Boost Your Business With Your Alter Ego

How many hours a day do you spend on YouTube or Google searching for graphic design related answers? How many times a day do you look at your computer screen with your creative insecurities staring back at you? It's time we set aside a few hours for us to focus on our creative skills so we can show up better for our clients, our coworkers, our followers, and most importantly, ourselves. In just 5 days, you can improve your design skills and go from self-taught to to totally confident. Sign up today for the free Design Skill Challenge that we kick off next week. If you're looking to grow into an even more badass designer, join me, Mrs. Wheeler, and some awesome design experts for 6 weeks as you take what I like to call design school in a bottle. The Becoming a Better Designer course begins June 1st, and you do not want to miss it. Visit jellycreativecode.com to learn more about enrollment today.

I like to say I've been getting paid to design for like over 15 years, so I've always been freelancing in some respect.

Welcome to my podcast, The Red Door, where humans share their stories. Our stories are what bring us together, connect us, and how we feel a little less lonely, giving you the reminder that you are not on this journey by yourself. As a collective, we share emotions and feelings, not the same way, But we each know what anger feels like, frustration, abandonment, insecurity, and what shit is fake or not in alignment with us. It is my mission to provide a platform for you to get vulnerable and share your experiences with the world. There is always at least one person listening who will be transformed by your message. Remember that the next time imposter syndrome pops up and tells you you aren't ready, or you aren't good enough, or that no one cares. Tell that voice to fuck off and then DM me. I'm here for you now and always. Not just to hype you up, but to guide you down a path of mindset shifts so you can do the holy shit this is hard inner work and create the life you love. If you're ready, enter here.

I am so stoked to talk to you because—

Same.

Pretty awesome shit going on. Like, Tell me how you came up with your character. Like, tell me everything about that journey.

So for anybody that doesn't know what it is, it's— I like to call her my alter ego because for people that don't know who Mrs. Wheeler is, it's like, um, could be a little odd. You're like, wait, it's, it's you, but it's not. Like, do you— is there something going on here, Jamie? So, uh, Yeah, I— so it started, I was a graphic design teacher for 5 years and I left to go full-time with my graphic design business, but I really missed teaching and I missed, like, I've always loved like history of graphic design and just like trying to immerse myself in the knowledge of the, the like community and just everything about it. So I missed the students, I missed the teaching, and I just noticed that there wasn't anything like— people were doing education on Instagram and on social media, but it was more like how to run your design business or to be a freelancer, you know, I didn't see anything that was specific to learning the like technicalities and the history of design, which you learn in design school and which I went to, but a lot of people are self-taught now and they're amazing. Like there's nothing bad about that. And so I was like, I feel like there's probably a need there. And so I wanted to do that. And then also the idea just came to me to like deliver it via this like quirky character that's like a persona that's an actual like teacher. And so Mrs. Wheeler was born, I like, I think fall of 2019. I think that's right. And she was very well received. So she's just kind of been putting out, for a while she was doing like weekly videos. It's now once a month. She does like a video lesson about graphic design. So the one that last month was women in graphic design, this month is all about the color, different colors and the color psychology. But she makes, she makes like boring topics fun. Like who wants to learn about, you know, like when you hear history, it's like, ugh. But with her, she's very like over the top. Think like, she's like the friend's mom that's like super embarrassing but also really fun to be around. Like the kids like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. But then the friends are like, your mom is so funny.

I love it. Oh my God. I think that I am a mix of both of that because I want to be the funny mom. But my husband just keeps telling me that I'm gonna be like super embarrassing and then I always think of the mom from Mean Girls and I'm like, that might be me at some point, like not even wanting to be but just because like—

That's just how it goes.

Personality, yeah, so I'm like, it's like kind of embarrassing but kind of not. So I love it and I watched her videos and oh my gosh, hilarious.

I—

it was so great and I really do love that she does bring like so much personality. And so it makes everything very interesting, which I love. So is that some sort of like, do you have like a roll-in offer? Like if people watch her and they're like, okay, I want to learn more about design or I need like design help. Like, is that what you provide then?

Yeah.

