic cards. Right. Like people who suffer have to deal with herpes. Some people have like one outbreak their whole life and some people have outbreak every weekend. So like you kind of dealt with those cards too. And is. Is different. Like there is level of risk that you could engage in depending on the type of sex. So you could always have a sex with a condom on. It does not guarantee everything but it, you know, and it, and also it's how good you are sticking with your safer sex protocol. So on the education side, how good are you sticking with having those conversations with people. So if you are really like low risk tolerance, right? Like I don't want anything happen to you, then it's definitely your responsibility to stay everything. But if you don't care about shit, then you go free to roll the dice. So not everybody at a party will always have those conversations. But I think it's extremely important for the people who really worry about it to have it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Now, have you ever had famous people or like really well known people go to parties?

Yeah, that obviously I cannot share. Of course, of course.

But like how does that work? If everyone walks in, they go, oh, that famous guy or girl is here. Like, is there a different protocol for them? How does like does it or is it just the same kind of rules?

It depends. I think it really depends. When would they ever wear like a.

Mask like this again? Is my eyes wide shut?

Yeah, there's. There's different organization or party organizer all over the world, so. But unfortunately, sometime like the higher the status, the more transactional and more boring the sex party.

Oh really?

So if you have a party that is mostly like funded by a bunch of rich guy, then you will end up having that kind of vibe, right? Like they're there. Even if it's not purely sex, work transaction is still like, like it's not as fun as the people who are actually just down to fuck.

Interesting.

Because they want to fuck you, right? For just a fucking bit.

Oh, that's so funny. Because in my mind, everyone's dream is like, okay, I show up at the sex party and there's like models and actresses and famous people and there's rich guys and blah, blah, blah. In your experience, those can sometimes be not as fun.

Also when it's too pretty, it's not fun really. Then it becomes, it becomes like you're just prancing around to look good. Like that's different than people who like, dude, like embody the sex. Enjoying the sex is very different than trying to look good. So status does not like it helps in. Obviously status is great in many levels in life, but at a sex party it's kind of really equalizing. But it's because it's kind of hard to be a dick when your dick is out, you know? So it's very equalizing when you are just dealing with this aspect of your humanity, right. And so it's more important than how you treat people. Like if you're kind, right, you are good in a social situation and your sex is pleasurable, then you will be valued in this particular environment.

Oh, interesting. So it equalizes all the other social benefits in real life, which is like attractiveness, wealth, all those things. But once you're in this new arena, if you're not a generous lover or you're being creepy, whatever, you. Regardless of all those other status indicators, those things will go away.

Yeah. Or they still. It doesn't. It still has its benefit. Right. Like, I don't want to eliminate, like completely eliminate it. But the issue is, for some people, if you. If your bedroom game is lacking and it does not matter how much all the other stuff, like you could be Jeff Bezos. Right. It's not like you want to outsource a sex to another person. He wants to be the one doing it. And no matter how good he is at running his empire, it does not translate to the bedroom.

Interesting.

So it doesn't matter. You. Gordon Ramsay in the kitchen. Right. Like, the bedroom is a very specific place.

Gordon Ramsay in the bedroom.

Yeah, yeah. So you have to. And it's so valuable. Like, I look at 20, 23, as, you know, as equalities continue to change and more women are making more money and just. And they're beating our ass. Right. Like the growth of that, then less women will seek out just for like, financial support or protection. So the only thing that is still left valuable is great partner sex. That you treat people with kindness. Right. And that skill will be highly priced in the marketplace. The way I see it as we move forward.

Interesting. Yeah. As women are more liberated, they could.

Buy their own house. Right. They could drive their own car, they could afford their own bodyguard and whatever the case may be. But if you don't have that skill. Right. And you know, you are way above the line. When she cannot have that experience by herself, she cannot have it with anyone else, and she could have it with you, then it really class you in a different box.

Yeah, exactly. Regardless of anything else.

Anything. Yeah. And also, like, you shouldn't be a, like, complete out of shape, broke person too. I'm not saying that those things are not important, but, like, we undervalue sex skill that way.

Yeah, Yeah. I guess. Back in the day, I wonder, would you agree with this idea that, like, men were able to get away with more mediocre sex because women relied on men more, and so they were just able to be like, okay, I'm just going to like, bang you. I'll come real quick. It doesn't matter because you got to stick around for, you know, money, house, car, all the other stuff.

Yeah. And Then so because of that, power dynamic will continue to shift.

Right.

Then really great partner sex is. Where is that?

Yeah, it's interesting. Okay, and so how do like drugs play into this also? Because in my mind I'm like, okay, you gotta be on Viagra. You gotta be taking like male performance enhancing things. There's probably people that are drinking. Like people might be too drunk. I'm sure people are doing like Molly and other like psychedelic drugs. Like enhance the experience. Is there a clear policy as far as like drug use and how that's used?

No, open drug use. More sober, more fun. We're not here to sell you alcohol. Like, if you are grossly intoxicated is a red flag and you get like, we might like tell you to skip a couple party if you get grossly intoxicated.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So we do not encourage any gross intoxication. If you are too high, too drunk, too sleepy, we send your ass home. If you are too intoxicated, we'll put you in a waiting room till you're sober enough and send your ass home.

For men and for women, for anybody.

It does not matter because we want like, we want to create an environment where we reduce harm as much as possible. And it's still very difficult because in any institution, like if you're in a financial institution, there'd be financial crime. Right. If you're in a sex situation, there will be like foul play or like. So we try to lower and lower that as much as possible and deal with it as it comes up. But it's more about engineering a good time. And ironically, it's actually about being overly like, have maximum disclosure, clarity, communication, embrace some awkwardness in order to actually have a good time.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's like one of those things that people get into a marriage. Right. Without signing any prenup because they end the romance phase. We want to eliminate the romance bit. We're kind of like, prenuping is a good idea.

Interesting. Yeah. You're like, okay, let's get all the paperwork done. Everyone's going to be on the same page. This is what everyone's getting into. Like drugs, alcohol. Like try to mitigate that as much as possible.

Have a. Build an exit strategy.

Yeah, yeah. Be as cogent as possible. Experience so that you can get the most out of it for whatever you want.

We even have like very clear policy. If you have a call where you find your money, like, we don't want you to come if you have a call. Like, that's not good for us. You know what I mean? But other if you're running a normal club, you go like, I don't care, you bought the ticket. So we do stuff that is not at our profit interest for, for their, for the party. And we are very fortunate because we do the party as a way to serve the community. It's not a profit driven thing, it's just a thing that we really enjoy doing and we kind of figure out a business model that kind of work to serve the community. But like, as far as running the party concerned, profit is definitely not above anything else. Like it's people first when it comes to that.

Yeah. And I know that like with, I'm curious, like with 200 people, how many, like, I don't even know what the term would be, but like organizers, like how many people are there that are not participating, that are sort of like supervising, making sure everything's safe and then handling those people that'll be too drunk or you know, too aggressive, things like that. How many people?

We have a huge team, you know, we have like trained staff and volunteers and we train our volunteers because we call it guardians who kind of like around wearing a light up armband. So you could clearly see that person is a guardians. And the guardians is to serve any like dispute or it's not like a bouncer who's trying to hunt you down. It's not the vibe we want. But anytime you feel uncomfortable or you need someone to talk to or you want to negotiate something, there's someone to help you and monitor. So there is. There's guardians everywhere and then there's holes, there's cleaning crew, there's people who just like we spend a lot of time trying to get the hygiene right. Like we change the sheets and stuff like that. So I'm a nerd, so I really like engineering those things. Like what is the user interface would be like in this situation?

So let's say there's a guy that's too drunk and he's like kind of in the corner like falling asleep. If you're at the party, you could go to a guardian and be like, hey, I think that guy had too much to drink.

Exactly.

The guardian would kind of go over, be like, hey, are you okay? Let's go in this room, get you some water, sober you up and then assess if they're able to go back or if they should leave.

Yeah, got it. Actually, we mostly err the side of caution than risk in that size. So hey, maybe you should take it another night. Even if we question you, is yeah, we just. Yeah, low actually in our case we are quite low risk tolerance for that.

Yeah.

For that type of scenario. So. And also sometimes it's important to have other people to talk to. And it's weird, people are so friendly at sex parties for, for strange reason because you know what it's like when you go to an environment like this, your first time. So you always remember your first experience when you're trying to like find yourself. And I really like Bernays Brown definition of belonging versus fitting in, right? So like fitting in is about like what is their sort of like how do I act like everybody else in this group. And belonging is about your, your internal sense of your desire and what you want, who you want to be. So we want to develop a culture where you are celebrated to be yourself. And the only fitting in part is being respectful of boundaries and like don't be an asshole. Right.

And how do you deal with people that might be, that are sort of on the outside of the membership? So like let's say there's someone that went to a few of these mixers and they didn't have the right energy or they were too aggressive and they didn't get vouched in. Has you. Have you ever had someone that like shows up on the day of and they're like hey, let me in. And they're like sorry, we can't. Or like someone that you had to kick out because they got too drunk and then they get aggressive or they get. There's like a dispute has that happened?

It happens, but not often, you know, because we put so many like sort of little hurdles along the way and it's kind of stupid for a business, right? Like we inhibit growth, you know, but it is better product long term or better community experience. So like so in the beginning when we decided to be more public facing because it used to be just a private group of friends who just like to have orgies and it's like a fun thing to do. And then it grew and grew and there's more people want to do it and, and then my, the other co founder, other co founder or founder Andrew and Beth, both of them who just go like wow, we want to share this with more people. So we have to figure out how to do this in a larger scale. And it became sort of like from a hobby to something that go like this is so fulfilling to do because yeah for someone to find something that they didn't know that is, that's so sexually arousing for them and they have an outlet for it that is healthy for them is. Is really. I think it's really special.

Yeah. Now let's say you're still operating within all of the, like, accepted boundaries of the community. Inevitably there will be people that will use sex as like a crutch or they might be a sex addict. I'm curious, is there any like. Like, if you had a friend that was going really frequently and maybe not taking care of themselves in other ways, or maybe like neglecting parts of their personal life because they are a sex addict, how do you have that conversation? Has that ever happened before? Like, how do you. How do you mitigate that?

I think.

Or is it not your responsibility to like, negotiate? Like, if someone's like addicted to going to the gym? Like, I don't think I would go up to someone and be like, hey man, you're going to the gym too much. So I'm curious, do you feel like it's your responsibility?

It depends if I know this person personally too. But the idea of a addict is like, it has to me, addict has to be. That is causing a significant dysfunction in other areas of their life that is important to them or essential. So if they like, they're not eating to go to a sex party or they're not like, I don't know, calling them, I don't know, I'm not calling their mother. But whatever, you know, whatever it is, like they're destroying their lives for this addiction is very different behavior. I also think what. How much sex becomes addictive. Yeah. I think everybody think they could have way more sex than they could. But like, there is a natural governing drive. And that's one of the fun equalizer when it comes to a sex party that we don't experience anymore in society. Because when you have a dating app. Right. And I'm sure you heard some of the statistics, like maybe the top 20% or 5% men get all the girls. If I put that guy at the sex party, even if he's the hottest badass shit out there, he could only fuck so much. Right. So there's no. He's not. He's not like one serving 80.

Like in that one night, he might have like two tries, maybe three or something.

Yeah. So it regulates itself.

Interesting.

So there is enough to eat for everyone given average hunger for everybody. Every person in there. And like, some people are truly insatiable and they could do it over again. But at least for most male, we're governed by our sex drive and our horm. So it is what it is. So you can't eat all the food. Yeah.

That's literally.

But on apps you could talk to everybody. Right.

But even then you can only go on so many dates. I guess. Right. Like there's still a governor in that regard.

Yeah, but not under, I guess the marketing, advertising or the prospecting. So when you have technology you could do it at such a massive scale. Right. And then their algorithm also favor you. But in. Yeah in real life human interaction, it really does play out the way it's supposed to.

Yeah. I'm curious, what are your thoughts as far as like dating app culture? Like do you use dating apps? Did you, do you still use them? Yeah. And what like do you feel like it has negatively affected the dating marketplace? Like in the real world?

Yeah, definitely changed or sort of their mating dynamic or dating dynamic between people when. What is this Scott Galloway, I think I remember his name correctly. The way he talk about technology consolidating. You know the industry is like there used to be car service everywhere and then Uber Lyft just kind of killed it kind of thing. Right. So they will be hyper successful people at an app. So then. And because if, if majority of women are talking to the smallest percentage of men because they are bombarded with a million options.

Yeah.

It's different when you add a real life situation. But I think it's called, I think in some way is causing a lot of. Maybe it's unintentional harm. You know, I don't think they're out there to engineer the app that way.

Right. But it's sort of a byproduct of scaling dating.

Yes. Because you don't actually see your option or your, you actually your, your idea of the market is so skewer, you know, because you know it's like everybody you could look at every house in the neighborhood is very different than you could only is no more proximity based or community based in that sense.

Yeah.

So I think a lot of men find it very difficult because if they're on the percentage of doesn't get much, you know, action on abs. It's quite difficult. And personally I still is not like at this point I kill on apps, you know, like I still deal it, still work, work it like everybody else. But I also find meeting people in person quite fulfilling because you kind of eliminate a lot of the bullshit.

Yeah, of course. I have so many friends that are like, you know, I was much more successful with women before dating apps because I'm charming and I'm funny and I have like, you know, I'm. I'M a good energy when I'm around them. But I'm not like necessarily a 10, you know, I'm like not the most attractive guy. I'm not in perfect shape, but I'm just like a really fun guy to hang with and I'm like really giving. But as soon as the dating apps come in, it just kind of turns it into the opposite kind of of what you were saying with the sex parties that like it is purely based off like esthetic.

Yep. And status. Like are you wearing this watch at this beach at which this people. So you're only using most basic attraction cue. Right. That are not necessarily give you the right signal that this person is high quality. Yeah.

Even like pheromones and shit. Like I'm sure you've seen those studies where it's like, okay, we had you know, 100 women like rank 100 men and then we had them like smell their shirt and the ranking that they put on was different than what the shirt smelling was. But in certain cases, like they could tell the attractiveness based off of like the shirt smell. Like even just like the raw pheromones, you can. You're losing that level of like basic attraction.

And also if they're on birth control, like there's so many.

Isn't that wild? Yeah. I just read that study the other day. It was like women that are on birth control because of the release of progesterone, which is the active ingredient. A lot of like oral birth controls which basically like simulates pregnancy. It simulates pregnancy in your body. And as a result, women that are pregnant will look for men that are more stable. And when they're off birth control, they have different taste in men.

Yeah.

I thought that was so fascinating.

It's crazy, you know, Attraction, it's like, you know, I think because of technology and how world is changing. You could watch a Burger King commercial, right. And you know that fucking burger is complete shit. But you still feel like that looks delicious.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of things that fools our. Our ability to make good judgment because it just looks shiny. And we have, you know, we have a lot of built in like what drives us on attraction. But it's not always high quality. So mate selection is like way more important. And unfortunate thing is the other side for. I forgot what the study. I forgot what that exact study. But the idea is for a woman to go on a straight woman to go on a dating app. They go like, wow, if we're gonna go through all this trouble, I want to get the best of the best. Right. So they want the best looking guy, the best richest guy. Because you are dealing with their like this pool. So. So you were trying to find the best within, you know, what you could able to get. Yeah. So that shopping experience is very different than men. Right. Like, but that very couple of different. But that 5% of men would get the same experience. So it doesn't help. It really doesn't help.

Yeah.

And then for the men who have all their selection power, don't want to treat any of those women well because he's flooded with the same dilemma. Right. I have unlimited supply. Why should I invest in you? Right. That's so interesting. So yeah, and I get how that.

Technological issue has sort of enabled a culture. I think of like really frustrated dudes. Like, like the manosphere, you've heard that term before, like has become this massive Internet bubble of men that have animosity and anger towards women. And obviously like incel culture comes out of that. I'm curious, what are your thoughts as far as like incel culture, manosphere, like this male animosity towards women for, you know, getting with Chads, so to speak, and not wanting to hook up with just like regular dudes.

I think it's in some way really misguided. Right. But I also could totally relate because for most of my life I was, I know somehow I'm lucky not to be an incel, like I'm really sexual person, but I was cripplingly insecure. I mean I'm literally there's chances I could have got lay when I was a teenager, but I was like, oh my, I don't have a porn star cock. So when a girl reached for my hands, I would push their hand away. Like I was the one who's reject myself most of my like late teens to early 20s. And so I know what it's like to be on that low. I can't do anything to make this part of my life work. No women are attracted to me. And then you grow bitter and angry and then you start forming, you know, you subscribe to ideology that explain your pain and then you just buy into the whole mindset. And I'm so happy and so glad that I did discovered as another way.

