How Pornography Changed My Brain

Welcome to my podcast, The Red Door, where humans share their stories. Our stories are what bring us together, connect us, and how we feel a little less lonely, giving you the reminder that you are not on this journey by yourself. As a collective, we share emotions and feelings, not the same way, but we each know what anger feels like, frustration, abandonment, insecurity, and and what shit is fake or not in alignment with us. It is my mission to provide a platform for you to get vulnerable and share your experiences with the world. There is always at least one person listening who will be transformed by your message. Remember that the next time imposter syndrome pops up and tells you you aren't ready or you aren't good enough. Or that no one cares. Tell that voice to fuck off and then DM me. I'm here for you now and always. Not just to hype you up, but to guide you down a path of mindset shifts so you can do the holy shit, this is hard inner work and create the life you love. If you're ready, enter here.

Gosh, it is like such a bitch, but the more that I've read about it, like it says that most people who are like successful and accomplished and like go-getters have imposter syndrome at every level because it shows up every time that you try something new because of a probably like fear of failure or Yeah, oh my God, people are gonna like find me out and say that I'm a fraud. Thinking about it is such a trip because it really does show up. And I think that it shows up more often than I would even like to admit. And it's, or not even admit, but just like that I recognize just in a, as a freelancer. So I was listening to this other podcast a couple of days ago about it. And she was saying, as a freelancer or as an entrepreneur, you have to be built and just like expect to pivot all the time. And so you're learning, learning, learning, you're gaining experience and expertise, and then you pivot. And that just happens like all the time. And so she was almost looking at it as like, you know, imposter syndrome could be potentially like a good thing because it means that you are like challenging yourself And I was like, huh, like I guess I've never looked at it as being something that was productive, but I guess it can be depending on if you don't live in that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. It brings you almost awareness of the situation. You're aware of what's actually happening around you and kind of how that, not just from like a perception standpoint of like kind of what are you standing for and what are you going after. Like if, if I'm seeing myself from the outside looking in, like, do I like what I see? Am I, am I going in the direction that I felt like I was going? And how can it be misconstrued? And it can also help you like fight arguments. Not that you want to have arguments, but it can fight those ideas where you're like, okay, I've already thought about this. Someone is probably going to say something about this. Let me kind of tackle it, or at least think how I'm going to go around and do that. Yeah, that's a good— I never thought about like that either.

Yeah, I know. I was like, huh, now my whole mindset is different around that. Like I'm almost like, let's bring on the imposter syndrome because now I can sit with it as like, oh, it's popping up because I'm pivoting. What are the credentials, right, for being an expert? You know what I mean? Like you hear all the time that the best way to actually learn something is by teaching it as well. And so really, as soon as you learn something, you should be teaching it. So that it ingrains into your brain. Aren't we all really like experts after we learn something and we continue to teach it and keep putting it out in the world? Really?

It's almost like that additional repetition, you know, you talk about like the 10,000 hours or something like that. It's teaching. It is also kind of a part of that. It's not just you consuming and doing, but it's sharing and stuff like that. You become more comfortable with it, whether it's podcasting, writing, sharing stories, whatever the case might be. It's obviously the first few times it's going to suck, but it doesn't mean you stop. And then, you know, it helps too to be on other people's shows or to do this thing. Okay, let me, let me pick some tips up of how somebody else did something, or I'm watching somebody else. It's, it's all, it's all interconnected.

Mm-hmm.

Well, yeah, and that's even— I've been able to see that a little bit in my own life doing the Instagram Lives, because I've never thought that I was scared to be in front of the camera. It's not that. I'm fine with that. But it's articulating my words, like saying what I mean.

Yeah.

How I mean it, because it's so different when you're just like conversing with your partner on the couch, because then you can really take an hour to be like, this is what I heard you say. What did you actually mean? And it's like a conversation back and forth. Whereas when you're going live or even on a podcast episode, right? It's a conversation. But when you're just going live to a camera, nobody's saying anything back. It's scary in a different way. Like, I'm fine showing my face, but when it comes to actually what I'm saying, I'm like, there's no feedback coming at me. Even if there was like hateful comments, at least I could like—

At least it's some sort of feedback. Yeah, yeah.

Something to work with. But when you're just talking to space and like some people are popping up and that little like number up in the corner fucks with you.

Oh, yeah, so much.

And it's like, 10 people live, just kidding, everyone's left. And you're like, oh God, did I say something?

Like, what did I say?

Like, they hated? So it's totally a trip, but I've only, I think that this is, you know, like my 10th day doing it and I now feel way more comfortable today than I did 10 days ago. And it's only been 10 days. Like think about when you do something over and over. And I think that that's why we hear people preach consistency all the time is not necessarily, yeah, for your audience too. I get that. But also for yourself, 100%, to help you grow and learn and teach and then in turn help your audience.