So I knew I had always— courses are just very popular right now. And I feel like everyone has a course on this, that, or the other thing. And I was like, well, what the heck? I was an actual teacher. Like, that was what I did every day was, you know, lesson plan and do courses. So I was like, how hard could it be to do a course? So, um, but I didn't want to— I didn't want that to be the reason I did Mrs. Wheeler. I just wanted to like provide that information that I saw missing. So, uh, I think it was almost a year after the first year of her, uh, Mrs. Wheeler's debut, if you will, uh, I, I started my first course. And so she is involved in the course, so she— but not like 100%. I thought that You know, you got to have her in doses. You can't have her doing the whole course. She'd lose her glamour. So she like does the history and like the intros for each lesson in the course. And so we did that last fall for the first time. So that was really cool and exciting to like, you know, give people the chance to feel like a more intimate experience with her and apply it to like a bigger like lesson feel and course feel than just little quick videos online. So we're doing the course again. Actually, it's going to be launching the end of May. So like in about a month, we'll be doing the next round.

So, and how long, how long are the— how long is the course?

Yeah. So the course is, I'll give like the quick little pitch. It's, it's called Becoming a Better Designer and it's all about, it's for self-taught designers and like designers just starting out and anybody that has some, some design knowledge but didn't like necessarily go to design school. And then also maybe the few that went to design school, but it's been a while or they forgot stuff. So it's looking at like technical skills, design process, design history, and then like a little bit of design business stuff. So, and it's 6 weeks long. So each week is a different lesson. So we've got like fundamentals of design, design process, typography, licensing, copywriting, and a bunch of other related things. And so it, it's a kind of go at your own pace, but then we also have like actual times where we come together and, uh, on Zoom or whatever, and we talk. We have like, you know, I guess like a bonus lesson that's in person. Um, and so that's every now and then throughout the course. And maybe Mrs. Wheeler makes an appearance at those. You have to wait and see.

That sounds so fun. I keep like envisioning, um, Mrs. Doubtfire, you know that video where he like puts his face like into the cake and he's like, "Hello!" Like, that's what I'm picturing. Oh my gosh, that's just so funny.

Yeah, so I don't know, this is like a really weird roundabout thing, but on Oprah when she used to like scream and do like, I don't know, she had like her Oprahisms. There's an episode, this is like really weird, there's an episode of 30 Rock where Liz Lemon, the main character, pretends to be Oprah. And she's like, "Liz Lemon!" So I used to enter my classroom and be like, I don't, I wouldn't say Liz Lemon, but I'd be like, "Hello!" And they didn't know what the heck it was about, but it just, I had seen it and it happened. So then when I started doing Mrs. Wheeler videos, she now like says, "Hello!" But that's what I used to actually do in my classroom. It was like, you know, I had to embarrass them a little bit.

Oh yeah, obviously. That's so great. What grade or what level did you teach?

It was high school, so 9 through 12. It was an all-girls school, which was awesome because, you know, it's just like a little bit more relaxed because they're not trying to impress anybody and they just can be themselves a little bit more. So, so yeah, I taught 9 through 12. I taught like Graphic Design 101 basically. And then also I was the yearbook teacher, and so, uh, which was actually really fun. Um, I love that class. And, and then I did, I did graphic design work and PR for the school since it was a private school. Um, so I was like kind of doing a little bit. At one point I did teach gym, which was quite an experience.

Wow. Yeah, that's kind of like polar opposites a little bit.

Oh my gosh, I look back and I'm like, what What did I teach those, those poor girls? I hope they're doing okay in life.

I'm sure. I like think back to my gym classes and like, what were we doing? Like, you know those little tiny scooters that were only like 2 inches above the floor? So many fingers being like rolled over and like scooting and like running into each other. I'm like, whoa. And that was like gym class.

Yeah. I guess that's how we were active, but I mean, like, we were still sitting down.

Yeah, I know. I was just thinking that it's like a glorified office chair. If you were like scooting, maybe that's like some ab work because you're like—

Yeah, yeah.

Oh my gosh, so dangerous, but also so fun. And I just remember like my gym teacher like standing across the gym, like maybe not even watching. That's probably how I would teach gym now too. I'd be like, I don't know, dodgeball, I guess.

Yeah, there's definitely times where I'm like, "Aush, this is how I think you do it, but I'm gonna make you think that I know that's how I do it." Like basketball, you can't tell because I'm sitting, but I'm only 5 feet tall. So when it came to the basketball lesson, thankfully I had some basketball players in the class. I'm like, "Why don't you show us how to do a follow-through?" What that should— meanwhile, I'm over here like, "It should look like a swan. That's as much as I can give you." Like this.