Yeah. I'm curious, can you explain where you grew up?

I was born in Hong Kong, so I moved to the state when I was 11 and because of my dyslexia I perfected bad English and bad Chinese simultaneously. So it's like really awkward to communicate with people really hard to learn the language. And also because of that, when you are at, you know, 11 here, start watching I know, hardcore Internet porn 12, 13 here. And it's like, oh, all monster porn star cocks. Are you thinking, oh for my average, this is never going to make it. Right. So you start thinking the sexual marketplace is like being in the NBA, right? Yeah. Like if you are five, nine, you basically useless.

Yeah. I'm curious for you, was there a racial dynamic also? Like, like there's no Asian dudes in porn. Really. It's just like white dudes with six packs, black dudes with six packs. And that's kind of it.

Yeah, yeah. So because of that representation and Asian men been like these actualized for so.

Long, I think they had swiped on less on like dating apps. I've seen those studies. Like it'll be like Asian and Indian men will get swiped on at a lesser rate.

Yeah, absolutely. And I still feel that some sometime. But I guess when you are like now I'm like kind of a unicorn of a person. So it bypass a little bit of that. But I know what it's like to feel so rejected that you just feel like the world is your enemy. And it's unfortunate because there's such a high demand for, you know, like they talk about difference between men who have given up on themselves versus being an average man. As in like you are. What I mean by average is that you are going out there and making a living. Right. And you're taking care of yourself in a reasonable, you know, way. Not that you only play video game and £400 and have never talked to a female in your, in your life. Very different story.

That's not average, I don't think.

Yeah, so, so. And I know from my own experience that like I think for most men they really like, I wish I'm taller than six feet of a six pack and have a greater than six figure income or a six plus inch. I call it the 666. But the 666 is actually a lie in so many ways because although those quality could get you in the door, it's not very like it doesn't sustain. If you want a long term happy relationship with anyone.

Yeah.

Or even multiple sexual encounter all the time. That's just not the thing that really does it.

Yeah, we had Dr. Huberman. He's great. And he said something on the podcast when we had him on that was like so obvious and like every woman listening was like duh. But he said basically like the greatest indicator in terms of Like a long term relationship or like men that will have multiple partners is kindness.

Yeah.

Which sounds like so dumb. Like every girl listening is like, yeah, don't be an asshole and we'll like you. But for guys, for whatever reason, I'm not sure if it comes from like media or from porn or a mixture of things, but we, I think a lot of men do have a perception that like, okay, earn a lot of money, be hot. I can get anyone I want. I'll be happy forever.

Yeah. And I had the same mentality when I was in my 20s. I was like, okay, I cannot grow a bigger. So let me try to get a six pack.

You tried though, right? You tried the gas station pills?

Yeah, I try everything. And. And I did get the six pack and made enough money to get a girlfriend, but it did not eliminate the internal sexual insecurity. And I think until I actually overcome that, that obstacle, then that's when everything changed in the sex life department and other parts of my life. And it's tricky because when they say kindness, they think like a yes man who is nice. Yeah, it's very different. Kindness is different. Kindness is that you choose to do the kind thing even when you don't feel like it.

And yeah, that's not, it's not transactional.

It's not being a doormat.

Yeah.

You know, like doormat kind of nice. And the other side is when you really look into sexuality, you have to be able to access their arousing bad boy part simultaneously. Because in a sexual, negotiated sexual situation, certain behavior, like what we opened this podcast with like gang doing a spank ranking is hot. But if I tell you, Omar, like, you like to hit women completely out of context. So if you put it in the right context and the right behavior. So certain behavior from creating arousal and turn on attraction is important and it is preference in the bedroom. But you could have both. You could do really naughty things, also be really kind at the same time.

Yeah. And it's interesting because I think women want that in men and I think simultaneously men want them in. I think Sigmund Freud, the psychologist, has this thing called the Madonna whore complex. Have you heard of this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So effectively the way he describes it is like men want the Madonna, like the perfect, pure, motherly woman that can raise their children. That is nurturing, kind. And they simultaneously want a whore, which is like someone that will do like naughty things and devious sexual acts. And I think women kind of look for similar things in men, but it's effectively finding someone that can appease all sides of you and, and the complexity of the human condition both in like kindness and nurturing and sweetness, but also like sexual excitement and like aggression and like sort of this like monkey brain, lizard brain, like internal carnal like primitive thing. And I, I think oftentimes men will misjudge that in women and they'll like, you know, find their Madonna and then never bring up any sexual behaviors with her and then cheat with, you know, a prostitute. And they'll almost like segment those parts of their lives where I think if they were more open sexually, they could easily find that in a person, in one singular person and have a fulfilling like monogamous life if they wanted to, without having to supplement. And some people also could probably supplement it in polyamorous relationships and things like that.

I think their eastern philosophy and comes to like sort of the yin and yang balance. Having access to both is really important. But it's having like so many other teacher have talked about is having that power under voluntary control with ethics. Right. So if you are just a doormat, nice guy, not very good. If you just asshole, not very good. But you able to, but you want to be able to be the asshole when there's an invasion. Right. Like you need to access that part of yourself. Yeah.

You need to be able to correct an injustice.

So it's not wrong for those attraction cue to be designed into us to look for people who have those things and they're quite arousing, but it's given the wrong context or the wrong. Not wrong. But like if you don't have it in involuntary control or you over leaning on one side or the other, then it's problematic. But we all kind of sort of have the ratio. So you. I like I forgot Joe Rogan episode talked about being a, a warrior in a garden versus being a gardener at war. So you definitely want to have that.

Yeah. Can you, can you expand on that, that little aphorism? I really like that.

Yeah. So if you're a warrior, meaning you could fight, but it's really nice that you could fight and chill in a garden. But if you're a gardener who cannot fight, then you're fucked in a war. So you want to develop that aspect of yourself. Right. And you know, and BDSM kinky fantasy is really popular. It's not like as low in when it. So group sex then kink. Like that's the sexual fantasy that like most people are attracted to or aroused by the idea but. But not being educated know how to execute it. Right. And then narrate the fantasy. It's not very different than watching movies and film we love, like, danger, stress, anxiety, violence, fear. So. So to me, sex could be curated that you are writing this movie, and it's sometimes a different genre. Like, you know, you could be your romantic candlelight lovemaking bit, or you could be like. Like, fuck me at a fancy restaurant bathroom and call me a whore. Like, it's. It's just different flavor of a movie. And most of the time, we try to enter a sexual experience into a place where you could fantasize and enjoy yourself. And it's like theater. Like, so to me, having BDSM and kink skill is like, you able to curate an experience that has layer and complexity to the drama. Yeah. It's not just like, okay, put your genital in this and line it up like is right. That's the fun part.

It's a part of, like, a sexual narrative, so to speak.

Yeah. And it could be quite artistic and beautiful when it's done. When it's done. And you're also expressing yourself because everybody have their own unique sort of pleasure personality. You know, what arouses them, the narrative that turns them on.

Yeah, yeah. And your story, I just think is really interesting to me because I think it is not, unfortunately, super uncommon that I think that there are a lot of, like, not only, like, immigrant kids, but just, like, kids that grow up in the states that see porn early on, get this perspective of sex that I think is really warped. They never really talk about sex, like, with their families. And then in your case, like, coming from a different country. Where'd you move to in the.

In the US I moved to Brooklyn first.

Okay. Yeah, so you moved to Brooklyn, which again, I guess is a little more diverse, but still, like, you know, you might have a little bit of an accent. You're like a Chinese kid from Hong Kong, and, like, you're not knowing exactly where to fit into the sexual marketplace. Did you have experiences early on with rejection that had any. Like, it gave you animosity towards women?

I think more of a pain of rejection. But I think my early childhood strategy was to reject myself before they have the opportunity to reject me. Right. So that. But then you still feeling rejected. No matter if you actually did not get rejected, you just feel that is, like, safer and less painful, but the results are the same.

It's a defense mechanism.

It's defense mechanism for sure, to deal with insecurity. And I did. I think there was one particular girlfriend just said, oh, I just. I Like it a lot better with my ex. And that was like quite painful. I was quite in love with her at that time too.

Oh gosh.

And then at that time I'm just thinking, oh, this guy has to have like a bigger cock or whatever. The thing is that I could think of to, you know, spiral into this dark place and then got like, like I found Hacienda the community and Andrew and Beth and just kind of opened up my whole world and I realized good sex is so diverse and like, then you start to learn to eliminate those myths. Like, bigger is better, is really about like fit, you know, it's like your feet to a shoe.

Yeah.

And majority, like most people are not 7ft tall, you know, and, and, and so actually most people stuff work well with, with each other and. Yeah. And then learning all this, learning all the different skill that you could improve your sex life have like, and it's. You know what's crazy is that when most people listen to me and I talk about my cock size, you just think, oh, I became really good in bed to compensate for lack that I see in myself.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Right. Yeah. And what I realized over time is that there was nothing to compensate. And that is the best gift that I could ever give myself because I realized, oh, there's an advantage to having my cock. So if I did actually end up having a 12 inch cock. Right. That is so not anal friendly. Right. So I have sex with. So I have so much. You know, I got into so many butts because I feel anal friendly. It works most of the time. But like, so there's problems with either extreme. Right. Like if you have the micro penis to the, you know, the monster cock, they all have their problem. Although those are kind of pretty extreme case. We're talking about 2% of the population on either side.

Yeah.

Right. So most people, and, and most people are in the middle. But, but back in the day, go like I always think, oh, if I was a little bit taller, if I was a little bigger. But I realized that it does not inhibit my sex life whatsoever. I am puffer by a certain population of the people and their monster is puffer by a very small percentage of women.

Yeah, right. Yeah. You said something that was very funny on a different podcast. But you're like, size doesn't always matter and if it was the case that women only preferred bigger penises, they would all have like 12 inch dildos.

Yeah.

And that's not the case.

And that's not the best selling dildo. But vibrator works way, you know, they buy way more vibrators and dildos.

Yeah.

Not that saying cock is not a fun tool in the bedroom. But I have learned so many things, you know, like. And if I over talk about my cock side, since I'm just a passionate about. I've seen so many like guys suffer their entire life from a myth. So I'm like really passionate about getting people to stop thinking that. And one of, one of the things that like I love nerding out about is that I think every man, every straight man really want to want their dick to be the key to her lock that like unlocks everything. It's like the perfect thing, you know, that, that it works perfectly. And while most people only emphasize on like how hard they could get and how big it is and how long they could last, but that's not usually what creates the most pleasurable or having the best orgasm. So I have learned that, oh, if someone who would never have an internal orgasm. And I'm not saying everyone needs to, but there's ways to do it. And I have learned how to use my cock to give that experience to more people than I could count.

Right.

So. And not that that is the most important thing, but it's a skill. Is. And so you could have the equipment, so you could have a F1 car. Right. But if you don't know how to drive it, I could still beat you in my Honda. Right. You crash it. Right. That's a skill. But. But we still thinking that you, you're the F1 car. Because you are. They're 2% alchemia cyst. And it's so not true.

But I will say though, if I had to pick one of the two percents.

Yeah.

I would pick the bigger 2% than the micro penis.

Yeah. And there's a good reason. There's a, there's a good reason for it too, because like what we talked about, and Andrew Huberman talked about that too about visual cue. So when we look at something when it looks bigger or this car looks like it's moving, when it's not moving, there is a very potent dry for our visual system. So like that Burger King burger. Right. So we override a lot of like it's good marketing when things just like the thing you want looks bigger.

Yeah.

So. But it's not always better. And it's very, it's very funny when, like when you, when you sleep with someone, you go like, I'm not the most attracted to this person sometime, but they just so got them good in bed.

Yeah.

You know, or. But I think, I think especially preferences, people were grown to really love and like a person when they have more exposure to their balance between kindness and assertiveness. And then also skills like, can you actually, like, if you make her a meal, is it actually delicious? Right.

Right. Yeah. Now, I will say though, with like the micro penis thing, that does seem kind of unfortunate. Like, if you are one of the 2% of people that just when it's hard, it is an inch.

Yeah.

What, like, what can those people do?

I talked about it in my book. Right. Like, like, what do you do on either extreme end? And there's people who prefer it. So first of all, like, you have to make this assumption that every. Just say if that micropenis male is a straight male and looking for another straight woman, he has to assume that every straight woman, all they ever desire is to be banged by a penis to have orgasm. And that is, it's common. But there's many women who do not ever get off from penetration, period. So your dick don't do much. In fact, that whenever you like, when you start fucking, they're like tuning out. Like, for a lot of people, they're, they're just penetrative. Sex is not the thing that does it for them. So you have to, you have to find yourself pairing right. With someone who prefer, like, that's not what their biggest turn on is. So it's really about finding someone who you match with. And there will be a percentage of people that will match you. It's much harder when you're on either extreme side, just like anything else.

Exactly.

For that marketplace. But you could, you could fuck like a beast with any size, depending on the person you pairing with. So there's a lot of. I mean, there's enough people who do not, like, do not prioritize. Like, that is the number one sex act that it really, really does it for them.

Right. So if you have a micro penis and you link with a girl, that's like, I need penetration that is probably not going to be, oh, I need.

A penetration bigger than what you have.

Right.

And not good pairing, but that's not.

Going to be sexual compatibility. But if you find someone that's like, I don't really care about penetration, like, if it's good for you, that's great, but I need something else, some other type of stimulation. And if you can do that, then we're good.

Yeah. So. And that happens out there all the time. And then there is the pain of the people who have like their extreme large too, they have to find someone with a larger vagina. And we don't talk about that. Right. Where do you park this Big Mac truck? Not in a tiny garage. You know, calling baby. There's no such pairing. Although it's flexible. That garage is stretchy. But there is an actual natural size that you could measure vagina. And when I wrote on the book is pairing like what are the percentage of people matches and majority people match. And that's what we learned. But there is some extreme large vagina that are more accommodating to a 12 inch cock. And that's why they. In order to do porn you kind of have to have those equipment in order to make it work.

Andrew. So be grateful for averageness is really. That's the point.

You're the majority.

If you're average, you are the most compatible with the most people.

Yeah.

And average is what? Like what is an average penis size?

5.6 in the study. So. So any. So if you, you start. If you're above 6 inches you start curving out of bell curve. For most people sit in the 4.5. 4.4. 4.5 to 5.6 is most people on the planet.

Yeah.

And then you have people. But you don't see that in. You see that more in sex party when you start looking around. Right. Because I see a lot more penises because of what I do for a living and the community I'm into. You see that actually statistically that is the world. It's not what people think. So their perception is so scared from watching porn because all you see is that. Right. So. And then you expect it to. Yeah. So. And how many. How many women look like porn star too, you know?

Yeah.

Really look like porn stars. So there is a percentage of humans that are like that.

Yeah. I do think there is a sort of like an implicit negativity with porn in that regard that it is like the predominant sex education in the United States and probably around the world.

It's not meant to be sex education. And I feel for the porn staring. Sign up to be sex educator. But unfortunately mimicking porn is sort of the go to place for a lot of people.

Yeah. And I guess, I mean in your case it was fairly negative if that's the only representation of sex that you have. Like did your family talk about sex when you were growing up? No, not at all.

Not at all.

And I'm the same way. We never. In my house. It never came up. My parents had seven kids and they Were like, they were dropped off. Like it never came up.

Yeah. So. Yeah. So only seeing that, that's why I was so passionate about putting my content out there. Because I want to be on video representing. Like, I'm not pre. Like, there's one thing about me teaching and preaching this, but I literally show people I'm doing it in. In like real time. Yeah. So I think that's way more important to. For people to see someone else doing it and not. It's not a performance. Like, you know, when you make porn and I've been on porn set, that is like, it's like being on the Fast and furious set. You know, like all the driving stunts are not real.

Right.

And it's cut in a certain way and it's produced in a certain way. And that's okay for entertainment and arousal value, but that's not how sex really go down. So I really, I really try my best to show people a diverse point of view when it comes to, like, sexual interaction. And different people have different preferences. So if I'm demoing something, I demo it with different people. I go like, well, she really likes it super light. And this one could like you as a power queen. And you could see two different people. That's why you never use your ex girlfriend's map to navigate your new girlfriend's neighborhood. Like, it's really, really important because it could be so different.

