Married Then Divorced With 3 Kids

Welcome to my podcast, The Girl with the Red Door. I'm Kristjana Hillberg, your host. November was fun, kicking off with National Adoption Month and covering various aspects. Now it's time to divulge into some mom shit. My next two guests are badass moms. Not that I don't think dads and animal moms are cool too, but these women in particular are some of my faves.

I'm so excited you get to hear their stories. Let's do it!

Okay, this first mama and I have been friends since the days of Backstreet Boys and riding your bikes to the nearest Wayside to eat the best chili fries around. She's always been tough and resilient, but this last year has been hard as hell for her, and she came out on top, which is not surprising. Here is MC.

How are you?

Hey, I'm good. I'm good. Oh, I'm so good.

I know, when I sent you the text message, the last text I sent you was like a year ago. I was like, yeah, I'm a bad— I'm like, sorry, this happened. Like, I know we've like talked and stuff because obviously like through social media and whatever, but over our text messages, I was like, how is this even possible that I haven't sent her a text in a year?

But I know, well, and you don't post things enough online either.

What? I feel like I post way too much.

Um, really? Do you know who you're talking to?

It's like twice a day.

I'm like, I post— I, uh, well, I mean, Insta Stories now is a little bit easier, but you know, I don't— I just kind of document my life, which I guess maybe it's not a good thing. But anyway, it's so good.

It's so good to talk to you too. Let's just, let's just start right away. I want to talk about everything, but let's talk about you. Let's tell me about yourself. Let's talk about growing up, like everything. Let's just start from the beginning.

Okay.

Um, so I was born in Iowa actually, which is totally random. My dad was in like dental school, but then we moved to Winslow, Arizona where my mom was from when I was like 8 months old. So I grew up in Winslow, Arizona, small town, um, northern Arizona. And, um, so my mom's entire family lived there, a lot of extended family. I grew up with a lot of cousins, a lot of aunts and uncles, um, like my mom's parents lived there. So a lot of family, um, grew up, uh, like Mormon or LDS or however you want to say it. And so So like family was a big deal already and that made it more so, I guess you could say. I grew up doing sports. I have 3 older brothers and a younger sister. My mom was a music teacher there and my dad was a dentist there. Yeah, I grew up doing sports and music and church things and loved being around people. And then after high school, I moved down to Mesa to go to school for a couple of years and I ran track and cross country for Mesa Community College. And then, yeah, and then I fell in love with a guy who um, was going into the military. And so I started dating him, and we went through boot camp together, and I wrote him every day. And then he proposed to me the first time I saw him after 13 weeks, right before he graduated from boot camp. And then, yeah, like, I know, like, I haven't seen him for a long time, and then he proposed to me. Um, it was kind of funny because he couldn't, like, get on one knee or like any PDA or anything because he was in his uniform and it was like right after boot camp. And so he was still raw from everything and there were a bunch of drills, like drill instructors everywhere, so he didn't want to get in trouble. So I was bawling my eyes out just standing there and he was like, I'm all, I'm like, can you like hug me or something? He's like, you're like, great, let's shake hands. I know it was, it was pretty weird, but whatever, it was, uh, it was fine. And then we were going to get married a year later and like a month after he was just like, hey, if I get time off for Christmas, well, like, let's get married then. And I was like, okay. So, so that's what we did. So it was like, I don't know, 8 weeks or something like that. We kind of just threw it all together. It turned out fine. And Then I moved across the country to Pensacola, Florida, because that's where he was stationed.

I forgot, I forgot about that part.

So yeah, yeah. So I got married and moved away from everything and everyone, like, and was a military wife. And that was the beginning of a long journey. And so lived there for 6 months, and then he got stationed somewhere else. And then for a few months, and then he got stationed in San Diego. And so we were in San Diego for the last 3 years of his enlistment. So we went from one, one side of the country to the other. And he got deployed a couple of times. The first time he got deployed was when our first kid Clayton was 9 months old. So he missed his first birthday. He missed him like walking and, and all that stuff. Um, so I didn't see him.

What is your advice? What is your advice for wives preparing for deployment? And I mean for myself too, but for, uh, you know, other people listening. But Kurt's about ready to deploy in February and I'm like when is it gonna feel real? Like, I— it doesn't seem real quite yet.

Yeah, um, I don't know. I mean, I think everyone's kind of different, but— and, and you, you know what's happening, you know it's gonna happen, and you just kind of do what you gotta do, really. I mean, you, you're strong, and you're a strong woman. Like, you you know how to do things by yourself and you kind of just suck it up and do, you know, I, I don't know if I'm really good at advice with that.

Of course you are.

And make sure, like, make sure that you have a good, like, support system, like, make sure that you're involved with things and stay busy and like, make sure that you have people around you that know what's going on. So that they can help you, you know, and be willing. I think I've had to learn to be willing to accept help from people because you want to be able to do things on your own. You know, you want to be like, okay, you know, I can do this. And maybe that's a pride issue too. I mean, I think we all kind of have.

