Holly the Molly

All those things kind of led me— I was working in a call center. I was a supervisor after I finished BYU. And a lot of people, you have an art degree and they're like, "What are you going to do with that?" And you're like, "I don't know. I'll work at this call center because I can act like I care and I give a damn on the phone." Welcome to my podcast, The Girl with the Red Door.

I'm Kristjana Hillberg, your main host. Host. You'll get to hear from people who divulge real and raw experiences on all different topics. I don't like to bullshit, so here we go. Good morning, happy Monday. I am so glad that you're back, or if you're new, welcome. I'm so glad that you are finally here. Today's guest Kristjana Hillberg is someone that I've known for years and years. We grew up in the same town in northern Arizona. And I think, I mean, I've told you guys before, that's one reason why I started the podcast was to connect and be able to be that catalyst for people to share their stories and their journeys. I think it's so important that we connect with each other It's just a nice reminder that we're all going through something. We're all going through shit. And we can still connect and meet at the same, you know, at the same level. We can all always find that common ground. So I hope you enjoy today's episode as I chat with Holly about all the things and what life has brought her these last few years.

So after I graduated, I of course, you know, went to EAC for a while and then transferred to the Big Y. Oh yeah, yeah. So I went to BYU. I was actually only there for like a semester and I hated it.

What did you— what was so crappy about it?

Um, well, like, so I, I post about it a lot now, but like back then I was really kind of quiet about it because, you know, I have, um, polycystic ovarian syndrome.

Oh yeah, okay.

Yeah. And so, um, I like right before I went to— because I spent a summer in Alaska before I went to BYU. So before I went to Alaska, I was like, oh, gotta go see my ob-gyn, you know? Yeah, before I go to the last frontier. Um, so I went and I was having like these pains, and like my mom had, um, endometriosis when she was like in her 40s. And so this doctor who had like the worst bedside manner ever was like, oh, on top of having PCOS, you probably have endometriosis. And I was like, what? And then he was like, you know, that causes pain every time you have, you know, your period and infertility. And I was like, what? And then he just like dropped that bomb and like left the room and was like, oh yeah, take off your pants and I'll come back and do your annual exam.

What the hell? I know. Like, this is like no big deal?

I know. It was horrible.

You're like, ah, this is like my livelihood. This is what I'm thinking about. Oh my gosh.

Okay. Yeah. And so then he comes back and I was like, trying to like, you know, get myself together and ask him. I'm like, well, you know, how do you know if I have this? He's like, well, there was only one way to officially know, and it's to have surgery. And he's like, but you're really young, you know, so you don't need to worry about that. And I'm just like, dude, you don't even know.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I may be young, but like, in my world that I was— in the world that I was at the time, like, I was, you know, like primed and ready to look for a husband.

And, you know, yeah, you're like, marriage is happening in the next year.

And I'm like, how is that gonna look on my dating resume if I can't have babies? So I'm just like, what the hell? And so anyways, he dropped that bomb and then I went to Alaska and then I went to BYU. And then when I was at BYU, I was just like super depressed about that. And I had a big, that was a big reason why I hated it there for that first semester. And so I ended actually, ended up dropping out. I had an academic scholarship too. I was just like so done. And I wasn't taking care of my PCOS because I was just so, I was like, why does it even matter? Like, why does it even matter? And, you know, and I was, you know, well, growing up, you know, LDS, like, you know, there's so much emphasis on like family and having babies and, you know, and then when you go to BYU, you're just like thrust into this world of, like a meat market.

Yeah, I've actually heard it described like that by multiple people. I never went to school in Utah, but yeah, I've heard so many people describe it like that because I like never cared before, to be perfectly frank.