Now watch the demonstration. I love it. That's a perfect way to teach. Okay, so let's talk about going from teaching. And did you have a curriculum like given to you and you just like followed a certain, you know, like baseline? Or did you—

a little bit. I came in, it kind of transformed over time. It was like I came in and it was more of like a journalism class, but a lot of like Photoshop work and like some branding. So we just evolved it over time as we saw a need for like, uh, less journalism and more like design. Cause that's, you know, a very popular, like it's a very useful thing to know. Um, and I feel like a lot of them have like all the apps that can do everything, but don't necessarily, I mean, we all do, but to understand like the, the process and the why and the how. So it was a lot. I, there was another teacher that I worked with, so we did have some baseline, but it was a lot of like kind of, even when you have a baseline, it's teacher, it's still like planning day to day because it's like, well, okay, this is a half day, or oh, it's a snow day, or oh, there's an assembly today, or oh, midterms are next week, so we have to finish that by this time. So I am— yes, I enjoyed it. I'm glad that I didn't do it in 2020, and I am grateful for all of those that did.

Oh my gosh, teaching is like— I thought at one point point that I wanted to be a teacher. And looking back, I feel like I would have just taken the approach of like Jack Black in School of Rock. I just, I don't even know if I would have been able to like manage, you know? I would have just been like, listen, I don't even know what we're gonna talk about today. Recess, I guess, all day. So yeah, teaching is incredible. I mean, my mother-in-law is a teacher and just like watching her and how she interacts with my 8-year-old. Like, it's just so— I just look at her with like angelic, like she's an angel. So how was that transition going from like being a teacher to then becoming a business owner and like mapping out a course for yourself, you know, for new students? Like, what was that like?

I like to say I've been getting paid to design for like over 15 years. So I've always been freelancing in some respect, just not full-time. So I, I was just wearing too many hats. Like, I loved them all, but it was the classic, like, you can't give 100% to everything. So I, uh, I was getting enough clients that I was working all night and grading all night and then going to work the next day. And so it was— it kind of hit me when my husband was like, so when are we gonna like Remember me? When are we going to spend some time together? And I was like, oh, personal life. Yes, I need that back. So I decided that was the sign that I needed to go full-time, which I had always knew I wanted to do. And I knew I would probably want to do a course. So, but I didn't want to do it all like right away. So I, it was a very slow process and I kind of just had the course in the back of my mind for a while and just waited to see like what was out there. Because I didn't, it's so saturated right now that I didn't want to do something that's already out there. I wanted to do something that the people that follow me and watch Mrs. Wheeler, what they would want. And so that's how I decided to do kind of what I did pull a lot from what I taught at the high school level. But you know, those girls were not all gonna become graphic designers. Very few of them probably were. Now they would use the skills for sure, but teaching it where someone's actually investing and paying and like they want to actually hone these skills and do better. It's like a little bit different of a student. It's like the student you want. So I started, I did hire actually a business coach to help me a little bit because writing the course curriculum and like recording the videos and like actually building that, that part was awesome and fun and a crap ton of work because I'm a little bit of a perfectionist and I wanted it to like, I just wanted it to feel like 110% so that when people invested, it wasn't just like, oh, I could have just like YouTubed all of this.

Yeah.

So, um, but the marketing part of it is really what was difficult and challenging for me. Not that it's just tedious, it's just a lot of like nurturing your email list and showing up on social media. And I'm like, there would be days where I'm like, I just want to design today. Can I just design something? But in the end, it was a huge learning experience, obviously. But the students that I had were great, and I got such great feedback from their experience that now getting ready to launch it a second time, it's like, I'm like expecting it to be so much harder, but I already have like the courses already created. So that part, I'm not, I'm not doing juggling all the hats. I'm just focusing on, you know, finding students, finding the need, and kind of adjusting who, who it's for and how I can change things. So, um, like they didn't really care for the Facebook group, so this time we're going to go to Slack. Things like that, that I'm like, okay, that's good feedback. Um, and then certain, um, modules in the course that are just, um, that were more valuable or not. And so that kind of helps me to know where I can give more bonus content and also parts that I'm like, I don't know a ton about this, but I know enough that it's important to share. So I'm going to be bringing in some like experts, if you will, to be like guests on some of these live sessions just because I'm like, I want the value to be there and we can't know everything. And I don't want my students or anyone else to think that they have to know all of this 100% right away. So asking for help and like getting help from other people, I think is something that we're all afraid to do, but it should be like very much more normalized than it is. So I want to be able to do that as well. So that's kind of another change that I'm going to make this year.

Yeah, it sounds—

I don't know if I answered your question or like 50 others.

