Hunting Misconceptions With John Stallone

I'm Kristjana Hillberg, and this is I Fucking Knew, a show where we break down life's unexplainable moments, the times when you knew something was off but couldn't put your finger on it. And when your gut feeling was just too loud to ignore. Each episode features a guest who shares how their intuition showed up for them. These are the moments that change our lives forever. Ready to strengthen your intuition? Yeah, I'm excited to talk today, but in particular looking forward to getting a little bit deeper into hunting in general because topics that folks are really passionate and opinionated about really evoke emotion and allow us to see others' perspectives. So this seems to be one of those, one of those topics. And knowing that we have a lot to go over today, I'm sure we could talk for several hours, but let's hit on a few things. And then of course, if anybody wants to, you know, learn more about you and how they can always reach out. To get us started, I wanted to just share a little bit about my personal experience with hunting, which is like zero. The only— like, I mean, I've never gone on a hunt myself, but it's in my blood. Like, I watched all of the men in my life growing up go on multiple hunts during the year, come home, stock family freezers. One of my uncles has an entire family room dedicated to mounts: deer, elk, mountain lion, and it was just the normal. But I want to take a little pause here because that kind of leads into the broader conversation that we're going to have. Because when I say my normal or the normal, it's— I mean, we all have that, right? Like, what we saw and experienced as kids shaped us and our views. We're all adults now and have the ability to change our mindset and shift our views, but that means taking accountability and educating ourselves on all perspectives. I don't think it does us much good to just learn one way. So with all that, my normal included seeing and believing that hunting is a way of life and a way to feed your family and friends, and it's ritualistic, it's bonding, it's spiritual. And for others, hunting means something different. So I want us to kind of go through 3 of the big misconceptions about hunting, and I want you to share your experience and views and all of that. And, you know, I think some big organizations like PETA kind of contribute to these misconceptions and speak it very loudly. And I wanted to read something that they— something that they say about hunting. They say it's a violent form of entertainment that almost no one needs for survival. Hunting disrupts migration and hibernation, tears families apart, and causes animals immense suffering. So that loops us right into one of the biggest misconceptions, which, which is humans don't need to hunt anymore. What do you have to say about that, or what do you think about that?

That is definitely something that is, uh, is thrown around a lot. It's not just PETA, it's pretty much all the anti-hunting organizations talk about that. You know, the, the idea that of humans not hunting is actually a very, very new experiment in human history. It's just a, it's like a blip in time, the last 50 to 100 years, really.

Yeah.

You know, so if you take that into consideration and saying that we no longer need to hunt I mean, I guess there's some truth to that because there's, you know, we don't— I personally, I mean, there's other people that they need, physically need to go hunting to put food on the table. I would say the majority of people who hunt, it's not a necessity. It's like you do not need to physically go out and procure your own meat you can go to the grocery store, but if you want to know where your meat comes from, if you want, you know, if you're following the organic lifestyle, if you want to be part of the system, you know, part of procuring your own meat, not be so disconnected from— so many people are so disconnected from, oh, you know, why can't you just go be like a normal pro? I hear it all the time. Why can't you just be like a normal person, go to this store and get your own meat. Well, that was a life that somebody else killed for you to eat, for you to consume. So like, the idea that it's not okay for a person to go out and procure their own meat, their own protein, is, is like absurd. Like, if— yeah, you know, there's a, there's a study that, just came out that says that 26% of Americans are not okay with you hunting for meat. And that's a really, like, a really weird number for me because in the United States— actually worldwide, I believe— there's 4% that identify as vegetarian and 1% as vegan. So in my head, only 5% should be, should have a moral soapbox to stand on to say, we're not happy with you going out to procure your own meat. So where does the other 21% come from? And to me, that's like, that's the same person that's going to take a selfie with their burger or they're going to take a video of or a picture of their steak dinner that they're having at some restaurant and turn around and say, oh, I don't want you to go hunting for your own meat, but you're eating— you're still eating meat. Like, so the hypocrisy behind that is just like ridiculous, you know?