It's a great analogy.

Yeah.

Yeah. I do think guys will do that with their. Like, I figured it out. I figured out chicks. I know how they work. You know how one girl works? Yeah, you gotta restart maybe, or maybe you don't have to, but you should try to renavigate the. The sexual interaction.

But it's so funny because when I was studying all this stuff and being a super nerd, I was like, there's a better answer than every woman is different. There has to be like, how the hell you coach someone or teach someone? Imagine like, I've been a personal trainer for a really long time. Imagine I'm like, you hire me and go, like, everybody's different. Yeah. Like, I don't like. But what about your body?

Yeah.

Like, how do you figure that out?

So, yeah, I don't think everyone's different, but I do think there's probably like 10 types of people or something. Like, there's a. I think there's a set number that most people fall into in terms of like, sexual pleasure.

Yes. And there's actually great studies and statistics out there now that it wasn't previously Available. So the way that I teach how, how people figure out what that person like is that if that person don't communicate, don't tell you first, you have to have the ability to read like sexual cues. Right. Like, you do need to know when shits are working or not working to a certain level. Right. So it's like, it's as frustrating as like ordering an Uber and you don't see the car moving. So if you don't have any part, like status report.

Yeah.

It's really hard to tell when you can't recute. But the second thing is there is like you said, like, what are those set 10 things, right. There's statistical preferences that work for more people. So you kind of doing it like a cart counting in Vegas trick. You want to bet on the highest bet possible first. So you do a process of elimination. Like most people like this. Let me start there and go down. So some women could have nipplegasm, right. But you don't start with that. Yeah. Because it's not likely. Right. So it's like a funnel. Start with the biggest, biggest thing and then work your way down. And you'd be surprised that, you know, it's kind of easy to figure out once you use that mindset and strategy and you don't get attached to how this person finds pleasure. It's just what gives them pleasure.

I will say though, I do think it is every person's individual responsibility to achieve pleasure in a sexual sort of transaction. Like, Like, I know people talk about the orgasm gap a lot, which is, I guess, this idea that men like, let's say like a straight hook up, like men will orgasm like 99 of the time and women will be like 60 or something like that. And there's probably a myriad of reasons why that happens. I'm curious what you think, but I, I kind of am. Like, if you're not getting off, that's kind of your responsibility to communicate what you need. If you communicate and it doesn't happen, then obviously it's not your fault. But I'm curious, what do you think of that?

It's, it's. I think it's really, really tricky because if you like, if you have. It's a disagreeable personality approach. Right. Like, I'm, of course I'm gonna get mine. So if you, if you have, like, if you have a disagreeable person, you will care about you getting your, your side first, this. And you make it absolutely that person's responsibility. Make sure they, they would think like you and get theirs and Most of the time that is like a race to the bottom. Right. It does not work out for everyone. So adult. In a principle standpoint, everybody should be responsible for their own pleasure. In a interaction between two people, that actually quite difficult because if I am more, I am super disagreeable and you are super agreeable most of the time. If in this pairing I will luck out than you. Right. You will suffer on that end. So it is important to encourage women to, to stand up for their pleasure, to ask for it, to have the skills. But I truly think that it requires a cooperative, mutual, satisfying mindset between two people to one. I care about your pleasure. Right. Not that I don't care if you didn't get yours. You're like tough.

Yeah.

I don't think it's a great attitude. And also, I think men so underestimate the power of the reciprocity that they will receive for being good in bed. Like if you want her to truly embody her sexuality, which is super hot, if you're really good at things, she'd be so giving. She'd be sucking your cock like she's trying to like worship her maker. Like if it's done well. Right. But you only get that reciprocity when the other person is truly satisfied. Right. Like if you were really good to a friend, ideally a friend would be good to you. And that reciprocity doesn't always happen, but it's so high that like most people don't understand that power. So you will get a much higher quality of sex if the other person is like truly mind blown. Yeah.

Yeah. So now going back to your journey, how did you get out of the mindset? I'm sure there are dudes listening to this that are like, no, girls want to bang me. I'm rejecting myself before I even get rejected. Because the pain I felt is so bad, I, you know, I'm undesirable for X amount of reasons. And then they start listening to media like you were saying, that sort of fulfills and rationalizes their pain.

Yeah.

And then they join a community of people that are like, fuck women.

Yeah.

How? Like, I don't want to put this label on you, but like, had you not found your community, is it possible you could have gone down that pipeline? Like if you were a kid today, like getting these reels and shorts of being like, you know, bitches aren't shit, blah, blah, you can't trust them. Like, that could have been you. So, like, what, how do you get out of that?

Partly I'm just fortunate in that case that I was exposed to this culture and community at a very important part of my life. But I have a very funny story in how that actually happened. There was like, one time in my 20s when after a really terrible breakup, was that one that told me the ex did it better. And then I was, like, celibate for, like, two years. Finally got back into the dating scene in my late 20s, and I met this girl, girl, and she told me, and I was like, I'm not sure about monogamy at that time. I just like, you know, being open and sharing about, like, my idea about relationship. Although, like, in the relationship I had in my 20s also still, like, really slutty, right? Like, it's like in my mind at times, like, wrong to feel that way. Like, you should find the one and stick with it kind of thing. But my internal experience is like, shiny, shiny, shiny. Part need to do with my ADHD and my dopamine immune system. But when I found her, she's like, they're sec. Yeah, like, you know, the sex parties and things out there. I'm like, no way. That only happens in a movie. Like. Like threesomes and stuff like that. And then eventually she invited me to a play party and we start dating. And that was my first sex party ever in Chicago. And I had a lot of work to do that day, so I was, like, really anxious. So I go, like, my friend gave me an Ederall. Never thinking an erroll in my life. I took it early part of the day, got all my work done, and I was really excited to go to the sex party. And she even prearranged a threesome for us to have at the party with someone really hot. And I was like, kid in a candy store. Still really nervous, right? Still have all my insecurity. But, like, fuck it. Like, I can't turn that down. So I went. And then it's the first time I see people, like, walking around naked having sex and all that stuff. And all of a sudden I find myself in this room with. With my. My girlfriend at the time and this other girl, and we start playing. And then I normally don't have that much, you know, erection problem. And it's like, just like I came out of a pool like George Costanza. I was in a pool feeling, right? I'm like, nothing is working. I have no idea why, right? So I try and try, and then it's like, nothing. And I didn't know I had a. Like, Adderall gives me the side effect of, like, hard to get erection and a little bit to do with nerves. So I'm like, no way. So, like, I took myself out of that room feeling really embarrassed, and I went to the bathroom. I'm like, giving myself a coaching talk. I'm like, slapping my cocktail, like, come on, buddy, wake up. And I'm like, trying to go like, like, like, you know, do some mindfulness shit and just like, like think of something arousing. I'm by myself. I'm not stressed. Nothing. So I was at that moment looking at myself. I go like, you know what? Like, all my life I've been worrying about this pain that I'm. I'm feeling right now that is so bad, so embarrassing, so humiliating. And now walk back to. To talk to them and go, like, I don't know what's. Like, this is my first party. Maybe it's nerve. Like, I just don't know what's going on. But, like, it just, like, I'm not feeling it. And they. They were so nice, like, it's okay, blah, blah, blah. But there was a moment in that. In that bathroom when I was like, if this is as worse I could possibly get, and I survived this. I could only go up from here and I go, like, well, I'm gonna stop rejecting myself out of this moment, because if I turn this story into more of a reason to go down that spiral, it would never end. And I remember, I don't know where I found that courage. It's just like there was like a paradigm shift. So walk back out to the party, kind of calm myself down. I love boobs. And this woman just have the most beautiful pair of breasts that I have seen. Like, just amazing. So I walked up to her and go like, hey, I'm like, brand new to the party. I don't know what the etiquette is. I just want to let you know, like, your breasts are so beautiful, girl. And she went like, oh, honey, and just grabbed my head and motorboat me. So she motorboated you?

Yeah.

And I'm like. As my face was bouncing between her bodacious tata, I was like, I am never, ever gonna block myself as in rejecting myself first. So that that moment just, like, really changed my life. And from then on, I go like, let me nerd out everything about sex. And the first thought was like, I need to get so good at it that I compliment, compensate. And then as I really nerd out on everything, I go like, that is. That is so overrated as a. The only requirement to be good. So then I learn about Everything else and the rest of his history. And I do this for a living now. Whoa. Yeah. That's wild.

So it's just that one experience.

Yeah. That changed the trajectory. And the internal dialogue is like, I am not going to reject myself. Because you could think of a million reasons why other people reject you and you act on it. But choosing not to do that in that part of my life and made that, like, no matter how uncomfortable. Comfortable and how fearful, I'm just not going to do that. That's the part that I change. And I think incel culture is that they have. They felt so rejected. Right. Their idea is that every. They're all assholes. They all reject me, so let me reject them. So their reversal is that I'm going to reject out. Right. My experience was I was rejecting myself. So that changes everything. But understand the pain. When you feel hopeless, there's nothing you could do about the situation. But that is not true. Is what's great about their. Just great about reality. That is, like, it's totally about having a growth mindset is totally about a skill that you could acquire. And the bar is set so low. Like, it's so low. Like, it's bad out there. So you could be like the top 1% with so little investment when it comes to this particular skill.

Yeah. It is interesting. And that is like, the terrible thing of insecurity is that you come up with all these reasons. Reasons why other people hate you that are all basically fictitious.

Yeah.

Like, you're thinking, oh, I'm gonna go out there. I'm gonna say, oh, I can't get it up. And the girls are gonna be like, oh, you're a loser. You're an idiot. Like, I knew you couldn't do it. And then in reality, you went out there and you're like, hey, I can't get up. And they go, we don't care. Like, they're like, penetration isn't even our thing anywhere. Like, I think, like, men will make up this thing. And like, their biggest fear is like, oh, I'm hooking up with a girl and I can't get it up.

Yeah.

And I don't know. I don't want to generalize, but I think the majority of women would be like, all right, like, can you do other things? Like, you have 10 fingers. Like, is there anything else that we can do? And then you're like, yeah, these are hard right now. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like men will create this. This, like, boss in their head that they can't Defeat. And if they can just confront it more often than not the boss is not real.

Yeah. And there's only good, like only good male sexual performances about having a big dick that stays hard that could last forever is the only thing that they measure against and that's their measuring stick is all wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. And it is a shame like so much of in cell culture. It's like you'll see the videos that go viral and it's like gold digging bride gets stood up on her wedding day or like, you know, gold digger gets owned or like girl that only wants rich six pack big dick guys like gets destroyed. And so many men like gravitate to that because they're. I think it's exactly what you said. It's like, oh, I get to see the women that rejected me over and over and over finally get. Feel the pain that I felt and.

Justify their suffering and pain. They were smart to avoid it. I think that is their. I was smart to avoid this evil group because if I engage in it I will feel more pain. I'm just a loser and a dumbass. Dealing with that side is toxic. And I think I hate the label that any feminine or masculine is toxic by itself is not. You know, like people do have toxic behavior but it's not like there's not inherent within their, their the sex and gender.

Right. Masculinity is not toxic. Yeah, toxic masculinity is toxic. The toxic is the main word.

Yeah. The toxic though.

Yeah, yeah. Like toxic masculinity and toxic femininity is just toxic. But masculinity and femininity I don't think are inherently toxic in their own right.

Yeah. And to label that it creates a lot of harm for a lot of people and then you use that to kind of create more hatred. Right. For the other group. So I do think having harmony right between the sexes is not in a battle where we support and love each other and treat each other right and serve each other is. Is worth pursuing versus like divide and hate each other and then, and then cherry pick all the worst traits that a few percentage of men like you know, really engage in is a terrible view. Imagine like I look at to gold digging like and someone who have someone else's baby and lie about it and that just think of all women behave this way.

That's what I'm saying. Like of course there are bad women, there are toxic women and there are evil women that only like you for your things and they want to take it from you or they want to trap you with a ba. Like, there's evil behavior, but that is not all women. But I do understand the feeling if you are a guy that did get rejected, like this girl, maybe that rejected you. I don't know her. But that feeling. Saying that, like, oh, my ex is better, is so painful that I can understand the feeling of, like, every girl is like this, and that pain is too much to handle, and I'm not going to confront it again. So I understand. It's completely normal, I think, in human feeling to feel that pain and then create defense mechanisms to reject it. But I do think it's important to try to work yourself out of those defense mechanisms and realize this is not representative of the whole.

But it's back to the same thing we talked about earlier with the dating app. So if you start as soon as you are attracted to a certain group's belief and message, and if you're on YouTube and your algorithms are feeding you the same, like, the same idea to. To suit that pain or to get validated, then you're in a bubble echo chamber. So that's the tough part. But that. But that message wouldn't be out there making money if there's not enough men suffering. Yeah.

And there's a lot of men suffering. A lot of men suffering.

And I really want to take them out of that suffering. This is so unnecessary. It's actually quite easy to give women what they want.

Yeah.

That they really want it from you.

Yeah.

If you're good at it, you know, and the bedroom is a big place and being kind and everything else is important. But it is a. It's like one semester of investment.

Yeah.

In like, a college course. To get so good at it.

And you don't even have to be that good. Like, you just have to be, like, open and enthusiastic. You don't even. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, like, skills will develop over time, and that's.

The skill gap is actually quite tiny. It's so funny because most people miss the mark just a little bit. Like, the different. Like, one of the things that I love teaching is this idea of pleasure wiring. So literally, your nerves are wired slightly differently with everybody. Right. Like on the genitals and your face or whatever. And then some people have a weird tickle spot. You think of it like that. Yeah.

Don't touch my lips.

Yeah, that's my thing.

If anyone rubs my lips, I freak out.

So your wire a certain way, like the physical wire and your sensory cortex. So you could be touching your girlfriend slightly off by 2 millimeter. Or life. And there's a difference between having orgasm and not having orgasm.

It can be that small.

That small. And most people just miss the tiny little things. And it drives me crazy. Like I have coach couples that have been together for 20, 30 years and they just don't have to. And it was a very religious couple. So there was no communication culture when it comes to sex, pleasure, or like this is just to make babies and all that stuff. Both of them were kinky as fuck and never talked about it. And do it kind of like hush hush, like she will read 50 Shades of Grey and he would watch a bunch of kinky porn. But they do classic like love making and blah blah, blah. But they all hate it. It's like the most blend. They like eating tofu when they don't want to have a steak. Right. So they've been doing that all their life. And until I had that conversation with them, they were able to talk about the thing that actually really does it for them and then do it for the first time. And they've been doing like tofu sex for 25 years and they finally had their filet mignon, but it was available the entire time.

Yeah. And it requires a conversation. I think a lot of people just assume like, oh, once I'm in a relationship, like that will just naturally come up and these things, these conversations will naturally happen. And maybe for some people they do. But I do think for a lot of people, especially if you come from maybe like repressed culture or repressed religion, I don't want to say oppressed, repressed. Like if it's not a common thing in your household to talk about it. Yeah. Just having that conversation can unlock an entire potential for your relationship.

But there's not enough of a lexicon for people to talk about sex and pleasure because we don't even have the basic building blocks when it comes to that communication. For most people, like I could talk about if I'm talking to another bro about protein powders and like bench press technique or whatever, there's a million language that I could use and they will understand what a squat is or don't skip leg day and there's a bunch of shit that they know. But if I want to talk about sex with another guy, it's like we only think about like, how can I stay hard and bang her? Or whatever that case may be. So that's why I was like, oh, when I was going down that rabbit hole, because I taught fitness for a really long time. There's actually not a Very useful language and framework to separate what's good and bad and, or how to improve something. So when people don't understand those concepts, like the nerves might be just a little bit left. Like that, you know, ex girlfriend map is that her map is like just the wrong house next door.

Yeah.

So like figuring all those things out from a science perspective. And also it's like once you get it, you know how the magic is created. So it's like you could create that magic anytime.

Yeah.

But if you don't know, it just looked like magic. Yeah.

The other thing I wanted to touch on but like the incel thing is like I always try to tell guys this, like if you think women want like money in cars and six pack and all that stuff, you're going to attract women disproportionately that only value those things.

Yeah.

And you will just get confirmation bias for the women that you're attracting.

Yeah.

So if you're only attracting women that like money, then.

Yeah.

You're going to get a lot of money and then get screwed over by women that just like money. And you're attracting the wrong thing based off what you think women want.

Yeah.

