He Cheated 3 Months Before Our Fully Planned Wedding

I'm Sarah Wasselek. I am a podcast host. I'm a writer. I am the director of commerce at PopSugar, and I am a cat mom and a runner. And that's like mostly what the gist is. I'm trying to like not speak in context of work because I feel like this podcast is like not about work, obviously.

I'm Kristjana Hillberg, and this is I Fucking Knew, a show where we break down life's unexplainable moments, the times when you knew something was off but couldn't put your finger on it, and when your gut feeling was just too loud to ignore. Each episode features a guest who shares how their intuition showed up for them. These are the moments that change our lives forever. Ready to strengthen your intuition?

I'm a very open book. Like, that's kind of who I am. If you, like, go on my social media, you see that I'm just, like, open about everything. I'm very honest and I feel like that's kind of like become my personality. And even though I'm like obviously not famous, my brand in a sense, I mean, that's one reason why I was so like drawn to you.

It's so wild. Social media still kills me sometimes because I'm like, we can literally like peek in on anyone and see their life and feel so connected to them and not really know them, you know, like even I feel like I'm like you in that sense. I'm very open and honest and transparent, but there are still things that, you know, I might— and not even necessarily on purpose, but like, I don't video my whole life. And so you get like this tiny little glimpse that almost makes me feel like I have to continuously say, like, just because I'm smiling in all my photos doesn't necessarily mean that my life is always happy. Like, you know, quite the contrary. Like, I— my kids probably, you know, see me cry. I've been trying to embrace more like Life is full of all the emotions, and some days I feel 37 in one day, and that's like totally normal and totally typical compared to, you know, growing up. I felt like I, I was almost, you know, taught to just be happy, and if I wasn't, it was something that was going on with me. Like, well, you know, you need to just flip your mindset quick, just be thankful for what you have. So it was like a lot of toxic positivity that I didn't even really know, like, I was living in until later on in life where I'm like, Oh my gosh, I feel this need to be happy at all times that I'm not even letting myself experience any other emotion because I keep like pushing it down. Like, just be happy, everything's fine. Which I'm sure a lot of people can relate to.

Of course. And like, just you speaking on the topic of social media, I feel like I'm just thinking about this now, like in the moment, but I feel like it kind of was like an arc, right? Like when it first started out, people were like, what is like Instagram? What is this? And I feel like if I scroll all the way to the bottom of my feed, like, you know, I joined Instagram when everyone did and it was kind of like, this is what I ate today. And like, it— oh, we were doing all the filters. And like, it was very real. And then the whole rise of like influencer blogger culture came. And it was all fake. And like, everyone I followed, it was all for show. And there was no like shame about it not being real. And now I feel like we're kind of at this place where like, okay, we've just been through a pandemic. Like, we're in a political— like, everything is crisis. So people are like, all right, well, let's be like more real. And you can find those real people, but it's so like, it's not consistent. It's like you'll see some people who you followed from years ago that are still on that whole like, I'm always happy kick, you know? But like, I am like, like you, like seeking the people who I think I connect with the most. And it is interesting because like, we don't know each other, but like, we instantly kind of like vibed. And we only really— that only happened because like, we saw each other on social media and we learned a little bit about each other. And It is very easy to do that. It's easy to, like, make social media friends these days. It's like the internet is controlling our lives.

Yeah, no, 100%. I even for like a quick second, I watched— what is the one? The Social Dilemma. I watched it again with my almost 12-year-old because she has a phone. And so I just wanted her to kind of like be aware because I remember when I first watched it, I was like, oh my God. Like, there was a lot of things in there that I just, you know, wasn't knowledgeable about. And so we watched it together. And after that I was like, you know, a lot of times when I get on social media, Instagram specifically, I feel kind of like shit afterwards. And so I was kind of digging into that. Like, I was like, why? Because I follow most of my friends. Like, what's going on here? And it really was almost this feeling that like, I'm not doing enough. Like I'm not cool enough. Almost like that, that same feeling that I got, you know, when I was a, a young girl and I will never forget this. I moved to a new town and I was wearing this Old Navy shirt that was bright pink and it had like 4 little gel strips like across the front that could, you could like move and there was like glitter.

Oh my God, I love those shirts.

I loved that shirt so much. I wore it like once a week and I wore it to school on my first day and I got made fun of like multiple times by like different kids and I was like, oh, like I'm not, I thought this was cool. I guess it's not. And so almost like I was almost feeling like that again, where it's like, I think that I'm wearing like this really cool shirt that everyone is gonna be like, wow, that's really awesome. And I'm not getting that. And so I was like, okay, that kind of feels tied to like external validation and you know, how can I find that myself? So it was kind of like going off and on social. I was like not posting for a while and just like not looking at it on purpose. And I started to feel like, oh, A lot of this is controlled by me and my own mindset. Like, I could still look at the same stuff and not get to that point. I don't even know what I'm trying, like, how to explain it. But in that time, I realized that my in-person conversations with people were like fueling me. They were like giving me this thing that I hadn't had in a long time. I was even just telling Kurt this morning, like, I stopped in at the coffee shop and the guy actually wanted to have a conversation, like a full conversation. And I was like, I don't get this enough, like at all. And so I was fully in it. Like I got back in the Jeep and I was like, I was there for 15 minutes and that doesn't happen. Like you usually get in, get out, like whatever, have a nice day. And it was so refreshing in this way that I'm like, oh, I don't get like personal. Of course I get connection. I have kids and a husband, that's fine. But it's just different. Like it's different when it's your peer and you're like engaging in a conversation. And I'm like, typically this happens on social media. Like this is not happening in real life.

Yeah, 100%. Or like at work where you don't necessarily want to be having it with those people. Like you'd rather be having it with your friends and your loved ones and like, you know, you don't get to see them as often. So I totally get that. And I, I mean, being from New York, New Jersey, like it is so rare that someone would want to have a conversation when you're like grabbing your coffee. I would say like more Jersey than like New York, but I just think of like running in to get my coffee in New York yesterday and just like it is so fast paced. No one gives a shit who they're handing their coffee to, you know?

Right.

Conversation.

No, totally. When I was just in the city, my Uber driver was like, oh, you're not from here, are you? He's like, you're really chatty. I was like, oh, I guess I just like figured everyone was. I just act like a Midwesterner in the city and people are always like, okay, who are you? I feel like our culture is almost like, okay, in the dating world, you— it's not just like, are they going to like me? It's like, am I going to like them? But growing up dating, I never ever once thought that. It was always, are they going to like me? And what am I going to do? Like all the things on my checklist that I needed to do in order to make somebody else like me. So dating looked really goofy because I was just like, anybody who liked me, I was like, this is great because they like me. And there was never this back in, like, me considering if I liked them. Did you experience that in your dating?

Yeah, so growing up, this is interesting, and like, probably this has to do with like the first time that like I fucking knew in a dating concept. I just can recall one moment, but regardless, I met— I had a high school sweetheart, but like he was also my like middle school sweetheart. Like, I was with him, um, I think starting in like 6th or 7th grade. And for me, like, I obviously liked boys before. Like, I was, like, very boy crazy. I always was, like, you know, liking someone, but it was never more than that. And I think, like, him being my first real relationship, that's when, like, emotions really started to, like, come into play. And I definitely remember feeling like, I want him to like me. I don't ever remember feeling like, I want someone else to like me until it was, like, maybe, like, sophomore, junior year when we were, like, running into problems. Because, like, you know, relationships, like, whatever, like, you're in high school, of course. And I remember, like, that was when we had our first, like, breakup. And, like, I was with other people and he was with— and I thought it was cool that, like, other people liked me because I had never considered that before. So I think that really happened, like, to me in high school. And I remember, like, not, like, with him. I remember we were friends first, which is, like, actually a pattern that I happen to— when it comes to dating, I love comfort. I'm a Taurus. Seek comfort at all times. So it just makes sense that historically, my relationships were always like, this person was my best friend first. And I was like, probably best friends with him for like a year. So it was kind of like, I already knew he liked me. Like, I wasn't, you know, I almost waited for the validation. Like, we're best friends. Now I know he's into me because like, he made the first move to make it romantic. And then, then I remember like, after that period where I wanted other people to like me, and we were hooking up with other people. And, you know, I still loved him. Like, I still— he was my first love for sure. And like, then I remember it being more like, well, what can I do to make him like want to be with me again and not still be wanting to explore other people? And like, it did work out and we came back to each other. But then the relationship was very much like, we don't know how to live in this town, this small town where everyone knows each other without being together. But That was kind of like the context of it. And I, I do think that like, yeah, there was always like, it was like, you know, in the way that I dressed or what I always tried to be myself. But I remember feeling a lot like frustrated if I didn't feel like I got like his attention, you know?