So anyway, like watching your live stuff, it's, it's, I've been throwing that idea around and literally after you, I think it was like your second or third day, I was just like, fuck it. I put it on my Trello board of just like, figure out what your plan is and just do it. Because again, to the point of, it's not like engagement would be nice because the last live video I did, Literally zero people watched the entire time. And I was just like, and again, you talk about it, you see like the little number and you're like, ah, I literally just bought, cause while I'm trying to do TikTok stuff with, with Hungry, but I'm like, I just bought a ring light. So I'm like, look, I'm an official TikToker now, but I'm like, all right. Like hopefully that'll blind me and I don't actually pay attention to that number, but it's like those things kind of mess with your head. But I saw you, I was like, no, she's consistently doing it. She's going after it. And I think another thing I have with that is same as you is I'm, I don't want to offend someone and do something the wrong way. Like, I have my beliefs that I stand very firm and strong and believe in, and I don't want someone else to come across and me be the negative stereotype when they think of those people. It's like, when people think of Christians, I don't want my image to portray what people are, and it's like, oh well, he's a bigot, or he's a what, you know? It's like, it's— and it's— I always don't mean anything by those kinds of things, but it's like Wait, did I say that the wrong way? Especially now in like, what's PC in anything? It's like no matter what you say, you're pissing somebody off. Oh yeah. So it's like, it's a very fine line. And at least with the podcast, there have been— I think I've only ever done it once and it was on my old show. We recorded the episode and we had to cut out an entire segment because when we listened back to it, we were like, Mm. And it wasn't anything horrid, but I think we were, I don't know if we were, my buddy was making fun of his wife and then it kind of got to like a generalization of women kind of thing. Very like all joking and the joke tone was there, but like listening back to it, if you didn't know us, like that would've been a complete turnoff. And we're like, all right, this isn't appropriate. So to the point is the live videos, you don't have that, right? Like obviously you can delete it and not actually share it after the fact, but like while you're saying it, you're just like, well, this is out there. So, and that's why I don't do podcasts. Like when I do podcasts by myself, I don't video them and post them online. To your exact point is to me, it feels like a live thing. I couldn't just sit here and stare at my camera and talk for 30 minutes about whatever my topic is, because I'm super self-conscious about like, I'm definitely gonna say the wrong thing. Even if it's the same thing I would've said with the camera off. Yeah, it's just having that— not having that feedback, you know. And we talk about it with, um, just with everything's going on now with like non-verbal communication, you know. It's, it's hard for kids and stuff with masks and that sort of thing to really grow those skills because they don't— they're not recognizing those things. You can't tell someone if someone's smiling or frowning or is upset because it's so all the non-verbal in the face alone. And, and I'm curious, you know, this is obviously be 5, 6 years, 5, 10 years down the road, what that effect of that is. But it's one of those things where we don't realize how much that feedback sometimes is needed. Or even if it was someone just on the other side watching it, like almost I did a live podcast and it was like a Zoom audience. Like at least then you can see like, people are feeling it, people are doing it. Like, nope, no one likes this. Okay then. So my wife and I are planning on doing an episode for my next podcast episode, which she has never listened to a podcast, much less any of my episodes. Um, which is, which is fair. It's not our thing. And I don't— I wouldn't want to listen to me. I get it. Uh, but it's our 15 years since we started dating on Tuesday, and that's when our episodes come out. And I was like, honey, it would be so funny to do like a newlyweds game and like ask some questions and go back and forth. She's like, yeah, but can we have like an audience? Because I just don't want to be on camera. And I'm like, no, we can't. Like, I do this every week and I deal with it. You just suck it up.

It'll be fine. Yeah. My husband, oh my gosh, I know I'll be like, did you listen to my podcast episode? Knowing that he probably didn't. And he's like, I support you. Everything you do, everything you talk about, like, I love you. And I'm like, so no. Did you listen though? Yeah. So I totally will like throw shit all the time or I'll like tag him in my stories. Like, I'll just be like, sorry, not sorry, Kurt. Because I'm just like, he don't listen. He doesn't see. Who knows? Everybody else does. But kind of to your point about— I think yesterday when I was doing the live about white supremacy, I was very like, ugh, because I don't even know enough about the topic. And I think that that's what holds us back is— 100%. —talking about this, is talking about something that we don't know a lot about and also kind of like about yourself. And trying to figure it out, trying to understand, trying to be respectful of everybody else's beliefs and opinions. But to the author's point, we need to get so used to being wrong and uncomfortable that we just do it anyway. And she's like, because you will fuck up and you will offend people and you will, like over and over and over again. And she's like, and that's the point though. Is because through all of that and through that process, you're learning and you're growing and you're changing and you're taking action is what her entire book is about. It's like, take action. Stop just like talking about it. Stop reposting Black Lives Matter. Okay, what the fuck are you doing though? Like in your life or even with your own, like with Hangry. Great. You've, you're taking action for something that you are passionate about. And so I think that I have been like trying to wrap my head around, because I mean, I even told you on your podcast, that's my like long-term goal. But I'm like, okay, no more long-term goal for me. Let's just fucking do it like next week. Because why am I just sitting on something that is all about serving and helping other people? Like it needs to happen now and not just in 10 years from now. Yeah. So I think that this book has been really like eye-opening, and she does say in, in the book, like, she's like, of course, like, a white woman reading this is going to be like, oh my God, you know what I'm— and so there I am. Oh my God. But I— she's doing something I think that is so needed. I've had people reach out when I posted about it, other white women saying Oh my God, I needed actionable steps. Like I needed somebody to break down what can I do, like give me ideas because you have the best of intentions, but you aren't sure where to go. And so I'm just like all about this book, but it's been kind of annoying because my husband's gone. He's deployed, or not deployed, but he's on like a temporary duty assignment. And, um, So I have the kids 24/7, and so I'm like trying to listen, and then they'll be like talking and crying, and I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't. You guys, I'm listening to a podcast. I'm listening to a book that's so important to my 2.5-year-old." Silent. And then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, now I'm silencing my kids. We all need to have a voice." Yeah. So it's a vicious circle. And so trying to listen, trying to nod, trying to pay attention to my kids. So anyway, I'm excited to actually dive deep into it at some point.