When in reality women want like a great relationship kindness, like gentleness, but assertiveness and like all those things we talked about. And if your focus isn't on those things and like the skill and the skill gap and it's on these like superficial things, you're going to attract superficial people that are then going to confirm your bias that women are superficial. It's like you're just attracting superficiality with the way you're behaving.

Yeah.

And I think it's, it's interesting that you're able to get into relationships that have been, you know, repressed sexually and then unlock those things and it's cool. I'm curious, is there a. I think a lot of people look at like sex positivity as like a purely like hedonistic, amoral, non religious pursuit. And I'm curious like is there like within like a monogamous relationship and even if it's a religious couple having fulfilling sex is still moral. Right. Like I don't think that that is at odds with a religiosity.

No, I. And also there will be a percentage of the population that monogamy works way better for them. So it's not like, like this one prescription like the, the white right to have sex or relationship is, is only this, you know, this model works. So there's many people who have like really satisfying sex Life with only one partner their entire lives. And there's people who want to have sex with a new person every weekend. So they just different, you know, like, some people could fly from airport to airport and airport and people can leave the house. They're just two different type of people. But when it comes to good sex. Right. Is what about. Is really about what you truly desire and want and aroused by. And can you create that experience with a person you want to create that experience with?

Yeah.

And a lot of times that. But most of the time people don't know how to like, curate or create those experiences. So they only go like good sex looks like this. So I will do, you know, XYZ or get my. Or like sort of the routine that people fall into. And there's another concept from Ian Kerner, who wrote she Come First. He did a bonus interview for my audiobook. And his concept about sex script. So everybody have a certain sex script, like the way they view about sex. So the social sexual script is like the larger expectation of a society. And then you have an individual one, like how you get turned on and how you get aroused and what scenario on how you behave. And I find that his model is one of the most useful tool to learn how to do that, communication with an individual. And you realize you don't really. I mean, it's not that you don't have a choice in your script, but it's pretty built into nature and nurture. So if you learn to embrace that person's preferences, just like everybody like food slightly differently. Some people could drink Soylent their whole life, and some people could only eat, like, gourmet food. Right. It's very different. But there is a way to talk about it where people could discover the thing that really does it for them.

Yeah. I'm curious what you think as far as, like, the like. So far we've talked so much about, like, the pleasure of sex. And I think that's largely because in America, which is like a largely puritanical Christian country, at least in its genesis, pleasure I don't think was talked about at all. Like, I think sex was mostly looked as like a procreative act. And ultimately it. I guess it is like sex. Like, the function of sex in terms of like, the biological reason is to procreate. But I don't know if that's the only reason. It's also like, unitive and bonding and there's pleasure that I think has largely been neglected. But I'm curious as far as, like, babies and children are involved like, sex does lead to children. And so I'm curious as far as like monogamy and polyamory. I view monogamy as really beneficial for like raising children. And once children are involved in terms of just like rearing kids and like giving children like a, you know, healthy, stable household, do you think polyamory can be disruptive to that? And do you have to like, really work on polyamory as it relates to like raising kids?

I think it's two different function and it's even more challenging because the world have changed so much in the last 50 years, right? Like with birth control and with abortion, with condoms and the pill and then dating apps. So we are not dealing with the same world that we had in the previous century or even like 50 years ago. It's so different that I don't think we have learned to adapt it. Like the consequences of being pregnant was so high back in the day. Then you kind of have to guard this decision because it would be quite damaging, dangerous, of course, in so many ways. But that is no longer the world we live in, right? You could have consequences. Free, casual hookup on a Saturday. That means would do nothing to your life. So now you are giving this whole new set of environment and rules that wasn't previously available. So although a lot of tradition was built on that world that we no longer exist in. And the second thing is there what I, what I personally, what I think makes a healthy relationship is how committed and how invested those pairings decide to do it and how committed they are as parents. Who they. How many people they choose to fuck and who they fucking when they fuck or whatever the case may be, is separate from the commitment they made to each other or to the child. So I do think healthy family require a level of security, certainty, investment in it. And it is unhealthy to not make those investment for the species. Right. Like as a society as a whole. But I like, like I'm working on my second book. It's gonna. It's gonna call beyond casual. So I want to talk about, is there something like, because we only have hookup or wife her up, you know, like, it doesn't. It doesn't. We don't have a middle ground, right? So been experiencing a lot of healthy ways for people to do this and also be very committed to their family and raising their children or some family. Don't look like a pairing of two. Some. It could be a group of people. It could be whatever the case may be. Each side has their pros and cons. So there's definitely pros and cons in monogamy versus non monogamy. And it could take in so many forms. But that there is this idea that you have a relationship type too from Dr. Shana as well. The relationship type is really depends on your. Your novelty drive. Like how much shiny do you really need as a person? It's really hard for someone who have a very high novelty drive to only be monogamous. So it's a roll of the dice of the personality as well. So I think different relationship structure works with different population depending on your temperament and how you relate to the world. But I don't think non monogamy is bad for family by default. And I don't know if monogamy is the only way to have a good family because they could definitely be a monogamous couple that have a really shitty family too.

Yeah, of course.

So. So that alone do not make it so. But I think the investment and the love and nurturing and security is what really does it. Yeah.

And maybe some people can make it work. I just don't know enough. And it all is so new that I don't know if there is even any data to support it. But I guess like, yeah, non monogamy in the sense that like, okay, we're married or we're in some sort of like stable relationship, we're raising a child together like two people and we're choosing to then have relationships on the side that are sexual. That seems like, yeah, you could probably do that and raise a healthy family. But as soon as there's like a third or a fourth like parent that's involved in raising a kid. I'm curious if there's a, I don't know, some societal detriment to having like four parents for one kid. I don't know. I don't know if there's enough data or there's enough people that have been raised by multiple parents.

Well, most kids back in the day are raised by the village. Right. There's sort of a more tribal setup until city was born. So like there's sort of a group effort when it comes to raising children that we. This idea of this nucleus family home in like 1950 picket fence level is pretty American.

Right.

And it's not a multi generational household. And the funny thing is about swinger culture where they do a lot of wife swapping back in the day was a. It was kind of created in the Air Force where there's a bunch of men who go fighting and they go like, how do you take care of each other when like one of you die? And. And it was like a group of people who are committed to each other in that way and then this is the way that they figure out how to make it work. And also they could be really horny, but it actually born out of that.

Oh, interesting.

So it's not. And the idea of monogamy is very different when we talk about, like Esther Perel puts it, like monogamy used to mean this thing, but it's no longer what it truly means, right? Like the idea is like you pair with one person for life, right? And in your case, you're actually living the traditional sense. Right now we're just living up serial monogamy. I'm going to be committed until loves die. And that's her word. So it really depends on what your idea of like, is it commitment till you die or I'm just committed, like I'm exclusive for this non compete period, you know. And my favorite definition of like monogamy, non monogamy is you're really just choosing who to deal with the discomfort. So for example, if you have a monogamous relationship, right, if you are attracted to someone, it is your responsibility to suppress your desire so your wife don't have to feel that pain. In a non monogamy relationship, there's room that you can negotiate that I would deal with my jealousy so you could have fun. So it's like, who is dealing with which emotion? So in a monogamous relationship, you really go like, your job is not to give those bad feelings to your partner in, in any circumstances, right?

You're either repressing your sexual desire or they're repressing their jealousy or something, right? Someone is repressing something.

So who is doing something? And sometime it could be, I don't experience as much jealousy. My wife has two husbands and we all live together, right? And that's like, I have another great story about how we all met. And if you want to know, but like, I don't feel like. And there's also, there's this genetic makeup. Some people feel a much higher level of jealousy than other depending on their attachment style. So. So it's very hard to see the world from other people's lenses. But there's so many, so many version of that experience. For some people, cuckolding is the most exciting thing and it's so high actually, fantasy wise. And you would think that it's the worst pain ever, right? For most guys to think cuckolding is like being mcfun off while your wife gets fucked. But, like, it's a major turn on for some, so it's just so different to reduce it into one healthy version.

Yeah, yeah. And I completely agree as far as, like, you know, what individual adults choose to do. Like, basically do whatever. Like, as long as you're not hurting people and whatever. Like, yeah, do whatever. But I guess just once kids are involved, it creates a very different environment because you're dealing with, you know, an innocent person that didn't opt into this life and trying to give them the most stable thing. And I'm sure there's different ways to do it. So I'm curious about, like, your dynamic.

Yeah, so.

So you're. You're married.

I'm married.

I didn't realize that. Yeah, that's cool. How long have you been married?

We. We co. Proposed together right before COVID so there has to be like, 2018. We didn't get a. We didn't have a wedding yet because of COVID But there's three of us, and it's been a. I met Geronimo, my wife's other husband, at a gang bang for another friend, and it was like a fantasy for one friend's girlfriend to have, like a gang bang the other guy. And I was dping her with him and I go like, my. And then I met him, I go, like, my girlfriend is really, really picky. She might really like you. And then I hooked him up and they became friends and then they started to date, and we're all together now.

Oh, wow. So you were dating your wife and then you introduced her to this guy through a sex party, through a dp.

Whoa. I know, but sex is not the thing that we determine our level of commitment. Like, sexual exclusivity is not the measure of your sacrifice is your commitment to being kind and responsible and have integrity is different. So it just. Like most people just say infidelity is the only measure of that loyalty is not what we measure in our relationship. And that could be. I'm not shitting on people who choose to have that as their rule, but it's not the one that we decided that is the most significant thing to measure your level of commitment in a.

Society that sort of is the prescription. Like, infidelity is the only measure, and you have just chosen to create like a new prescription for your relationship that is like, hey, that's not the only measure. We have our own constitution that our relationship lives by.

But I. My. My version of non monogamy is not the same as what most people would think. I believe in monogamy quite a bit. But my version is that I could do four four hour monogamy. So there's like Tim Ferriss I'm gonna explain this to my girl.

That's a good idea.

So the idea of, of having like this huge benefit of a monogamy structure and I love it and embrace it. So because I believe in like flexibility there's times that look I fuck we all fuck so many people sometime we just don't want to share. Right. So we could go to event and be non monogamous for four hours and it's fine. And we would treat each other under monogamous rule. But it doesn't have to be the rule for life. It could be just a weekend, it could be her birthday, it could be whatever. And for those times if a girl is hitting on me at a party, I will literally say it in front of my wife to the other girl go like I love your attention but tonight is really important to my wife. So I would love to for you another time and is like it's really pleasurable for my wife to have some love or monogamy experience the benefit of monogamy experience. So it could be a little bit flexible for. And people could be monogamous. They could be monogamous most of the time but they could have tiny like hall paths and windows in order to have those desire met. So it doesn't have to be so extreme lifetime right. Monogamy. And it could be an option that if some people prefer. It doesn't have to be an orgy every weekend as so many version of that that could be created. But we when it comes to sex and relationship we're really craving the idea of normal. Like I just want to fit in. Right. But the fitting in part is I just want don't want to be rejected because I'm weird or whatever. Like if I like this, people reject me. So when you actually be authentic to who you really are then is it requires a lot of creativity and negotiation. But it's possible.

Right. So my wife and I have chosen I guess by default monogamy for the next hundred years.

Yeah.

And you and your, your wife would you call Geronimo your wife?

I call him my brother husband to joke Brother.

Okay. So within your guys relationship you have monogamy? Not for 100 years. You have it for a few hour window and then we reassess and talk about it and then maybe it's a week and then we reassess and talk about it and then maybe it's one day and then we reassess and talk about it.

I think the default is not monogamy, but we could opt into some monogamy period. Like you talk about raising children. So like it'd be really fucked up. I'm trying to hook up with some random girl. I'm leaving my wife with a child and she really needs help. That's a fucked up behavior no matter what what my agreement is.

Right.

So for a period of time, people could choose to be more like. Like less diversified is how I look at it. But it also, it also has to come with time and commitment. I think the choice is that I would not neglect you, right. To a level that really hurts you. And sometime you might have to deal with like not having me because you are choosing to share me in some level of discomfort. But that part, that part could be negotiated. And I don't believe, believing having one. I don't think it's. Without any flexibility to those rules. It's really tricky.

Yeah. Because for you. Yeah. You're like, this is the way that my body and my brain is wired.

And sometimes that's why people end up cheating and doing a lot more shitty stuff to. To do the monogamy facade. They don't actually, actually do it or they do serial monogamy. They feel like that craving is too high. So I have to end this relationship in order to do the thing I want to do. But then I don't think it necessarily have to be a trade off. I think you could have a little bit of both depending on the person. But preference also changed in decades. So most people think people in their teens and twenties are having all the wild sex. That is not true. Like most kind of group sex, crazy sex happen in a later stage in life when they already have a period of committed relationship. So most people would turn in maybe 20, 30, 40. That's why higher. There's a higher percentage of people who are late 30s to their 50 on the swinger community side because they already live their monogamy life out to a point. They go like, maybe we could all explore together. But I feel safer exploring with you than just going out to do it.

Interesting. So within your dynamic, you all live in the same home.

Yeah.

And where do you sleep?

I have my own room. I'm a cat. He's more like a puppy. I am so different, you know. And also one of their, one of the most difficult, like with Karen.

That's your wife?

My wife. My wife Karen. The difficult thing was I didn't want to have children. And she wants to be a mom. Right. And I believe that it's not my choice. Right. For her to be a mother or not. And if she wants. And, and then when she met Geronimo, Geronimo wanted to be a father yesterday. Right. So then they're working on. On having a baby, so. But I am too much of a cat, so I really don't make a great partner solo for someone like her who require the level of attention she desire.

Right. If you had met someone and fallen in love with someone that didn't want to have kids, then there might be more of that, like, social compatibility, I guess, in that regard.

So when most people look at us, they go, like, why? This is like a weird setup and this weird dynamic. But ultimately, I think because of their desire, they're able to have, you know, the family that we all want and able to. She able to have a cat and a dog, basically.

Right, Right.

And.

And she didn't have to choose.

Yeah. Like, I could be a cat, which is a really big benefit because without Geronimo, I really have to repress a lot more cat, like, behavior without his contribution.

Interesting. So had you been strictly, let's say this was 60 years ago and you're in a strictly monogamous relationship, she would probably leave you to go be with someone to have a family, and then that would give you heartbreak and make you sad.

Yeah. And I. Yeah. So it worked out because of the three people's pairing of our desire and our needs. Right. Of course there is a compromise. It's not like a very tell story. We all, like, have to figure shit out, of course. But it works out better in the long term because I could pursue my career the way that I am, and I would say my career is definitely my other relationship that I spend so much time doing. And I cannot pursue my career in the same level if it wasn't for Geronimo being there for all the times. And there's times that we work. Like, it's like a teamwork kind of situation, and it works out a lot better for us. For some people, that is definitely a nightmare setup. Right. But for me, it's like, it's ideal.

Interesting. Can I ask you more personal questions about this? You can, you can punt if you don't want to.

I, I talk. If I could talk about my dick on. Okay, fair, fair.

Okay. So you live in your own room, and then Karen and Geronimo have their room. Their room.

Yeah.

And Did. Did you guys. Did you and Karen ever have your own room before you met Geronimo?

I have never lived together with Karen. It was never going to a preference of mine. I rather. People stay at my house. The reason that I'm living at their house is that they just bought a house. And then I'm good at interior design and modeling stuff, so. And I'm also moving a. I was in a sublet and I'm gonna move again or travel a lot for a book tour. So I have this gap.

Right.

So I decided to move in with them to live for a period of time to help them set up the house. And while they're trying to make a baby and do all that stuff and then reassess. But eventually I'm always gonna have my own place.

Oh, wow.

And then. And he. They will have their place. And she could stay at my place anytime she wants. Is my preferred setup. But also that might change too in the future. I might be in my 16 go like, fuck this. I don't wanna do this. I just live with that. So it's always. Or I fall in love with having children that I might right with them. And then that might be something I desire. So. So I think because of my novelty drive, like my personality trait being that level openness is tough. Right. It's hard for me to go like this. It will be the setup for life, but generally that, you know, I could do anything for a period of time and see if I actually like it and don't like it. And then circumstances might change.

And so then the romance and the sexuality within the individual relationship. Like would you guys just all hang out, like watch a movie together? And then if she's interested in having sex, like proposition both of you, either of you, like, how does that work?

So me and Geronimo are aromantic and asexual. Like we're. We're not to each other. So we're not. We're not hooking up when we don't have a romance. Like a like love. Romantic love each other. But we are like really like brother, husband.

Yeah.

In that sense.

So there's no sexual relationship between the two?