Yeah, no, totally. I was just thinking about this. I had a friend that went through a divorce and when she was chatting with me kind of about like her past relationships and how she kind of morphed into this different person while she was with this guy. I was thinking back on like, where have I done that? And of course, like, maybe in high school, but even then I was just like— this was one of the times where I was like patting myself on the back for being like, you've never really morphed into like what, you know, what they wanted you to be or anything like that. It's almost like my hobby is just expanded, or my interests expanded, right? Like, I'm like, oh, I can totally go to a skate park and feel totally fine because I dated a skater. Or I love going to museums and just sitting in silence because I dated an artist and the guy who was really into that. So it's like, it's not that I necessarily liked different things, I just feel like it almost like introduced me to new things that I maybe wouldn't have been introduced to. But it's so funny because we're both Tauruses But I had never dated somebody that I was friends with previously. But what almost happened on the other side was once I dated you, it's like, now I'll love you forever. And not even in like, I want to be with you forever, but just like, I'll love you forever. Like, there's just like, I see that you have good in you and like, you'll always be like that in my head. And so I've noticed that with like anyone I've ever loved or like even just strongly liked. I feel that sense of like, oh, I'll always love them. Even if it was 25 years ago, I still will be like, oh, like when I think about them. But I feel like I'm more of like a Gemini when it comes to— that's my moon— or Aquarius rising. Like, I feel like I'm more of like novelty. Who are you? Like, I see you and like, I want to date you today.

Yeah.

My best friend would be like, oh my God, I've heard this. I've heard you say that this person is your soulmate over and over. Like, okay, sure. And it was just so funny. Like, I'm like, I met someone and she's like, oh God, yeah, you need You meet someone every day, like you love everybody every day. I'm like, yeah, I guess that's true. But Kurt, my husband, is the one that I was friends with before. And like, it was— it's such a different vibe, like going into us deciding to get married because he had seen me at like all of the levels. And before I knew that he actually liked me like that, you know. So it was just like a very comfortable feeling of like this person is just my friend and is able to see me, you know, my highs and my lows and like he never judged. And so it was like this. Yeah, this very comfort grounding feeling with him that I had never experienced before because most of the other relationships were like, you know, fly by the seat of my pants, like, this is fun. But with Kurt, it was like he knows me and then he's still choosing me over and over and over again. You know, it was just like, yeah, Very more Taurus energy, 100% there.

So it's actually very interesting because we're opposites when it comes to like the person. I mean, I'm going to talk about Nick in the sense that like he is my partner right now. I live with him, like I'm in his apartment right now. But like, I know he is the one for me and like, we'll get into all of that. But it's interesting because he's the one person who I wasn't friends with first and we met and it was immediately romantic. But I will say, like, first of all, I'm an Aquarius rising too. I think that's so funny.

Oh my gosh, I love that.

So we're really matching.

Okay.

But then the other thing I was going to say that what you were saying made me think of is that I— oh, I know. So when it comes to loving people forever, I'm a people person in the sense that I love everyone I meet. I try to see the good in everyone. Like, I don't not like you until, like, kind of like you've done me wrong kind of thing. And then it's just like grudge, Taurus stubbornness, like, no, never again. But I feel that way about people that I was romantic with if they weren't the ones who broke my heart. Like, I had a couple of guys that I, like, dated throughout high school, even guys in college that I dated. And if it didn't get to a point where, like, I was with them for years and they broke my heart or they cheated on me or something, I will always love them. But if it was the other way, like, I will always have that grudge. And, like, if I were to see even, like, my high school boyfriend now who cheated on me. Like, there's always gonna be that, like, fuck you. Yeah, fuck you. Like, I'm never gonna be, you know, like— and, and, and, and, and with my ex, like, it's like the same thing. Like, I just don't want to associate with you. Like, that kind of feeling. But yeah, that's— it's interesting that we're twisted when it comes to that. Like, with Kurt, you, you know, were friends first, which I find to be the most comfortable way to go into the relationship. But with Nick, it was uncomfortable for me. So like, obviously I'm glad it's working out and we got past that hump, but it wasn't the way it started.

Totally. No, I love that. And, you know, I used to think that I'm like, oh, I love change. I love like newness and novelty and learning new— like, and I'm still the same way when it comes to like learning new things and doing new hobbies. Like, I'm still 100% there. But, but now, like 7 years into our marriage, I'm like, I actually find a lot of comfort that I had kind of built this wall because of, you know, the way that I had grown up, that I was just like, you know, probably just beliefs that I was just telling myself. I didn't even know I was telling myself, but like, people leave, you can't trust people, whatever. And I didn't really fully let myself like open like that until probably several years into our marriage. And now I'm like, this feels so safe and grounding that like I really I don't like—

I—

the change of it or from it like makes my heart just like, you know, just hurts so bad. Whereas before I think I was just like, it's fine, you know, almost like shutting that off and being like, it's okay, like what's next, you'll be fine kind of thing. Um, but actually truly letting myself feel that like deep sorrow for what if something were to happen because I just never I just never used to let myself— I mean, I already said that earlier. Like, I just never let myself feel those, like, deep emotions, especially of, like, grief or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're different in that way too, because so I hate change and I do like learning new things. Like when you talk about like, oh, like, you know, like, let's say like your partner or like whoever you're with, even in high school, they're a skater. Like, I always like, liked that. Like, sure, I'll try something new, but if it was going to affect, like, a big life change, no way. And I think that's part of the reason why I stayed with my ex for as long as I did. It's definitely not the full reason. Like, there's so much more to unpack there. But I think there's, like, a little bit of me hating change and valuing that, like, Taurus, I love comfort thing that made me just want to stay and say, fuck it, it'll get better kind of thing. So I think that's interesting. And yeah, I mean, like, as far as of really appreciating and wanting, like, it to stay and, and thinking, like, what if it didn't? I am a very what-if person. Like, I'm very anxious, and I've always thought the what-ifs. But I think that there were also so many times in my life where I was blindsided too. Like, I didn't, I didn't catch that what-if. Like, didn't think that was going to be a possibility, you know?

Yeah, well, let's just start talking about the times because we can both say that we've had times where we just fucking knew and ignored it. And then we also had times where we fucking knew and we didn't ignore it. And then it kind of led us down this path that was completely unexpected. So one of those for you was with your ex. And so, I mean, I don't know where you want to start, whether it was because talking about change, like you moved to a different state with him, which is a massive change. So, yeah, when was the first time with him that you just fucking knew and you kept ignoring it? And honestly, looking, it's always, you know, 20/20. Every time you look back. But humans, right, have been taught that, like, you know, we, we second-guess. Like, well, what if that's wrong though? Or like, what if I'm just— what if I'm just being judgy? Or what, you know, it's like this what-if in a sense of like, I don't know, doubting that you might be wrong. And being wrong is scary because we've like raised our hands in class and been like, wrong, and it's embarrassing. So there's so many feelings that come with that, like, scariness of saying something and being wrong. And so I think that there's just so much tied up in the times that we did know and we ignored it, because it's not just ignoring it. It's like all these other things that kind of trickle in.