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that sometimes we as humans take stances on things that kind of like, to my point earlier, it's like what was told to you for decades of your life, right? And you kind of just stay there and you don't really think about the whole picture or everything that you're saying exactly. You just say it and you don't really know, you know, all that it encompasses. So I feel like that statement is one of those, right? And another big misconception is that hunters hate animals, which is actually the opposite, right?

Yeah, hunters have been, have been and are the biggest stewards of wildlife by far than any other user group. By far. If you talk about conservation and what conservation means, it's actually, if you look at the North American model of conservation, it's 100% funded It's a user pay system. It's 100% funded through the efforts of hunters and anglers. And there's so many people out there that don't— they don't know that even in the hunting industry, they don't know that that's the reality of it. They don't know that the reason they can go see animals on the landscape, the reason why they have access to public— a lot of the public lands access is due to the efforts of hunters and anglers. You are 100% correct that hunters are lovers of wildlife, really. They're the number one— by far the number one stewards of wildlife and conservation. And actually, the word conservation came about from hunting. It was wanting to conserve what we have and use it in a way that there was sustainability. And it's not many people understand that it's a user pay system and that much, if not almost all of the funding that comes for conservation through wildlife agencies and through Pittman Robertson and all these other donations and so on and so forth. Comes from hunters. Like, and they don't know that the reason why they can go to wild places and, and, and visit and hike and public access and mountain bike and all these things, a lot of that is made through and made available through hunting. So to say that we are evil and, and don't love— we hate animals and we just want to, you know, kill things, it's like, you know, straight up bloodlust thing. It's crazy. And unless you're a hunter or unless you really closely know a hunter, it's hard. It's hard for people to understand that because it's like you see a guy like me or you see, we'll take photos for instance. You'll see a grip and grin photo. It's very common practice of a hunter holding whatever animal. Smiling, whatever. And that can be construed in many different ways. You know, like you can look at that and go, oh, this guy's just super happy. He's got a rack and yada, yada, yada. But 9 times out of 10, the reason why he's— he or she is smiling is because of the culmination of things that went into it, the preparation, the, the, you know, studying, the scouting, the X amount of days put into the actual pursuit of. And it's just a joy. It's like a— it's a really hard thing. I actually wrote an article called The Hunter's Paradox, um, that puts a lot of that into perspective. It's, it's hard for people to understand how could you love something and simultaneously love something and then also want to kill it to eat it. It's, it's very difficult. Not most hunters can't wrap their heads around it, but we, we have this desire to want to preserve and to propagate a species, and we don't have— actually, Stephen Ranallo put this really great. He was talking to a vegan one time some years ago in one of his videos. And it's— the anti-hunter has a desire to preserve the animal. The one animal has a desire, wants to see that one deer live. And hunters want to see the whole species live. So they understand that the death of one what that means for the entire herd, whether that's a population control, whether that's strictly from funding standpoint to develop habitat, all these different things that could be— without getting into a biology lesson, you know, those, those are the reasons why hunters, like, we don't just go for the thrill of the kill. I, I, and if you've read that article, if you read that article that I put out It— there is a little— like, you'd be lying to yourself if there wasn't a sense of adrenaline or a sense of excitement for that part. But it's literally the least important part. Yeah. It's like— and if anything, it signifies the end of all the other things going on, like, with the lead-up to it.

Right.

It's a glimpse in time that's not— it doesn't capture what the hunt is.

