Unreported Sexual Assault

I'm Kristjana Hillberg, ex-Mormon and mom of 3, and this is I Fucking Knew, a show where we break down life's unexplainable moments, the times when you know something's off but you can't put a finger on it, or you're drawn to a path that feels right for you despite others' opinions, and when your gut feeling was just too loud to ignore. Each episode features a guest who shares how their intuition showed up for them, everything from vivid dreams that a partner was cheating to meeting someone and instantly know and being called to just do something else. These are the moments that change our lives Forever. Ready to strengthen your intuition?

So I wrote the book with this, um, it's like kind of like a program that gets you started and then they hand you off to a publishing house. So really interesting. And it's a, it's a small publishing house, like you've probably never heard of it, but so then the publishing house kind of takes over and they do like weekly sessions with all their authors that are publishing to help keep you on track, and then they hook you up with an editor. It's kind of—

wow—

like a hybrid model. I'm sure you've had friends who have self-published books. I feel like everyone's doing it these days. Yeah, so it's like a hybrid, like you— it's not self-publishing, but you do pre-sell your book in order to fund like the basically the printing costs and like your editor and your cover designer and all of that. So yeah, Kristjana Hillberg. Interesting.

Okay, so what has that process been like? I mean, and what, like, what stage are you at in that entire process?

So it's been quite the process, mostly because, as you know, the topic, like, you know, when it came time to like I always wanted to write a book, and when the person who runs the program, who's a professor at Georgetown, when he runs like the first part of the program where you decide on your topic and everything, and you know, he was talking to me about different topics, and I knew in my gut, I was like, if I have an opportunity to write a book that, you know, the opportunity kind of like came to me like randomly, I didn't really like seek it out, so I was like, if I'm gonna, you know, if I have this opportunity, like I have to write about this topic that I care so much about. I mean, yeah, like, it happened to me, and then I just had it happen to so many friends. And, um, I've always had this idea about how we can improve the system and, and like end the problem, which is obviously dreaming big. So he was like, are you sure you want to write about that? Like, it's not a very happy topic. And I think just the nature of that, you know, at first I wasn't going to put my story in the book, and then I did. And so it was just a longer process than it was for other people. It took me like a year to write the book, and they modeled the program to have it only take you 4 months. So they were constantly annoyed at me, like, can you please just get it together? And then now it comes out at the end of April.

Wow. Okay. So all of the women featured in the book, are these all women that you have relationships with, like you're like close with, they're friends, or did they kind of just come to you? Like, tell me more about that.

It's a, it's a real mix because as you can imagine, when you're looking for people who have been sexually assaulted or raped and didn't report, it's really hard to know where to start because their stories aren't out there for a reason. They didn't report. So, you know, it's just, I didn't know where to start. And so I started on my Instagram stories, which was— I did get some pushback. I mean, I didn't put like a trigger warning or anything, which I was saying to someone the other day that this book has really evolved at the same time as my skills as a journalist have evolved. Yeah, I studied journalism in college as a minor, and I did it in high school, but you know, I've never done it really professionally. So those two things are happening at the same time. So I made an Instagram story that said, you know, have you experienced sexual violence? Yes or no, and then if yes, did you report? And all the people who said that they had and didn't report, I sent very like individually crafted messages, which took a long time, and asked them if they'd be interested in talking for the book. So last March, like a year and a bit ago, was spent on the phone with I think about 10 different women who I knew to varying degrees. You know, because some of them I just— they followed me on Instagram or I followed them, and then others were people that I had more of a close relationship with. But none of my actual best friends made it in because even though I do have like a couple best friends who this has happened to, I don't know, I felt there is a conflict of interest right there. So it's more like acquaintances. And then when I was getting ready to finish the book I wanted— my editor and I realized that we needed one more story. We were looking for another woman, and I put out a random blurb on this website, Help a Reporter. And I got— I mean, I wasn't expecting anything. And for about like a month, the request didn't get approved, probably because it was really sensitive in nature. So I figured it would never get approved. And in that month, my editor said to me, you know, Kaylie, I haven't shared this with you yet, but I have a story. And so one of the stories in the book is now my editor's story. Yeah. And then when I got that request, got approved, I ended up getting like 15 more people. So I don't know if I need to write a sequel or do a podcast or what with all these stories. Everyone has it. Everyone has a story.