Let me give like a little bit of a background. I mean, to be honest, for anyone who's listening to this, this story could be a movie. Like, it is kind of crazy if I go all the way through. But let me get like, start with like just the background and just say that I haven't really— like, I'm starting to open up and write about my experience and everything now for the first time, first and foremost, to help other women and let them know that they're not alone. Like, 100%, that's the reason why. But it was also because I didn't really— like, I even, like, you know, I chickened out on our pot for the first time we scheduled this podcast because, like, I don't know if I, like, fully understood it for a very long time. So now I feel like I really do. I've been through therapy. Like, I have a grasp on it and I— so basically, we grew up in the same town, me and my ex, and we didn't really know each other through high school. Like, you know, he claims that he, like, knew who I was. I really didn't know who he was. He was a year older than me. And then, you know, we became friends. It's— I don't want to go, like, all the way into how we became friends, but, like, funnily enough, he actually had hooked up with my best friend, like, you know, like, briefly before we— the two of us even got together. That was kind of his way in. With me. He had like messaged me in the middle of the night one night and been like, why is your, you know, your best friend not into me anymore? Like one of those. And then it became like a budding friendship. Eventually he tells me like, you know, when we first met, like when our friend group kind of started to hang out after college, he tells me like, you know, it was always you, like I always was into you, but like you were hooking up with so-and-so, whatever. The year go— year and a half go goes by and I'm still in college and like he was like entering the real world. And we started to hang out more and more after I left college. And like, I, I, I don't want to say that like he convinced me that I liked him, like no way. But it was very much the comfort, the best friend thing. I had already taught myself to him, you know, throughout, throughout that first year that we were friends. So it just felt really comfortable. And that's how our relationship started. And I will say that, like, there— this is like a story about emotional abuse. And I'm not saying that, like, I wasn't, like, abusive back, because I think sometimes as a defense mechanism, like, that is what happens. And also, like, trauma loves trauma sort of thing. But I definitely, like— it was maybe 2 or 3 years into the relationship where it turned. So at first it was more like he really wanted me, he was, like, after me. Like, he was always picking me up, trying to get me to hang out him. And then it became much more like every little thing I said and did was not good enough. Um, you know, all of the things that are signs of emotional abuse is the way he was treating me— very nitpicky. Um, wouldn't tell me I was beautiful, wouldn't give me compliments, used to tell people like, that will give her a big head. So, and, and then once we moved in together, because that's kind of like where the story turns even more, um, it got to a point where I was starting to believe what he was telling me about myself. And this is where it gets to a point that we started to acknowledge it. And I— because I am the kind of person, like you were saying before, you won't change for anyone. I didn't— I wasn't changing myself for anyone. But this gets into COVID and during the social and political reckoning that we experienced, right? And I'm a very liberal person. His family is not. And all of this was coming to light. And it's so funny because like back then, before like that election happened and like Trump happened, we didn't talk about that stuff. It just wasn't part of our relationship. And now it was becoming part of our relationship. I'm from a liberal family, so he was putting my family down all the time, telling me that they didn't have like one smart bone in their body, like really horrifying things. And he used to make fun of my dad, which was, I think, probably the most hurtful thing to me because he was like really targeting the people who could have convinced me to leave almost like. And I— and there were many times that I did leave and I, you know, made it clear at one point during this time that I'm only coming back if we go to couples therapy, if we go to therapy. And he actually admitted and realized and we kind of had like one of those moments where I was like, oh, maybe this is why I should stay, right? Like all those times when I left, I knew it. I did fucking know in a sense. But I always, like, I believed in him and I was happy about the comfort. So I was like, I know it, but he can change. And I know it, but he wants to go to therapy. Like, I know it, but like, he sees that the reason why he treats me this way is because he grew up watching his dad treat his mother this way. And he's still— and he wants to get better. So it was like seeing the best in people. That was my downfall in those moments when I fucking knew. And then so we start going to couples therapy and he has acknowledged, like, he even acknowledged it with his mom, I believe, like, I'm, you know, putting her down because, like, I watched this happen in my own house, like, being very, like, you know, open about it with everyone. And then he started to, like, kind of back away from— we couldn't call it emotional and verbal abuse anymore. Like, in therapy, I was sensing, like, uh, him putting his foot down about like just how far he was willing to go to do the work. And yes, then we got engaged, and that was another point where I did feel like I fucking knew, and I got engaged anyway. And I vividly remember he did it in Hilton Head with my family, so his family wasn't there, which was a sacrifice on his end. And I think that was one of those little things that I was like, see, like, he is gonna be better, like But I knew I had this sense, like, not to say yes that I ignored when we first got there. And he was being a dick to my family. He said that he was sick and didn't join us for dinner. And we got into a huge fight and he made me cry. And then he, like, did one of his, like, door slam things or whatever and, like, basically threatened me because I knew that he had the ring there and that we were— I knew that the engagement was going to happen. Like, I knew. And he was just like, you know, I have this in my bag. Like, I don't need to do this kind of thing. And I remember him sleeping off his, like, cold or whatever, and me being outside with my mom and my sister and them saying to me, like, you know, just because you say yes doesn't mean you have to go through with it. And I don't want to say I like— I think it was my sister who said that to me, who I'm very close with. I don't want to say that, like, that's the reason why I said yes. Like, I did want to marry him because I had it envisioned my life with him at this point. We were together for almost 8 years and at this point maybe like almost 7 years. And so I said yes. And then the pandemic happened and, you know, there was a lot of stress involved because his job was going to take us out to a different state. And when it came time to go, I was, I was feeling like very needed and we were planning our wedding and there was no way. I mean, as long as I was able to keep my job, which we found out I was, probably because it was the pandemic and I wasn't really needed in the city at that time. I was like, I'm going to go and I'm going to keep planning the wedding and I'm going to do this. And those are my little moments of knowing but not acting on it. And I will even say, like, before I went, many of my friends who care very deeply about me also questioned it. And I— my mom even tells me that one of my best, best friends had a conversation with her at our going away party and was just kind of like, Is she really doing this? Like, she's really going to go? And my mom said, she needs to figure this out for herself. And I'm very— my mom, like, she'll laugh if she listens to this. She is the kind of person that is always hands in the business. And I love that. Like, I think that I have probably trauma from it, and that's a whole nother issue to unpack. But I— my sister and I, I know, are very grateful for her support and how involved she is. And that was one of the times where she actually took a step step back. And I was like very grateful that she did, and she wanted me to figure it out on my own. And my friends had conversations and they were just like, he needs to change, or like, why are you gonna do this? So there, there we were then in a different state.

Oh my gosh, I was just— I think when you're also in something that just becomes a normal for you, it's so hard to to see that it's not normal, even when people are telling you, like— and I mean, I have religion, like my past religion upbringing that I can kind of relate to, is that I'm like, it was totally normal to just like, you know, be told X, Y, and Z, and I didn't think anything differently until I did. And then I was like, oh my God. And then you can kind of go back and be like, Oh wow, that's kind of like when I did start to feel this way and then it just kind of compounded and compounded. But you have no way of knowing because it's just like totally normal to you. So once you guys got there, what did it just kind of go downhill from there or was it— did he kind of like make an up and up for a little bit?

I was there for 6 months and this will be very interesting because there was another kind of moment where I knew and I fought it, and I was very open with him about that moment. So we were there for 6 months, and literally, I will say it in the context of planning our wedding, we were getting married, you know, about— so we were there for 6 months, we were getting married about 9 months from the time we moved there, and we were getting married back home, but we were planning everything, and we had pretty much like everything done besides like the dessert, and there was— we met a new group of people, which like, of course you're going to. And I think that that hugely impacted our relationship. I never looked at other guys. I don't— like I said, like, I'm very comfortable.

I am.