But it's just trying to be comfortable in having those conversations. That's so tough because I had a friend of mine talk about, she had on her board, one of the people came in to speak to her board of the nonprofit she was on, where she was the executive director for. And they said, "Hey, everyone pull up your LinkedIn profile. Who do you follow? Do they all look like you? Are they all in the same industry as you?" And it's like, how are you supposed to ever learn things? Social media algorithms literally work by this stuff. How are you supposed to learn anything or see anything different if you don't actually pursue it?

I heard, I can't remember who said it, but I was listening to a woman who said that she has two different accounts. She has an account where she goes for like her spiritual information, you know, and like keeps it pretty light, like meditating, cute dog photos, you know, that kind of stuff. And then she has a profile that's specifically extremely diverse for that reason, because she was like, "I want to hear from everybody. If I'm a devout Christian, I want to have somebody, multiple people who are atheist, who are thinking totally different from me. If I am a, you know, if I am pro-life, then I want people who talk about abortion." Like she was like, I I specifically did that on purpose because I want to learn and be able to keep questioning, keep my own opinion. And I loved that. Don't feel like creating two different profiles, so I'll just have it on one. I want it all in one place and all over so that I can be full of diverse information at all times. Because growing up, I didn't question. Hardly anything. And I thought questioning was bad and Satan was putting those thoughts in your head if you were questioning your religion, questioning the things that were happening. God obviously doesn't want you to have sex before marriage, Kris. Why are you even thinking about like kissing somebody? That is not okay. And so I think that now as a parent, That's how you break the cycle. And I was talking to my mom the other day, and she does listen to this podcast. Hi, Mom. And do you think that like you were— Oh gosh. I was like, oh, here we go. Here it is.

Oh, Mom.

I was like, oh, Mom, love you so much. I'm like, but just think about it from this perspective. You have told your story of how it was really hard being parented by your parents. Like my grandma was extremely unbalanced. Kind. I'm like, and you weren't very, like, you were a pretty kind mom. I'm like, so that is great. Like, you broke the cycle of, if you were just a little bit different than your parents and started teaching a little bit differently, that's great. I was like, and now it's my turn. I was like, I'm not saying that I hated my childhood and you were like an awful parent by any means. I'm like, I'm just saying that you only know what you know, Mom. Like, I don't blame you for how you raised me. But now I know differently, or feel differently, and so now I'm going to parent differently. I'm like, it doesn't mean that I like am judging you or, you know, belittling you. I'm just saying that's where it fucking starts, is teaching your kids these things about exactly what we've been talking about, about race, about religion, about questioning everything. Like, you have to start teaching that from a young age instead of when they're 18 and saying, "Here you go." Yeah, here's the key to everything. Yeah, now you can make your choices and learn how to govern yourself. You've had no experience. Good luck.

Yeah. Nice. Have fun with that. And it's funny you bring that up 'cause it's kind of the aspect of what— So I grew up in a household, we went to Catholic church because you're Hispanic and that's what you do, obviously. I'm gonna make generalizations about Hispanics 'cause I'm allowed to. Puerto Rican, it happens. But that's what we did. We went to church 'cause my grandmother did. Every Sunday we went there. Didn't understand, didn't care, didn't want to. It was just like, why am I doing this? And then when I came to my own faith and my own journey in that situation, it kind of opened my eyes to the realization is like, this is a decision I have to make. Yes, people can lay the foundation of this kind of thing, but this is a decision that I personally have to make. You can't force this upon anyone. And that's a whole big problem with just soapbox Christians as it is now is turn or burn and this whole message. You're like, yeah, that's really good. That's really going to get people to see the good news if that's what we're going to call it that way. It's like, come on now. Those where people need to make their own decisions, form their own opinions in this thing. To your point, you want to give the opportunity, you want to guide them in a way that's going to keep your kids safe and away from harm, but still give them the opportunities to make mistakes and learn things on their own because that's how you grow. If you have this bubble wrap safe life where nothing can ever affect you, that's the reason why a lot of these people that are kind of getting woke, if you will. It's because they never had to deal with any of it. They never had any— they never saw anyone that looked different than them. So why do they think it was an issue? And now people are bringing it up, you're like, wait a second, this is a problem. I just was blind to it because it wasn't around me. I wasn't made aware of these situations. To your point, it's not that parents didn't do anything right, it's just that's the way they learned from their experience. And then you kind of compounded it and you learned from your experience stuff. I do the same thing with my parents as well. My mom's the same way. Like, if my mom listened to to any of my episodes, like, is it okay, Jonathan? Is everything okay? Do we need to talk? I'm so— why do you think I was such a bad mother? Like, because I bring up all these like weird stories of like, hey mom, remember that time you left me at the baseball field and I had to walk 3.5 miles home with my baseball bat and my trombone? She's like, why do you bring that up? I'm like, because it's funny. Yeah, it's fine.

I'm not judging you.