Oh my gosh, so many people have a story. And that's why I had created this platform in the first place, was because I wanted people to have a safe space to share any story. I mean, whether it was abuse or divorce or like just anything that they had been through that they wanted to talk about, because I think so often it's either like taboo to talk about it or it's not a happy topic, right? Like this kind of how you got that too, like, are you sure? Like this isn't really a topic that like brings a lot of joy and happiness, but I truly think that through sharing our stories is how it's like therapeutic for us and for everybody that's listening. There's always somebody on the other end who can relate. When you were writing this, how was the energy? Because I can only imagine, like when I am podcasting or telling somebody's story or working with somebody and they tell me a story that is heavy, it's hard for me to not take it on and like feel that. And so is that something that you had to learn, or was that something that you just kind of like embodied and took it on to help with writing? Like, what was that like?

That's a great question. Well, yeah, I mean, basically I, I spoke to these women on the phone and that was really— I mean, it was interesting. It's literally exactly the type of day it is today. It was cold. It was rainy, it was the first month of COVID That's when I was speaking to these women on the phone. And so the vibe kind of matched the energy of the stories, honestly. And, you know, the whole world was shut down then. So even if some of these women weren't on the East Coast, but like even in California, the vibe was very weird. And so I think, you know, what was beneficial is I found that when I spoke to the women, I always started by saying my story and saying, you know, what happened to me and, and just explaining why I'm so passionate about solving this. And then I also said to them, which has carried through and been true, that like I don't really need to dwell on exactly what happened. Like, I actually don't care about the minute or the few minutes where someone was violated. I mean, I care because of how it affected them after, that it is a factor of the story, but I just feel like a lot of media coverage has been in the past on that, so those salacious details. And to me, I mean, we shouldn't be focusing on those at all, you know? Like, I, I think that it happened. We believe the survivor. And my interest was more, why didn't you report? What, what made you feel like you couldn't report? And, you know, how did your life— how was your life benefited by not reporting. Because in my opinion, if we created a system that delivered all the same benefits of not reporting but still enabled someone to report, then people would. And then if law enforcement knew about these perpetrators, then they could stop them. And a crazy statistic that really is staggering to me is that on average, if someone commits rape, will do it 5 more times. Holy shit. I know, I know. Wow.

So as you were interviewing these women, were a lot of the reasons like the same as to why they didn't report, or was it kind of across the board?

Yeah, it's so funny because I went in with like, you know, before I even started interviewing people, I had this list, these list of reasons that I thought people would fit into, and As I did the interviews, I was trying to fit them into, oh, this person didn't report for this reason or whatever, whatever. When I actually started talking to them, what I found was that, you know, no one fits in a box. It's not neat. Not— I call it unreporting or like not reporting is not neat. Usually everyone's reasons intersect with each other. And the real reason that people don't report is very complex. And it's a combination of all these different reasons. But that being said, like, the core reasons were the same. And I think basically it boils down to not reporting because of safety and because of right after you're sexually assaulted or raped, you know, your control is taken from you in a very intimate way when that happens. And then to go and report to any type of law enforcement or governing body of your school or anything is to give up control again, a second time, in the day after. And the best, one of the best interviews I had was with a female police detective who developed this whole system that solves that problem. And she developed this program that gives control back to the person who this just happened to. It allows for anonymous reports and I mean, I think at the end of my conversations with these women, I would often ask them, you know, what would be your ideal system? And when you ask someone that, kind of putting them on the spot, a lot of times they weren't really sure. So I would offer up this program, it's called You Have Options. I would offer that up as an example, and most of them would be like, yes, I would love to anonymously report, you know, I would love to be able to potentially protect other women by stopping this perpetrator, but also not have my name dragged into like this whole thing where you already— I mean, these women already had their own healing process that they had to go through, and so to get their name dragged into like an investigation, it just doesn't, it doesn't fit.