I have a very flirty personality. I will say that. And that's one thing that I think he accepted about me because like he had one too. And we were just both very outgoing people. And, but even so, like, even being flirty, it was always— we were always hanging out with the same group of people back home. So I didn't like— no one new, like, caught my eye or anything like that. So when we went out to, you know, when we went out and we moved and we met this group of people, there was someone there who I was attracted to. And I haven't felt that in like so— like, I hadn't felt that in so long. And I was like, what does this mean? Like, I was really upset and I ended up telling him, like, I can't— I cannot lie and I cannot keep it. I have so much guilt when I lie or keep a secret from my loved ones. Like, I— there's no way I would be able to lie to someone. So I told him and we actually talked about it in therapy. And I— and his response was, you know, you can think other people are good looking, but just don't cheat. And he also knew that, like, I had been cheated on by my high school boyfriend and that cheating was like the biggest no-no for me. Like, He knew that there was no way I would stay with someone who cheated on me. So yeah, it started to go downhill from there. There were definitely moments where, like, I could feel us not connecting during this time where, like, I almost felt like— like I would sit on the couch next to him and I could sense that he, like, wanted to be alone. And what ended up happening is he went on, like, our best friend's bachelor party. And it was literally like 3 months before the wedding. And I mean, he also had— I knew he was still planning on marrying me when I dropped him off at the airport. Let's just say that because he had deposited my parents' check for the wedding the day before. And the first night he was there, he even called me. They were out. They were all out, like him and his friends. And by the way, this is like my group of friends too. It's our best friend, like We share the same friends. And he had called me and, like, told me to add someone to the wedding guest list. This is, like, the first night he's there. Well, the second night he's there, he cheats.

So—

but he and my friends— like, I love my friends. I love the guys who were there with him that told me what happened. Because— not because it matters, because it doesn't matter, right? Like, in hindsight, he cheated. He was unfaithful. This was not my person. But in hindsight, it almost just means something to me because I feel like they saw through what was actually happening. And I'm not going to say that they were like, oh, we know he's emotionally abusive. They weren't in the relationship. But I think they saw what an asshole he was being and how he was behaving. And I think that they knew that I am a good person. And I think that they felt so strongly for me. So they were very open about what happened and what they saw. And I obviously won't get into those details because I don't even know if it's true.

True, right?

Like he said, she said, we don't know. But I was told that like one of the things he said was like the girl that he had met, this is my— like, this is who I should be with. So it was so strong that it was worth cheating and breaking off the engagement. And this girl was engaged as well, and she also, I guess, felt the same way. Um, we won't talk about her because she doesn't deserve more than that, those words.

So did you hear then, like, did he call you and tell you, or no?

So, and this is like where it like gets into like the whole movie thing. Um, he did not tell me. So he was there on the Friday, calls me, says, add this person to the wedding guest list. Um, Saturday, uh, you know, and by the way, like my best friend whose bachelor party it was, he married my best friend in the world. Like, so we were on the phone the next night and she was like, do you see that Snapchat? Like, there are girls on the bus with them. And I was like, they would never cheat on us. Like, that's not happening. And like, plus This is your fiancé. Like, no, you know, like, it's his bachelor party. That's never gonna happen. And I guess, like, so when her soon-to-be husband got home from the trip, he told her what happened, um, because they all witnessed it. And no, my ex did not tell me at that point. He got home, I picked him up from the trip, he obviously felt like shit and he slept the whole day, and he then left left the very next day because he— part of what his job was, was to travel within the area that we moved to, and he had like a 2-day trip. So he goes out on the 2-day trip, and the night that he gets there, it was like a very bad snowstorm. And it was like my mom and his mom were like calling him, and they were like, you need to go home, you're gonna get stuck there, like go home. And like, little did I know, at this point all of his friends are kind of like threatening him, and he was still talking to the girl. And they— and, you know, I think he was like leaning on the girl the same way he like leaned on me to help him move so that he could, you know, have a better job, whatever. And he— and I guess they— my mom and his mom convinced him to come home, but he spent another night, I guess, I don't know, deciding what, because like there was no denying I was gonna find out. But I'll never forget the night before because he opened a bottle of wine when he got home. So like, you know, his trip goes south and he comes home and like he opened a bottle of wine. He was making steak for himself and he like asked me if I wanted wine. And I remember saying like, yeah, I'll have wine. He never like poured me a glass, ended up drinking the whole bottle by himself. Never will forget this. And then like he just kind of like got really nauseous in the middle of cooking and I finished cooking for him. But he, I think, was very anxious. He was a very anxious person too, but was very anxious in the moment. And he, like, had to go to sleep. And I was like, something now is weird. But the next day, I didn't think anything was that weird. He woke up. He showered. He went into his office and started doing work. Halfway through the day, he comes out. And he— like, we're in the living room. And he's, like, white as a ghost. And he— tells me, this is the hardest conversation I'm ever gonna have to have in my life. Um, I, I don't— like, I can't marry you, I can't do this, and like, I, I don't think I love you anymore. Like, coming from that approach, and I was just like, you cheated on me. Like, I just knew then. I just fucking knew. That was one of the times I just fucking knew, because like, I was like, that you were planning on marrying All signs pointed to— so even if you doubted and even if you didn't love me, which we know he didn't love me because if you can cheat on someone, you don't love them. He did not love himself. I'm sure he still doesn't. But regardless, like, no, there was no love there. But you were fully planning on marrying me. Like, you would not have deposited my parents' money. You wouldn't have called me and asked me to add someone to the guest list. Like, this happened. You cheated. And he said, don't make it about that. Started to, like, cry and get very upset. Would hesitate to go into detail for me. He knew it was over. He had packed a suitcase and told me that he had spent like the past hour petting my cat's belly, and that because, you know, she was his cat too, and that he knew this was it and it was over. And like, so he's the one who broke it off, but he knew there was no way I was staying with him. And I remember laughing. I laughed. I didn't cry till much, much later that night. I, I was just like, this is hilarious. Um, one of my friends in the new state that like we moved to and everything, like she did tell me, she was like, literally like the week before they had all stayed up very late partying and I wasn't there. And apparently they were like walking through the gym in her building or something, and he had just— he was like very upset and very sad, and he was just like, I need to be better for Sarah. And that conversation had happened. So obviously there was something missing for him and he was sad, but he was telling me that he was having work anxiety. I didn't— I always kind of felt like he had this depressed side to him, so I, I can't say that like I knew. If anything, I thought like it was me and like what had happened with like me being attracted to someone else. Like, I didn't think that he was going to do that, so he blindsided me in that way. But here we go with the moment that I, I fucking knew, and it actually has nothing to do with him. Um, the moment he told me— now we know that like I knew deep down he wasn't the one for me because I had already planned out in my head, I don't know when, but that if things didn't work out between me and him, I was gonna go live in Charleston. I just had it planned. My whole family was down there, my sister is down there, her now wife, but at that time they were just, you know, living together. They're down there. My best family friend Mary's down there, and my parents are down there. Everyone's down there. I have always said if something happens, I'm just going to Charleston. I love it there. The pandemic happens, like, I can work from anywhere, which is true. Um, in the moment he told me, like, I cheated on you, I don't love you, I just thought you were going to New Jersey. Like, you're going to Jersey. It wasn't even a question. Like, it wasn't Jersey necessarily, because I remember looking at apartments in, like, Connecticut where my best friend lives, and, like, like, other areas around Jersey. But I just knew I was going wrong. Like, and there was— I knew it the way that, like, I know that, like, Nick is the one for me. Like, I knew it in a way that's like, it didn't even feel like a moment or a click. It just felt like it's happening.

Yeah.

Like, I can't explain it, but that is like the biggest weird thing that happened.

Oh my God. In those moments, it's like you almost— you kind of knew he was a shitbag all along, that he wasn't a good person.

No.