Like when we were doing, you know, musicals in high school, I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. I don't really know if I want to be a mom. Like when I did Sound of Music, I was like, oh, I have to act with kids. Like I was not into it. You're like, oh, I was like, oh. But then when the opportunity is like potentially taken away from you, you like reevaluate what you want out of life and you're like, well, that's not fair. I didn't get to make that decision, you know? Oh, I bet. Yeah. So I was like super down about it. And then, um, yeah, I wasn't taking my medication that I should have been taking for my PCOS and I wasn't taking— I had really bad migraines at the time because my hormones were so out of whack. And so I wasn't taking my medicine for my migraines. It was really bad. And I was just ditching classes, which is so unlike me. I mean, you knew me high school, I was such like a goody-goody, like straight edge, you know. Yeah, valedictorian, student body president, you know what I mean? Like, that was so unlike me. And so then I also had this other like disappointment in myself that was making me feel even more depressed. And I was like, I just couldn't pull myself out of it. And I just, you know, I was talking to my mom on the phone and it was getting close to Christmas, and she was like, maybe you should just take a break. And it was like one of the best things she's ever said to me. And I was like, yeah, that's a good idea. So yeah, so I dropped out and I moved back home. So that kind of like forced me to be like, I need to get, I need to kick this depression to the curb because, you know, and thankfully for me, like, you know, like, I mean, I have good days and bad days, but I'm not like clinically depressed. Like I don't have to deal with that on a day-to-day basis, which I'm extremely grateful for. So thankfully for me, it was like something that I was like going through, you know, it was an experience. It wasn't a life, you know, journey. And so, yeah, I kind of just went back to Alaska for another summer and it kind of like turned things around for me. I met a guy that was younger than me that wasn't Mormon and he just was a good listener and we like connected and became really, really good friends. And I like attribute a lot of my you know, like coming back to life to him. And I was called— I'm like called my dark year. Whenever I talk about it to people, I'm like, that was my dark year when I moved back home and I dropped out of school. Um, but I've totally—

I know I have my dark years. Yeah. Uh, have you heard that song by John Mayer, Shadow Days?

No, but I should. That's—

yeah, you should totally listen to it. And he like describes it like, like we all have our shadow days. Um, and so yeah, I totally can relate to that. And I feel like most people can. Like, you just you just go through a dark time and totally, and we can all, we've all been there.

So yeah, well, and I'm like a big believer in nature too because I was in Alaska. Like, if you haven't been to Alaska, I, I think everyone should go in the summer.

It's like perfect, it's perfect time. Yeah, we're totally, we're going this summer. We leave like Memorial Day. Yes, we're going up to see, um, Kurt's sister, so we are so excited.

It's amazing. I worked in Denali, which is like 2 hours— I want to say it's either north or south, but it's by Fairbanks. So it's kind of like central Alaska. It's gorgeous. I'm like, there's like tons of animals and it just feels like it's been untouched by humans in a way, you know?

Yeah.

Makes it so like, I don't know, sacred and spiritual to me. And so I think that had a lot to do also with helping me kind of like snap back to reality. Like, what do you want, Holly? What do you really want? Out of life? What if this is the case? What do you need to do? And so basically, I was just like, I need to figure this out for myself, you know. And so I found a doctor in Flagstaff, and he was like, yeah, I'll do the surgery, we'll figure it out. And so I had the surgery done. Yeah, which is crazy because he was like— and this is— I'm a big advocate of, um, you know, like women speaking up for themselves, especially within the medical profession, because you kind of get dismissed a lot. And especially if you're an overweight woman, like, they're like, oh well, lose weight. And you're like, okay, that's not the answer to everything. Like, I'm sure that's a big factor, but like, help me figure out what the fuck is going on with my body so I can like be, you know, like a normal person and listen to what I'm saying. Don't just dismiss me because one, I'm a woman, and two, I'm overweight, you know?

Like, oh, completely. I was just talking to, um, One of my girlfriends, she was actually just on the podcast, she's a doula. And so we were talking about how like when you walk in and I mean, for anything, I would say when I was pregnant, when I wasn't pregnant, they just treat you like, well, this is the norm. So like this is what you should do. And so I can recall just thinking of growing up and being younger that I would just, I was almost like timid and scared. And so I love that you said that. Yes. Like I walk in now and I'm like, Nope, let's sit down, let's figure it out. This is my body, like not anybody else's. Yeah. So I love that. Totally. Be an advocate for yourself.