Yeah, I'm here, you know. It's so hard to kind of break out of that mindset sometimes of When people make decisions, it's— we shouldn't necessarily take it personal in that kind of thing. Is you, you try to guide someone to something regardless of what it is, and if it doesn't end up the way you wanted to, that's fine. It's them. Like, that's their life that they have, you know. They every— we all make decisions, we all have, and we all have consequences for our actions, whatever those might be. It'd be positive, it could be negative consequences. Whatever it is, there's a, there's a, an action and a reaction. Always. And we can't determine the reaction based off of our action. We can't say, this is what you're going to do and this is how you're going to respond by it. That's just not the case. You see it with kids now. It's like, um, with video games and stuff like that. Like, who would have thought that like esports would have been a huge thing? Like, growing up, it's like, stop playing video games, you're never going to get anywhere in life. I'm like, well, if I would have continued doing that, I'd probably be a multi-millionaire by now. You know what I mean? Like, why did you— why'd you give me that bad advice, Mom, saying I shouldn't play video games until 3 AM? It's one of those things where it's— you find an opportunity. We don't need to do the same thing the way we've always done it. I'm reading a book and talking about like the amount of, uh, progress that's happened just in the last 50 years. We don't even talk about societal progress, just technological progress that's happened in the last 50 years. It's mind-blowing. And you're just like, this— that's literally just the last half a century. How much has changed? How much we've evolved? Into what we're able to accomplish. And it all starts with people going, "There has to be a better way to do this," or, "There has to be a different way of doing this. Why do I need to follow in the footsteps of the previous person and just build upon it?" You're like, "No, I'm going to take this other road and see where it goes." And more than likely, it might be a dead end, who knows, but it could also just kind of be a breakthrough.

Yeah, absolutely, 100%. This is a perfect segue though into the conversation that I wanted to have, which was a real talk about porn. So let's talk about it because of technology. And I had read this, one of my girlfriends had referenced like a Christian book. I'm Christian. So it's kind of funny that I just made that face like a Christian book. I think that I have a weird— I'm still working through this. I'm like, and you can see that as I talk about it on my stories is like, digesting how I grew up, figuring out what I think now, kind of putting it together. And like, I just feel like I'm still unpacking it. And so I think that there's like certain words sometimes where I'm like, "Oh," like it just makes me, like triggers me a little bit.

Yeah, no, I get it.

But I had a friend who wanted to do like a book club with just us two. I was like, "Sure." And she referred this Christian book. I can't even remember the name. It was several years ago. But the woman was talking about about, obviously from a woman's perspective, all of the comparison. And she brought up like pornography and how growing up for her— gosh, she grew up, I think, in like the '60s. So she was saying there was not really— obviously there was no social media, there wasn't like Pornhub. And so there was nothing that was like in comparison. Yeah, there were like, there was Playboy or like nudie magazines, but they were like hidden, you know, they weren't just like accessible for everybody to see. And so it's not like you were coming across, you know, what a woman should look like or should do or any of that. So it was, she was kind of making this, I don't know, I think she was talking about like her kids now and like what her daughters were going through. As young women compared to what she went through and that there was really no comparison issues as far as— I don't know, I'm basically saying the same shit. So from a woman's perspective, porn can be a couple different things in the sense of— and I'm trying to open, like, have a different lens about it and not like a, you grew up in this religion, don't talk about it. Yeah. You have that question in your head, like when you're having an intimate relationship with somebody, whether that be your husband or your boyfriend or none of the above, whether or not you want to say that there's emotions involved, there's always emotions involved. Like no matter what, we're all energy. Like we give off energy, we receive energy. And so I think that having no concept of like watching it myself before I had had sexual experiences, having sexual experiences, feeling maybe like uncomfortable during them, not understanding what was happening, what was being asked. I feel like there's so much to unpack around it and nobody ever wants to like talk about it. Yeah. And discuss like the impact, the different types of impact that it can have on you. So I would just love to hear kind of like your experience and anything that you are comfortable sharing. If you have like if you have, let's just break the fucking taboo and just like talk about it. So anything you wanna share.

Yeah, it's funny you bring it up 'cause I was telling my wife and then a friend of mine about like this conversation we were going to have. And it was one of those where she was like, my wife was like, that's good. It's good for you to kind of talk about it and kind of get it out in the open because it's not something that I've talked about a lot like publicly. Like I've probably made references to it in certain things, but it's definitely not like a declaration, if you will. But yeah, I mean, we, uh, well, we can preface everything is I, I felt like I had an addiction to pornography and kind of went down that whole rabbit hole and really came to a halt when I, I thought something got sent to my wife's phone instead of my phone. And then it kind of had to come clean from the situation. He's like, hey, this is what's going on. And, and then from there on, it was like Once you kind of release that and kind of bring it out into the air, it kind of makes it a little more real and you're just like, okay, and then step back. And it's like, obviously, you know, hiccups along the way, but I mean, it's probably been a couple years now with no issues is how I'll call them. And kind of taking a step back to what we originally talked about, kind of brought up the conversation is I don't ever remember having like a birds and the bees conversation as a kid. My parents were divorced. When I was 10 or 11, maybe, I don't know. So basically split time between houses and stuff like that. My dad was always the kind, like, he had a Playboy subscription for as long as I can remember. And it wasn't like the magazines were hidden. It wasn't like in the back room behind the curtain or even like in the gas stations where I don't even still think they do this, but they have like the black sheet of just like adults only. And you're like, well, like, just tell me to like, then just like, I'm obviously going to do this. Like, don't press the button. You're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna press it. Um, but so it was just out in the open and we had like a magazine rack in our living room and it's like my dad— Ebola literature. Yeah, it's like, hey, if you just need things while you're sitting in the waiting room, just peruse through these jokes. Um, which funny enough, like they had some really good jokes and it got to a point, it got— and this is how like from a desensitized standpoint, it got to a point where I actually was reading the articles and the jokes because it was just like, it meant like It meant nothing to me before I even understood what it was. Yeah, I guess. And we can go like, there's obviously a couple different realms from that. I like, of course I hit my microphone now, it just wants to like jack up. But, um, so Dad had these things in the living room all over the place. And then when my parents— that's after my parents got divorced, so it's at his house, it's only guys there. It's basically me and my dad, or my brother and my dad, whoever lived there at the time. And, and they would just be out in the open, so we would just grab them anytime we wanted to and it'd just be a thing. And then Then obviously that turned into the internet started picking up around that time. My dad had a laptop. We had dial-up internet and then we got DSL. These kids today, you wouldn't realize— This is how you knew it would be a problem if you waited 5 minutes for a picture to load kind of thing. You're like, "Get out of here." Oh gosh. Yeah. Dad would pick up the phone and disconnect. I'm like, "Dad, I'm on the internet." Yeah, um, gosh, '90s kids. Uh, but yeah, so it started there, and then it turned into I had access to the computer and then started finding, you know, more options of things where it was no longer just like centerfolds. It was obviously what you, what you would probably consider porn now, because most people wouldn't consider like Playboy stuff like that. That's more—