You know what? Sometimes I get so like entranced and I'm like, yes, whatever you're saying is exactly what I needed to hear. So it was great. But I was actually going to ask, so say that there's somebody out there listening who's like obsessed with Canva. They feel like they could potentially be a designer in the making, would that be a perfect fit for them? Because you kind of break down like the how-tos and whys so that they can use Canva. Like let me know about that because I feel like basically in the freelance world, like you know Canva, even when you're not in the freelance world, but like everyone's like, "Oh, you use Canva? Okay, perfect." You know, it's like use it for everything. Yeah.

And it is a very hearty tool to have. And for a long time, Canva was like, like looked down upon in the graphic design world because it was kind of honestly like stealing our job a little bit because people could go on Canva for free and there's all these beautiful templates and all these ready-to-use things that you don't learn about copywriting. You don't learn about ownership because you're like, well, this stuff's all here for me to use. So now I can use anything online. So it just, it had like a negative connotation for a while, but then it started turning around. And I think that designers started realizing that we can't make designs that people don't know how to use. Like, I can't build a brand and then just pass it off to someone and expect them to find success and like conversion on that brand because they don't know how to use it. So we realized, well, if let's meet people where they're at. If they're in Canva, then we need to be making templates so they can use their brand in Canva on their templates. Or we need to, you know, get them ready for where they're at and what they have. So that's like my little Canva tangent. For anybody that's like embarrassed that they use Canva or feels like a certain way about it, like no, you don't have to feel those negative ways about Canva.

I felt kind of that too. Like when, I don't even remember, obviously not for my own sake because I'm not a designer and like didn't, you know, go to school and I didn't feel like I was even close to being an expert. So for me, like Canva was really great like you said, because it gives you templates and it just kind of like lays it all out for you. But I was wondering that, I'm like, hmm, I wonder how designers feel about this because, and I also think that there's a different level and like a different entrepreneur, like who wants an actual designer like to hire out and then someone who just wants like very simple systematized work. And I think that there is like a different type of entrepreneur. Have you found that or do you think that most people kind of lean towards one or the other?

I think, yeah, definitely. Like based off of inquiries I've received over the years and what I've talked to other designers in the community, what they've kind of, how they've grown. I think that there is like, uh, there's so many like different ways I could answer this, but there, there's a level like education to give people. So just always asking people why. So if someone says, oh, I just need I just need something simple. Like, that's a very common inquiry. Like, I think that you kind of have to dig and understand, are they asking for something simple because they think it's cheaper and they don't have a big budget? Are they asking for something simple because it actually aligns with their target audience? Are they asking for something simple for, you know, be for XYZ? It could be so many reasons. So understanding why they're asking for what they're asking, or is it because they know they need to use Canva? And so trying to, I think, the more, um, the more, the longer you've been designing, the more you know how to answer and like dig for these responses and questions and understand like, okay, so here's the real core problem, here's how I can help, or here's how I can't help. So if it is like, oh, you're just looking for a lower budget, that's why you want it simple, that's not within my budget, here's a designer that might be younger, newer, um, less expensive for whatever reasons, and like, you know, help them that way. Or it could be, oh, they want it simple because they think that what aligns with their brand, but actually they're ready to invest and they want to pay for a brand strategy and the whole kit and caboodle. So I forget, again, I'm like, well, I don't know what the question was.

No, that was a great answer. And I think that that translates over to anything, like when you are working with clients, because sometimes I will, and that's why my approach is like, I always pitch, like no matter what, even if it's within like a tiny little bit of what I offer, because sometimes I think clients don't even know necessarily sometimes what they truly want or what they could, how they could utilize what I do.

Absolutely. Yes.

I mean, even like, I'm trying to think, even me as a consumer, I like when I, you know, I'm outsourcing for help. I'll like hop on a call and I'll be like, I'm just reaching out to you because I like loved your picture and like your designs and I know, you know, like I just want to talk to you and maybe you could do what I'm, you know, looking for. Or like, you know, I really just need this, this, and this. And they're like, oh, okay. Like it's very, I think sometimes you're not really quite sure what you need until you like start talking and then having that other person who's maybe like you know, more experienced in that space that they can be like, actually, this sounds like more of what you need. So it's kind of— it's nice to be able to speak with someone who's— who knows what's up, who can like reel you in and like maybe guide you in the right way. Not tell you, but just be like, hey, like I've listened, you know, I've been in this space for 15 years now and like this is kind of what it sounds like. So I like that.