I mean, it kind of reminds me too of like what you said. I mean, that picture is more about everything else that happened before that, right? Like everything that went into it. And sometimes, I mean, the, the, the tens of— not, I mean, not hundreds, maybe, maybe people hike hundreds of miles, but lots of miles and lots of of waiting and prepping and preparing for that. And so before our call, like I mentioned earlier, I mean, all of my family has hunted. So I reached out to a few family members and was just like, hey, I just want to hear like what you have to say about it. Like, what does it actually— what does it mean to you? And some of them, I mean, one of my cousins, like he owns a guiding service. That's what he does for a living. It's been a part of his life, his entire life. And one of my closest friends, You know, he's been hunting kind of like you since he was 5. Like, as soon as he could hike, his dad was taking him out. He got his first tag when he was 10, but he has literally been on the mountain and like packing things up since he was little. And he kind of said the same thing is that it's this sense of like, really everybody, if I was to, you know, summarize what everybody said about it, it was like this feeling of being in nature, like spirituality, things that some humans will never experience, like, let alone see. But yeah, that, that feeling of pride, that feeling of withholding tradition, and not just tradition within a family, but tradition within the mountain men and adventures of the Old West, something that has been a part of human nature for hundreds and thousands of years. And so I like, I like that you you know, said that, that yeah, sure, it's, it's a picture, but it's, it's so much more. There's so much more behind it.

It is. And it really comes down to, to education. And we were— we kind of touched on it a little bit before. It's like anti-hunting is always pumping out propaganda, and they're very— they're much better at it than, than hunting— the hunting community is. And, um, they— you only have, especially in today's day and age, you only have— you know how things work, you know, you only have a few seconds to, to, uh, grab somebody's opinion on something or to, to sway their opinion on something. And, you know, on the hunting side, we're, you know, we're constantly doing things within our community, like putting out a picture or whatever, that is acceptable within our community. And we never think about the person from the outside looking in. And with those things that we put out, there's no way to convey all that, you know, transpired to go into that moment. And it's very hard with a picture to like, talk about the science, talk about, um, conservation, talk about ecology and funding and all these things that hunters take for granted. These, like, people who don't hunt, the non-hunting public, don't understand. And it— so if they get hit with something like, oh, like for instance right now in Colorado They're trying to pose this mountain lion hunting and bobcat hunting ban, and they're calling it a trophy hunting ban. Uh, they also have lynx in there, which is federally protected. It's not even something that we hunt, but it's, it's in there. They, they're going around and getting on the news and they're saying, oh, that hunt, uh, lion meat is inedible. Well, that's categorically false. Not only is it edible, it's actually very sought after from people who are in the know. It's, it's very much very pork-like, very, uh, mild white meat, and people love it. And it's been, you know, utilized as a protein for, you know, millennia. So that's number one. They say that mountain lion are like going extinct, and if we continue to hunt them they're going to be an endangered species. Well, specifically in Colorado— this is true countrywide, but specifically in Colorado— when they started hunting them 50 years ago and considered them a big game species, there was like 50 to 100 lions or something like 200 lions in the state, and now there's close to 5,000. So there, that, that's not a true statement. Uh, they talk about, you know, chronic wasting disease and how, you know, you're saving elk and deer and, and minimizing this chronic wasting disease by, you know, uh, letting lions hunt because they target, they target the weak and the sick. There's no evidence. Do they, do they kill weak and sick? But there's no scientific— as a matter of fact, there's several studies that contradict that statement. And, you know, you just— this constant, like, grab for people's ideals, really. Like, they're trying to, to capture your ideals and give you this false narrative that, you know, from the outside looking in, if you don't dive into it, it seems very rational, like seems very real. And I, you know, you see this a lot in mainstream politics, obviously all the time, you know, you know, this person does this or this person does that. And then if you really looked into it, it's just taken out of context or it's taken out, you know, whatever. I actually got a really good, I got a good, good story, good example that kind of goes along with what I'm talking about. It's so important for us to have this like education component because there is that lack of understanding and lack of knowledge. And if it's like we said earlier, if you've never been exposed to the reason you don't— even though you don't hunt, you've been exposed to hunting in a positive manner. We, uh, when we were in Oregon— excuse me, when we were in Utah, we were doing an expo back in February And every time we got into an Uber, we engaged with the driver. We talked with them, you know, let them know what's going on. And they always had questions. They always wanted to know what was going on. But not a single one of them knew that, you know, we, we have to obtain a tag. To go hunting. There's licensing and there's hunt ed. Like, they basically thought you could go buy a rifle at Walmart, run out to the field, shoot whatever the hell you want. Okay, so that— there was that, you know, lack of understanding. They also thought that if, if you had a license, it signified— so our tag or a license signified a dead animal. They don't know that like, for instance, in Colorado, that there's only a 9% success rate on elk hunting, right? So let me, let me frame it to you this way. So if I said, if you went to Whole Foods right now, you got to pay me $700, and you have a 9% chance of coming out of there with me with food. Is that something you would do? You know, like, that's, that's basically what's going on here. You're, you're giving somebody— you're charging somebody for the opportunity to possibly harvest an animal, right? And that's a big— like, people don't under— they can't wrap their head around that, basically. And that's what it costs. It costs about $700 for elk tag. It's not like, hey, $25, let me run out the field, we go throw one in the back of my pickup truck. And, you know, and so all these like little things that hunters take for— we take this stuff for granted. We expect that everybody knows this stuff.