No, there's some time we're having threesomes together because we just like having threesomes. Right. Because we're into group sex. But that doesn't happen as often as people think that we all live together. She's really. She is the husband hoarder that have both of us. And she could rotate us as she please. Is more of our real Life.

Right.

And then we also date and fuck other people. So it really, it really depends. Yeah.

And so are you able to bring a woman into that, into the home?

Yeah.

And you just communicate that beforehand?

Yeah. It's also. We do it at parties so it's not a big deal of you wanting up to play with other people. It's not like it's no different than I'm playing cards with you. Like it's an activity that we enjoy.

Right.

That I want to do with other people. And we don't, we don't have to high lie about that desire. But it's also we have to be respectful and just, you know, kind of like. Like negotiate and just talk about it. But it's not a crime.

Right.

To do that or have that desire in the first place. But there's so much other outlets. So it's not like always like bring it home. It depends. But that's why I prefer to have my own place.

Right.

Yeah.

Because then it just makes that part.

A little easier for me. Yeah. And I. And also back in the day I live in the orgy house. Right. Where we throw the party and I sleep in the orgy bed. And like I live with 14 roommates. So it's a very different experience. When I was like building that community and having like their bachelor life to now like living them and my next move. I really want to live alone for a period of time and travel a lot. Yeah.

You would sleep in the orgy bed.

Well, I, I share my room because I like building gigantic beds and just. I like engineering sex stuff like. Like just where people get the loop and went through all the garbage. Like I just see like it's how I see the world. So I built the whole like where there are 200. 200 person sex party. I love building that house out for those activity. And I lived there for like six and seven years. Well, I just moved out recently to live with Karen and Geronimo because we also opening a bar and a venue. So. And I'm also too old. Like I'm turning 42 in the next 30 days to. It's a little too much. And I'm like any focus in career stuff. So living with them is a good period of time to do this. Interesting. Yeah.

And when they have a kid, the kid will live with them.

Yeah.

And then will you also take on parenting responsibility?

Yes. So. And also we talk to others like psychiatrists and family like nominal family, family law to how to interact with a child and their ultimately is that do you want to label or choose the responsibility of being a parent, and you kind of have to let the kid know your level of commitment and involvement by the age of two. Like, am I staying in and into the day? You die from the age of two. So I haven't quite internally made that decision. And they're okay with father figure or uncle figure, depending on how it rolls out, like when we actually have the kid. And I suspect that I'm going to fall in love too, but I just don't have a natural, like, desire and drive for it right now.

Right. So you think the kid will call Karen Mom, Geronimo, dad, and then maybe you.

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't want to make that commitment without really committing to it.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's a big decision.

Yeah. And. And I, when I do make that commitment, I will stay in that child's life like my son or daughter for the rest of, you know, for the rest of that, you know. Yeah, the child's life. Yeah.

That is such a fascinating dynamic.

Yeah.

I, I don't know if I've really spoken to many people that are in that kind of situation where you effectively, like, introduced your wife to the father of the kid and you also may or may not be the father.

I mean, you see this all the time in monogamy setup. Like if you have your first marriage and you have kids and the wife marry a new guy, you still have all this dynamic. They're just not fucking now because of like, whatever the rules. But those configuration happens so many variations, like, so often. But we just don't have a more different model than the one that is serial monogamous.

That's interesting. Yeah. Because I have so many friends. Yeah. When you put it that way, that are like, oh, yeah, these are my parents, and then that's my stepdad. And I don't really talk to my, my biological dad that much, but I see him sometimes and I'm really close to my stepdad or vice versa. That is really interesting.

You know, there's a Chinese proverb that their parenthood ratio is more important than the one your biological parent like, is valued that way. So our own, my own internal value is that how actually invested as, as a parent to this child is more important than all the other factors. And that's what actually, you know, creates the bond, the relationship. So I could be genetically related, but it's completely shitty parent.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And vice versa. I mean, I know people are raised by their grandparents and they call them basically like mom and dad, like they're like, these are my parents because my parents for whatever reason were not really around. And yeah, it really takes the role.

Of parenting, but it's, it's a great like Chinese bargain for me because Geronimo is so nurturing. Like, like when you look at him, you would never like guess that that will be the part of him, but he's such a loving, nurturing person that he volunteer himself to probably do majority of the parenting like the day to day picking up, up for school. So it's a great deal to, to I could just do the father bit that I really like, like coaching, teaching or whatever the case may be. That's at least that's my assumption.

Wow, that is interesting.

Yeah.

And it, at what point. I'm actually just curious like your opinion because you've obviously researched this a lot. At what point do you think you should start talking to kids like about sex and sexual relationships and like when, when did you wish that someone talked.

To you about it? Well, I'm definitely, I don't qualify, qualify myself as an age appropriate sex educator for the kids in there. Like I deal with adults more personally work with adults on that education. But if it was up to me, then comprehensive sex education should be available as early as possible for, for people to like learn about biology. Like literally like this is a labia, this is a vulva vagina. And treat sex as a, not as a taboo or potential sin and vice, but treat it no different than fitness food and how to manage your finances and equip them with the tool to make smart decision about this part of their lives. I think it's really important and there is amazing sex educator to figure out the timing of when is their age appropriateness. And I would definitely follow their recommendation and their study. But is ignorance is not healthy. Right. And people being in the dark is not healthy. And my, my wife is a ER doctor and so many nightmare stories. People are just not educated in sex and think something. They fuck something up. I don't know what's wrong with them. And you just never talked about what.

Fell on a bottle or something.

They never knew. They didn't know a period exists. And then you. They bleeding one day they go to the ER is that they just never learned that there was a period.

Yeah, there's so many wild stories of like, oh, there's four tampons inside of you and you're like, yeah, I didn't know I had to take them out. Or like, oh, I'm afraid I'm you of front in to lose my tampon up there and it's like you can't lose it up there. But people are just have a lot of ignorance as far as like how their body works.

I think it's important to educate people on the science and giving the tool to make good decision but also not overly moralizing. Like this is like the best and perform way except that don't harm other people. Right. I think that's a really good rule and for many consenting adults to engage in the activity they want to do.

Yeah, that's interesting. Early as possible is. It's a little tricky for me. I don't know if I would teach my kids about sex as early as possible.

Well it's. I think when we talk about teaching kids about sex there's different levels. Right. So yeah, it's like we're thinking about exposing a two year old to hardcore porn. That's not. Yeah, so it's really like basic. There is a. There, there's male and female body and some people are intersex in, in educational level. And then when they start having sexual desires. Right. There's a transition when they start feeling those feelings. How to understand those feelings, how to manage those feelings is really important.

Yeah, I think that makes more sense.

Yeah.

So, so basic biology and then start.

And then go and this is a natural thing to feel and you will have those desire and then you go to puberty. I mean so that's why the age appropriateness comes in. I think like you know, and the republican side is like all they think is like a drag queen reading a book to your child. That's what they think sex ed is. So what I'm talking about is really about making smarter decisions so they could manage their life in a way that's healthy.

Right. So something like okay, my kid is like you know, four three to let's say like three to six. Teaching them about like private parts, teaching them about like their genitalia, their body, like the function of their body. And then maybe as they get a little older talk about the function of like the other body like if they're a boy, talk about girls bodies, et cetera. And just like the basic biology of like this is what body parts are are. And then as they're having sexual experiences like through puberty and as their curiosity around sex starts to develop, then having a conversation about like how you use your body and how you use your biology to you know, have sex and that sex can have consequences and it also can be pleasureful and that there's good sides and potentially negative sides to it as they're going through puberty and having sexual experiences.

Yeah. And then the separation between like the, the science of human sexuality versus eroticism is two different things. Right. Like, like if I am.

Explain that.

So for example, if I'm teaching someone about like driving a race car, right. I'm talking about the theories of like entering a corner at the apex and this angle. So I'm talking about physics here. Right. Like, like that is one aspect of driving that is different than teaching them. Like your life should be about winning at all costs. Right. Driving a car as fast as possible and like drive this person off the road. It's just two different side of the same education. So I think people's lives will be significantly better if they're better informed from science back information about sexuality and then figure out how they could express their individual eroticism. That is like when they're reaching more adulthoods on that side or like when they're age appropriate, go to explore. But when you feel horny, like, like if you don't educate them, it's not like they're not getting educated. Right. Because of accessibility to information in moles in, in some fortunate society where you have access to information and Internet and everything else. So you just leave it up to like social media and porn to educate your kids. That's awful. Yeah. So having the right information is really important. The science space and less politicized. Like, like you know about either side. So.

Yeah.

To, to make a good decision. Yeah.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I do think that they're like kids are not, I guess in my opinion kids are not inherently sexual until puberty. Like there's, I think there's curiosity about the parts and I think that's where it's important. It's like for a young child like before puberty to say like this is a car, this is what a car does. And then when a kid is old enough being like, okay, this is how you drive a car. Like this is like the different ways you can drive a car. Things like that. Once they're ready to drive a car. Yeah.

And then you know, again, do not claim to be a doctor, not claiming to be an expert on TV about age appropriate sex education. But if your 11 year old, 12 year old son, like I was remembering when you have your reaction, like you go like why am I hard all the time? And like why am I so forever. Did I break it?

Yeah. There's so many questions, questions to having.

Another adult that who was informed to talk to you about those things. So important. It's like absolutely.

And that doesn't really happen at all. Like I said before, I didn't learn any of this. Everything I had to learn was like I literally had a friend across the street that like was in public school and got like a sex education like book. And I was like 13, 14, like just going through puberty and had all these hormones and feelings and sexual emotions and desires but didn't understand what to do. And I didn't really feel comfortable talking to anyone in my family about it. So I like like went through this pamphlet that kind of was just like a very like medical description of like what sex is and how it works. And that actually was really helpful for me to understanding what it was. But I do wish there was someone I could ask. But I also think it's important to like let the kids level of curiosity. Obviously kids are different.

Yeah.

And letting their level of curiosity drive the conversation rather than. And again I don't have kids so I don't know. But letting that level of curiosity drive the conversation rather than prematurely exposing a kid to something that might be too sexual that then could disrupt their sexual, sexual development.

And when I was researching the book, one of my favorite sex researcher, Dr. James Files talks a lot about their like if you think about any child developmental stage, there's definitely that stage where in a sexual development where you start like having the hormones, having those feelings and the things that you experience and associate in that time kind of really alter imprint your sexuality for the rest of your life in a pretty significant way. So you're feeling first relationship with sex, your first experience with sex. What you taught about sex has real world consequences. So if that message is negative or is dirty or sinful, it does have like that script. That script we were talking about earlier will run for the rest of that person's life. I also work at a retreat called Back to the Body with my mentor Pamela Madison where there's women flying all over the world. We run this centrist retreat. We're in places around the world where is where you have a something called sexological body work that's a bigger body and I got certified with her which is different education system. But anyway they are having a hands on experience with a practitioner. We're not having sex with them. We just like educate them and coaching them and touching them in a way that teach them about pleasure and how more orgasm and feeling safer. And usually the people who are sexually repressed earlier or Dealing any sexual trauma, completely different respond to the same exact situation. And it takes a lot of effort to unlock, like to remove some of those script from early childhood. And also it also has to do with desire. Like, I don't know if you remember the first thing you ever seen or that movie and go like, oh, you are like, actually aroused.

Yeah.

And then someone. And then noticing what actually arouses you is also really. You don't really have that much choice in that one.

Yeah. Topanga Lawrence, Boy Meets World.

But it's also based on that pairing what turns you on, it just will be. It's like association machine. So you arouse and what you see while you're being aroused will imprint what arouses you. So. So it's tricky. And some are not like someone just like biological, like, like orientation a lot of times, or it's a combination of the two. But whatever that was, pair at that time has such a big consequences the rest of your life.

So I'm curious, like, what you think of that as far as, like, sexual imprinting goes. Like, I don't know if this is true. You probably have more research than I do on this. But, like, people will be drawn to, like, certain adult sexual proclivities based off of, like, you know, events that happen in their childhood or, like, you know, even like, traumas that they might experience, like in, you know, late childhood, like, early adolescence. And like, I've heard things like, with like, cuckoldry, for example, where, like, men will get off watching other men have sex with their wives or their girlfriends. And sometimes there's a humiliation element. I don't think that is inherent, but oftentimes there's a humiliation element. And I've heard from people that in those cases it's possible that some of the men have experienced, like, infidelity where, like, they maybe had, like, a prior girlfriend that cheated on them. And then this new experience is them able to sort of reclaim the trauma that happened to them in a controlled environment where some trauma happened, where someone cheated on them. And now they're able to experience that almost through, like, immersion. And they actually were aroused by it instead of traumatized. Have you heard that before?

What are your thoughts on that? No, no, absolutely. It's a very complicated topic because, like, they're always going to be like, team nature versus nurture. Like, it's definitely a combination of both in my experience. But Pleasure and Fantasy has a unique way of twisting some of the tragedy and pain that people experience. Like comic books and stories that, like, my world sucks or the fantasy world is better. So because sexuality often it's leading us towards more of a fantasized world. Right. So, so. And it's also depends of their act that happened to you that you might like anyway, but it was just not consensual and you were violated and abused. So for example, the thing like you really like, I don't know, you really like steak or whatever and I love cooking meat so a vegan will hate me. But anyway. But you are force fed steak, you would have loved steak anyway. But it's a force feeding that you're having the problem with. So then you don't. Then you have a real relationship with stake on one side remind you of this trauma and the other side you actually like it. So sometime a sexual abuse victim will have so much internal like turmoil and pain for liking certain aspect of their traumatizing experience or being aroused or having orgasm. And sometime your level of wantedness right in the situation versus your biological response has no relations. You could absolutely hate the situation. You could absolutely, this is absolutely abused. But your body might respond as orgasm and you could think about how like confusing for that person to have that experience and make sense of all of that.

Right. So again, I'm not passing a moralistic judgment. Like I even look at like I do stand up comedy and I don't doubt that my desire to be on stage and telling jokes and making people laugh certainly has to do with my childhood. Yeah, I think like growing up in a big family and there's probably ways to psychoanalyze this, but I'm like growing up in a big family, like comedy and like laughter was really valued in my household and I was like six of seven kids. Like there's not a ton of attention. So certainly in some, you know, Freudian level, I think that the desire for attention manifests in those ways. And I, I think that's probably common for a lot of performers and so. And I don't think that's immoral to do stand up and I don't think it's immoral to have like an early imprint in my childhood lead me to a career. I don't think it's wrong, but I, I do wonder if there's a connection between that or maybe I always was going to be a performer whether I was an only child. I don't know.

I think it's a combination of both. So some people are just like born with it. Right? Like they feel that way from how they're wired on the other side. It could Be experiences is a combination of both. So in any camp that if you only think of it people form their sexuality because of nurture, then you will always like, he liked this. He must like this because something really bad happened.

Right?

That is not true. Like, I think, I think when Huberman was on. On your show, he talked about like the. The region in your brain when you like process disgust versus pleasure is like right next door. Right, right. He brought up that point and I.

Think we were talking about feet in the case.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some people are like, they see feet is like how I see boobs. Right. Like they didn't have a choice in that biological response. And that's a lovely thing to have. Right. Because you could see so much all day in the summer. But you know, like, like it's not like. And for some people, they might be really turned on as a kid. Right. And they always like under the table and all they see is feet. Right. In that time when they're super aroused. And that could get linked up or just a crossover between the nerves. Right. So we can really always say is this or that.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day it does not matter because you are dealing with whatever you have at that moment. So are you. My philosophy is that you have to learn how to make sense of your world.

Of course. Yeah.

So. Yeah.

And so long as your sexual desire doesn't hurt anyone else. Like I think that is like the big thing where people will get hung up. Like obviously if you. And again, I don't know this to be true, but if you have experienced like sexual abuse as a kid, then you might have like a latent sexual desire that could be like pedophilic. And obviously that is wrong. But I'm curious like if there even is a connection or maybe some people are just born that way and then. And they have that desire. And I don't. Yeah. I guess to your point, I don't know if you can really always pinpoint it to, oh, this event happened, therefore you are X. Yeah.

Both view is problematic if you only think is you're born with it and the other side is like it's made from some tragedy. And sexuality is so diverse. Is the other thing that. And it's hard for people. We grasp that more in food. Like there's so many different cuisine around the world that we figure out how to eat and taste preferences. Like some people like, like spicy that like it will kill you.

Yeah.

You know, because of that. Like. But we don't look at sexuality because we're trying to normalize it.