that's, um, yeah, what's that considered?

I don't, I don't— I mean, I guess in theory it could be like, it probably fits under that same realm. But to me, I think of porn more of like the actual like videos. Yeah, like sexual acts itself. It doesn't have to necessarily be videos, but like there's something actually happening. It's not someone just posing in photography because it can almost be— it could almost be art because a lot of the Playboy stuff was never taken out of context. And that's where we used to get way into the things like Playboy was more artsy, more artsy kind of photos. And you had like Hustler, which was not. It was just let's— let's— can she touch her toes kind of thing. You're just like, I don't— like, why, why do I care? And it got to a point, so it started there and then slowly, you know, as I had more access, kind of like we talked about earlier, the more access I had, the more I kind of got into it. And then, I don't think my parents are gonna listen to any of this, so we're just gonna talk about all of it. But my mom, then we'd go to my mom's place and realize it wasn't any better. My mom had VHSs that were porn videos. And it's like, you know, again, these kids today, they don't realize like you had to watch it, but then you had to rewind it so it didn't look like you watched it.— which took forever— that she had a cool one of those, like, do you remember those, those just VCR winders? Yeah, yeah, I remember those. Oh man. But you— we went down that path, and it's like, then, then it was almost— you kind of brought this up in your live video— of like almost a shame kind of thing, where you felt it in the moment, everything seemed glorious, all of our senses are heightened, everything's euphoric, and then instantly afterwards it's instant shame. And what did I do? What's going on? Why am I like this? And at time, it wasn't even a faith-based thing for me. It had nothing to do with my faith because I didn't really have a faith. Like, I believed in God. I've always believed in God, but I didn't have that extra, um, idea of understanding kind of what I believed good for me and what wasn't good for me. So it was just like, it just internally, I just felt like, why am I doing this? And it kind of caused shame there. And this is, you know, this would probably been I'm gonna say 11, 12, 13 maybe. I don't, I don't really know. And then next thing I know, it's like, you know, then you get to a point where, you know, you kind of, you go through puberty, real, really go through puberty, kind of grow up, and it's like, hey, I'm not the ugliest kid in my class, so that works out well for me. But at the same point in time, it's then, it's been the objectification where it's like, no, I know what I can do with whomever I want because of the way I look or because of whatever it is or because I know how to talk or whatever the thing is. This is all hindsight. I'm all realizing this many years later of everything I was doing was along that path where it's like every person I dated, everything that happened, not that I was ever, I never felt that I remember. Again, I was telling somebody about this, I think I was telling Kayla, my wife, about it. It's like, I don't remember so much from my childhood, and I don't know if that's good or not. I don't know if it's something where I just blocked it out because it was just such a bad memory or there weren't happy thoughts in that memory, and I kind of just replaced them with happier things. But there's like literally periods of my life I don't remember. And I'm like, I probably need to see a therapist and kind of like unpack and get some of that stuff out. But But there'd be— I never had a point where I felt like I was forcing anyone to do anything. To the point is I was very suggestive. And I think I got a lot of that from the things I was watching. It's like, no, the guys take control in these situations. This is how it works. Like, these are the things that girls like. Obviously, I'm watching videos about this. And then it just kind of turned my head again, never having that actual talk of understanding what's a healthy type of relationship to have. Like you talked about, there's always emotions involved in that stuff. And it's like, you know, It's more than just being like a heartbreaker or something like that. You kind of run into this weird cycle of kind of the objectification and just the, um, making things just seem taboo and desensitizing yourself. Again, I got to a point where I could read the articles, read the jokes, you know, we— I could do all these things because it started to mean nothing to me. I would have sex or do some sort of sexual activity with people and it would just be like I just did another thing. And it was just like, in years and years and years of this, and you're like, then it gets to a point where I, I find my faith. I, I, you know, I get married, I do these things, and now, now I'm battling with that same thing of because I desensitize it, I have to work harder to, to not have that same viewpoint and stuff like that on it. Yeah, but it's so, it's so easy, I think, to get down that rabbit hole of thinking, hey, I'm just watching a video, or hey, this isn't really affecting me because I'm— maybe I'm learning. You know, to your point, it's like, hey, you were doing all these things and you didn't know what was right, what was— what should I be doing, how should I be doing things, or whatever the case might be. So a lot of people turn there going, this is what it should be like, or, or maybe like. But then you get these like bad ideas, and then you can go down dark paths of like whether it's fetishes that are not healthy for people, whether it's like abusing or, or things like that. And then we talked about Fight the New Drug in your live video or whatever, and their idea of talking about like racial injustice, of how like there's so many things in there where it's people are specifically after specific things that they want to watch because that's what they're into. It's like, how many times do you hear stories of people stalking people because they see something like that and then this happens? Human trafficking and sex trafficking and stuff like that. Like, once I really I knew, I knew about it and still kept doing it until it came to that point where, uh, I was basically found out, if you will. Um, and, and once when you really dig into that stuff and realize how much of that actually happens and how much of it happens not, not into people that are not well off or just from other countries and stuff like that, you know, we have people here in our community in Columbus. There's an organization that literally tries to save people from from prostitution or human trafficking or sex trafficking. It's literally like, "Hey, a suburban family couldn't afford something, so they just sold their kid to do videos, stuff like this." This is middle class. These people aren't poor. They don't need the money, but it's just like, "Hey, I couldn't afford my drugs this month, so I'm going to have my 16-year-old daughter do these things because there's a market for it." I think that's Fight the New Drug's whole motto is think before you consume. Because you don't realize what you're kind of perpetuating.