Yeah.

The non-hunting public doesn't understand that stuff. And because they don't understand that stuff, It's on us to start teaching them that, teaching them that so that they have a better grasp of what's going on. We need to—

That's so wild to me because I actually, you sharing this story reminded me, I was telling someone, I met someone when I was visiting New York City and I said, hey, let's go to the archery range. And we were kind of talking back and forth and I said something like, oh yeah, once I put in 2 Shoot javelina. And I got drawn, and it was just like, you know, and he was like, what are you saying? Like, I don't understand what that means. And I was like, oh, okay. And so yeah, you saying this reminds me that, yeah, it's just not, uh, I guess. And really, why would it be? Like, why would people understand or know that unless it's been like an experience? Same with me. Why would I understand something I've never been a part of? But that's the whole point, is like learning and choosing to learn more about it, educate yourself about it so that you're not just making, you know, an uneducated guess on why you would vote. Like, let's go back to Colorado. Like, why would you choose to, you know, vote yes to ban lion hunting if you have no clue how it's going to affect you, right? You know, personally, even as a non-hunter.

Sure, sure. Yeah, so I mean, we'll keep using Colorado because it's a very relevant issue going on there right now. So 4 years ago, they had another ballot box biology— is what we like to call these things, or what it's— what they are called, not just what we like to call them. And ballot box biology is when the general public is voting on something that really should be handled by the professionals, the people conducting the science, the biologists, the, you know, game managers, uh, so on and so forth. And let me explain that a little bit further. Like, if you're a brain surgeon, okay, and I went— instead of coming to you and asking you your, uh, you know, you're part of a board or whatever, your opinion on a procedure in brain surgery. And I went to the local butcher, or I went to the mechanic, or I went to the soccer mom, and I said, hey, um, what is your opinion on lobotomy, whatever? I don't know anything about brain surgery, but and I use their opinion to construct, you know, legislation or policy that affects the way you do your job. We don't do that. We don't go, we don't go ask the general public about, you know, stuff that involves medical or engineering or because these require a a certain level of understanding of that subject matter, right?

Right.