You know that, you know something's wrong. They're not in your body, you're in your body and you know what's normal and what's not normal. And so it's like, how can they be preaching to you and dismissing what you're saying if they're not you? You know, like— Exactly. I don't know. It just— So I was like, I got to figure this out. And I met an amazing doctor in Flagstaff and he was like, yeah, we'll do it. And he didn't care how old I was. He like could see that I was just like, I need to figure figure out what this pain is and whether it's not something that's going to potentially change the course of my future, you know. Like, I already have, you know—

what is the surgery like? What does that look like?

So it's a diagnostic laparoscopic surgery. So they like did an incision in my belly button and then, um, one like close to my pelvic bone. And then they go in with cameras basically, and they like fill you up with like CO2, like gas, like so your stomach's all distended. And like you're of course knocked out, and then they use the camera to look around and see like, hey, what's going on? Where's that pain coming from? And he did it. And actually, like, I didn't have any signs of endometriosis. Like, I didn't have it 'cause it's like basically spider-like tissue that mimics the lining of the endometrium and just starts wrapping around everything and causing all sorts of havoc. And for my mom, it was crazy. She had to have a complete hysterectomy 'cause it was wrapped around everything.

Oh my gosh. Okay.

And so we were like, we gotta see if this is going on. And yeah, he was like, I don't see any endometrial tissue, but he did find that my small intestine was somehow attached to my uterine wall. Like a piece of it was attached. And so the pain that I was experiencing was every time—

What's that?

Was that I was digesting food, that was the pain that I was experiencing. 'Cause my body was like, uh, tight corners. Wow.

So then did he give you like advice advice of how to— like, what happens from there? Sorry, I totally interrupted.

Oh no, you're good.

Ask the question.

Yeah, no, he just detached it, like, in the surgery. He was like, so we took care of that. And then we were like, where— how did that happen? And he thinks that, you know, because I have PCOS, he thought that maybe one of the cysts, um, on my ovaries— which actually, they're like, they're, they're kind of like cysts. It's, it's an interesting, um, syndrome, but like, they're actually follicles that haven't ovulated, so they look like cysts. And that's why they call it polycystic, so multiple cysts on your ovaries. But he thinks that maybe there was— where there was a cyst, like a fluid-filled sac in my ovaries from this condition, that maybe had burst and then created an adhesion, which are just like tissues that like connect different things to other things that they shouldn't, I guess.

Wow.

Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not a medical professional, but you know. So, so yeah, so he just detached it. And it's weird because you mostly get adhesions after having surgery, having like foreign objects in your body and stuff. Your body's like trying to like fix things and that actually creates adhesions. Um, and so I'm like, this was my first surgery ever, so that's why he attributed to possibly a cyst from my ovary. But yeah, so he did use it.

Were you relieved? Like, did you not have any pain anymore?

Yeah, I was like, wow, this is amazing. Like, so like, I still have some like, you know, issues with my PCOS of course, and like stomach issues that are related to, you know, other genetics or whatever, but it's not the pain, the stabbing pain that I was feeling, which is how most women with endometriosis describe their pain. So I see why that doctor just instantly went to endometriosis. Your mother had it, you're 50% more likely to have it the way you're describing the pain. But he was just so dismissive of me wanting to like, you know, confirm that. I'm like, how do we know for sure? Because infertility is like such a heavy word that you're saying to this like young, you know, 20-year-old that is going off to the meat market to find a spouse. So yeah, so then he, yeah, we took care of that. And then my journey in Alaska was amazing. And I decided, I thought for a second that I would move down to the Valley and just like work, but I was only here for, I think a couple of weeks. And I was like, I need to go back to school. Like that's just who I am. And so yeah, so I went back to BYU. They took me back.

Oh, you went back to BYU?

I did, yeah. I went back to BYU. I was there for, probably, I want to say like 3 and a half, 4 years, because it took me a while to get back into school. First, I just moved there and worked for a while. And I had every intention, actually, because I wasn't sure if it was just my depression that made the experience kind of shitty the first time around, or if it was like the environment. And so I thought, well, I'll go, I'll get back in with the school because that's my foot in. And then if I need to, I'll get residency and I can transfer to one of the other you know, state schools.