Oh, absolutely. I can totally see myself being like, no thanks, I've got it. And then like crying at home.

Yeah, no, I'm good. The next day you're like, you remember how you asked if I could? Yeah, I actually need that. Thanks.

Yeah.

Accepting help, I think, is, is something to, to learn. But just make sure you stay busy and stay connected to the other person that's there, you know, or, you know, the person who's deployed, like, make sure that you're doing everything you can to stay connected with them because it's a long-distance relationship. That's what it becomes, you know, and like, that's hard for anybody. You know, let alone people who are separated for months and months and months. It's not just a like, oh, I'm not going to see you for a couple of days type thing. It's like, I'm not going to talk to you for a really long time. And like, look, like, here we go. You know, let's see how this goes.

I think that that's, that's one of the hardest things right now, trying to switch my mindset because we lived across the state from each other for over a year. But we still saw each other, you know, every weekend or every other weekend, and we, you know, talked every day. And so this will be the, the first time that we've gone— I mean, I think the longest we've ever gone is 3, 4 weeks of not seeing each other. So preparing myself for 8 months of that, I'm like, hmm, do you just, you know, think about it and take it the day by day?

I, I think you kind of have to, you know, and I think that I got— there were times where I definitely got like offended by things that people said, but they weren't intentionally trying to make me feel bad about things, you know. Like I would be around people and they'd be complaining about their, their husbands or something because their husband was home and, and doing this and making a mess and stuff. And I was like just, you know, sitting next to them, right?

At least your husband's home.

At least he's home, like, you know, or, you know, like just stuff like that. But I, I, it seems like it was such a long time ago, like though I, you know, it's haven't been, we haven't been in the military for a really long time.

And so how old was Clayton when he got back?

Uh, so he was like 18 months was he 18 months, something like that.

Okay.

Yeah. And then 6 months later, he got deployed again. And I found out the first week that he was gone that I was pregnant again. And so the first— that, that deployment was shorter. So the first 6 months of my pregnancy with Piper, um, he was gone.

Okay.

And yeah, so by When he came back, I had a big old belly.

Yeah, here I am. Let's give birth.

I was like, hey, how's it going? But it was good that he was back for that because I know that there are people that miss— you miss things, you know what I mean? But you try and document as much as you can or just try and stay in contact as much as you can and stuff. But, um, yeah, so then he got deployed that second time and then he was, he was back.

And was becoming a mom of two— did that, uh, how do I say it? I've heard moms say like becoming a mom of one was fine, but then once you have two it gets like chaotic, and then with three it gets easy again because you're just so used to everything.

I feel like That just depends on the type of kids that you have, because some people can have a really hard time with one and then the second one is fine, or they'll have like a really easy time with the first one but then their second kid is a terror or something, you know. I think it just depends on the personalities of your kids.

Yeah, I guess that's true. Um, you're so wise. Yeah, I'm like, tell me.

Whatever. Yeah, I, um, and I mean, like, I think every stage in kids' upbringing is, is— there are hard things in each age, honestly. And like, because newborn babies are hard because you don't know what the heck they need, but then they get older and they tell you what they need, but then they become stubborn, or they, you know, that's this and this and this, and I mean, I think that each of my kids kind of have rough edges sometimes, right?

Don't worry, that's so true. It's so true. I know, I, I more recently— I mean, even though I feel like when I had Lil, I was— I made it a point to be like open and just like, okay, I'm gonna accept and love and nurture everything that she is, everything, you know, that she's interested in. And it's funny because As she gets older, I've, I've like questioned things. Like she told us a couple months ago that she was over dance. She doesn't like dance anymore. And I'm like, are you sure though? Because like, you dance around the house like all the time. And I just feel like you aren't really over dance. And she's like, no, I, I really am. And I'm like, oh, well, let's just like think about this. Even though You know, there's really no point in me pushing her because she's not stoked to go to dance. So, you know, then ended her, her dance for now. But I'm like, you know what, that's totally fine.

It's fine, Chris.

Like, whatever she's into, she's into, and that's okay. We're just here to support her and, you know, be there for whatever it is that she's into at the time, and that's fine, right?

I think that becoming a mom, I thought that it would kind of just come so easily to me because I had grown up with so much family and like I babysat as a teenager and everything. I just thought that it would be so easy. And then I had a baby and I felt like I was just, just stuck at home with a new baby, like, and I just felt like I— you, you don't really go to parks with a newborn baby unless you have another baby that's like playing at the park, you know. So I think that in that sense, when, when I had Piper, we were on Clayton's schedule because Clayton was, was almost 3 when I had her. And so we were out doing things, but I had a baby on me, but we were still out doing things. And so I think that it kind of made me feel more of more of a mom, I guess. That sounds terrible, but with the second one, because I, I wasn't just kind of just stuck, right?