When you talk about it, or if you like come forward and say like, I think I have a problem, it's like you're immediately shamed. Then the trust factor almost— yeah, it's like no more trust.

But the interesting thing is, is the idea of we don't treat other addicts that way. We look at sex as something you can control. How many times did we see, you know, over the past 10 years, people say that they're sex addicts? And some of them are probably real, some of them probably just, hey, I I needed to get away from this PR publicity stunt. But this is a real problem. It messes with your head. Like sex in general, the chemicals that change in your body while you're having sex pre and post, it's a real thing. So we don't treat other addicts when someone says something like, hey, I think I have a drug problem. You're like, again, you have that trust issue of like, well, we need to do this. But you then say, how can we help? Yeah, it's not just, well, deal with it, stop watching it, just stop doing it. And it's, it's not, it's not that easy. It's one of those things like literally Kayla had to put, she put a Post-it note on my laptop that, that in the inside when I open it, it says think about it before you click or something like that. Or like, or like, what does my love mean to me? Because there'll be times where, you know, we would literally, we would either have sex or she'd be gone or whatever the case would be. And it's like, I would rather spend time by myself watching videos. And like, that's not right. That makes no sense whatsoever. And it's because at the time, like, mentally, I was not understanding what sex should mean in the context of marriage and that sort of thing of like building that relationship and having that bond, being vulnerable, whatever the case might be. It became, this is an act, it's an end to a means or means to an end. And it's like, no, that's not the case at all. And I think that's And that's kind of what started changing my mindset around it is because we don't— we have this idea of when someone has a problem, we usually want to help them unless it's a problem that we see as not really a problem. Like, I don't understand this. I watch porn every once in a while. What's the big deal? And it's like, yeah, but is that how you learned about sex? Yeah. Has that been the last almost 15, 16 years of your life? I'm like, no, like when those things happen, it's a real wake-up call. And it's the same thing if you're addicted to something for 15, 16 years. I mean, if you did a livestream for 15 years every single day, right, it would be weird if you stopped doing it. It was the same kind of thing where you're just like, wait, am I weird for not doing it now? And I had that. I had some people like, I'd make these comments of like, I'd say something about it, and then it's like Well, you're a weirdo. Why don't you do that? You're like, because it's a problem. And if you think of like the whole big picture, there's an issue. I have an issue with it. So I don't want to be put in situations with it. I'm better now where it's like if someone else says something or shares something, especially with like TikTok and social media now, someone will share something where a girl's basically half naked and do whatever. I just swipe straight through it. And before, you know, I would, not that I would do anything while watching the video, but it was— I would admire over it and kind of use that as like a mental image. And, and kind of— and then it gives you like those flashbacks of those kinds of things where now it's like, no, I'm just— I'm, I'm at a place now where I feel strong enough that I could do that. But that does— it's just like any other addiction. All it takes is one time.

So I want to, I want to talk about something really quick because I think that growing up We were taught to be modest because of kind of what you said, right? Like if you wear a bikini, Chris, you are now in some dude's brain and like that is on you. So you need to cover your body and you need to remain modest at all times. And I remember like taking that on as like a— if a dude was hitting on me, I'm like, what was I wearing? Something? What did I say? What did I— did I like stand a certain way? Is my shirt too low? And I mean, if you follow me, I want or destigmatize that just because there's a woman in a bikini doesn't mean that she needs to be sexualized. 100%. And so I think that it's still like, I've still gotten comments or received comments from other people, maybe still in the religion, maybe not, I don't know. And maybe people judge me without saying, which I'm sure is happening. But when I became an aerialist, when you are an acrobat of any type, I mean, gripping onto like the pole and the silks, anything, your skin is what holds you there. Like even as you climb, you have to grip with your foot on your other foot because that's what's holding you there. And so I remember people being like, oh my gosh, like you're only wearing like a leotard. Like what are you doing? You're a mom. Remember we talked about this?

I'm like, I love that clip. I showed that to everyone.

Like, this is so great. I'm like, it doesn't matter that I'm a mom. Like, I'm— what? It was just so crazy to me. And people being like, well, couldn't you just be like more dressed? And I remember being like, ah, like almost put back to being a 16-year-old girl and having that whole like You, because you're dressing this way, Kris, like, it's your fault. You are causing sin in like the minds of men. And I just— that's a lot of heavy shit to put on women in general. And maybe it is done to men. I feel like there's just so much like behind this topic. It could just go on for hours and hours. But I think that one reason why porn is so, like, looked down upon is because of all of the shit that society continuously says about it, like, to women or to men, like, the should monster. And I talked about that, like, what it should be, what you should look like, what you should think, how it will affect you, how it won't affect you, how some people can view it every day and not think that they're an addict, or how some people never view it, but they still think about it daily. I don't know. There's just so much, but I want you to talk about being in a marriage and once it was kind of brought to the surface, obviously it didn't just go away. So how did you deal with it and were you and your wife able to talk about it? You didn't even associate it necessarily. You're in love with your wife, but that doesn't mean that you're still not addicted. You know what I mean? I think that some people think that. You're in love with me. I'm your partner. Right.