So why in this situation are we asking the general public to, you know, direct the policy going to affect biology and ecology and wildlife management? Like, it's ridiculous. So 4 years ago they had one of these and they voted to introduce wolves into, into Colorado, reintroduction. Um, and it's been a shit show, really. Like, since the, the policy only lost by— it was like a 1% differential between yay and nay. Um, and we, we can get into that too, but since, since that passed 4 years ago, they just now this past year finally introduced the first set of wolves. Um, those wolves are one captured wolves from other states problematic, so they're already problem wolves causing problems somewhere else, captured and then relocated to Colorado. Those are the wolves that, like, they're asking for wolves from other states. And the only person, the only state that gave up wolves, I believe, is Oregon or Washington. I can't remember exactly. And those were problematic there. And they just said, okay, cool. We're going to give you our problem cats. You know, the idea that hunters hate wildlife, you know, it's not that hunters don't want to see wolves on the landscape. We just know the, the, for lack of better terminology, the shitstorm that it's going to cause. You know, there's perpetual lawsuits across the United States when it comes to wolves, and there's, um, there's problems with management that the, the CPW, which is the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, their hands are tied on how they can do things because it was shaped into law and not done through normal, you know, biological sound science principles. It was literally like, we want to see wolves on, on the landscape, let's put them on the landscape. And now they just have constant, constant problems, and there's going to be lawsuits, there's gonna be tons of loss of money for Colorado. Plus, right seeing deprivation all over the state. Um, it's just a handful of wolves. It's not even that many wolves. Just wait till they get to their objective. There's like, you know, people are losing cattle and, and, uh, and livestock and all kinds of, uh, domesticated animals are having problems with the dogs and cats and all this other stuff. And it's just like a constant, you know, thing that's not going to go away. And it came about because the public who wasn't, you know, uh, fit. I don't want to say fit, that sounds bad, but they weren't— it wasn't the right— there weren't the right people to direct what this policy should be.

Yeah, no, totally. What can you answer, like, what would an organization like CATS in Colorado, like, what do they have to benefit by spreading all of this information, really misinformation? Like, what— why does— how does it benefit them?

Well, some of them are captured in their, you know, about— by their ideals, and they just want to see, you know, the protection thereof of mountain lions and bobcats. But the ugly truth is that it's a business. Whether they're nonprofit or not, it's a business. And the nonprofit businesses in anti-hunting, especially more so than anything, so they have this like sue and settle business model. And because of a law, and I'm trying to remember what it's what it stands— what it's called. I believe it's called the Equal Justice, um, might be the Equal Justice Act. I can't remember. I don't know why I can't remember the name of it, but basically the law allows them to use taxpayers' money to sue the government for for, in this case, for animals who can't stick up for themselves. And it's just this constant, like, profit-generating machine. So like, every time they bring about a lawsuit, it means money for them. And then the other side of it is they tug on the heartstrings of people who don't have time to really dive into stuff, to get them to donate. And then also they capture them within their ideals with like, with that messaging and stuff that we talked about earlier. They put, they put out propaganda that sounds reasonable so people don't look past it and automatically they jump on board with it. Um, and it's just a dirty, dirty, dirty business. It's, it's terrible.

Um, yeah, I'm like, what type of, what type of people can feel good about this? You know, like, I just— it makes zero sense to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, if you look, if you really look and you follow the money, a lot of these things um, it's, it's pretty crazy. It's, it's not a, um, I don't know, I wouldn't want to be there, let's put it that way. You know, it's like you're, you're, you're preying on people that, like I said, are really not going to take the time to dive into it. And then once once they do decide they want to dive into it, they've already been captured with this thought process. So the stuff that they're reading and the stuff that they're listening to is all propagated from anti-hunting. So they further fall down, and that's— and they almost become fanatical.

Yeah.

Um, it, it's crazy because you don't ever see— you never see hunters, uh, trolling social media or showing up and rallying. And, and, and, but you see it from the other side. You see anti-hunters, uh, picking on, on, uh, you know, individual hunters on social media and calling them nasty names and, and violent slurs and all this stuff. And then you see them showing up and and having these, uh, you know, like rallies and so on and so forth. And it's very— it's so bonkers to me that a group that is so hell-bent on preserving a life of an animal has such disregard for the life of humans. Yeah, it's just—

it can have such a sway, like, can have such a loud voice on a topic that, yeah, I mean, it's just all— it's just like wild to me. Like, I'm like, they have such a loud, powerful voice to sway people, like you said, who don't have time or energy or even the understanding that they— that there is another side, um, to look into. And so, yeah, it's just bullshit. Um, but this is why, right? This is why you guys have Howl, and it's all about the education standpoint. It's about continuing to talk about it, continuing to educate, you know, in all the places that you can. Because even though I am a non-hunter right now, like, I, I have a completely different idea about it. And so it's, it's like, how do you get to people who, you know, don't even necessarily think about it, like, hardly ever, you know? But they're the ones who— the power, you know, is in their hands for voting, like we talked about earlier. But, um, I know we're kind of coming up on time, so let's keep moving. But another misconception is that hunters have an unfair advantage. What do you— do you have anything to say about that or like kind of lean into that a little bit?