Right. I, that's, that I think that that would solve a lot, but I think like in my own case, yeah, it was almost like— I don't even know how to describe it because I was 18, had never experimented with alcohol, so I had no idea. I grew up in a very conservative home that was just taught like, just don't, don't even talk about it, don't think about it, don't look at it, don't surround yourself with it. And that's the solution. Like that's, that fixes the whole problem. It's so insane to me because it happened, you know, nearly 13 years ago. But leading up to that event is like so clear in my mind. And I remember even like the thoughts and the actions that I took. But I think what was so pivotal is like the morning after and kind of all of, all of the feelings and thoughts everything that led to this moment, I went back to my home where I was living at the time with my roommate and I said, "This is what happened. What should I do?" And she said, "Oh girl," because she was probably, gosh, 8 to 10 years older than me and she was like, "You know, like when you drink and you like choose to surround yourself with people who are drinking, you're just like putting yourself in that situation. So I think that that response immediately led me to think, oh, this is like a normal situation. Like, this isn't even worth reporting because there's no story or there's no, there's no reason for it. And so I remember that initial reaction. And just kind of like internalizing it. And I had a really close friend at work and I had told her, and it was actually her who had kind of encouraged me that it was a completely not okay situation, that that wasn't— and even if it is, you know, quote-unquote normal, it shouldn't be. And that she was like, I will go with you, like, this needs to be reported. And then I was— I had all of these thoughts like but I was drinking and I'm a minor. Like, is that going to play a role? And I remember going in and I was so nervous, so scared, like knots in my stomach. And I was in a room with a male officer and the questions that he was asking almost made me like just want to be like, nope, I don't want to be here anymore. Like he was like, do you know the boy? Like, do you know if he's done this before? And Okay, you were drinking. How do you know that like you weren't interested? Or do you know if you gave any signs? And of course, me now, I'm like, I should have been like, fuck you. Oh my gosh, like, it's not okay. But as an 18-year-old with zero experience with like any type of situation like this before, I'm like, I don't know. And I think also growing up, with the teachings that you're not allowed to be immodest because you're putting those thoughts into male brains. I had grown up with that. So all of that thought process to now, I'm like, oh my God, maybe I was wearing something that like triggered this. And so it was very like a manipulative situation that I didn't even know I was maybe that I was going into. And so just made it entirely uncomfortable in that sense as well, because I started like second-guessing and started questioning myself. And then I think that that was just that entire experience from the very first person to tell me, right after to like actually reporting and then having the officer be like, "Well, like, let's actually look at it." I think it was just like a total mindfuck.

And what happened after you reported to that guy?

Nothing. I mean, nothing really. He was like, "Do you know, you know, the name?" And I was like, "No." And I'm, you know, drinking, and I was like, "I don't know his name." And he was like, "Okay, so like, you know, and when was this? And like, when— why didn't you report right after?" And I'm like, "I don't know because I'm— this is like my very first experience and my roommate told me that it wasn't like, I don't know, valid. And so he just like, the way he was responding made me feel like I was just like—

Like you were doing something wrong, it sounds like. It sounds like that's what he was putting on you. Mm-hmm.

And so then I was like, well, at that point, and that kind of led me down a really dark path for a couple of years just because I already had the thought, if you drink, if you put yourself in that situation, that shit's just gonna happen to you. And so I think I went into like my college years just like thinking, well, okay, you're, you know, your virginity has already been taken from you. This has already happened. What's the point? You know, like, why does it matter anymore? So let's just keep drinking and keep allowing boundaries to get crossed because they've already been crossed. I didn't even know how to like reverse, you know.

I was gonna ask about your healing process after, because it sounds like— I mean, do you think that talking to that officer— and not for nothing, I'm sure your roommate is a great person also, but— and it's not her fault for thinking that, you know, it wasn't a big deal. That's what's been ingrained in us, unfortunately, in society. But like, do you think that those two experiences maybe hindered your healing process a little bit?

Yeah, and you know, and looking back, I'm like, gosh, like that stuff probably happened to her. And someone probably told her those things or something.

Yeah.

Because I can't imagine somebody coming to me and telling me that and me just being like, "Meh, that's what happens," like ever. Like that wouldn't even be a thought in my brain. So it's very interesting now older to wonder what had happened.