I'm not going to leave you for this person, so it shouldn't be a problem. Like, I'm just watching this, I'm with you kind of thing. That's a shitty argument all the way around. But I will answer your question, but I wanted to go back to your bikini point. 90% of the time, it's not the persons in the picture, in the videos, it's the person viewing it, the one objectifying that person. The other 10%, and that's basically half the social media and TikTok and stuff like that, it's like, hey, I'm a big fan of these like shuffle dancers right now because it's like super interesting and cool to me, but it's like Do you need to be wearing the stuff you're wearing? You're literally wearing it so you get more clicks. That's why you're doing it. It has nothing to do with your art. Your case, you know, aerialists and that sort of thing, it has a function. It makes sense. It isn't— but it's like, there's no reason for you to be doing these things other than I'm trying to get likes because I'm trying to objectify myself for more fame or whatever it is. And if that's your case, then I don't know what to tell you about that.

But to that point as well, just because I'm dressed that way doesn't mean that I'm saying touch me without consent, right? So I think that there's so many different layers to all of this.

And that's what makes it so hard and confusing because there's not a clear cut of— and to your point, it's like, if you're not modest, you're choosing this. And it's like, well, that's not really the case. And it's like, she's asking for it. That's what you hear so much. It's like, well, she wouldn't dress like that, you know, she wouldn't have these issues. You're like, no, no, it's the asshole's fault. Like, it's his fault for doing whatever the case. Totally.

That's where you just want to punch everybody in the face for saying shit like that.

Literally everyone in the face.

Oh yeah, I'm like, I've heard that so many times. Or like, you know, the commentary after like a woman has come forward of, you know, being sexually assaulted and they're like, okay, what were you wearing? Does it matter? Yeah, like nothing. It still doesn't mean that, you know, I was saying come and touch my body. So anyway, Yeah, marriage. That's a whole different thing, but let's talk about, yeah, marriage and how to like navigate that road or that— because maybe somebody listening is feeling this and is like, "Okay, I might be ready to talk about it or I might be ready, but I'm scared," because there is that missing piece that you still— just because you're an addict doesn't mean that you don't love somebody. You're an addict. We need to like break down the difference between— I'm in love with you, but I also have a problem.

Well, I think it goes to the, the point of the separation of it. I didn't see those two things on the same level playing field. Like, they were just two completely different things. I didn't think about it as a, as an issue until you start, like, again, hindsight realizing, like, oh, wait a second, why did, you know, she go to bed at 10 o'clock and I stayed up till 1 o'clock in the morning to stay on my computer? Like, Like that's red flags. Like that should be, that's just for yourself, you should be able to see that. And that's how you can kind of understand if like, hey, maybe I do have a problem here. Like, are you adjusting your life to hide things from your partner? Because that means there's a problem. Like if you're doing things because you have to hide them, not a good thing. And really, you know, again, I wish I would've said that I brought it up and, you know, it was something that I was easily like, you know what, I have a problem, let's take care of this. It was no, it was literally a fearful thing where I thought I was basically found out. And because of that, like, Literally, I was at the house, I still remember it, sitting on our couch and she was at work, I was at home and literally thought this happened and almost panic attack, heart racing, sweating, I'm pacing, I'm like, "This is not what's going to happen." And she's at work, so she's not responding to my text, which makes things a lot worse. And she must have obviously gotten it, "Oh my gosh, what's going on? What's happening?" And it just came a point where I was like, "I said it." God love her for just listening to me and not not that she wasn't— I don't think she was judging me per se, but I'm sure there's some things she just didn't understand because she didn't grow up like that. And it makes it a lot harder sometimes between her and I. She's a farm girl from rural Pennsylvania, and they grew up in Amish country, and they have like their values are kind of instilled in there. And there's just like, there's things you do, things you don't do. Not like a shame or shame on you kind of thing, So she basically gave me like, um, just understanding, like time to really say, okay, like, let's tell me what it is because I don't, I don't understand it. And I think that's, that's a hard thing to have because not everyone has that in, in their partner. And how do you navigate that? I would just say it's like you just have to, you have to trust that, you know, your relationship is stronger than this thing. Again, it's one of those where it's I wasn't going to leave you for whatever the case may be, but it's— you have to be strong enough to know like, hey, this isn't healthy and it's not going to get better unless you kind of bring it out in the open and talk about it. And I think we had those conversations about— and, and, you know, again, just love her so much for this. Literally the first thing she asked me is, what can I do to help? And I think— and that's kind of— that's the aspect that you have to have with any addiction. It's don't shame, don't blame, don't try to figure it out, don't solve the problem. Ask the person What can I do to help you? Oh yeah, like, how can I support you?

What do you need?