Well, I mean, we just talked about it. 9% of elk tags get filled. So I don't, I don't know if the statistics really, you know, support that claim. Um, you know, as a whole, I think— and I don't— it's been a while since I looked at the number, but I think 25% as a whole— we're talking rifle and, and archery— um, actually 25% of hunters that take the field to harvest an animal, 25% of them fill their tags. So if we got an unfair advantage, then we're not utilizing it, you know, I don't, I don't think that that's— there's a lot of laws written into state wildlife rules and regulations. That follow a fair, what we call fair chase model. And fair chase is something that any hunter who actually calls themselves a hunter wants that as a component. Let me give you an example, okay? A couple years ago, I came up, I was elk hunting. I came up and I heard a commotion ahead of me. I came— I was coming up to a fence line, uh, and I say a fence line, just a, you know, 3-strand cattle fence, um, barbed wire, something that a deer or elk normally have zero problems with. They go go under it or jump over it without a problem. You know, those things are designed to keep cattle who don't jump and too large to go under. So I was coming up to it and I realized that there was an elk stuck. Actually, you know what? Very same situation, but this is even more important because that was a calf. Okay, and I wasn't hunting calf elk. Um, we don't hunt calf elk. We, we typically hunt, uh, either mature bulls or mature cows. Not— I shouldn't say typically, that is the law. You, you know, there is laws in place to prevent you from harvesting. So actually, several years ago, I was in South Dakota and I was hunting pronghorn antelope. And a giant buck, one that I actually tried to stalk and harvest with my bow and arrow, had his horns stuck in a fence. And I could have easily walked up on him and shot him. Yeah, easily. And I would have had my antelope. I could have taken pictures. Nobody would have known the difference. But I didn't. I actually almost hurt myself, but I helped that animal escape because the idea of fair chase is you want the animal to have as many advantages as possible. Part of the pursuit, you know, if you're taking it from the sporting mentality. Let's take away the heritage. Let's take away the food aspect. Let's take away the, uh, the connection with nature and all that stuff. And you're taking it straight down to the, to the sporting part of it. It's not that we think it's a sport, like, hey, we're gonna go, uh, play football, okay, because that's a sport. It's sporting. It's, it's allowing the animal to be on a higher or, or, or better playing field than you are. And that is a huge component for the vast majority— 98 to 99% of hunters faced with that situation would do the same thing that I did. They'd go there and cut the fence, or they'd figure out how to get that animal out and let it go on its way. If you look on YouTube, hunters saving deer, hunters, um, you know, releasing elk or whatever, you'll see constant examples of what I just talked about. So, you know, that picture that we're painted in, that we just want to pull a trigger, we just want to see blood, we just want to, you know, kill things. If that was the case, then why do these things happen?

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, again, I think that it's what we've touched on a couple different times, is that most people base their beliefs off of an experience they've had or a thought that they've had. And so maybe, you know, some people heard a, heard a bad story or saw you know, one headline about, about it, you know, about a hunter not doing that. And it happened, it happens, you know, hardly ever, but one time, you know. And so I think that sometimes that plays.