Yeah.

And okay, and it'll be fine. So either way, I was like, I've got to get over there. And I had a couple friends from, um, EAC. They're actually two sisters, um, that one I lived with at EAC, and she was like, we have a spot in our apartment, like, you should take it. And I'm like, okay. So I just like jump and took the chance. And I'm so glad I did because, um, her little sister is actually like now my like very, very best friend.

And like, oh, that's so fun.

Yeah, like that wouldn't have happened if I hadn't taken that like leap faith to go back. And so I ended up staying at BYU because I was in the theater department and it's a lot more open-minded and like liberal and like the professors there are really caring. Like I'm sure all the other professors in other majors are, but like they're so caring and considerate. And like, even though I don't like, I don't associate myself with being Mormon anymore. Like I, like I'm so glad that I went there. Like I don't ever regret going back to BYU. Because it's a good school. Like, there's funding because it's a private school, and in the theater world, I got so many more opportunities than I would have if I had gone to, like, a different college.

Yeah, it's such a great experience and meeting people from all over. I'm sure all over the world.

Like, oh yeah, I have friends from, like, Colombia and, like, Ecuador and, like, Peru, and just, like, all over the place.

And oh yeah, Yeah, so that's so, so worth it. But as a student attending BYU, do you have to— you have to comply with LDS standards?

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. Okay, so like, when you were going there, I mean, is that hard to like— were you not really like leaving the church at that point?

I was still pretty, I was still pretty, um, active at that point. I remember it being a little difficult though because it's so funny, when I was here in Arizona growing up in Arizona, I I feel like people thought like, you know, like Molly Mormon, like Holly's a Molly, you know, like that was like, that was kind of the vibe that I gave off because I had like older siblings that were a little more like rebellious and I was like, oh, like I'm going to be like super good, you know? And so I was Holly the Molly and I have no joke, same sense of humor. I moved to Utah and it was almost like I was the funny like Jack Mormon, you know?

Really? Yeah.

Like same sense of humor. Just like people are a lot more like reserved and conservative there, ironically. Like, I tell people now when I'm talking about Mormons, I'm like, so the Mormon Belt is Idaho, Utah, and Arizona, and that's the order in which it goes in terms of conservative to liberal. Like, so like Idaho, very conservative. Ironically, Utah is a little less conservative because— but I think that's because, um, Salt Lake City is actually like blossoming with all these like new businesses, and it's actually really like friendly LGBTQ community in Salt Lake City. Yeah, it was just right next to the the Mecca. Yeah. So I think that has definitely like brought some reality to the lovely state of Utah. And then Arizona is probably like, you know, the most, I think, like laid back and reserved, but also still very conservative. But that's what I tell people. And so going to Utah was like a jump to a more conservative state for me. And so I just remember being like, oh, was that inappropriate?

Which is hilarious because I never like looked at I never thought of you as being like, right, inappropriate ever. Like, you were always just like bubbly and funny and— oh my gosh, so that is— that just makes me laugh.

Yeah, like I would like say things, like I would give talks in church or like teach lessons in Relief Society, and I'd like say these like jokes that were like, I guess borderline inappropriate, and like people would like laugh, but they would like look at me like, like, oh, like we're not supposed to be laughing. So I kind of had this like reputation in my ward for being like the funny, like you know, girl that kind of like— like, I was like the Chelsea Handler of my world, you know what I mean? Like, pushing the boundaries, you know what I mean? For Mormons, right?

Gosh, that's hilarious. So all like, while you were here, while you were there, you like went to a singles ward and— yes, everything.

Oh my God, it was the worst.

How is that different? Well, did you ever attend a singles ward in Arizona or just in Utah?

Um, well, I attended singles ward when I was at EAC.

But how was it different?