Yeah.

And also, yeah, I think that her response just immediately almost like reiterated what I had been taught growing up. Like, if you're immodest, if you surround yourself with, you know, bad things, bad people, bad things happen to you. So it was like a "I told you so, Kris" type of mentality. It's hard to even describe. I think the place that it put me in because I had gone from all of my life just like following rules and being taught these things and then like night and day, one thing changed my entire thought process and I had been opened up to this entire new way of thinking. The shame and guilt took over. I mean, for years. Years, and I didn't even really know what was happening. Like, I went from such a place of like no self-love at all. I think that those experiences and then some other ones in college, just by not having boundaries and not knowing how to heal, just totally like, you know, my early 20s was just like a tornado because I was like, what is happening? Like, I really was not— gosh, how old was I? I was probably 26 or 27 when I was like, okay, Yeah, what is happening? Like, why am I leading my life this way? And I had to like unpack it, and it really just came down to not loving myself, feeling not worthy. And it all stemmed like not necessarily at that moment, but everything that was compiled within that experience, and then just like other shit that kind of happened afterwards.

Well, I would say it sounds like it was It was a result of like at 18, which is such an impressionable age, learning this lesson that like, you know, this is what happens to you. Like you deserve it basically. Like learn that is a really hard thing to carry with you through your young adult years.

It's your intuition speaking. Just kidding, it's me, Kris. If you've been yearning for more but aren't sure where to start, your life doesn't look like your own, and you're ready to make changes that lead to a reality that feels like you, I encourage you to apply for a 15-minute complimentary Conjuring Call with me where we unearth your true desires and craft next steps that feel completely aligned with you. Click the link in the description of this episode to apply. Can't wait to meet you.

It reminds me so much of what happened to me because I was like 19 and right after freshman year of college and what it taught me, because you know, as you said with your growing up story and everything, I was so lucky to be raised by a ton of women. I mean, like my mom, my grandmas both live right around me, my mom's sister, like, and I have two younger sisters and a younger girl cousin, so it's just like all women. Woman all the time, and my dad too is also great, but he is the only male. And so yeah, so I was raised by them, so supportive, so— and I talk about them a lot in the book too, and just like the experience of always having my words valued by them, and you know, being taught very early on that my opinion mattered, like what I wanted mattered, and as long as I could communicate it clearly and for good reason, you know. So when it happened to me, I think what it really— what what really shook me was the new realization that, oh, my words actually don't matter to everyone. And it was really hard to be 19 and go through my early 20s thinking that, or like truly, because you know, when this type of thing happens, it's not just a thought, it's a deep-seated belief. When you go through this much like pain and healing and shock and everything, you know, I think the deep-seated belief was, yeah, my words don't matter. Actually matter that much. And that, despite everything that my family did to raise me to believe otherwise, that's a jarring, a jarring change. And, you know, hearing you tell your story and talking to these women in the book, and to circle back to your question about like taking on the energy, really what it does to me when I hear these stories is it makes me so upset because, you know, talking to you, we both know, and so Anyone who has experienced this knows that it is a seminal moment in your life, and it is a process that you have to go through after of getting through whatever newly toxic beliefs were instilled upon you in, in that act. And I just don't know why, or it seems so wrong to me that it's been happening to women forever. Like, this is something— and men experience it as well. But largely it is a woman issue and it feels like it's something that is a coming-of-age moment almost for so many of us and there are better ways to come of age than that.

When I was reading the first little bit of the work that you sent me and you talked about like now you were seeing in Indigo, right? Is that what it was? Yeah. I was like, yes. Like it was almost like a new lens was now, like I looked at life in a completely new lens and not in like an empowering, exciting way, but in like a, just like a really deep way that I was like, wow. Like nothing that I have worked for matters anymore. Like I had, you know, always wanted to be like the good religious girl and everything that I had done leading up to this point, it was like it had just been like washed away. It was the weirdest feeling, like a baptism but not a holy baptism. It was so fucking weird. And I remember my mom came to visit because we had kind of been in a fight. She lived 3 hours north and so she had— I got my phone the next morning and saw that she was like on her way. It was— I could just relate so much to your description of like, how am I gonna like talk to her? You know, like we've always been open. Now what am I supposed to say? And I remember she was like, are you okay? So I was drunk. I had taken like the day after pill. And I just remember like being so sick, like sick to my stomach, sick physically. I couldn't feel my vagina, it was completely numb. And I just, I couldn't even talk to her. Like, I didn't even know the words to say. And this was my mother, like, I had talked to her all growing up and there was like no words, there was no—

Did you tell her what happened?