Yeah, there is bad seeds in every aspect of life. There's always going to be, in every niche, there's going to be that bad apple, that bad seed, whatever. Like, we were just faced with that actually earlier this year where there was a guy who ran over a wolf in Wyoming, and which is actually— was legal. The, the method of— there was no defined method of take. He could have ran it over and dispatched that wolf in that area, and it would have been perfectly legal. But to make matters worse, he did that. He paraded the wolf in a public area and was taking pictures with it and kissing it and taped its mouth, like all kinds of crap. The hunting community was the first to come out and condemn the actions of this person. We were like, this is hard. Like, how does this happen? And we are helping shape policy in that state right now, coming from the hunters and sportsmen, to eliminate that happening again. And that little bit, that little tidbit, the reason why I bring it up, it was picked up by the anti-hunting world, and now that guy became a poster child. Oh yeah, of what hunting is. Right. And we're like, see, all— see, you— this is why we need to stop mountain lion hunting, because we got to protect them from guys like this, you know. And it's, it's just sad. I mean, because— and I don't know the exact numbers, but anecdotally, I mean, we're talking a few hundred people that are probably that way. In, in, you know, 15, 16 million hunters in the United States, right? So, you know, like I said, we could take that and there's bad cops, you know, there's bad police officers out there, but right, does that mean all police officers are bad? No, it's—

yeah, and I mean, unfortunately, that is what happens, right? Is that especially, you know, whenever there is some sort of incident like that where it's maybe one in thousands and thousands, that's what seems to be, you know, get the, get the most attention and the loudest voice. And so yeah, it is unfortunate. And so I do love, you know, the work that you guys are doing at HOWL and yeah, just really educating on and helping spin that, spin that narrative. But before we, before we hop, you know, the theme of my show is sharing a story, and this can be hunting, it can be in your personal life, but just sharing something where you just fucking knew something, whether it was like a gut instinct, a feeling, something that you would, you know, something that you ignored and then something happened later and you were like, yep, I knew that that would happen, I should have listened. Do you have something like that, um, personally?

Or I have stuff like that almost on a daily basis. Yeah, I think so. What do you want to show this morning? But I mean, so many different ones come to mind, but one that's not hunting related that sticks out the most to me is my father-in-law some years ago, and he's since passed, but I think I was maybe newly married. I think it was a year, the first year of my marriage. And him and I were great friends before. That's actually how I met my wife. I met my wife through him. We were great friends and through hunting. He's one of my— was one of my closest hunting buddies leading up to before he was my father-in-law. He invited me to dinner one night and he was talking to me and telling me about a restaurant venture that he wanted to to do and he, you know, he wanted me to invest in it and so on and so forth and be a part of it. I grew up my earlier life and in another life I was very much in the restaurant industry and had a lot of experience and I told him and it's like coming even coming from him, there's this guy that I respected and loved and he was successful businessman. I just knew that a shitstorm was happening, was, was coming. And this was in like 2006, I believe, when— right when the crash— right before the crash happened. And I could feel the looming, the looming crash. And it was just like something I knew, like, I needed to avoid. And I tried my hardest to get him to avoid and he didn't want to hear it. So I don't know if that's a good enough example for you or not, but that was definitely one of the things that stuck with me. Like, I thank God all the time because I would be in a very different spot right now in my life had I taken that leap to do that.

Yeah, no, I love that. That's a perfect example. And I mean, I think we can all We all have instances like that where we had a feeling, we listened, and we were like, oh shit, you know, at the end, like, so glad that we listened to that. But then on the other hand, we also have stories where we have a gut feeling or just like a, you know, this, this instinct that we're like, yeah, you just kind of ignore it. And then something happens and you're like, well, shit, you know. So I think that that's something— that's one reason why I started the podcast so many years ago is that We all have stories and we all come from different backgrounds and different experiences. But, you know, that's one thing that, that can bond us are those like emotions that we feel. And maybe, you know, maybe I haven't been in your shoes, but I have felt those same feelings in a different, you know, in a different scenario. And so I think that, you know, our talk today about hunting is like, you know, some people have no idea, don't even— probably don't even think about it. Um, and so I think that the things that you shared today are really important, and I'm just— I'm glad that you took the time to give us a little bit of education.

I think a really good way to— if somebody listening in on this has to, or wants to, I should say,, get a better understanding. I, I really feel like that, that article that I wrote, it's called the, uh, the Hunter's Paradox.

Is it just on the blog?

It's on my blog. Yeah, it's on joshstallone.me.

Um, cool.

Yeah, but even if you did a Google search of John Stallone and the Hunter's Paradox, it should pop right up.