Yeah. And I do think that, yeah, I think there's been such a long time of like sexuality being put into a, a small fight, like finite little spectrum of what's allowed. And now there is a counterculture that's or sort of opened up where it's like, no, there's other ways to look at it. I do think that sometimes people like conservation conservatives will get hung up because they go like, well, where is the line? And I think for most people that I've talked to in the community, they're like, yeah, the line is pretty clear. Like, don't inflict pain on other people. Like don't inflict pain on children. Don't inflict pain on someone else without consent, obviously. So with the cuisine example, yeah, we all accept that there's a lot of cuisines, but then everyone accepts don't eat humans. Cannibalism is wrong no matter where you are.

But for some really religions, eating pigs is like a complete total sin. Right. For other people they praise and have like holidays around it.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's, it just, it's just different. And also this, this version of sort of a sexual belief in America is not there. It's such a like small snippet of human history, you know what I mean? So if it's more of like a Christian base, more conservative perspective is also. It's relatively new.

Yeah.

To their entire history. Yeah, of course, like Roman times are very different, you know. Yeah. Like how that is viewed versus today. So that's what's the fun part about it. It's quite flexible.

Do you have hard lines like that you think all people within the sex community should abide by, like I mentioned mine before, I'm curious if there's like an agreed upon one or if you have one specific.

Put other people's well being above your desires. I think that's like the most important golden rule that I ever, ever teach a bro. Like if you could actually exercise that, that makes you a man, that you will forego your chances of getting lay for the sake of her wellness. Should be the base rule.

Right.

Not even the rule to achieve to. It's sort of the base requirement because you will want your sister, your wife, your cousin to be treated that way. Right? Of course. So as long as that the well being part is taken care of, then then it's like, should be negotiated, you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

Consenting adults.

Yeah. And especially within like BDSM or like people that might have like rape fantasies or things like that that I think the average person might see as like kind of extreme. I think people will get those things crossed up or they're like oh, this person has this fantasy so therefore I can do it. It's like well no, because then you're putting your desire above their well being. So there still needs to be a conversation and consent even within those fantasies. I think people sometimes have a hard time with that.

And those fantasies is somewhat common. And on top of it is kinksters have developed such beautiful comprehensive protocols to how to do that safely in a way that serves you know, both party. So it's not like we haven't found ways to like sex hacks that really works. You know, if you're into this is how you do it safely.

Right.

You know, or for more fun. And it's been to so many trial and error. That is pretty like the rules, the.

Protocols are pretty systematized and they're healthy.

So there is things to learn. And you know when like people sometime when they introduce me they're like oh, they introduced me from gq because I use that line all the time like the greatest sex hacker from gq. And but most people misinterpret the idea of a sex hacker. They just think I'm like hacking to your phone to see your booby pictures or whatever the case may be.

Yeah, that's a tricky one.

Yeah, tricky one word. But sex hacking been around forever. Like you think about like Kama Sutra to like Taoist tradition when it comes to sex to shibari art from Japan to there is in the Victorian era when they invented the vibrator to birth control. So there's different methods and ideas that people have elevated the experience of sex. You know. So I just love collecting like the best stuff that actually work and then. And also use modern science to invent some. But there's so many try and true amazing way to make that experience better. So like I use all those sound bites all the time. But we are all born hungry. But not everyone know how to cook. And there's so many recipes that have been developed for so long. But we just decided that there's like I'm just gonna go all instinct on this one, you know.

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. I'm curious, do you know what the original like like purpose of the Kama Sutra was like I always see that and it's like crazy sex positions. But like was there a function like back in the day for that book.

Specifically the Tantra side is really more of. I don't Want to oversimplify and I might butcher their. Their idea. But it's really about embodiment and your connection to allowing the relationship with pleasure and experiencing pleasure in your life and your body. And what I found with sexuality that is so beautiful beautiful is that it does actually engages all your senses. And just if you having good sex, they really put you in a state of mind that is really unique, that is otherwise that people are kind of chasing the same experience doing drugs. Right. But you could put yourself in that state where it's extremely pleasurable. You are extremely like engaged and in body. And it's a very useful way to learn how to like train, like train your mind and your body. I think the. I wrote in the book about like, I think fighters are really good in sex for. And especially like, like combat sport fighter. And the reason being is that you would think that like fighting is about violence, right? Like you just like being aggressive and punching. But it's really about having voluntary control in a state where you're really excited. So you can't be too excited, too angry and you cannot be too sleepy and too relaxed. So you have to find this yin and yang balance of navigating that state where you could make smart decision from your subconscious and like, and you're able to tap into that. And that's what makes to me what makes a good lover. They already drilled it enough that they're not actually thinking while they're doing it, but like the things that work and do them but they're managing their state.

Interesting. Yeah, it's that balance you were talking about where it's like kindness, gentleness, but.

Also assertiveness and when to do those things.

And if you're able to subconsciously know that that's where you're great at anything.

Anything.

Like that's where like the perfect athlete knows exactly. Like a football player knows exactly how fast I have to run in order to catch the ball that's flat. Like there's all these like triangulations of that exact thing and you've done it long enough that it's just completely subconscious.

Yeah. And it's, you know, like it's. It's such a beautiful blend when you're able to do those things simultaneously or like blend them together. So you could say, you could say something to a girl in the most assertive, demanding voice. But if what you say is that, look, listen, I need you to speak up whenever you feel uncomfortable or don't want to do something. Do you understand? So you could say the nicest thing in a tone that is such a turn on interesting is when you use it. Right. So you could be spanking. Right. And it's creating this like excitement and emotional emergency which arouses the sympathetic nervous system. But you could also be very caring the next moment. And what's beautiful about like, I mean I'm a big fanboy of Andrew Huberman and he talks in when he mentioned doping Dopamine Nation, Anna's book about how the dopamine system work. What I think Sax Hacker have figured out is that the contrast is what makes it beautiful. So if you, if you are jumping to an ice bath, the relief of pain is quite pleasurable. But. But your capacity for pain is only when you stretch the range. So what we learn is that in order for pleasure, the precursor for pleasure is pain in some level or the lack or the absence of. So you able to. If you pledge a pleasure, pleasure, pleasure all the time, it gets boring.

Right.

So it's able to have the highs and the low engineer in a way that you create. It's like chasing the dragon. You can't take the same drug and expect the same result. So they figure out how to have those. The lever pull on both sides in order to optimize their capacity for pleasure.

Yeah, of course, like comedy music is the same way. Like, like the perfect note isn't perfect without like the silence that goes before it.

Yeah.

Like you need like with comedy it's the same thing. Like you need to build tension in order to release it.

Yeah.

And if it's just like joke, joke, joke, funny line, funny line, funny line, it gets exhausting. But you almost need like troughs to get the peaks.

Yeah.

And I guess it's, it's interesting when you put the analog into like maybe BDSM sex, where it's like there is intentional displeasure consensually in order to evoke the equal and opposite pleasure.

It's not necessarily the pain is not pleasurable. It's like eating spicy food. Like do you interpret that sensation as painful and as context driven? And that's like maybe I'm being too much of a sex nerd. Like Emily Lagoski's book about Come as yous Are Talking about like James Faust system, the excitatory inhibitory is like gas on brick on sex. Right. What. What determine arousal for most people is context driven. So it's not just the act. Like we're not looking at like genital rubbing. Genital. Right. Like what is happening? How is this happening? In what context this is happening. So it's not so specific to the act is your relationship and the nuance with that act that makes it different. So same exact experience could feel so different for people like that force feeding stick situation. So when you're. When you're educated about stuff like this. And again it's not that complex and it's quite not easy to learn, but it's not that big of an investment. Then you realize there's another layer. It's like if you don't know comedy, like you see the Matrix right when you go watch another guy set, like he's doing their punchline here, he's doing the setup. But if you don't understand the science and the art form at all, you just like taking for awry. But once you know, you could really curate. And I think one of the biggest problem in this generation, and I sound like an old man when I say that I'm 42, is that we in such consumer culture that we only consume arousal, we consume sexuality. So we are just this passive observer of sexuality. We don't know how to create, we don't know how to generate. Like we. They just on YouTube listening to comedy and that's their entire experience is very different than going on stage and do your set.

Right.

But you. So but what most people practice, right. And that's the conditioning bit is just observing.

Yeah. And they don't realize how fulfilling it is to create.

Yeah. And they have like. But once they know like how to create. So the tools I like giving people is like I don't want you to be on just under their passive seat. Like I want you to be in the arena. And in order for you to do that, you need to develop the skill to understand this. And for most people, like this part of their life is quite important. I think a lot of people will live very happily never doing a set right comedy show because that's more niche. But sexuality hopefully is a decent part of their lives. So it's worth that you have more than just being a passenger, you know, and learn how to create.

So what are the sexual tools that most people neglect in their sexual relationship? Like what are things that the average person could do to enhance their sex life?

Well, I work with a. My focus is on female pleasure. So the. And again sex is like so diverse. But I want to. I think the most important tool is first you have to understand that how are people differ, right. Individual differences like the wiring bit and having. And give them what that person desire. But the joke I always tell people is that imagine you Are a straight guy and you're in college and you and you just hooking up randomly and it's bizarro reverse world where the girl's like, all of a sudden you're hooking up, you're making out and she's putting on a strap on, right? And you never had butt sex in your whole life. And you're a straight guy and she's like, okay, so I'm gonna fuck your ass. And I expect you to come. And if you dare touch your penis, I slap your hand and go like, that's not how real men come, right? And then you'd be like, what the fuck? Right? Yeah. And if you think about most women, what they have to deal with is penetrative sex is not the most reliable way for this person to orgasm. And some people do so some gay men bottom all day, right? Just put a dick in my ass, right? But if you're wired on the other side, like most human, the external gland like the clearest and the head of the penis, same same. So we are actually all born with a clearest that turn into the penis. But imagine you shame like your partner shame you for touching your penis to get good sex. So touch the goddamn clit, for God's sake, is very, very important. The other thing is how they decide how they prefer that touch might vary, but once you find it, just stay consistent. That's the other thing is like rhythmic motion. And to get your body, your brain into the state called entrainment is where orgasm kind of happen. Like in this flow state. So the most annoying thing is the interruption when you get it. And it is a. Is a predictable arrow that when you see a girl responding, you go like, this is where I bust out the next move, whatever move is working, just keep doing it. Is would be my biggest tip, you know, to touch that. And also ask the person like what is the most reliable way for you to come. And that's how this person have practice and wire most of the time. And so you go to the lowest hanging fruit first. Like this is how this person come most of the time. Or not. Like some people are having a hard time orgasm period. And then after you learn the more reliable stuff, the predictable, then you could daisy chain other experiences and you could teach your body new way to have orgasm. So for example, one of the ways that I teach people how to have learn how to have orgasm from different stimulation. So the most popular is how to get from like internal sensation or. So the way to do it is use the reliable way that you Most reliable way for that person to come edge them. As in don't let them orgasm. So have a couple of warm up orgasm so it's relaxed and for most females it's quite easy. The majority could smaller refracture period. But what you do is you want to edge that person. Maybe it's a vibrator, major finger, maybe it's just tongue. Get them as close as possible. Don't orgasm, introduce the other stimulation simultaneously and just keep reducing the most reliable. You know, when you're about to come, everything feels amazing. Get to that state and then wire or new sensation to that state. Then your brain will create that connection that I could come this way, right? To a different nerve ending, to a different set of nerves. And then the brain learn, oh, I could come that way too. But it requires a level of training and intention to, to, to reach a different part of your body, to associate it with sexual sensation. And I talk about prostate a lot. Like I don't, you know, a lot of straight men would think oh, if I have any butt sex that makes me feel gay and all that stuff. No matter how straight you are in your entire life, I think it's really important for any man to play with that prostate for one reason.

I don't know, Kenneth.

No, and this is my, this is. And I'm gonna try to at least a couple of times for this one reason. And I don't mean by being pegged, I don't mean I think you should do it yourself, not with other people. But to understand what internal sensation feels like for the other person is really important because you cannot relate until you understand that when you are fucking her, right, her G spot or cervix is very similar to that sensation. And when you have, you only would develop empathy, real kind of empathy when you have that internal sensation yourself. And the other side is that like for people, for male body you could, you don't know what it's like to have a multiple orgasm until you experience one. And you cannot relate until you understand that you actually have two sets of. Not two sets, but like two. There's more ways than two. But like for your prostate to have an orgasm is a completely different sensation. It's like more radiating full body, more relaxed into it. So if you, if so one hack that I teach a lot of guys is that same thing. They try to masturbate with the penis. They don't know how to do it for, you know, they have a lot of practice edge themselves and then stimulate their prostate and don't Let their penis come. Right. I know it sounds crazy. And as soon as they have a prostate orgasm and they keep stroking the head of their cock, they will have a penile orgasm back to back from their prostate to their penis. And then they will understand the science that you could have this experience of like. Like having two orgasms, different nerve ending, and they could be blended. They could have us together, but it's two separate experiences. And until they know, they don't know. And they would never anyone the same way again once they know, bro, I.

Mean, that's kind of a big ass that you gotta explain to your girl. Yeah, yeah, I'm fingering my ass for you. Okay. I'm banging myself to understand how you feel. She's like, what?

Yeah, you'd be surprised on how changes your perspective, because I don't look at like. Like which part of your body touching does not represent your sexual orientation. But the distinction is from like a nerd science perspective is that you understand how those wirings are actually wire and what that person actually feel. It might not be exactly like you, but once you do, you're more likely to give her a internal orgasm if that's what you. You both are into by that understanding.

Right.

So if you don't know, it's like you, you. You are vegetarian chef who never tastes meat. Like, you don't have to eat it all the time, but you kind of have to know, like, what it tastes like.

It's a big ask, though. Yeah, that's a big ask.

I know.

Well, we'll see how many men will be like, all right, I'll give it a shot. But maybe, maybe more than I know. I don't know. I don't think I'm at that level.

That's why. Why, if you don't mind me, I.

Don'T know, it just seems. It's very. It seems very strange to me. Like, for me to do it to myself, at least. Like that idea would be. It would make me feel vulnerable.

I think it is quite vulnerable. And I understand and I think there's a lot of. There's a lot of stigma of that idea. Like, if you're into that sensation. But I like how Laurie Mintz talks about their pleasure gap. Like, most men would die perfectly happy without ever having an internal orgasm or prostate orgasm. You would agree with that statement.

Yeah, I think.

And they won't like cry in this deathbed about it, right?

Yeah.

Now imagine you have that same expectation for your female partner. Like, she's not a real woman until she could have an orgasm from penetration. Right. So I think that is the, that's where it's like gets hypocrite. Like as a hypocritical behavior.

Right.

Because of that. So ultimately I just want men to understand it doesn't matter if she come, like how you come, which is touching the head of the clit or the penis. Yeah. Or she prefers internal or she prefers both. All preferences is legit.

The hypocrisy makes sense.

Yeah.

A guy that's like, I don't even know. Maybe there are guys that are fucking idiots that are like, oh, you didn't come for my dick. Like, you're not a real girl. Like, I mean, that's stupid.

Over emphasizing that is quite problematic. And also it creates a world where like straight women have the least satisfaction. Like, least satisfaction when it comes to sex. Both hookup and long term relationships. Because of that.

Yeah, that makes complete sense. Yeah. I mean it's. I always thought it was crazy that girls would just hook up, like one offs. Like in college, I'm like, what are you getting out of this? Like, he's coming.

You're not.

Like, you almost never come in a hookup. Like the girls I knew in college, like, they were like, yeah, never. It never happens. I'm like, what are you doing this for? Like, like there's a disorder of risk. Like you're like going home with a random guy to not come. I'm like, dude, that does not seem worth it to me.

Yeah. And you know, people have sex with different reasons. Sometimes about connection, getting no people. Sometimes it's like being a star. Like I. I got this person into bed and there's so many reasons. But I. What I'm trying to create is a world where if most women, and even in the most casual of hookup in a straight women's context, they're having the best sex of their lives.

Right.

They're just more likely to have more sex. And you know, like, and for selfish reason, if you want more people to have more sex, it's like making sure their sex is good is a great idea.

Yeah.

So if there's more men out there contributing to their better sex equation, then they, then the women want to go out there and have more sex. Everybody wins.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. That's a good example.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna read the book.

Yeah.

And then I'm gonna fully understand, I think what you're saying about bang my own asshole.

Yeah.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna check it out. Obviously this is beyond satisfied yeah, seems. It seems thick. I'll be honest. Yeah, I think there's a lot of these, a lot of good info in here. QR codes, the whole deal.