Like, EAC is kind of like BYU junior, to be perfectly frank. And it's kind of like— it's a little more like everyone's kind of doing whatever they want, whereas like BYU, like, you're living in BYU housing and then all the people that you live with that are close, like, in your apartment complex, they go to your ward. So you're almost like in a commune of Mormonism, like, just like trapped with these people. And if you— if you're in like a shitty ward, like like, it's not going to be fun. And so thankfully, when I moved back, I moved into an awesome ward of like weirdos and like outcasts, I feel like, almost. Yeah, I'm like— became like a family to me. And so, you know, and like would laugh at my, you know, quote-unquote inappropriate jokes, um, and let me say my quote-unquote inappropriate jokes. Yeah, off the pulpit. So I like really found my people. And then I had the opportunity— I moved to a different ward like my last semester at BYU, or my last year at BYU, and I hated it. I liked my roommates, but it was just a totally different world. It was more of like an elite, like, um, people that came from a different demographic of like, like families, like they were wealthier families, they grew up wealthier, and so they were a little more like, uh, stepford-y.

Oh gosh.

So that was not fun for me, and I actually ended up moving back to my old ward after I graduated from BYU, and stayed for another year before grad school because I was just like, uh, I don't know what I'm doing right now. I have a decent job, but I'm gonna go back to the, the nice little missus who loved me before. Yeah, but it's so different though. Like, there's, there's no joke, like, made-up callings because there's so many people. Oh yeah, I had like a made-up calling, um, like as ward prayer co-chair, which based— which is weird, right? You're like, what is that? Like, that's not something we do in other wards or even other single wards, singles wards, but they do that at BYU because you're like living next to each other. And Sunday is not the day of rest. It's the day of like pretending to be someone you're not, in my opinion. You're going to church. And so like, at the end of the day, the ward prayer was just like another opportunity for a meat market social to try to like get you guys to, you know, hook up and find your spouse. Hey girls!

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So thinking back, like looking back at life growing up and at BYU, like now that you are away from it, does it seem crazy or does it just seem like like just something that you removed yourself from, or do you kind of look back and be like, WTF?

Both, I feel like, because there are certain things that I'm like, really? Yeah, how did I think that was okay? Like, why did I like make excuses for that kind of behavior or that kind of environment? And then there's other instances where I'm just like, oh, those little weirdos, they're just trying to be good and they just don't know what they're doing, you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, totally.

And I don't like, I mean, because I initially like left, I was kind of over it about 25, when I was 25, and I was still living in BYU housing, and I could not get over the culture and how like people were treating the LGBTQ community because that I'm very much involved in that community. I'm a straight ally, and I like have tons of friends, like best friends that are gay and trans. And I was just not okay with it. And so I was having a really hard time. And then when I went to grad school, I went 3 hours south to Cedar City, Utah. When I went to grad school for arts management, I was like, hey, I don't have to go to church because I'm not living in BYU housing. I'm not— I don't have to like follow the honor code, basically. Um, so I went here and there for like the first semester of grad school, and then I was like, no one's keeping track, I can just back off if I want to, you know. And I did, and it was seriously the best decision I ever made because it made me like reevaluate, like, okay, you backed away because you're uncomfortable with certain things, like what do you really believe, like what, you know. And I was just I did a lot of like soul searching and like similar to like I think what Ali was saying in one of your other podcasts, um, you know, just like the CES letter and all these things, you know, and like I was just not okay with what I was finding out and what I was feeling. And, um, yeah, and then the November 5th policy happened and that was kind of like the final nail in the coffin for me. I was like, oh, I'm never going back.

What, which one? What was that?

That was the one where it was like leaked that, um, which at the time I was studying, I'm like, I'm, I was studying nonprofit like arts organizations and just nonprofits in general. And technically, I mean, you know, religious organizations are nonprofits, um, so they don't have to pay taxes. Um, right. And so legally I knew that once, um, gay marriage was leaked, like declared legal nationwide by the Supreme Court, the church was going to have to do something within their policies and protocol. That's what you would do if some government policy or law was instituted and it affected your nonprofit. You would have to come out with some sort of policy or something to say, okay, well, this is what we're going to do to stand by our mission statement, but still abide by the laws, basically.