Good answer. Absolutely. Yeah, totally. And I think that what you said was spot on, that it can be for like any freelancer. And I think that as freelancers, we can either be the client or we, you know, or if we're looking to outsource or, you know, we're the freelancer, the entrepreneur or whatever. And so I think that part of it just ties in with like building community too. And that's like, I love one of the reasons that I think the purpose of your podcast is really cool because you never know when just talking to somebody, what you're going to learn for how you can grow, how your business can grow. So like if there's a photographer that that you really like on Instagram, like start making a connection with them and like eventually even hopping on a call because who knows, like maybe they've been looking to do something in your area and you're looking to brand for a photographer and now you've made this connection that you're not going to find that on their website. They're not going to find that on yours. So I feel like, like going beyond the websites and the Instagram feeds and like really connecting with people, it's something that's That's super important to me and I think, I feel like for you too, you just like find these connections that like they're not gonna fall in your lap and for anybody that has fallen in their lap, like that's not normal.

No, totally. Oh my gosh, you're like totally speaking my language right now because sometimes labels and like bios and like what I provide, I'm like, this isn't enough space, like not enough in that 3 little like sentences spaces of what I provide or like how I can help you. And so I'm trying, and maybe I don't know if I told you this, but I just started this beta round for a membership that I have like this dream of having. And I called it Connect and Collab because I offer PR for my clients, but naturally, I'm a connector. That's just like what I do. My podcast is like set up that way. My whole human being is set up that way. I met you 10 years ago and like I'm looking across something and like see, you know, that you were a frog expert and there's like someone looking to connect with a frog expert. I like remember that I connected with you once and I like reach out to you. And that's just like I was telling my husband the other day, I'm like, dude, I don't know how it works but I legit have like a directory in my brain. Like I just remember. Like I remember people and I remember like what they, you know, are looking for, what they're wanting to do. And so anyway, kind of back to reel it back in, this membership would just be to build community and have it be very like collaborative, a collective space where people are like networking, but it's like a safe space because I think sometimes like going on to LinkedIn and like having it be so professional, like this is my bio. I'm like, I feel like my bio needs to be 30 pages long because this little tiny thing does not summarize like who I am and what I can do for you. And sometimes trying to get creative with it just like stunts my creativity. I'm like, oh my god, what can I say that's cool about myself? Nothing. And then I just like go into, you know, this almost like imposter syndrome of being like, can I offer that? Like it starts like this weird, I don't know, and I don't know if you can relate to that, but I'm just I want to just show up and be like, listen, what can I do for you? Because pretty sure that any, like something on that list, I'll be able to help you with. So I want this membership to be very like almost like an Excel sheet, everyone's name, contact, what they're looking for, and they can utilize it and go back and forth, or they can reach out to me and be like, listen, Kris, like I don't have time to reach out and like do partners and collabs. Can you do that for me and like help me find these opportunities? So I don't know, it's something in the making. I'm in like beta round right now, but I feel like more we need to be more like collaborative and willing to like help each other instead of just being like, this is my platform. Like this is what I do. This is my platform and like go do your own thing. Like I think we should be way more like partnerships and helping each other. I don't know, still digging deep into that.

Yeah, I think there's a lot there and I think that so I think it was sometime last year I put out like a free download and it was how to build community when working alone. And some of the things on there were like, to me didn't feel very scary because I did them. But I realized that for a lot of people it is like just DMing somebody is outside their comfort zone. And so I tried to compile ways of like, like what can you say to them? Like I even put in a template like this this is what you can DM them. Because for me, I just have a love-hate relationship like we all do with like Instagram and the likes and the like surface level comments. They like just don't hit it for me.

Yeah.

You know, like if someone, if I comment on someone's artwork, like I want to comment on their artwork and not just say, that's really cute. And that's just me. Like I understand there's like algorithms and like all that stuff at play. So like, I'm not gonna bash that either. Um, but yeah, when I, I started doing— one of the things I started doing was I have designer chats where I talk to a different graphic designer every Tuesday on my Instagram Live. And I started realizing that a lot of the people that were coming on, it was the first time that they'd ever like shown their face on Instagram. It's the first time that they ever talked to someone else on Instagram. And so, um, It kind of became a way for a lot of designers to overcome that discomfort. And a lot—

and all—

every time they're like, that was so much fun, that wasn't bad at all, I don't know why I was so nervous, I don't know why I was so scared. And so I feel like it just takes that one, like, little jump to be like, oh, the water is pretty warm, it's fine. And so I feel like with your, um, with your group, I think that would be really a neat resource to have to help people that it just takes them a little bit longer to get comfortable. Like, I— but you don't want them to miss out, and you don't want other people to miss out on their qualities too, because just because they don't like to reach out on social media doesn't mean that they're not a good business person or not talented or creative. And so, um, yeah, I'm interested to hear how it goes.