But it's still like heart-wrenching to think that you were going to in 3 months, you know, make vows to spend your life with someone who, you know, you trusted and had committed so many years to. Even if the normal was not healthy, it was still your normal and comfort. And like, so even though it was probably freeing in a way, right, it was still everything else along with it. And yeah. You know, I am like, I was not expecting to do this, but I come from the other end. It'll probably make me cry. But I was married previously and I got married super young. We had both— we were both raised Mormon. And so when you're raised Mormon, you know, you're taught that like, you know, your ultimate goal is to get married in the temple and be married and have children, especially as a woman. Like, that's literally my only— my only— the only reason why, you know, God put me here on this earth is, is for that. And so when I, um, when I was 18— and unlike, like, our mothers are completely opposite— my mom never let me make a choice for myself. So I like never knew what making a choice was even. Um, and so when I was 18, of course I had never been like told what alcohol could potentially do to you. And I went from like never, you know, touching alcohol to touching alcohol. And anyways, I went through a sexual assault, and my mom was very like, well, the next step is essentially like you like repenting because, you know, sex is a sin next to murder. And so you, you know, having this happen to you, you have to go to the bishop, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these things with the religion. And I got disfellowshipped at 18 years old where basically the bishop was like, God has to now, you know, decide what's best for you. And he's telling us that you need to be disfellowshipped. And I was like, oh shit, yeah, God's like pissed at me for, for drinking. So anyways, I ended up kind of like going wild a little bit in college. Like, I truly— have you ever seen Vampire Diaries? And, you know, when they talk about like when Stefan just switched it off and he was like able to eat people and whatever.

I've only seen like a few episodes, but I trust that that's what happened.

So they talk about it just being like a switch where you literally are just like, nope, not feeling that. And I feel like I did that. Like, once all of this happened, when I was 18, I was just like, nope, don't want to feel anything again. And I don't even think that I like cried or even grieved the fact that like I had waited my whole life to like have sex with my husband and then it was taken from me. And then it was almost like my fault because I had been drinking. Like, I just kind of was like, whatever, I'm just not going to feel it. I was like, won't do it. And so sex to me became sex and nothing more than that. It was like this forbidden thing that was now like I had waited so long and now it was taken and now I'm just going to have it whenever and with whoever I feel like. And didn't know anything about like STDs or condoms, like because we were just never taught about that. It was always just like abstinence, right? Just don't even think about it and then you won't have to worry.

Yeah, it's like that is not going to fly. Like telling everyone abstinence, like with all the other hormonal—

Yeah, I'm like, especially as a hormonal teenager, like, absolutely not. Oh my God. I— my— one of my— like, he was my second boyfriend. I will never fucking forget. But we were like laying down together. We were like— that was already not okay. Like, never lay horizontal past 10 PM or just like ever. And I remember he like was— I don't even know what he was doing, but he was like in between my legs and like breathing like on my upper thighs. And I was probably like having an orgasm. It felt so good. Like, I have Right? I'm like, I'm 17 years old. I have no clue what's happening down there. And I was like, this feels great. But at the same time, I was like, this is so awful. Like, yeah. And it wasn't guilt, it was shame. Like, you're a bad human for doing this. So anyway, long story short, I end up meeting and falling in love with a guy who had also grown up Mormon, and he had kind of like stepped away from the church for a little bit as well. So it felt very like kismet to me and be like, we both feel like we need to get married in the temple and like live this Mormon like. So we got married, and, um, I mean, we had our baby, and within— and you're also just kind of taught to like pray things away. Like, as long as you're praying and reading your scriptures, like, honestly, you shouldn't be straying. Like, yeah, that's not a thing. And if you are, like, yikes for you, you know? And like, you're just not praying hard enough. And I remember like a couple years into our marriage or even like a year and a half, I was like, okay, this is not me like this. I knew that probably when I was like, you know, 16 and 17 and would always— I was always considered like the wild one in my class. I don't know how Mormons can necessarily be wild. I wasn't fucking doing anything. I was letting my boyfriend breathe in between my legs once. And like, I feel like I knew then, but I just didn't know what else was out there. Like, I had never been introduced to anything else. And so So I got that feeling again where I was like, this is not me. Like, my life doesn't— like, it's not successful by just being married and being a mom. Like, there's more for me. Um, and I felt guilty about it. I felt like, why am I feeling this way? Like, I've been taught my whole life that this is what I was meant for. Like, this is— I'm literally doing the thing and I still don't feel good. And he was traveling a bunch and I felt like I was using my voice and saying, I— when I got married, I needed— like, I thought you would be here with me. Like, I wanted a life, like, with a partner and not, like, a single mom almost. And everyone just kept, like, being like, it's fine, like, you just sacrifice now, like, later you will be happy. And I'm like, but I'm not happy now. And honestly, like, A lot of it was probably from me not, you know, working through the sexual assault. And like, honestly, going from religion to not religion to back to religion so quickly and just like not thinking about it or not actually working through it, just going to— I mean, Mormon bishops like don't have a degree. Like, they're just like the fucking dentist down the street who's like giving you advice. So I'm just like you know, when you're confessing your sins or getting advice, it's from anybody. It's from your neighbor, your uncle, or whatever. And so even though I had worked through it via church, I hadn't worked through it like I hadn't seen a therapist. And so anyway, whatever, I felt like I was using my voice to say what I needed and like nothing was changing. And so I was like, well, you know what, I'm just gonna like live my life. I see you whenever you're home. And like even then it was almost like he needed to from being gone. So he would like want to do his own thing and like relax. And I was 23 and not wanting to relax. I was like, let's go out and let's do things. And so anyway, I ended up in situations where I was like, I am really loving attention from other people. And just like you, I came forward and I was like, I'm spending a lot of time like with my trainer at the gym because he like tells me how cool I am. Like same thing, right? Like I was like, and I don't get it. Like, I'm confused. I don't understand. And like, same thing. It was just like, well, just like, we just need to sacrifice for a few more years. Like, that's it. And I was just like, I didn't know what else to do. And at one point I had like made this emotional connection with someone and it blew up. And I was always super straightforward, like, hey, I'm talking to this guy. And I think a little bit of me was doing that. Because I wanted him to fight more. Yeah, fight for me. And it never really happened until it did kind of blow up, and then both parties were like, yikes, you know, we're both married, like, this isn't appropriate. And, um, honestly, for me too though, I feel like because I lived in a, in a church with no boundaries, in the sense of like they make you feel like there's no boundaries, but then they make you tell everything about your life, that I feel like those relationships and connections that I are so important to me. So like even an emotional connection with someone doesn't need— it doesn't feel sexual to me. Like it's very important to me to have people to talk to, feel relatable, feel like I can, you know, converse. And I didn't have that at the time. So anyway, this whole thing blows up and I'm like, maybe we should just like get divorced. I don't know. Like, I, I don't know what's the best. And he was like, no, I don't think so. We made like this huge move and we actually moved back home to Arizona. That's where I was from. And we were like, let's just try here. And like he got a different job. And I know that that's big, right? Like he moved from working at like a big-time job to now, you know, putting our relationship first. And like we, we, you know, stayed connected a little bit. But I think that it was more so like, I don't think we're actually the right people for each other. Like I am a very bold, very like forward and outgoing and extrovert. And, um, I had kind of like muted that when I was LDS and when I was, you know, married to him. And I was just like, I think I was so tired of doing that all the time that I kind of was just like, you know what, I just feel like so out of this. Like, I just, just out. And we would have these conversations questions all the time. And one time I was like, what will it take for you to like take me seriously? Like, what's it going to take? And he was like, I don't know, cheating on me. And I was like, done. Like, I'll do it. And like, I don't— and I don't think that he thought that I would, but then I was just— and that sounds so awful. And I—

but you weren't happy and you— and he wasn't acknowledging it at all.