Okay.

I figured that was going to happen, but it was— it was leaked before I think they wanted to make their announcement that they were basically going to say, you know, like what they've said all these years, like they think, you know, gay marriage is a sin and, you know, marriage is between a man and a woman. And then the big clincher was like any children of gay couples, if they wanted to join the church, they couldn't until they were 18. And then at that point they have to basically like like, you know, declare that the lifestyle that their own parents are living is like a sin and in order to like join the church. And I was just like, seriously? Because I have a lot of friends that are still, you know, it fascinates me. There's so many people I know that have left the church, but there are a lot of people that have only left because, because that they're gay and they still believe the doctrine, actually, the principles of the church, which is insane. And so a lot of them still want to send their kids to an LDS church because, I mean, there, I mean, there are a lot of pros to growing up Mormon. Like, we have a really strong work ethic. Like, you know, we're great public speakers. Like, there's a lot of things that kind of like set you ahead to be a successful adult. Um, yes, that is, that's one thing.

I love that. Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, and so there's a lot of pros. And, you know, at the core of it all, like, it's, it's a Christian church. And so like, I think there's still people that wanted to raise their kids that way. And now it's like you just slapped all those people in the face. And that was such a big issue for me that I was like, nope, sorry, I can't. I can't do it. I cannot go back ever.

Yeah. I mean, just my last podcast, I was talking with my cousin who grew up LDS in Utah. And he said, I couldn't keep progressing in the Mormon Church spiritually, or I had to leave because I was gay. I'm not allowed to do anything else in the church whatsoever. So he was like, for even like if I wanted to grow, I had to leave. And so I guess I had never really thought about it that way either. But I mean, just when I was talking to Ally too, we talk about our spiritual growth and keep learning and keep growing. And yeah, I mean, he almost was like, it stunted my growth then. Like it was, they were saying, well, if you choose to live your life this way, then that's that. And so it just, it really does still, I could talk about it on and on and on because it just blows my mind. And I feel like it's just so contradictive of the beliefs that family is forever and God loves everyone and everyone is equal and just like all of those things that were, that are also ingrained in our brains. It's just, it's so hard for me to understand and accept it.

It. Yeah, like, I was just— I feel like you're backing people into a corner and you're like, hey, just live in this corner, you know? Like, and that's not fair. So yeah, I was, I was totally— I was actually dating a guy at the time in grad school, and he was like kind of inactive. I feel like there's like two different kinds of inactive people. This is, this is Holly's theory of inactive Mormon.

Yeah, let's hear it.

Like, like, I feel like if you— there's people that leave the church when they're like, typically younger. I mean, age doesn't really have a lot to do with it, but like they leave the church so that they can like have their little like rumspringa, you know, like the Amish people do. Like you go and like, you know, do your thing, but you have intentions of coming back, you know? And I feel like it's typically younger people. And then there's the other avenue of like, which I fall into, which is like, I was like ride or die, you know? And then, and I was even going to like the Harvard of Mormon world, you know? And I was like, okay, this is what I want my life to be. And I just found myself not fitting in. And so I leave later in life and I feel like I've ostracized myself. And it's so funny to me that people are like, oh, leaving the church is the easy way out. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you've obviously never questioned the church then and have tried to like step away because it's the hardest thing because you're literally walking away from everything you've ever known, and you're kind of trying to create your own community of people. And it's hard because it's in every single second and moment and day of our lives being Mormon. And so, like, who do I turn to? Who do I go to? You know?

Right. It's not just something that you go to on Sunday for an hour. Like, it's, yeah, it's something that's taught to you day in, day out, all the time. And I mean, in, in our little community, I think too, just it literally, it really is 100% of the time because you're surrounded by people who, yeah, are believing and living the exact same thing as you.

So there, that's how BYU was. Yeah.

But I think that it's almost, uh, I feel like that happens sometimes on purpose because then you, you don't have other people to like chit-chat with and be like, yes, this seems a little crazy. And then, you know, like you're just, you just keep in your bubble and and that's it.