No.

Mm-mm.

I didn't. And she went home and I didn't tell her what happened. It was probably like a month and a couple other experiences that had ended up happening. And I called a really close family friend and I said, "Oh my gosh, I am so lost. Like, I need help. I don't even know what to do." And she was like, "Okay, well, I'll tell your mom, you know, and like, just get all your stuff packed up and we'll come down and like get you." And I was like, okay. And I don't think she told my mom like the experiences. She just kind of told her like, Kris is going to come home for a little bit. And I got home and we like went to lunch, which is the weirdest thing to be like out in public, right? And like, oh, this is what happened. Yeah, it was so awkward and weird and completely uncomfortable. She didn't talk to me. For a couple of days and she was like sick to her stomach. I don't even think she knew like what to say, which I think at the time I just wanted to be like held, but I didn't know it because I had literally just shut off like all feeling, like I didn't want to have to feel anything. And so I just literally like said it as facts. And not because I didn't want to be attached to it. And so I remember like that reaction again was almost like, again was like a spiral into me being like, my mom doesn't even, you know, want to talk to me about it. So then it was just like another belief now that I was like taking on that you somehow did something wrong.

I mean, that, that would increase the shame so much. And there is like a chapter, the one I sent you about, that starts with the indigo metaphor, like that chapter is about telling your family or not telling your family and how if you report, you know, something that crossed my mind when I was thinking about whether or not to report was if I report, I'm going to have to tell my family because they'll know. Like if I'm going through like a huge legal process or whatever, again, and again, maybe I was being hopeful because as you found, oftentimes you report and nothing happens. So that's the first issue. But if something were to happen and I were to be one of the lucky few who was actually seriously when I reported, then my family would have to know because they would sense if I was absent, if I wasn't telling them things in phone calls. Like, it sounds like you had a pretty close relationship with your mom. Like, same. And, you know, I spoke to one woman in the book— I think this is one of my favorite stories that I tell— is she was actually assaulted by her cousin. So telling her family had a whole different set of repercussions. I mean, not only was she nervous about the same things we were nervous about, about how they were going to react. And, you know, I say in my story I was just so nervous that my mom or someone would say something offensive like, "Oh, but you, you were drinking, right?" Like, and then I would just not be able to like forgive them or get past it. So that's why I didn't want to tell them. But she didn't want to tell because she was like, "This is my dad's like brother's son," you know? And that she was gonna cause a family rift.

It's a family, like they, they like did everything together.

Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. And then, of course, there's that whole bit at the end about Phil Saviano, who is a character in the movie Spotlight, but is also a real person, who was assaulted by his priest when he was like, I think around the age of 10, in Boston, or in Worcester, and his dad didn't believe him. And once his dad found out that he had gone to the Globe with his accusations, His dad got really mad at him and was just like, "You could have just kept this between us. Like, this is not something you need to share." And it took a long time for Phil's dad to come around to the fact that what his son was doing was actually really brave. But I just imagine, I mean, I have so much empathy for Phil in that situation. And there's not a lot of press on it at all. But I just think that, you know, if the person you want to support you the most isn't being supportive, you really feel that lack, you know? Like, I remember not being able to tell my family because I was afraid of how they'd react. That was the hardest part by far. And, you know, I told all my friends, like every girlfriend, every boyfriend that I ever had, I told. But it still didn't feel like I was really being open or honest because I just— I didn't have the support of my family just because I didn't give them that opportunity for a long time.