But I designed it like intuitive video game tutorial. So it's about like skill tree. So you work it down so you don't have like. Like the thing I just showed you is like down there is the skill tree. But the idea is that you could take one single lesson and apply them. And then the more skill you develop is like having more recipe in your repertoire. You could cook more dishes, but so you start with the foundation and you work your skill tree down. But also because I'm such a education nerd, like I put QR code into like, make it into like more digestible lessons. And also I think I sent you a copy already of their video course that accompanied the book. So there's actually video demonstrating those techniques. So it's like. So sometimes it's really hard to translate word on a page.

Yeah, of course.

That's why I put the QR code, so I could show some animation when a movement on how it actually moves. Right. Both externally and internally. But it is so mind blowing to me. Like when someone they didn't know their whole life that all they need to do is just a little bit of that.

Yeah.

And.

And can unlock an entire world that you didn't even know was there.

Yeah. And for all the listener, like here's another fun sex hack. For most straight guy, when you finger someone or any internal sensation, it's not the in and out motion that creates the sensation. For for most people, it's pressure. So those nerves are pressure sensitive. So learn to create the right amount of pressure. And rhythm is way more useful. And for most, for many straight women, they never had their G spot stimulate in a way that is enough pressure for their brain to register as like, oh, this is a good kind of sensation. And we underestimate how much pressure the vagina could take. So like if you're able to massage it, like really massage it, you will see the difference and go like, oh, I just never did it that way. And it's like worlds apart from, from. And if it's like the pressure thing is really funny because there's this nerdy term called sensory threshold. You have to pass the threshold in order for the sensation to register. So until then you might never heard that note until you heard it for the first time. So it's like, oh, I didn't know that thing does that. Yeah.

Okay. Another thing that I wanted to ask from the man side. We talked a lot about pleasuring women. Okay? So enough with that. But like, for men, specifically, two things. What would you prescribe to men that have erectile dysfunction where they can't get it up? And then what do you prescribe to men that have premature ejaculation? Which. Premature ejaculation? I'm like my buddy Hans Kim, he's a comedian. He has this thing. He's like, premature to who? You know what I mean? Like, I came right when I needed to. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts on those two things?

Okay, so the first thing is about ed, Erectile dysfunction. So there's two different. There's psychological. ED is that they are in. In a stress state when they cannot. Like, they don't feel aroused because they're stressed and they're feeling anxiety. That's different than they can biologically. Like they can't. If they masturbate, they could get it up, but they can't do it in front of a partner.

Right.

They have to deal with the mindset and the psychological aspect of it.

This is you in the bathroom.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's their whole fighter mindset. You have to learn how to be calm in a stressful state. Right. And you have. And I teach this hack. What pro athlete use not to choke. So you could think of it like a quarterback about to. This is the super bowl moment. If I this up right, it'd be done. So is there a dot loop that this person might have? Right? Go. Like, if I miss this, it's gonna be over. Like my career. I work so hard for this. I'm nowhere gonna make it. So it's this native self talk. It would definitely destroy that moment. So that's why you are losing your action. Because you are feeling that way. Whatever the chatter is, right? And the negative chatter is go. Like, I should be hard. I'm not hard. And the first thing to do is accept that you are not hard right now. And you don't need to be hard because your dick is responding correctly to fear. Right. It's not a. It's not a. It's not a wrong response. It's the correct response.

Yeah. Your body's afraid.

Pull everything in.

The internal organs get small.

Yeah. So it's doing a. So your first thing is to know that it's not up. It's doing its job based on the state that you're in. And in order to alter that state, you have to first reach a level of acceptance. Because if you resist it would definitely persist. And two, it's like being sleepy. You can force yourself to be sleepy. It just happens when the environment produces itself. So if you think of it as sleeping and also the anxiety. But the second part is as soon as you're in the place of acceptance, your job is not to make yourself hard, right? But rather you refocus your mind to things that arouses you. So you take a moment and go like, my dick is going to be hard when it, when it gets hard, and it gets hard when I'm aroused, right? So that's the other formula. Then you go back into the activity that arouses you. So eroticize her. Objectify, like if you really like boobs, if you really like whatever, fantasize. So there is something called psychogenic arousal. You could think of fantasy or focus on elements of that sexual experience that arouses you. And if you truly not arouse, no matter what is happening, maybe you shouldn't be having sex right now because it's not doing it for you. So there's this cultural expectation. When sex is available, men should want it and they should be hard immediately. And that is definitely a myth. But again, their most useful hack is to calm your nervous system and literally just be a pervert, which we know how to do. It's like you're is like your pornhub scroll. Get into that mole, find the thing you want and play it. And then once you run that script, then your script, you know that script works. You just have to get back onto that script. So when the best athlete, they know when they're like optimally functioning, they just have to find themselves back into that state. So I believe a lot of psychological ed could be trained like an athlete to get into and then you could find out again, not easy to do. So I'm not saying this is easy to do, but it's definitely doable. Interesting. Yeah, Yeah.

I just, I know so many guys that are like, dude, I couldn't get it up and I was about to hook up with this girl, so I had to like go to the bathroom, like watch porn and then come back. And so I guess that's tapping into like almost like the perfect thing you were talking about where like they are like going into the script that they know works to then perform in this fearful situation.

But the unfortunate side effect of consuming porn, I'm not against. I'm like, I'm not. And I'm not on the anti porn side. And that there's still the science is up to debate about like how much conditioning you have about like consuming porn. But the distinction is that if your only reliable arousal script is consuming passively on a screen, then what is not happening is that when you associate, sex is no longer this thing that arouses you all the time is the problem. So you have to, to learn how to create arousal, not from a passive observer point of view. You have to be engaged.

And you lose that with porn. That was like always my issue with porn is that it's, it's purely selfish.

Yeah.

Like ideally sex is both parts giving and receiving and porn is just purely receiving. It's purely, just like, let me observe, Let me take it in. Let me, let me just have this. Whereas I think sex in its purest form is reciprocity. And it is like union.

It's a dance between two people. And then if you only in a passive consumer level, it's really hard. So I think encouraging men who struggle with this to, first of all, it's okay to suck at sex too. So like, it's okay that you stumble if you have a supportive loving partner. Like, it's okay to take a period of time to rewire yourself. So I'm not on this, like never masturbate like a semen retention camp. But if you always ejaculate all the time, do masturbation and you're lowering your sex drive and your desire because you're more satiated. So create hunger like the pain thing that we talk about. So create their, their, their absence off to drive your desire for. Right. And at the same time learn to feel that, oh, I, I use this aid all the time. That is my only script and I want to expand my script. So I'm going to focus on this and let that, that period of time when it's like, it doesn't feel. Because you are comparing your level of arousal from your like watching porn to this situation, if you making that, that comparison, then you go like, why is this thing not doing as well as this thing that I'm so comfortable with? And that transition period would take a little bit of time, but we're not talking about that long. I think most reconditioning takes like two weeks to a month for your nervous system to recalibrate. So it's about calibrating things relatively quick. Yeah, but if you, but if you reinforce meaning that you feel like real life sex, I suck and I do this and you do this one over and over again and you start have a negative association with that and that will make your ed worse because you're just reinforcing that loop. So it takes a little bit of time. Like if you never worked out in your life and you hate working out, you have to go to the gym in the beginning, not kill yourself, but like get into the rhythm of it. And most people underestimate that early price that you pay for conditioning. And then it becomes, oh, I feel bad if I don't go. Yeah, you definitely need that. That adaptation period, is that a good.

Indicator, like if you're not able to get hard without porn, that maybe you should try to wean off of it for a period?

Yeah. And also explore, given the right partner. Right. It's also, it's like accessibility, convenient problem. Right. Because it's so convenient on the other side and engaging with another human seems so difficult and I mean it is inherently more difficult.

Difficult.

Yeah. Because there requires giving and ultimately I think it depends on that person. Like what, like what would you, how would you want your sex life to be? You are definitely, you could have reliable great pornhub sex on your phone all day, every day. And if you want partner sex or engaging in real sex, if you value that, then invest in the training and the condition that it would take you to, to find like to develop that arousal.

Yeah. Do you think the accessibility of porn has, has partially led to the decrease in sex that young people are having?

I don't know if they have a study that truly proved that is a causality of those two, but I suspect that it has, it definitely has an impact. Because of the convenient factor. Yeah. Like if you feel the need, but you could order it. Like people cook less because they could order food. Yeah, exactly. I think that, that, that correlation is very, very possible. But it's like Michael Port wrote this book about cooking, like selling people on the act of cooking. I think it's really important just selling people. Go for God's sake, like have the other version too and find the joy in creating.

Like. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing and I completely get it. If you're like 18 year old kid, you're in college, you know something and you can either go to a bar or a club or go to a thing, try to meet someone, try to flirt with them, get rejected, maybe, maybe there's a spark, maybe you guys can hook up and have sex. That process is a thousand times harder than opening your phone. Yeah.

But the surprising thing is when you're good in bed, it really changes everything there is. You know, like when you're a good comedian, you walk into a comedy Club. There's a swagger about you that you just. It's different. Yeah. So I think the struggle is only if. If you don't invest in your ability, but if you're good in bed, you just don't have the same level of anxiety going into the situation. And your confidence come from a level of competence. Right. That you know, it's not like you fake it till you make it kind of thing. When you have it, it becomes. It's so accessible because it's so. It's such a lack in the marketplace. Like, it's so rare for straight guys to be good in bed and you're good. And if you live in my world, I get tons of referral sex because of. Of it from other girls who sleeps with me and go like, oh, my girlfriend wants to play with you from referral. Which is a bizarre like idea in other, other, other community. But referral sex happens all the time in our community. So you do have like a micro Yelp review inside our community that your reputation, that part matter because you're doing in a social setting. There are downside of apps that you could treat someone like and no one would know about it. So in my side, it's like very parents.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's the Ed part.

Yeah.

What about the premature part?

Well, I rather end premature penetration than premature ejaculation. So I think far more people were trying to fuck before she's ready. So I'll just make that joke about premature penetration is the worst. So don't do that. But premature ejaculation it also determined. Are we talking about like five seconds to what people think? Like four minutes. Right. So premature is it that time is really like how long are we talking about? Like most people from straight like just continuous stimulation when it's good. Right. They don't. It's not really last like in porn forever. It's like, I don't know, anywhere from four to nine minutes is average for most people. So when people are comparing that to all like, no, like you should fuck all night, that's not the case. However, back to the fighter analogy. In order for you to have orgasm, you have to have enough sympathetic arousal. So it's that excitement phase, right. That you could learn how to manage how much of that. That excitement built in your body. So my own coach, Dustin Garrick, who evolved, who wrote Evolve Masculine, has this amazing program to teach people how to manage the amount of arousals as they could last longer. Meaning you reach your tipping point. You could slow down the way you reach a tipping point. And I want to separate the idea of climax. So when you reach a tipping point, you reach a point of no return and then you just have an orgasm, right? The subjective experience of having pleasure and orgasm could be elevated by the amount of excitement and sensation that you could hold in your body without tipping over. So if you look at a different context, it's like when you say build up with tension in comedy and then release of tension. So orgasm happened in the same way they're building and releasing. So it's how much you could build before you reach the point that you have to release is malleable. But the difference is we are all born with a different level of excitatory inhibitory system where you talk about the gas and brake. For some people, they have no brake and their gas just like once they push, they redlining immediately. So they might reach that threshold much earlier, right? Some people have to like their brakes are always on and they even get turned on and their accelerator is so slow that it takes them forever. So those people, you have to like train it in reverse. But we all born with a, that, that system, the inhibitory excitatory is. That's a roll of a dice. But it's really up to shame men who just happen to have a like higher accelerator and no brakes. Like in women, we celebrate the out of them because they come like if you sneeze, right? They come over and over again because they're born with that nervous system in the right body, right? For. But for men, if you have that system right now, then you're ashamed because you cannot last. You, you make fun of that guy. And also there is. But we also never give men the tool tools to understand those experiences. Like you feel it when you are getting there. And if you are not conscious, meaning you're not paying attention. So it's really good to be embodied when you are absorbed in your experience. But when you could be a observer of your experience and you could go like, oh, this is where I need to slow down, you know, or this is where I need to take a breath. Or this is where I need to. This is how energy. I actually don't love those terms. But like when you feel the energy building in your body or the sensation building in your body, the default involuntary response is to build and contract, right? To create more tension so you reach the point of release. What men don't realize is that you could learn to relax when your body default system is conditioned to contract. So for example, if I poke you in the eye right now, you will blink automatically. But if I tell you not to blink and you pay attention not to blink, you could override it. So that's why I use sex hack a lot. You could learn to override some default settings if you learn how to control the part. It's like having a super user access. But those hacks works when you realize there is another like a thing that you can control from those experiences. So you could. So the key is actually relax more. Right. And accept everything and chase nothing is like very fighting philosophy. But it is. You could learn to have ejaculatory choice if you train it. And I have seen men who suffered that their entire life, who worked on it. And it's not easy. Like with Dustin Scarrick's group. Like, I'm mind blown. Like, fortunately I don't suffer from like dealing with like coming too early for most of my life is not a, not a struggle for me. But I have seen men like, it just, it's devastating for them, right. To disappoint their partner and then realize they could actually train it to a point they could choose to come when they want to come. And I think that skill is definitely workable and you could develop it. So. And humans been doing it for centuries, you know, on how to do those things. So you could adapt some of the ancient technique to like mix it with a little bit of modern science. It works really well, but it's not a small investment when it comes to male sexuality. Because the only downside is that because when we do ejaculate, the prolactin release in our brain is basically where we have to. It's game over for now, for this moment. So you could still actually have orgasm without the ejaculation part. So you have to learn to separate the ejaculation from their subjective experience of orgasm. So you could learn to not trigger their. Yeah. And then also have an orgasm. So there's guys who learn to have multiple orgasm, not with their prostate thing, maybe that's too, too fancy, too fabulous. But you could, you could learn to separate them. And it took a long time for me to learn to have the early stage of that. So it is, it's a challenge, but it's definitely doable.

Yeah. It seems like a lot of mindfulness. Like it, like I feel like you're almost speaking like meditative terms.

Yes. So that's why all the Tantra and all their like look a little new Agey for that bit. But they're, they're. There's A level of relaxation and control. And like, when you're trying to regulate something, like, you would start to understand, like, when you're trying to inhibit something. Right. Versus you're trying to get it more exciting. If you don't understand the gas and the brick, you're just kind of like in the back seat. That's the problem, right?

Yeah. You're just along for the ride.

As soon as you know how those two pedals work right. Then you could. You could play around and you could have just enough, you know?

And I feel like that's like, what most animals do. Like, you watch, like, animals have sex on, like, National Geographic or Discovery Channel. Like, they're just going 20 seconds, boom. They're running away. Like, it's very much like a primal. Like your body's just naturally doing that, whereas we have the consciousness and the mindfulness to sort of separate those that behavior and sort of suppress it.

Yeah.

What is the best thing for relaxing? Like, if dudes listen, he's like, okay, how do I relax? Like, breathing. Is it just like mindfulness? Like, is it. What could you do?

I mean, breath is so classical, right? Because you could pay attention to the sensation of breath going in and out. But more importantly, you have to. So there's this term, science term called interoception. I think Hooverman talked about it too. It's like everything inside your skin, you're feeling the sensation of your own body. So if you close your eyes right now and you pay attention to the tingling sensation on your calves, it has been there this entire time, but we haven't put any of our bandwidth into that particular place on our body. The second thing is that relaxation is. Is a. Is a skill. So you literally see if you could relax your lower back a little bit more, and then you will start to notice, oh, I tense this way. And this is what it feels like to relax. So you don't have a certain awareness of when things are contracting. And when you start masturbating and you pay attention, you go like, I do this thing all the time, or I do this thing all the time. And you go, like, if I learn when that involuntary thing is happening, and you could learn to override it, then you gain voluntary control. So it's just really about manipulating something involuntary into voluntary.

Do you meditate a lot?

I wish I meditate more. And I find that I find flow state in doing, like, sex stuff or, like, varied things that require all my concentration. The easiest hack for me to do, like, get into a meditative state. But it's definitely. Usually is not sitting there observing nothing.

Yeah.

Is being really intensely focused on whatever a activity is, is my preference.

Yeah, I've heard that from a few people. Like, that's. I always say that's why I like motorcycles. It's like, I drive a bike, and I like it for the reason that it requires all of my focus.

Yeah.

Like, you don't have a choice. It is like life or death. If I'm thinking about something else or I'm checking my phone, that could be my life.