But what sucks though is that like like listening to you tell your story too. I'm just like, it's not just you, right? Like, it's not just me, you know, deciding to fuck somebody else. It's like, what does that now feel to him? Like, he feels not good enough, not seen. Like, and that doesn't just translate over to like us ending our relationship. It now translates over to any relationship he's now going to be in. Right? So like, and of course I didn't give a shit then when I was 23, 24. Like, I was just like, bummer. And I was still kind of in that state of like, I didn't fucking want to feel it. I didn't want to feel sad. I was just kind of like, you know, like, I was like, I don't, you know, like, I'm sorry, not sorry though. And we had a 2-and-a-half-year-old baby, you know, that we now had to like— we split, and now she's being co-parented. And that first year was so hard. And I was again just so reckless. Like, I was just like, don't care about anyone or anyone's feelings. Because I think for so long in the church, I was— that's all I was worried about was everybody else's feelings. That finally I was just like, I don't want to have to think about how my actions are going to impact you. Like, I just don't want to. And it wasn't until later, like a whole year later, so that first year of the divorce was dark and I was so sad, but I would just turn it off. I would like bawl my way to work and then I would like pull up and be like, okay, like everything, you know, like I have to work now. And it was just very, um, I tried to not be emotional about it. And then it wasn't until later when I was working with a hypnotherapist actually that like things started to like, I was able to actually feel them and I would just like sob and and sob and just about fucking anything, like things that had happened when I was 12, like just crazy shit that I was like, I've been holding onto a lot. But what will sometimes still get me is that I look back and I'm like, that's not who I am. Like, I am not a person that hurts other people intentionally. But I did do that. Like, I did do it, you know? And so it's so hard sometimes to look at like that shadow part and that dark side of yourself that I'm like, like, I fucked somebody once. Like, I literally fucked him over. Like, I hurt him. I betrayed his trust. I was just like so blatantly, like, you know, rude that I'm like, that's the hard part now, is that saying sorry like doesn't do anything. And like, you know, our child now is 12, so it's been 10 years, but it still is like, I will think back sometimes to that and be I'm like, oh my God, like, yikes. And not even like for myself, like, yeah, I was going through some shit, but I affected a lot of people. And I— especially him, right? Like, he then had to navigate relationships after me and like have all of that, you know.

I have— I feel like I have so much to say now that I know all this about you. But like, first of all, you experienced a trauma within a trauma. Like, it's already traumatic that you were going through having to be tied to the church and being told what to do. I mean, you literally had a belief system installed in your head that you didn't ask for. And then within that, the sexual assault, that's like a completely different trauma to grieve. Like, I went through somatic experiencing therapy, and that helped me the most. It actually helped me figure out the reason why I was reacting to Nick's love in a very like, not good, not accepting way. And, you know, obviously it went back to, like, my ex. But, um, I mean, you had not grieved any of that, and you lived out— I, I would say mine was like a year where I lived out the same exact thing you did. Like, that's our commonality. We both were being, in a sense, manipulated. Like, emotional abuse— what someone does when they're emotionally abusing, emotionally abusing you is manipulating you, essentially. And you were kind of being manipulated too by like the church and your family and what they were teaching you was right. And that's like our commonality here. And I also acted out within the year when I got back to New Jersey. I— oh my God, I did horrible things that now I look at and I'm like, you— what were you doing? Like, that's not you. That's not who you are. I hurt people from getting too drunk. I like— you know, I definitely depended on alcohol to make me feel happy because I wasn't happy. And this is all before I really went through the somatic experiencing therapy. And like, I was still in therapy, but I realized that like my standard therapist wasn't going to cut it because you really— for deep trauma, like you have to do a different type of therapy. Like, it takes deeper work. What I realized after the somatic experiencing therapy and in writing about my experience now is just that what's crazy and what really sucks even more is even after going through the therapy and like acknowledging what happened to us, like you would think that it's just we can have this conversation and be like, well, this happened to you, which is why you did XYZ. This happened to me, which is why I did XYZ. But there's so much more work on top of that. It's why did I stay in the abusive situation? Why? And like, there's— that's even deeper to unpack. So like And I'm still, like, working on that. So that's so scary. But, like, you are responsible in a sense for your own abuse. And that is, like, what really is, like, a mindfuck to me and what I've been dealing with, you know? But, I mean, you have to give yourself grace. Like, I did those same things. I acted out too when I got back here. And, like, oh my God, like, I think about, like, walking down the street. Like, I can say— I haven't said this to anyone, like, out there yet. I told my family this. But, like, I literally— and this And I have nothing against anyone who uses a vape, like whatsoever. But it is just so not me. And I like got one during that time and I just remember like being drunk and like walking down the streets and just being like, I'm so happy. Like, by the way, it was a zero nicotine vape. It was doing nothing. I had anxiety and I was probably just like, this breathing thing feels great, you know? Like, and it's just like the way I was acting was so not me. And I definitely was in situations too in dating that I probably was unsafe. And thank God nothing happened. But like, there's no doubt that I could have been close to something happening. That's then yet another trauma that I have to unpack. Like, you really experience the trauma within a trauma thing, you know?

I've always been this way, is that I like, I've never blamed— maybe my brother, right? I always used to blame my brother. Father if something happened. But he's the only person I've ever blamed for anything. Other than that, I'm like, oh yeah, it was like 100% me. And so for years, I mean, and I still probably a little bit of it, like I still probably hold that where I'm like, well, we probably, we may have still been married if I wouldn't have been the one that was like constantly questioning, constantly coming up with like, why do I feel this way? Why is this happening? You know, because I'm like, sometimes Sometimes, like, it probably was, you know, it felt safer to not, but I just couldn't not. Like, I had to. Um, and even once I cheated, like, it had been because I, I went to like a Christmas party of a friend's and I came back and it was like 2 days. And I was like, like when you were talking about how your ex was acting, I'm like, yeah, I was kind of acting very similar because I was very sick. And I was like, this isn't just because to me, sex was just sex. Like, it didn't— it wasn't an emotional bond. I had literally gone from like, this is just like an act, to I'm just doing an act again. And I know that this act is hurtful, so I'm gonna do it because that's, you know, essentially what you said would hurt you enough to be done, which is like so fucked up. But anyway, I'm just like— I remember being like, okay, like, I did this. And I was still kind of like not feeling, you know, sad really until, like I said, later. But I think that if anything, like, what I still hold is like, oh my God, like, making someone feel those feelings. Yeah. But also kind of like detaching from— because I think a lot of the time, like, as someone who wants people to feel really good and happy, that like, I, you know, I'm not in charge anymore of like how he still feels, right? Like, you know, like I did hurt him and it was very hard. But I'm like, I think too, I'm like, I grew up in a crazy fucking house and a lot of hurt was happened. But like, I don't blame my mom or my dad. Like, I'm just like, my dad had an illness. Like, that's a bummer. I will now no longer like have him in my life. But that's different than me being like, he did this and now I live this way because of it. Like, there's just— there's none of that. And it took me, you know, a few years to kind of, you know, figure that out. And when I was, you know, 26 and 27, I was like, I am tired of my bullshit. Like, I am an honest, transparent, kind, loving person. Why am I acting like a total dick? Like, this is so crazy. But really, I And I think that that helps people to look at people and like truly see them for like, they're probably hurting. It's helped me in work. It's helped me with so many different things because I'm like, I've been a shitbag before. Like I have been in a dark place where I was like doing things that were hurtful and it was because I was hurting is not a fucking excuse. But I decided that I was not gonna do that anymore. I wasn't gonna be there anymore. And so it's like I can look at it and witness it it, but also be like, it's not an excuse, you still can't like treat me like that. But then it's my responsibility to then like have a boundary. So I do think that like all of that was so many lessons that I would have never fucking learned ever. Like, how— when else are you gonna learn like those very specific hard type of lessons without going through through crazy shit, you know? Or even like you finding your partner now, like you probably have like a different perspective. You look for different things, you see things differently, you feel them differently. So now you are able to be like, okay, I know that this is right now because I've been through all of this.