Right. No, and I think that's so true. You want the people closest to you, and I wouldn't even say like, I don't even, I don't even know if I knew what I wanted, but I just wanted somebody to like hold space for it and like not even say, oh, like this needs to be recorded. And I think that that was something that was missing for a while, and also because I like shut people out. And I mean, a lot of it's foggy because I think I I didn't want to think about a lot of things, and so I just kind of went down a path of a lot of like drinking, and sex really didn't mean anything to me at all anymore, which was such a 180 from like growing up and having this dream of like only having sex with my husband. And then it like went to like, well, now that's gone, so let's just have sex with everyone instead. Like, I think that in itself like totally fucks with your mind. And then Even now, just like being older and understanding like we're all energy and we have vibes, and I'm like, having sex is such an energetic thing. Just even taking on somebody else's energy like during that and how that affected things, and I'm just like, wow, I wonder how it would have been different if even just that first reaction would have just been a little bit different, or if I would have told my mom and just felt not so much shame around it. So as a mother now, how can I— like, what can I say to all of my kids that truly brings it home and reiterates that no matter what happens to you, like, and there will be bad things, that like we have to talk about it because it's the only way to heal and move past it. Because every time that we internalize, it just— it can do really, really harmful things and not just for like a year, but for like decades.

I mean, that's why I was so drawn to your podcast and I knew that we would connect because honestly what I came to, because, you know, a lot of people are asking like, what is the solution then? You know, for what? How do we fix this problem? And I feel like the answer is create a system that people can report into. But the more I spoke to law enforcement and advocates about that, The more I began to understand that that type of reform is tied to a lot of other reform, and it's going to take a really long time. And so, you know, me being really driven by solving this problem for the women that it's happening to right now, like yesterday, tomorrow, like one in five women, you know, I think for me, the solution right now, I still think we need to keep pushing law enforcement to make reforms, but For right now, I think the best we can do is share story. And when you spoke about the power of sharing story and just how you did right there, I mean, I think that speaking to women for this book was really powerful. My hope is that if this has happened to anyone and they feel like they can't talk to someone or they don't have a support system or a community to share their experience with, they'll be able to pick up the book and then all of a sudden they have 10 people who also went through this and had varying degrees of healing. And varying struggles. And I, you know, I thought a lot about becoming a mom someday and how I'm gonna handle it. And my editor and I were talking about, because this happened to her too and she's one of the stories, we were talking about a bit about the power of being detached from what happened. I know it seems like a bad thing because you do want to be in those emotions, and don't get me wrong, there was a time when I was very in the emotions and in the feelings, but I find that it's really powerful now to be able to sit and be like, "Yeah, I was raped," or, "Yeah, I was sexually assaulted," you know, or, "Yeah, my consent was violated," however you want to say it. I think being able to just be a happy person and show that you are okay, but also just talk about it matter of fact, I mean, even that can just help reduce another person's shame that went through it. 'Cause, I don't know, for a long time I felt like I couldn't tell people because it would reflect on me, and If you just openly say it and seem detached, it's just very clear that it doesn't reflect on you, you know?

Yeah, well, and I think it really is just such a taboo topic, period, because sex is such a taboo topic. Yeah. So just like you said, I mean, when your consent gets violated and it's all around like sex and somebody not respecting you, I think that all of it is just kind of shame-based, like you should feel some sort of shame around it. And I mean, even like alcohol or being an addict, like all of these things that happen so much in our society are these taboo topics that it's become so out of control, I think, because we don't talk about it or because if somebody does want to talk about it, we're like, "Oh, this is uncomfortable. This isn't happy. I don't want to talk about this. Like, I can't hold space for this right now." And so I remember, like, it felt weird to me to talk about it. And it also felt extremely weird to me because growing up in such a small religious town, of course, when I came home, I mean, even just like one person that was like, oh, you know, Kris was there and she like came back. There were so many rumors that were insane. I remember I had been at college now for like 2 years, so I had 2 years past this and I was over at somebody's apartment, this girl that I had grown up with, from the same town, and she was like, "You know, I know we've never really talked about why you ended up coming to college here," because originally I was gonna go to college in Phoenix and then I ended up going to Flagstaff, and she was like, "I know we've never really like talked about this, but you know, like I heard that you like got an abortion and like I'm really sorry," and I was like, "No, that's not what happened," and she like had all of these things that she had heard about something that had happened to me. And then I almost felt like my experience had been taken in a sense and turned into something that was totally out of context. And then it was not even like it had just been laid out on the table for everyone to just take on themselves. And I was like, whoa, it was a very like weird feeling to have. But also because I had decided to wear that mask, I was just like, don't feel that, just like keep going. God bless my husband now because he truly has held space for all of that and like seen the destruction that I came into our marriage. I had started working on myself, but I mean, it doesn't just happen overnight. And so, I mean, he has totally let me just bleh all of it and just been like, I'm here, like through it all, you know, and it's been extremely comforting to have that person. And I think that that has allowed me to be like what you said, like I truly can step out of it and be like, yep, like this happened. Yes, it was a part of me and it did happen, but it almost is like I'm just telling a story now.