Yeah, I like that you said that. Also, it— like, our day and age with technology, have you watched, um, episodes of Black Mirror.

All of them. Yeah, always frightening.

It's frightening. And I always think of the episode, remember, where you like are getting ranked and then she like has a full-on like breakdown at the end, just like, yep, yep. Um, so many times I like, I'm like, we're there. Like, I feel like we're totally there in certain ways, right? Like, even like our credit score determines whether or not we can like buy a home and/or buy a car, like really large purchases. But really, like, what does a credit score— I mean, really, I don't know. Anyway, I just feel like we're there a lot. And on social media, like, people attribute all of their, you know, like likes and followers to actually being true people within their community. And I'm like, I don't know about that. Like, I I want it to be way more like heart-centered. At least, you know, whatever I put out, want it to be more heart-centered than it is just to like put it out in hopes. So anyways, that's just my little tidbit.

Yeah, no, I agree with everything you said. And I had a point because I used to be my name, Jamie Wheeler Designs, and I recently about a month and a half ago moved over to a design studio-like format for my business and I'm now Jelly Creative Co. And so when I was just looking at my business and deciding like what to change and why I wanted to change, I just lost my train of thought. Like totally, it just totally went blank up there. You're talking about Black Mirror and the ring. Oh, it came back to me. I realized that I'm not getting clients from Instagram. Like, that's not where my clients come from. That doesn't mean I'm not getting clients, and it doesn't mean I don't like the clients I'm getting, but I, I just kind of had this realization of like, why am I spending so much time at a place where it's not making me income? Like, if it's giving me community, that's one thing, but then I need to like treat it as such. And so I feel like a lot of people— it took me a while to realize that, and I think for a lot of people they they don't ever realize it or maybe they don't care, but it's like, what are you, what are you doing here and why? Because it's, it's a tool at the end of the day. Like Instagram, Instagram is not cheering for us. Let's be honest. Like we have to do what we, what we want it to be. So I feel like, um, yeah, I like that view.

I work with a client who decided to digitally declutter and she like completely got rid of social media and she said the exact same thing because she said, I got so caught up in like followers and really just that aspect, right? Like she would get, you know, thousands of people that would like a photo. Were any of those people turning into clients? No. Were any of her followers like turning into clients? No. So she did the data analytics on the backend and her client, like she got maybe 2% of all of her business came from Instagram. 2%.

Wow.

And she was like, oh my gosh, exactly what you said. Why am I so focused in this area where really all of my clients are coming from like referrals and my podcast? So then why wouldn't I just podcast more, you know, and make more connections that way and like nurture my list that I already have? So it was very enlightening to me because I, and I like that you said, you know, Instagram for me is more of like, that's just my community. So I can go there and I can share all the things, but that's not necessarily maybe where I need to be sharing my like offer or what I do for my clients because do my, you know, 1,000 friends who are legitimately like my friends, people who know me, like do they really want to hear me talk about PR? Like maybe, maybe a couple of them, but they would would much rather have me like share stories of like my 2-year-old and the things he says. Oh my gosh, yesterday we were driving to school and he was talking about Halloween and he said that he wants to be naked for Halloween. And I said, "Oh, you, like who's naked?" And he said, "Gollum." And I was like, oh my gosh, my husband let him watch Lord of the Rings and now he's like obsessed with Gollum. That's like all he talks about. I feel like it's a love-hate relationship. Like, Gollum's freaky but also very intriguing.

I was gonna say, that could have gone like another way where he's like absolutely terrified, but he embraced it.

Yeah, and he like speaks in the voice, he'll just be like, "My precious!" And I'm like, "Yeah, so cute!" Gollum's freaky, let's not talk about that. But I feel like when I post real stuff, like, people are more inclined to like you know, interact than if I'm like, "Who wants to talk about press releases?" And everyone's like, "Oh God, no." So anyway, I think that you hit the nail on the head with like, okay, Instagram is my community. I'll treat it as such where I go and just, you know, be myself and then elsewhere I can talk about other things.