Yeah. And I think like, I mean, you haven't lived if you haven't learned hard lessons. So like you have to again like give yourself grace because because, you know, you, you have more of an understanding now of why you did what you did. But also, like, just to be clear, you— it's not like you, like, randomly did what you did on a whim. Like, you were literally, like, screaming for help. You didn't want to be in that relationship. And, like, you made it known. And even if it wasn't to him on certain days, it was to, you know, the people who you were talking to, your family. Like, you did— it was almost like you wanted to feel like you were looking for ways to feel because you're your feelings had been suppressed, what you thought didn't matter for so long. So you probably were like going through that when it happened. And I, I don't want to say like that's an excuse. It's just— it's not an excuse, it's a message that like you need to figure your shit out and look yourself in the mirror. And that is what you did and what you're doing. And now the fact that you like learned that lesson, the fact that I learned my lesson, like literally impacts the way we live our lives every single day as better people. So It's, it's, it's not like it's healthy. We might have gone through unhealthy things during the process, but like, it is like, you know, I'd rather have lived than not gone through any of that because we'd be so much more naive as people, you know?

Yeah.

It's— it feels really good to like have this conversation with another woman and to be sitting across from someone who like also has been through it. It would suck if I was the person who hadn't been through it because, like, I wouldn't know as much. Is that what I'm saying? Like, I'm glad. I'm, like, very, very glad for it. But it is funny because I remember, like, one of the last things, like, when my ex and I, like, after we broke up, we barely talked. I tried not to talk at all, but we did have to go through— well, he— I made him, like, you know, call off the wedding, essentially. So there were some emails that went back and forth. And I think the last last one that he sent to me just said, like, one, maybe one day you'll thank me, in the sense of, like, you know, you know, we weren't right for each other kind of thing. And it's just so funny because, like, now that I've done the healing work that I've done— I'm not saying I'm done, but I, I thank myself. Like, I thank myself for leaving when I left, going through what I went through to teach myself the lesson. Like, I thank myself for all of it. So So that is what I think means the most to me. But yeah, like, definitely would not— if I hadn't done that work and learned that lesson, would not have made myself open to Nick. And I also— I wasn't making myself— like, every bone in my body when I first met him and he was giving me the love he was giving me, didn't— like, my body, my physical body was saying, no, you don't deserve this. This is not what love is. Because for the last 8 years, it hadn't been. And I was just getting, like, almost like an icky feeling about it. Like, but something in me, like, it must have been my heart or my mind or a combination of the two, or just the work I had done speaking out was just like, there is a reason why, like, you need to open yourself. And then that's when I did the somatic experiencing therapy. And I, like, there were moments when there was one specific breakthrough moment where somatic experiencing therapy is all about talking about where in your body you're feeling a feeling. So like, you might go back, you might start with like going back to a moment that happened, and then you close your eyes and you kind of talk about where are you feeling the tightness? Is it in your chest? Is it in your belly? Like, it's all about that. And there was— we were kind of dissecting the reason why I reacted to like Nick's incredible love and giving ness, like, in a moment. And she asked me— the therapist asked me, like, well, what would your ex have done? Or what would you have expected from your ex? And we realized that that icky feeling I would get was literally the exact moments where in that past relationship he would have put me down. He would have told me I was not good enough or scoffed at me or made fun of me. And like, there was such a realization in that moment that those moments of you feeling icky, that's why. Because you're going back to that place and your body and your physical self is saying no, like, that's not right. That's not what— this is not the way we've been doing it. Like, what the fuck?

Go away.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I just want to say that I love that you were like, I I am proud of myself. It reminds me of that Snoop Dogg speech, right, where he's like, I'm fake myself. Um, but it's so true. And like, I sometimes feel that way when it comes to— like, my mom is 62, has been in the religion her whole life, is a very devout member. And she told me recently, because she knows how I feel about the church and that I think it's cult and crazy and I want to save everybody that's in it, and she's like, I know nothing else, and like, for me to leave would be like— she couldn't even identify with herself if she left, right? Yeah. And I'm like, oh yeah, I— that's totally true. But to me, I'm like, I couldn't not— like, there was nothing inside of my body that was like— if— like, I fucking knew it was safer to stay in. Of course it's safer to stay in. Then you don't you have to actually face who you are on the other side of it and like all of the other things. So of course it feels safer. And like you lose things, you lose a community, you lose your entire belief system, you lose— sometimes people lose family, right? And I'm just like, even with all of that at stake, I was like, and I will claw myself out of this. I will probably burn like things on the way up, but like it was just never an option to not do And so sometimes it's hard to look at her because, I mean, you have this love for your mother that I'm just like, that's kind of saddening to me a little bit to see this woman who has taught me some other really great lessons choose to stay in comfortability instead of the ladder. And so that's been something more recently that I'm I had never given myself credit really, right? It was always just like, you know, well, I did this and then it was like that. And it wasn't until, yeah, the last couple of years where people were like, that's really brave. And I was like, is it? Like, I don't look at it that way. I looked at it as like a fucking must. Like it was like a non-negotiable. It just was like, you have to do it, you're doing it. And yeah, I think that it was my poor husband now. I'm like, when you've been with someone and in such like a safe relationship, like, I've been able to actually grieve and like actually feel things. And so I'm like, I am a very emotional person, and I think that for so long I had just kind of like hidden it away, you know? And now I don't. And so there's lots of emotions in this house. And also when you have children, there's a lot of emotions because children don't know how to regulate. And so I'm like, okay, Okay, everyone, everyone's having a lot of emotions and it's been like a totally wild experience to be like, you know, almost like sometimes I'll revert back to like how I was as a child in certain situations and I'm like, okay, we have to regulate you and a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old. And now with Lily almost being a teenager and those are hormones in itself that I'm just like, Kurt is just over here like dealing with everyone. Emotions, holding them. And we're so thankful for that.

I mean, I'm proud of you. And just talking about like your mom, and I wonder this too, and this is kind of like opening a whole other can of worms, but like, I do wonder if it's a generational thing and if it's because of people like you that other people are finding it to be easier to leave, for example. And I'm also wondering if that's because of social media. And the way we are showing what we're doing in the world now. Because like, I even think of like generational— like someone can be accepting, but if they're older, they may still say like a gay slur and not realize it, for example. Like, I wonder if like, you know, like use the word woke or whatever, like if it's because like we— like you, for example, were kind of like the exception where like there was no one else your age clawing their out. You just knew and like you did it. But because you did it and because like social media is a thing and you share your story everywhere, maybe other people are seeing that. And that's why like our world is progressing. So I wonder that too. And yeah, I mean, like my sister's gay and I always wonder that about, you know, for example, my grandma, like my grandma, she has passed away. And I mean, she had a horrible relationship with my mom and like there's so much there. But Rachel never really— I mean, she was going through dementia, but my sister never really like told her. And I always wonder like, what would she have understood or not understood about it? Because I think that there is— like, it's definitely a generational thing.

Totally. Well, and just like you, like you said at the beginning of this episode, that like the reason, one of the main reasons why you share your story is to, you know, be like a voice for other women and validate their experiences. And I was just asked that question because I was on a show that widely reached. It was like all about cults, so it had a very wide reach for people who had, you know, left a religion. And a lot of those people were LDS because the host was also former LDS. And like through all of this, of course, you know, like comments come through and people reach out and it's wild. And like through all of that someone said, like, you have to figure out, like, moving forward and just, like, you know, your baseline of, like, why are you doing this? Is it, like, healing for you? And of course, I feel like there's a multitude, but for me, it truly is like, oh my gosh, I just want someone to listen who, like, might have been feeling those same ways and even just, like, start something or, like, plant a seed of, like, oh, this isn't normal. Just like you, right? Like, you might not notice or realize because you're the one in the situation. And so me being able to even just share like little bits of my story or how, you know, that kind of helped form a certain belief for a while, that people will find some sort of validation. And it's so wild because I feel— and someone asked me this question, like, when you get people who outreach to you after they've listened to an episode or something or read your story, right? Like, when you get people who reach out to you, what's the main thing? Like, what's the common denominator?