Yeah, yeah, which is really, really empowering. I mean, I— what you were saying about the person in your town assuming what had happened to you and even just feeling uncomfortable that people knew you were home and knew something was happening. I think that is almost like a micro version of what happens to, you know, I talk in the book about Christine Blasey Ford, Chanel Miller, and then I don't know if you've ever heard of Lauren O'Connor, but she was the woman who wrote a memo about the culture at the Weinstein Company, and she just wrote this internal memo that she sent to HR. She was never assaulted or harassed by Weinstein, but she had seen other women, it happen to other women, and one woman actually ended up showing at her door, showing up at her hotel room door in the middle of the night one night crying after Harvey Weinstein had just assaulted her. And so Lauren wrote this memo and had no intention of it like leaking. And then someone, a high-up executive at the company after Lauren left, I mean Lauren had moved on, she got a new job, arguably a better job, at Amazon Studios, and is just such a cool, badass woman, and then her memo got leaked to the New York Times, and don't get me wrong, I think that the New York Times did great reporting, obviously. That piece won a Pulitzer, it's incredible, and they needed to use her name because of journalistic integrity, and then Jodi and Megan, they wrote a book called She Said, and in that book they explain exactly why they used her name, and how agonizing the process of deciding to use her name was. But because they used her name, she says it really well in interviews, she always felt as if whenever she walked into a room with a stranger, they already knew her. You know, they already had this sense of almost pity for her, or they felt like they knew her story. And as you were saying, no one really knows your story except you. And once the media gets a hold of it and blows it up sometimes in the way that that can happen, you know, it's just hard because you lose control and you can't be the one to inform, you know, everyone the truth. Or sometimes even like the guy ends up getting, you know, more shit than you might have even wanted him to, which is another thing to consider. And, you know, I like the media. I want to be— I am a part of the media, but that doesn't mean like their coverage is always great on these things.

That kind of gives you the power back when you share your own story. You like get that opportunity to tell it instead of letting other people tell it for you.

So exactly, exactly. And I think that's what Chanel Miller did so beautifully in her book Know My Name. So awesome. She was the one who was, uh, had like the Stanford swimmer. Yeah, so you should definitely check out that book if you want. I think that the way that I told the women's stories in this book, you know, some of them when I sent them their chapter, they were like, "No thank you, I don't want to be in this anymore," because it's scary to see your story in print and in a chapter. But others, I think it was a cool experience for them to be like, "Oh, that's how I would want it to be told." And, you know, and that's definitely how it is for my story too. Putting my story down the way I wanted it to be told was really empowering.

I really, really love that. So if there's somebody who's listening to this who feels like they don't have a support system or somebody that they can tell their story to, are you open to somebody connecting with you?

Yes, yes, definitely. Please reach out. My email is just KayleeNYC@gmail.com. I really leaned into that when I moved to New York.

I love that. Oh, thank you. And thank you so, so much for for sharing your story and for giving others the opportunity to share theirs. I think it's super important work.

Thank you. And I just want to say, I bet you're the best mom ever. I mean, you are so in touch with yourself. Your kids are lucky.

Thanks so much for tuning in to I Fucking Knew. To apply for a complimentary conjuring call, click the link in this episode's description and share with a friend.