Yeah, totally. And I think that, you know, as long as people just know what it is, because I know designers that get a ton of inquiries and awesome clients from Instagram. Yeah. And that, and sure, wouldn't we love that? We would all love that. But that's not, that's just not the reality. And for me, part of why I wanted to move to like a studio, a design studio format for my company was I was like, I don't want to be on Instagram all the time. Like I enjoy showing up and like I always enjoy the response that I get, but I don't want it to necessarily be just me. So I have someone helping me now, one of my team members. She like does the stories and she helps out in the DMs and on the comments because it's like, I don't want to ignore people's comments, but I also don't want to be on there all day responding to your comments because that's not really bringing in the dough for me. So being able to have someone help and, and knowing, having people know that when they show up to my Instagram that like, yes, I'm there, but it's also like like it is more of a company. So like hopefully over time it will be seen as like me, like serious, but not serious. Cause that's kind of, that's kind of how we roll, you know, like not serious, serious business.

Yeah.

Wait, that's my new tagline for my Instagram profile. Quick, I'll change it.

Oh my gosh. I love this. And I'm so glad that I got to chat with you about this and to a fellow freelancer, but I want to talk about one more thing.

Sure.

Freelancing sometimes I think can get a bad rep and just like people are like, "Oh, a freelancer," which I think that sometimes people think freelancing means like you're just here for like a quick gig and then like out the door. Have you ever had a freelancing opportunity that was like long-lasting and that like how were you able to— did you ever come across that, I guess, you ever come across that rock in the road where people were like, oh, I don't know, like I'm really looking for more so like a long-term type. And you're like, even though I'm freelancing, I can be long-term. Did you ever come across something like that?

I think the ways that I came across it was when I was freelancing, but also teaching and having a full-time job. So I had, you know, I think I've always been pretty good at like laying down my boundaries. And so I would say like, "We can have a phone call, but it has to be after 3:00 PM because that's when I would be available." And I would say to them, "You'll be getting the work in the evenings to review the next morning. I'll always meet my deadlines. It might not fit into the 9:00 to 5:00 that you're looking for." So there were definitely times where I think that may have turned people off because it wasn't a matter of my quality, or quantity of work. It was a matter of the time I was able to give for it. And so I think I definitely did lose some clients, potential clients in that way, but the clients that I got were understanding of it. Um, and then for me, I— the like turning point came where clients got too comfortable with me being an evening worker that then it was sucking up that personal time. And so that's when I said I had to re- format my boundaries to be full-time and be like, okay, now I'm a business. And so, and that's the other thing that I think that the like mindset shift that I had where I was like, yes, I'm a freelancer, but I'm also a business. Like just because you're a freelancer doesn't mean that you should be treated as an employee because you're not. And so I think that's where a lot of the like discomfort and client issues and headaches come because It's like, I, I can be a contractor, I can be a freelancer, whatever you want to call it, but like, this is— you're paying me, and so I, I'm gonna have some— we're signing a contract, like, I'm gonna have some boundaries. And so, um, do you work—

do you work on retainer or do you work hourly?

I do flat rates. So, or, um, what's, what's the other word for it?

I've always called it flat rates, but, uh, yeah, just like, this is what I'm offering, this is what I cost.

Yeah, so I do like like, yeah, project-based, value-based pricing. So like, I did hourly when I was starting because that's just, I think that's the best way to do it. I'm not on retainer right now for anybody, but I definitely have, most of my clients are recurring clients, which is great because like we just have like the vibe going, we know how to work with each other. So I think that, I think like, I think that what I've noticed is people just appreciate honesty from the beginning. So like, If you want to be on retainer, if you want to have a long-term client, don't come out the gate being like, well, actually, I'm sorry. And, uh, you know, like if you come out with confidence being like, I absolutely can do this. Here's how it's going to work. And setting those boundaries, like from the beginning, I think that makes you more appealing because it's like, okay, because sometimes people don't want to make every decision. They don't want to be, you know, they want to make decisions on the work they're hiring you for, but they don't want to decide, oh, are we doing Zoom or Google Hangouts? Like, just, you know, like, just make, make those calls for them. And I think that you'll be seen as the expert because, again, just because you're a freelancer doesn't mean you're not an expert in what you do.

So I'm still running into, like, I haven't charged hourly in over a year, but I will still have people people be like, well, like, you know, I really want to know that like 10 hours a week is dedicated to this. And I was like, I work on deliverables. Like, as long as you give me what you need to be done, 100%, it will be done. So it's very like, I'm trying to find like a way to say that because I don't want to live on trading my time for money anymore. Like, I'm so over it. And I think that it fucks with people's brains. And like, I'm, I don't know how to like nicely say that, you know, without being like, it's, I always, you know, like, here's my package, this is what it is, like, this is what I offer. And so then when we're like on a call and they're like, okay, but can you devote, and then like, I can devote time to deliver, but like, it's like a very HR way to put it, like, I need these amount of hours.