And I was like, it's always thanking me, right?

Like, totally, totally, yes. And it's always like courage or like some sort of like, wow, like you got out of this relationship or this religion, or you left a job when you like didn't think there was another way. And so I truly think, like, that's what connects me to people, is like hearing their story. And even if I've never experienced something like it, I can relate it to something I— like a feeling I've had too, like a feeling of being betrayed, a feeling of feeling like I don't have a voice, like whatever it is. And you can find that, like, commonality, and then they just like immediately— yeah, it validates you, period. Like, it doesn't matter if you haven't experienced that exact same thing. It's just like that emotion that we— and so many people are like, especially in business, right? Like, you can't operate on emotions. And I'm like, human beings operate on emotions. We all do. All we all do in business and in our personal lives. Like, yeah, it's just is what it is. And so anyway, whether it's work or personal, whatever it is, it's like when we hit those emotions and connect with people on an emotional level, it's like this whole different relationship or this whole different way of being able to be seen and validated. And not just for me, but to also be like, are you saying the same thing over and over? Like, do you feel like your voice isn't heard? Like, this is kind of what it could look like. And yeah, it's like a huge driver, probably the same way it is for you.

Just listening to you just talk about that. Like, for me, I think it's most impactful and I feel the most appreciative when I know that the person who reached out to me, because like normally it's them like thanking me for being brave. And usually when someone does thank me for being brave, for sharing my story, whatever it was that I shared, like I think, oh, this person must have gone through that, right? But then I think about like, and they can relate to it and that's why they're thanking me. But then I think about how like there are sometimes people, and this is when I'm most appreciative, who I don't think went went through it, but they just appreciate the fact that I had the bravery to talk about it. And that strikes me the most because when I read someone else's story or when I hear someone else's story, I always have— if I haven't gone through it, I always think to myself, if I, I want to like send this person my love and I want to like show my appreciation, but I always have a hold back of like, what is it that I should say? Because I don't want to offend and I don't want make it seem like I know better or I know equally because I haven't been through this, right? Like, I mean, that, like, it's the difference between, like, sympathy and empathy. And I feel like when I know that someone, like, made it over that hump of, like, what should I say because I haven't been through this? And they said it to me anyway, it really must have, like, struck them and it must have helped them in some way, even if they haven't gone through the exact same thing. And, like, that is literally— I recently did like a journaling exercise on the press trip I was on. And like, that is like what makes me feel— the question was like, what makes you feel successful? And like, what makes me feel successful is like really letting other people have a platform. But just connecting with people in general is what makes me feel best. So like, that is definitely what, what sticks with me. And it's what keeps me like writing and sharing my story. And it's like, before I decided to like come on this podcast and talk about it and start writing about it, I'm writing about it for, for work. Like, I felt almost like it was like part of me that like, why would I not share this? It's my story, it's part of me, and it's only gonna help people. So it's like, you have to, of course you do, you know?

Yeah, no, I absolutely, absolutely love that. I've had times before where I've been like, because it's not just my story, or there's people in that story, you know, like especially my ex. Or, you know, friends that I have had hurt or something. And so it would almost like, if there was ever a time it would freeze me up, it was then, like, to be like, this isn't just my story. So I want to make sure that I never, like, villainize or make it seem like I— you know, it, like, took me a while to be like, how do I just state facts and just keep it, like, neutral? But now I feel like, because I've shared so so much and so often. Sometimes people will be like, she's back in her shutting her emotions off, she's just able to like say it without— and I'm like, Jesus Christ, I don't want to say you're bawling on the fucking episode. Like, I have to like have some composure, but also like making it to where it's like, these are just like the things that happened. But it would be very interesting, and it's still like something I would love, is to like have a conversation in like several years with him and almost be like, tell me your side, you know, tell me your story. But I know that I would cry the whole time, probably. But like, to me, that's like important. And especially even though I'm sure he's like, that is not important to me, but, um, to me, kind of like, I want, I want him to also have a platform to say like, this is how it hurt, or this is how I remember it, and this is what I remember saying, what you, you know, said to me. And so I'm just like, to me, it's always important that I am just one side of the story. Um, always, always. But it never fucking stops me, you know? Like, it'll like make me be like, okay, be conscious of this. Okay, make, you know, like, make sure that you're saying it with intention. Um, don't just like, you know, don't revert back to your 25-year-old self. But Yeah, it's, it's taught me and also like how to listen and listen with like complete neutrality. Like, I don't think that there's ever a time that I've like listened to a story and gone somewhere. I'm just like, okay, like, I just, it's like given me this like open heart to be like, I have never, yeah, experienced that, but I can feel it. Like, I can feel you telling me and I like see you and I hear you. I don't know, it's just this like massive love for anyone who, yeah, like who has the bravery to just tell their story and to tell it very firmly. Like there's something very attractive about it.

Yeah. And I will say like one more thing on your situation. Like, I don't think you should ever feel like there's unfinished business if you don't ever have that conversation because you are working on yourself. And doing the work by listening to everyone else's stories that you have on the podcast and just by listening with that neutrality, like, you are making up for it and you are still, you know, doing work that shows that you understand what you did was wrong and you understand that you need to figure out why you did it. And like every day you're making up for it. So yeah, I think—

Thank you.

Thank you.

I think when it's like you, you know, like when it's you going through it, it's like, I'm the first one to like drag myself through the fucking desert to be like, you still need to learn in the heat. Um, but yeah, I'm just— I'm so glad that you came on because I remember my first podcast episode where someone asked me to talk about my divorce and like what it was like getting married at 21, and then what— and like in the middle of the podcast, you know, she's So what, like, what was the actual reason that caused it? And I was like, and then that was my very first time that I was like, I ended up cheating, but I did not go into detail at all. Like, it was basically like, this happened, this resulted in the divorce, and it was very kind of like this and that. And afterwards I remember being like, I wasn't transparent enough. I didn't say enough. And one of my friends was like, listen, like, not— this was your first time, like, telling the story openly on a podcast. That, like, you have no idea where, like, the audience is in their life, where they're at. And, like, you don't owe it to anybody to go into any detail at all. And I was just like, I don't. Like, I, I just assumed that I should tell every single detail. And it was just kind of one of those moments, you know, early on when I started sharing my story, where I was like, oh, I guess that that's okay, that I can, like, choose to say what I want to say. And it doesn't I'm lying. It just means that I'm like choosing what to say in this moment specifically. And yeah, it really like was weird for me at first though, because I felt like, oh my God, I didn't tell every detail of this story, you know.

But isn't it cool? Like, it's so cool that you've grown enough. Like, I don't think it's me. I think it's the fact that you've sat and listened to so many people's stories and you've made this not just a hobby, but something that like you actually love that has allowed you to now be this comfortable talking about those details. Details like that just show like it speaks to your growth. So it's kind of cool to look back and be like, yeah.

Oh yeah, I used to get so weirded out telling my story. So yeah, I'm just thinking back to that time and just like, I'm so glad that you came on and were just so open how you wanted to be open, not because you felt like you had to say certain things. And yeah, just so appreciative. And again, That's one reason why I started this podcast was I wanted other people to be able to come on and just tell a story, just any story. And it was so funny. I started it, it's like ebbed and flowed of the types of guests, but it's always kind of been the same thing where I was just like, what is heavy on your heart? What's the time where you just knew something that you like wished other people knew? And it's been such an array of topics, but that's again, like something that just connects us. So when I came across your writing, I felt that. And like, it doesn't— you know, there's certain writers where you like read their shit because you're like, I love them.

Yeah.

And that you're like one of those people, whereas like, not saying that I don't love all writers, but there are certain ones that just like draw you in a certain way. And you're— I don't know, there was just something about you. So I'm just so excited that you came on and that we got to like learn about each other just a little bit more. Same.

And I'm excited to continue our relationship and keep like doing shit together. And like meeting in real life eventually. And yes, I'm so happy I came on. So thank you.