Well, that's why I feel like they have singles wards, because if you were in a family ward, you would be dating from like, you know, not just the people that are also in the family ward, but from like other areas in your life, like your work and your school. And if you're not going to like a church school, then there's not a lot of control there. And so I feel like singles wards were instituted so that you're peeing in the pool, you know what I mean?

Oh yeah.

Like, you're kind— it's just like, it's a breeding ground, you know, to make sure that there are generations to come that are going to stay with these blinders on. And like, hopefully I'm not offending— I like, I have lots of friends that are like, you know, still Mormon. I respect their decision, but, um, I just sometimes I'm like, oh, just open your eyes a little bit bigger and see what's going on.

Like, I know, and I mean, I, I made this disclaimer when Ally and I first decided to release the episode. And hi, hello, like I grew up in an LDS community. I was raised LDS. I love LDS people. Like, this has nothing to do with me like all of a sudden becoming this anti-Mormon or anything like that. Like, my mom is still very active and so are a lot of my family members. Like, I love the Mormon Church and I really am so thankful for so many things. Like, just like you said, I grew up with really great values and family and learning how to give talks at such a young age and be comfortable. Like, there's a lot of things that I absolutely loved, but in my own experience, in my own journey, in my own life, there was other things and a lot of bullshit that came with it all and a lot of like shame. And I don't know if everybody feels that way, but I did. And so I think that it's just once you get older and you are kind of like just trying to figure yourself out, LDS or not, you have to look in, you have to dig deep, and you have to say, okay, why am I feeling this way? What are these things? And then it digs up all of your past, and then you're like, oh shit, it started here, and then it just kind of kept going.

Yeah, and then it's like therapy.

Yeah, and it really is. And I just feel like for me, it was such a relief when I finally left. I was almost able to like get rid of all of the shame that I had carried for literally like my whole life. And I had, and I mean, as you're older and you look back and you think I was just a kid, like I was a little child. So it's just, I think it is very much a very personal choice. And yeah, again, like you said, I hope I'm not ever offending anybody. I, I love the LDS Church and obviously have tons of friends that still practice, and but that's not an issue. And we just don't really talk about— same, you know, we don't really like bring up General Conference anymore, you know, we just, we talk about other things.

Yeah, like they caught on. They're like, oh, she's not going to church. And then when I was like, oh, I'm living with my boyfriend, they're like, oh, she's really not going to church anymore. And they just don't bring it up anymore, right?

Or like the question, like, how are you? It really means like, are you going to church? Are you reading the scriptures? Are you praying? And I'm like, it's so funny when people ask me that question, like, how are you? I'm like, do you— I know, what are you asking though?

You're like, I know what you're getting at, sir. Like, hold on here, none your business. So yeah, yeah, no, I had a— I had a grad— my grad school director, she explained it so well because I was like, you know, going through this turmoil in grad school, and grad school was like the hardest thing I've ever done. Oh, it was insane. It was 2 years of like the most glorious, horrible, like amazing, traumatic, like day-to-day, like trying to build myself into a better person spiritually, physically, and mentally. Um, and she— I was having a conversation with her and she grew up LDS as well. Um, and at the time she was also kind of like struggling with some things because of the November 5th policy. And we're all theater people, we're all art people, and. And so we're a little more liberal and open-minded naturally, and it was a real struggle for us. And she said that— she painted like the best analogy for me. It was like, we have these like issues and qualms with the church, and we like put it in a jar, and we put it on the shelf behind us, and we just kind of forget about it. And she's like, but after a time, those jars are too heavy, there are too many jars, and the shelves are going to break. And for some people, that's it. And for others, they can take a jar back down and be like, okay, I'm going to process through this. And now that shelf's— that jar's not on the shelf anymore, and I can still be a member of this church, and I'm fine with it. Or like, for instance, like my own mother, like there's certain things that I know she has struggles with, with the church, but she puts it in a jar and she puts it on the shelf and it doesn't bother her. She doesn't need to re— you know, visit that ever again. You know, she can hold on to these like small, simple truths, and that's enough to like build her testimony. And I'm like, okay, more power to you. But for me, there were too many jars on that damn shelf, and they were all too heavy, and they broke the shelf. And I was like, okay, I cannot do this anymore. Like, so I just— I don't know. So to each his own.