So I feel like that hourly rates are great for people starting out. So I don't want to like say nobody should do them. I actually think people just starting out should because they don't know how long things take them.

Exactly.

But my favorite, I don't know, quote, I guess, saying is, "I can do this in 1 hour, but it took me 10 years to learn how to do it in 1 hour." And so I feel like it's a bad way to educate potential clients and educate people about pricing if you automatically do hourly rates all the time, especially if you're experienced and you deserve more than you're making. You're doing the community a disservice by charging lower and by charging hourly, low hourly rates, because now you're setting the precedent to people that, oh, branding should take 10 hours. Well, it's like, but that's everyone's process is different. How they spend their time is different. And so, and then it just makes people think that. And then for me, I'm at the point now in my career where if I say, if someone like charges, hires me for like a flyer, yeah, I could whip out a flyer in like 2 hours, an hour, like depending on how simple it is.

Yeah.

So that's going to not educate the client at all because they're going to think, oh, well, flyer takes an hour. And it's like, well, no. And then it makes me look bad because they're like, that only took you an hour? It's like, okay, well, put me in a room with a college student, someone that's 10 years ahead of me, someone 10 years behind, and, and then like, then you can see. But you can't do that for every client.

Well, really, like, especially in what I'm providing. So say that I'm re— a ton of research for PR because I do aligned pitching. So if I'm building you out an aligned list list, like right up front, that might take 10 hours, you know, to like put something together that with all of the correct contact info, everything, right? So if I'm providing that, like if you were to hire somebody who had never done it before, you can almost expect that you're going to get a list back with like missing contact information. If you're doing podcast stuff, because that's what I like to specialize in, like half of the shows probably don't even record anymore, you know, it was like the wrong name on it. And so I'm like, so you might have been paying less money, but now you're just double working. So like when you pay for somebody as like a package or a retainer, like you're paying for all the time, like you said, that they've spent in like perfecting this skill and making it as efficient as possible. And so like without saying that, I'm just like, I don't even know how to be like, okay, yeah, I don't know. Like it's very interesting to me that that's still even being talked about anymore. Like I'm trying to even think about like what is a job that is hourly? I mean, other than I guess if you're working a shift, like a shift work, but even probably on salary if you're working shift work. I don't know, it's very— maybe I'm tainted because I've been in this world for so long that I'm like— and I used to charge hourly like you said at first because I'm like, I don't know how long that's gonna take me, right? I don't know, you know, how long a blog, you know, a 1,500-word blog is gonna take me. Like, I don't, you know, and so it's— I definitely think that it's important to do, but then when you've moved away from it, I'm like, I don't I couldn't even tell. I'm like, I would have to like sit down and break that down. And I'm like, and I don't really want to like promise that I'm gonna work on this for 10 hours. I just want to promise to deliver it. So—

And that's another part of it too, is there's so much that goes into pricing that putting an hourly rate on it sometimes it's hard. Like for me, you know, I have like, I have team members that I pay for and they are hourly because they are like contracted out. And so we just have a Okay, let's— they know how long they take on stuff. So that's a little bit different because they're working like under the Jelly Creative Co name. But you know, like, so I have them to pay. I have— now that I'm a full-time business, I have like, you know, there's fees and insurance and subscriptions and software and all of that goes into it. And also like my time is valuable. So if I'm working with another client right now and you want to come on as a retainer, like, Your price is going to be increased because I don't have as much time to spend on it. And so there's just so many factors that go into pricing that doing hourly can sometimes just— it could get you in some sticky spots. So I also think that it's a potential red flag or like a workaround of like, do they respect you as the expert? And if they don't respect— oh my gosh, tongue twister. Respect you as the expert, then yeah, they're gonna try and swindle you of like, why can't you do hourly? Can't you do it our way? And sometimes you do find that like if it's a bigger company, sometimes they just have to do things a certain way, and so you like kind of have to work with them. I've had that happen where it's like, you don't want it this way, I don't want it this way, but to get paid we, we like have to, you know, do it a certain way. So yeah.

I'm glad that we had this talk. Yes, up here, but I'm like, we covered so much. It was so awesome to finally chat. I'm so—

I agree.

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