That's the exact skill when you know how you got into that state. Right. And then you know the importance of getting in the state. So if you learn whatever that. You know, when in sex, if you learn to tap into that. Right. But you also have to, like, have the mindset go, like, this is dangerous. I need to do this. So you have to, like. It's a mind trick on a motorcycle. It's more real. Right. It's, like, happening right now.

Yeah.

So you just could learn to, like, tap into that would. Or without you being on the bike is the key.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And your vice documentary, I thought was very cool. It came out fairly recently, like. Yeah, once.

Yeah.

The whole focus on it was just. Was squirting. Yeah, that's the whole thing. So do you teach classes for this?

That's how I actually became a sex educator. I was, like, upset. Can I tell you a quick funny story? So I was at a party, right? And I was super still sexually insecure at the time, but I was, like, trying to navigate and learning. Then I saw this guy in the corner of the room, right? And this, like, beautiful woman lining up up with him. Like, crazy line. I'm like, what is happening? And then I see a bunch of girls squirting and, like, having orgasm. And I'm like, no way. And I look at that guy. It's like, he's not that hot. Dick is no bigger than mine. And no billionaire, like, what is happening? So then he has this one party trick that he makes a bunch of girls squirt. So I became, like, obsessed about learning about this thing. And thank God, later I realized that it's not just a party trick and it's the whole voluntary, involuntary thing. But ultimately, what I realized in that moment is a skill thing when it comes to, like, those things. So I got so deep in that rabbit hole, I became the expert on, like, deconstructing all the squirting technique that I ever saw. And. And then I study it, like, like a scientist, and go like this is the most reliable, this is what is required. And it's from my fitness background. So then I got invited to teach squirting for a sex party from an organizer. And I. I was still really sexually insecure at that time. And I was like, no way I'm going to teach sex. But I go like, I don't mind. Skill sharing is what I have learned for, you know, the last two years. So all of a sudden I'm in this beautiful penthouse of a sex party. There's like 16, 15 couples in the room and they never squirted before. And I'm about to teach this thing. And I was really nervous because I taught fitness for a really long time. Just comfortable showing like movement or whatever the case be leading a room. But I didn't realize that I could get into group flow with a bunch of people where I could synchronize their experience. Like when you go to a wave or like a festival, you could just get into the same beat with arousal as well. And all of a sudden I have a room of people where I'm coaching them the technique and adjusting everybody like a yoga class. And then all of a sudden, 15 people were squirting for the first time like the Bellagio in a penthouse hotel. And I just had a epiphany at that moment. Go like, wow, I didn't know that I could teach this. I didn't know that it's that effective that quickly. And then I love teaching fitness, but it takes forever to get any results. So that's when my career was born and since then because it's how like over glorified on porn and the Internet. But I love teaching squirting for a couple of reasons. One, I get to talk about sex myths, like here's the real science, here's all the bullshit. It is P. Yeah, yeah. So you have their people think it's only pee in that cam and then other signs of ski scan and then their bladder being filled up with liquid faster but without bored you with the science. What is really interesting about squirting specifically is about what I shared earlier about pressure is dialing enough pressure, enough speed, and also stimulating the clit and the G spot at the same time that it a really good lesson for the person who's providing the pleasure. And then the other side is that on the receiving end, right. Remember, it's all context driven into what we feel. So in order for that sensation to feel good to people's body, they have to be in this receptive, relaxed, trusting state where they Allowing their body to do what it wants to do. So the lesson for the receiver is to not to control, right. And. And. Or control something else. So, for example, when you feel that. That squirting sensation, which a lot of women have felt in their life, right? But that. What they associate that feeling is, I'm gonna pee on my partner. So what they subconsciously do is that they. They hold it right because they feel the embarrassment of, you know, I don't want to pee on my partner, or whatever the case may be, whatever their association is. And that inhibitory behavior is what prevents them from having orgasm and pleasure in the first place. So my goal when I teach squirting is to teaching people how to relax those pelvic floor muscle or bear down a little bit to go with it in order for that sensation to be registered as pleasure. And it could build up to orgasm. So I could coach two people at the same time on, like, many important lessons. So one is like, biomechanic. Don't get your hand all burned out. And the other one is about allowing. So one of my favorite story, when I was working with a model doing a demo teaching, and we were just rehearsing, and she said that, you know, like, like, like I was practicing where she squirted and she started crying and a lot. And I was like, oh, so many people. So many girls cry after squirting for the first time. And I was like, is this like, some science to it? And ultimately, when I talked to her, she's like, you know, similar story. Like, when I first start having sex, I have those sensations. As soon as I feel them, I just. Just feel embarrassed and I clamp up. So I. This is the first time I ever just let go. And the whole idea of letting go, as in surrendering to a receptive state, and she go, like, this is the first time I just follow my body instead of trying to control my body. And she's like, it feels really good to trust my own body. Is the lessons for her Interesting.

So is this crying, like, just the release of tears, or are they actually, like, crying because they just accepted their body?

Accepted their body? I think. I think that is. I mean, obviously I don't live in that body, so I can't say for sure, but it's a relief that you no longer have to hold your fart. Like, kind of, fuck it.

I've cried about that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, letting go and surrendering, it's not even about the other person, right? It's about like, Like, I don't Want to feel embarrassed or shame. Obviously not arousing. It's not very different than a guy who couldn't get it up right because he's thinking he's going to be humiliated or embarrassed. So teaching people not to be in that. That state and also like, sort of the nerve stuff is really fun too, because once they touch their G spot or a spot at the right calibrate to the right level to that person is really aha. Moments like, oh, hello.

And it requires both parties to be on board with it. Like, you can't just teach one or the other.

Yes. And. But it's fun teaching a group class like this because it's much easier to follow the group than to do this independently. So it's like, like most people like to go to a spin class or like for that group experience because they don't have to think and lead. So when I'm coaching couples online or in person, they don't have to. They could be in the consumer between the consumer mode and engagement mode, which is like the hybrid between the two. So I could kind of like ease them into the experience and then just. Just give them drills like any group fitness instructor would do and eventually just fall into not thinking because they're doing a thing.

Interesting. And so I'm sure there's some women listening that are like, oh, I can't. It's not possible for me to do that. Do you think it's possible for anyone to do it under the right circumstances?

Okay, so first is the definition of squirting. Is it an explosion of fluid? Right. Doing a sexual act? Right. So if we use that definition, then I think, oh, I gotta get killed for maybe saying this. I hate to use. Everybody can't, like, can. And of course it's something. Some cases that is not true. But I think the best way to explain this to, To. To. To a audience who's not like, so sex nerd heavy, if you own a penis, you. I'm sure that's one time in your life you had a hard on and you needed to pee. Were you able to pee when you had a hard on? And most guys would say yes. And how did you do it? Is not natural. Like, there's a moment you go like, oh, I need to pee, but I'm hard. And like, you're trying to aim it.

Yeah.

But you somehow find a way to. To relax it enough to pee. So how. This is my hypothesis and mixed with scientific fact about the anatomy. But the UFO sponge, which is the G spot, basically gets swelled up doing sexual stimulation to pin down to create pressure against your urethra. So liquid cannot escape. So the swelling of the G spot is engorgement. Right. Like it's like a tube and the p. The pee hole is right. Literally suppresses pinching the tube tube. The same thing when you have a hard on. When you have an erection, you're pinching that tube. So it's just harder for liquid to come out. Right. But you could override that. So technically, if you could pee, right? The idea of you could pee if liquid could come out of your bladder. If you learn to not pinch or over like and sometimes your body want to release that liquid like involuntarily, that is pleasurable for you. The debate about pee is that what is being created during the time. Is it like same household urine that you have every day? Not the case. From what we learned from science is that doing sex your. Your soda sponge and there's also glands. It could build up some fluid. And that's the milky white substance, kind of like a prostate fluid for women. And the other stuff is that the liquid that builds up from your bladder will rapidly fill up doing sexual stimulation. Like we like engorgement in that area. So their bladder would build up much faster. So it does in my hypothesis is that it does not go to the same filtration system that you to make urine. Because the goal is not to make urine. The goal is just to fill it up so that liquid inside is way more watery. So the idea is go pee before. So you, you. You want to remove the trace of urine as much as possible. And then your body will build up this liquid during sex. And for some, for some women, it's extremely pleasurable for that release. For some of them, it does nothing for them. For some of them, they eroticize it. So I don't think squirting is good or bad. It depends on the personal preference. But I do know for a fact that if you inhibit your sexual function is not a good time. So it's ultimately about letting go. So some women will involuntary or naturally will lean towards the squirting bit. Right. And they just repress it their whole life. Right? Some people is not their go to and they have to learn how to do this thing. But either way is fine. So some people would have a subjective experience while squirting, orgasming while they're. They're squirting. Some has no relation to orgasming.

Right. But in general, most people feel better with bodily acceptance. Like allowing your body to flow in whatever way that Is is.

Is more pleasurable for most people it's function acceptance. So accepting a function is like oh, I shouldn't like it's like oh, I hate myself. I'm really sleepy right now. It's like okay, I'm tired, I should go to sleep. It's is similar to that the other way. The body acceptance piece is. Is a completely different. It's a completely different story because what it does is when you don't feel comfortable about your body right it's really hard to get sexually aroused because it's such a high in it inhibit you so much from being aroused when you don't feel good about your body. And that's why it's so tricky with the body positive movement. And I love talking sometimes about controversial topic. The reason that I feel that a lot of women are female fighting for that idea is that if female arousal and again could be a gross generalization but it require for them to feel hot about themselves. So if the message is that you're not hot, it totally kills that game. So it doesn't matter how you look. But if you don't feel hot, no good sex. So it's to claim your rights to feel good about yourself in order to have pleasurable sex. I'm all for it. Interesting, right? It's a requirement. It's not even a nice to have like if you don't feel good. That's why I hope all the genital shame and not feeling good about anything makes like bad sex with this gun.

Do you think it's more prevalent in women than men or is it kind of across the board?

It depends on the school you're listening to. But like another way to phrase that is that most guys don't understand why dick pic is not arousing to a woman. Because again not all women but the idea of arousal on the other side is for them to feel sexy, not for them to see you and get turned on. Completely different thing. So if you really want to turn a girl on, the idea is to make her feel like she's the fucking hottest sexiest thing alive. Then she be aroused as. Yeah, so it is different. Like when we get turned on it's not like I'm so hot. Like that is not usually not the place that our brain go but on, on on mate selection on that side it's about why all the grooming, all the makeup and all the thing is about the attraction. But the feeling inside is that I feel hot. So that's the misunderstanding about female arousal for most guys that that another really good hack is make them feel really hot.

Yeah. I guess that's the difference between men and women, generally speaking, is that men, I think, are aroused by women and by their bodies. And they think, oh, I want her to be aroused by my body. But in order for her to accept the arousal of your body, she must first accept that she herself is worth being aroused by.

Yeah. And, like, you could tell when she's like, I didn't shave my legs. I don't feel comfortable. I'm not turned on. Then tell her to go, oh, honey, let's get you a spa day. Like, do the thing to help them feel aroused is about their own vanity.

And then they will be aroused by you.

When they are aroused, that's when they look. It's a very. And I don't know if it's always true, but, like, soon as they feel sexy, that's when the selfie comes on. That's when they flirt, but until that moment, they hide.

Whereas men are almost the opposite, where it's like, I see an attractive person and then I'm aroused. Whereas for women, it's like, I feel attractive and then I'm aroused.

Or they are like, more erotica. I mean, women consume way more erotica. Right. Reading than. And most erotica is written for women by women. Right. So it's a lot. A lot of it is erotic context, the scenario. Their idea of, like, tension being chased, like their scenario. So it's just a different strategy because it's not only based on the visual system. So guys are only visual system majority of time. So if you understand the erotic mind of a woman and you understand this is their precursor to everything, then it's. If you set up the right condition, it's really like magic. Like, this is the state. It's like, imagine, like, sometimes it's hard to tell women too. Like, I'm sorry that you have to deal with male ego. Yeah. But I don't know what to tell you. If the guy is not into being shame or degradation or embarrassment. You telling them they suck in bed is not going to encourage them.

Yeah.

So in order for this to work in that particular moment. Right. Don't hackle your comedian on stage. Not the right strategy. So then I talk about male confidence when I'm coaching the women's side, I go, like, I know, I'm sorry. I want to live in a world that you can say whatever and it.

Will work if you want men to be a part of it, you have to consider.

There you go. Same thing on the other side. You want her to be turned on. I don't know if you have a.

No, no, no, no, I'm good. This is the last thing I'll ask you though. So I'm curious, what do you believe in? Like, this is big quotes, but like sexual energy. Like, like you'll meet people and you'll just be like, oh, wow, they exude so much sexual energy. And then maybe you'll meet other people and you're like, oh, they don't exude any sexual energy. Like, that is like a colloquialism that people will use. What do you think of that term?

I think when people are comfortable with their sexuality, it's very attractive. When they could flirt freely, right. And, and use that as a asset or ability. Like sometimes I love, like how Chinese people phrase things. When someone have a good body, they, they call it body, asset, like wealth. Like, this is a, this is a, this is a value you have. So you might be like good looking. It's like all good things that you could use, right? So, so if, if I lost my train of thought about. Wait, ask me that one more time.

Sexual energy. So when you meet someone that exudes sexual energy or they don't exude sexual energy, what is happening interpersonally that you think why they are someone that is like, oh, wow, this person is sexual and they're attracted to me just based off of their aura.

Back to the like feeling comfortable with yourself. So you are more likely to show what you're comfortable with. So when you're embodying you in touch with your sexuality, that is a very attractive energy. And also about the, that you just connected my dots. It's about like seduction, right? So when you have a good body or you have like, there's a, it's a, it's really a power, right. I don't look at our sexuality as a power that we could use for good, right. Ideally. But it is a power. So seduction, attraction, sexuality. So when people are really embodied, they can, could utilize this hopefully with ethics, right? Or you could utilize it in an evil way too. And the other interpretation of energy is there's the physical sensation that people feel when they feel like sexual energy building up. And, and there's actually a quite nerdy scientific explanation for it, especially with like chakra system. And so when I interviewed Dr. Barry Kammesrek, who wrote the Science of Orgasm, he offered me this crazy paradigm shift, like such a big aha moment. And it's a great way to end this interview that. So without getting Too nerdy. Like the vagus and hypogastric nerve. And for it's a wandering nerve for people to understand it like out spread throughout a body. Not connected to the spine, the vagus nerve, but because they're wandering wandering nerve. And those nerves are also responsible for the subjective experience of emotion. So like the motion part of emotion. So we know when you have a feeling, you have a physical like sensation to it, right. Like I want to cry, I want to laugh. And sometimes it's uncontrollable, those nerves kind of like gut level feeling. So what happened is, is that when people are blocked, right. Or like inhibited, they don't let that flow of their own emotion and the function pressure. They're trying to regulate everything. They feel that habit. So what I realized is that if you want to train someone to have the most like amazing receptive type of full body orgasm, they really have to be not only in touch with their emotion, but they allow their body to feel the full range of physical motion and emotion with everything. So the more rigid and the more shut down and more control you are, the harder to have sex, the more you are truly able to let emotion flow to your body. Then you let that energy, right, that sensation that kind of builds up throughout your whole body. Kind of like crying, not very different. So I don't know, this might be a cancelable opinion or quote like why people like having sex with like crazy people and they want to gender it. The idea is that they so inhibited, they just feel everything.

So there's a rawness to their emotions.

There'S a rawness to their feelings. So they're fun because they're not restricted, they're not inhibited by like rules or whatever. But because of that flow is very hot. But soon as trying to control that bit, then the flow is regulated. So. But I don't, I'm not against regulating. Right. I might, I. What I'm preaching is that you could have voluntary control as well when you want to restrict your emotion. Because you don't want to cry every day when you feel a feeling. But you also don't want to have no ability to cry when you need to cry. So it's like having that, that, that.

Flex is really chase nothing except everything.

Yeah, yeah.

I got a lot to learn.

Yeah.

I'm going to read up. Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing your lifestyle and sharing your work and what you do and, and hopefully people that are listening can, can learn and unlock part of their sex life that they didn't know they had and. And hopefully help some of the men, specifically, that are suffering, you know, dealing with dating and feeling frustrated and getting out of it, and obviously helping women that are frustrated and suffering with, you know, sort of a. An incompatibility with their sex life.

So, yeah, thank you so much for having me.

I think what you're doing.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.