Yeah, because it's— she doesn't understand it. She doesn't get it, you know? And it's one of those where we just have to figure out, like, okay, how can we do this? And it's like, okay, you know, for the first, like, couple weeks, it was texting me every morning because she went to work early, and sometimes I'd work from home or be later, and she's like, how'd you do today? Literally every day. And it got to a point where it was just like— it was kind of one of those, like, kids kind of thing where, like, yes, Mom, I did the chores. But at the same point in time, it's like, no, you need it. You need that daily reminder of just like, no. And it is so crazy. And again, she's not gonna listen to this, so it's fine. But like, the way our sex life had changed once that— not instantly, but as I started to realize like, hey, I don't want that in the moment. I'm enjoying what we're doing actually, like, more than just like the actual physical aspect of it, the, the unity of it, if you Like, our sex life is better than ever. And it's because I realized like how destructive that was of almost holding her to a different standard that she had no— like, like, and is that even what I wanted? I think it's just what I watched so much that I assumed that was— that's the playing field. Like, this is where I should have been. And this is where we were. But I didn't really want to be here. It's just what I knew. Things are so much better after having those conversations, opening and getting out in the open going, I don't, I don't need that. And once you kind of have that eye-opening, things just kind of open up and change. I talk about with a bunch of other kinds of things in my life with once you kind of realize and step out of your comfort zone and have awkward conversations, learn something new, put yourself out there, you realize how much better off you are knowing the information you know, being able to take that step forward and knowing that I have someone alongside of me that is supporting me in those things. And now every once in a while, she'll— something will come up with it and she'll be like, "Well, how are you doing with that? Are things so good?" I'm like, "Things are great." I don't even have the urge to do it. And I still have it on every single one of my computers is I have a thing where it doesn't let me go to Pornhub and a couple other sites that were kind of like my triggers where I was just like, I'd instantly just go to it. And I blocked it actually on our Wi-Fi network. And I'm like, "No device can access it." Do I feel like I need that anymore? No, because I don't have the desire to do it, but I don't want to click on a stray link and it go there again. And then all it takes is a few minutes of scrolling. Not that I'm putting that above my wife or my sex life or whatever the case might be. It's just your brain then kicks in just like any other addiction. It goes, oh, I have— yeah, here's the stimulant. And I want to like, let's, let's do what we need to do.

Really, this entire conversation can just be led back to this because there's like things that you just don't talk about.— that need to be talked about in a marriage, in a friendship, getting so comfortable talking about the uncomfortable things. And it totally starts in your home. It starts with having conversations about this, putting it out into the world so that somebody else hears it. Somebody else feels touched, they feel heard, and then they can reach out. I mean, it's just like fostering connection. And even before COVID our society was going away from— like, we forgot what it was like to actually be connected. I mean, we even see it now where you're at a table full of people or a room full of people and everyone's looking at their phone instead of, like, chatting. The more that we can, like, normalize it that having these conversations and also normalizing it that it's totally fine for, like, a male and a female to have that conversation as well and, like, share it instead of, like, oh, I should only be talking to my friends who are the same religion as me or my friend who has the same outlook as me. We should be talking to people who have the opposite view, who have a completely different perspective, who've had a completely different experience and then be able to show all aspects unbiased.

I think it's nice having those conversations with people that you don't necessarily are on the same side with. But, and I think COVID may have helped this in a way, because not that we're hiding behind a screen, I mean, we're having, we're still having a conversation, but we are behind a screen. And even just this little bit of disconnect, like if you were across this table from me, I probably would have said the same things we had, but there'd be a little more, let's say a little more tension, but you could, there'd be something a little different. This feels a little more freeing. So now we're able to have conversations virtually. And when these happen, you can you can kind of open up a little bit, you kind of drop that guard just a hair. And that's why I like podcasts like mine and yours where it's just like, we're just gonna talk and there's not a rubric. It's like there's no notes, we're just having a conversation. You can break down those walls and realize like, hey, we can come together on some common grounds and understand each other. I'm probably not going to change your mind, you're not going to change my mind, but now that I know it's, it's, you know, not that warfare is the right word for it, but you understand the opposing sides and people's point of view and things. So next time I approach a topic like this, I understand the viewpoint of someone else and can respect that and understand and have empathy for that. It may not be my viewpoint, but it's not my place to discount how someone else feels, whether I feel like they're right or wrong or it's real or not. That's not my place to do that. And, and I think that's kind of the big picture, like you said, wrapping— like the whole picture of all of this is getting, getting comfortable with discomfort and putting yourself out there and just having those conversations. If you have a problem or you think you have a problem, regardless of what it is, it can be something as simple as phone addiction and that sort of thing. Being present makes all the difference, whether that's with your, your partner or with your friends, your family, whatever the case might be. If something is taking you away that's not adding value, then why are you doing It needs to add, things need to add value in your life. We went through the whole minimalism phase when The Minimalist documentary came out. It was more to me than just getting rid of stuff. Obviously, I got rid of a ton of things. We downsized from a 2,400-square-foot house to a 1,000-square-foot apartment and still have too much space. We probably get rid of one of our rooms. But the idea of getting rid of things that didn't add value in my life, things or people, relationships that I was like, "You know what? This is toxic. I'm just hanging around as your punching bag to throw things off of." And it's like, this isn't healthy. Healthy for you or for me, go talk to a therapist, someone that can help you with these things. It's not that I don't want to listen to you, it's just I'm getting you nowhere. I'm not benefiting you in any way. So again, yeah, the whole idea, just getting it out open, getting comfortable with discomfort, and just kind of, you know, being your best you when you can.

I want you to let me know your biggest takeaway from today's episode. Whether that's you sharing it on social or emailing me, DMing me, whatever that looks like to you, please let me know. I want this to be a place where you come to learn and grow, feel connection, build relationships. So please reach out. I can't wait to connect with you soon.