But I love that. That is such a good—

yeah, isn't it a great analogy of like what it's like to grow up in a very conservative or like religious environment? It's like, okay, you know. And you— and to me, like you said, I just felt this like relief when I was like, okay, I'm not going back. Like, so who is Holly now? Who have I always been? Like, what are the things that— what are my values? What do I— you know, because you're taught like, these are our commandments, these are our values, these are articles of faith, this is like what you're— these are your essentially— and at the same time I'm learning about nonprofits and mission statements and like, these are your life mission statements essentially.

Yes.

So for me I was like, okay, then what what's Holly's new mission statement for her life then, you know?

Oh yeah, I, I remember I was out on a— I went on a quote-unquote run. Yeah, right, a walk. I like jog, a light jog. And I was like thinking of, you know, my whole life and all of the life choices and the— all of the bad decisions and all the good decisions and all of the— just everything. And it was just rolling through my mind kind of like a movie, just I was like watching it all. And I had that exact exact same thing come to my mind. I was like, Kris, what are your values? Like, what do you believe? Like, you need to pick out and write down and then stick to those and like live those and not try and like branch out, not try and like, yeah, try other things quick. Because I would do that. Like, I would almost like morph into like what I was around when I was younger.

Oh my God, I'm so glad I'm not the only one that does Yeah, I'm like, we're like chameleons, you know, we're trained chameleons and it's not good.

And I was like, I am so sick of just like morphing into whoever I'm with and who— whatever I'm doing at the time. Like, I just want to be who I am all the time and bring that with me no matter what I'm doing.

Yeah.

Um, and so, but that didn't come to me until like a year ago and I'm almost 30, so I'm like, yeah, wow. And it takes like your whole— if something's been ingrained in your brain for your whole life, it's not just like you can walk away and be done. Like, those thoughts will still pop into my mind, or I'll still be like, oh my gosh, what if God is withholding blessings for me? Or like some, you know, like, what if my patriarchal blessing— like, I know, just like little things like that. I'm like, no, like, you are happy, you're living a great life, you're fine. Like, that's it. Like, you— I still feel like I have jars though. Like, I still feel like I'm like opening up a little jar, being like, let's dabble in that jar quick, let's remove some more shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mine are like crushed on the floor, but I'm like, I'll clean that mess up later, you know, one at a time, one at a time. We'll just sweep that up. Yeah, no, I, I definitely feel like I believe in like like, you know, universal truths. So I'm like, whatever, you know, like energy, the spirit, whatever you want to call it, that thing's a universal truth to me. And like, energy is science, and like, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So like, we are existing, you know, and we always will exist in that sense. And like, that brings me peace. And I've never really like been afraid of like death ever, not just because of growing up Mormon, but to me I'm like I'm like this crazy theater nerd. And so it's very poetic to me like, "Oh, your final curtain call." And then, I think it's beautiful. And so I'm like, "Oh, that's part of my mission statement. This is part of my truth. This is part of my truth in this and this and that." And I needed to surround myself with people that I could still be my authentic self with. And surprisingly, a lot of my friends that are still Mormon that were still my best friends growing up are still my best friends now. Because they are, you know, loving, caring, wonderful people. Um, and then I met new friends, you know, and rekindled friendships with other friends that have left the church, you know. And like, it was like our friendship, you know, was there but more of acquaintances in a way, and then it blossomed into like a deep friendship, you know, like, because we have this like thing in common, you know, and we can connect and we can be our authentic selves and we can and, you know, like, I don't know, just exist and not have to worry about, like, what other people are thinking and, like, our age and why we're not married and, like, why we don't have babies and, you know, things like that. And so I don't know. It's been an interesting— it's been an interesting last, like, 5 years for me.

As always, thanks for tuning in. Can't wait to talk to you next Monday. Love you.