Oh yeah, it doesn't really make sense. I think for me, I just, I toted her everywhere I went all the time, to like work, to work out, everywhere. And she just came everywhere with me. And so I think with this, with Stone, I feel more like how you felt for your first kid. I like, I feel stuck in my house. I never go anywhere. I literally feel like I'm breastfeeding 12 hours a day.

Like, yeah, or in a room if we're somewhere else, you know?

And then I'm like, I gotta go feed my baby, and then I have to get up and go into another room. And, and I think for Lil too, I'm like, we're kind of on baby's schedule, which is You know, I guess good and bad. She, she gets to learn how to share her time and to not be an only child. But I think it's also hard because she's like, I'm 6, we could be out doing a bunch of things and we're, you know, at home with the baby. So yeah, it's been interesting, like switching back.

And I, I think that the age, age differences too makes a difference, you know, with like the multiple children. She's in school all day.

Yeah.

Now, isn't she? Like, and so You are, you are stuck with the baby like at home like all day, you know, that's so it kind of is backwards from mine I guess for sure.

Um, what else as far as like being a mom, what do you think are the biggest challenges but also the biggest rewards?

I know, I know, it's already time for a break. But it's time to learn about one of our sponsors. All right, let's get back to Mary Katherine.

I think it's, it's so fun watching your kids learn something new or like accomplish something like Um, seeing the look on Clayton's face when he was so proud of himself for like riding his bike without training wheels for the first time was like, it was awesome. And he was so proud of himself. I think seeing your kids proud of something that they've done is, it just makes it all worth it.

Oh yeah.

You know, because, because it's hard. Like parenting is hard. Being a mom. Is hard. Like, and I don't think that, that I realized that. And I, I say to my mom all the time, I say, I'm sorry when I knocked on your door when you said I need to go in my room for 5 minutes and lay down, and I would knock on your door saying someone's calling you or someone's at the door or anything, and you just came out super poised and you're like, okay, this is it. I apologize for doing that because I tried doing that and it doesn't work at my house because it probably didn't work when I was growing up.

I know, I always wondered that same thing this I was literally about ready to pop with Stone and I told Lil, girlfriend, I just need to rest for like 10 minutes just in complete silence in the dark.

Yep.

And about every 30 seconds there was like a knock at the door or like she had to tell me something. She forgot to tell me something and I like broke down. That was like, it's probably my first time ever like breaking down in front of her. And I was like, I'm so tired.

I just need to sleep.

And then afterwards I was like, okay. I'm so sorry about that. But I was like, you know, sometimes you just need to sleep. I'm like, I— we're so busy all the time. We're going to the pool and we're riding our bikes and we're cooking dinner and, you know, working in the garden. I'm like, so sometimes, because the baby is, is taking a lot of my energy, sometimes I just need to rest. And she was like, okay, that's fine, which I'm sure— I don't know if she really got it, but I mean, right? She was like, she was probably just like, but at least she said it. And she's probably like, okay, I get it, I'll leave you alone, bye, see you later.

I'll come back when my mom is who I think she is, right? When you're back to normal, Mom.

Right.

Well, I also think that you can relate a little bit, um, when you're parenting alone, whether your husband's deployed or whether you're divorced or whatever, um, right? I think that you, you kind of have to just be a little bit more real because you're the only one there at the time. And so you're like, listen, it's just us right now. I need this from you. So I mean, I think that I've just kind of held her to that standard ever since she was little. I mean, ever since she was like 2 and a half. Not that I, I guess, ever expected anything from her that wasn't age appropriate, but I, you know, I was just always so upfront and honest with, with her and, and what needed to happen because it was just us two.

Right. Which is fantastic. I mean, I think it's, I think that being open and honest with your kids is, is the best way to go about doing, I don't, doing that, you know, my kids have seen me cry on multiple occasions and And they know that mom just cries sometimes, you know, and that's just when mommy needs a little break and come back and talk to me in another 5 minutes and then it's fine.

Oh, totally. We just— have you heard of the book Dear Girl? Oh my gosh, you need to get it. But there's this one part in there and I loved this, but it just says, Dear girl, sometimes you just need a good cry. Sometimes you'll need a friend. Sometimes you'll need to be alone. Sometimes you'll need a tissue. Sometimes you'll need a bucket. And I love that they're teaching kids at such a young age that it's totally okay to cry and to feel sad about things because I— yes, absolutely. Because I think, you know, for, you know, certain times that you're told like, don't cry, buck it up, like you're fine, or whatever, and you could maybe feel like it's not okay to cry and it's not okay to be sad. And so I really loved that, that it, you know, talked about that, right?

That's awesome.

I love it.

I know, it's such a good book. When Lil and I read it together, we both kind of got teary, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so good.

She was like, I know, I just love it.

It's so cute. Um, so as far as like your kids right now have they started asking about you and their dad, or has that not really been talked about, or is it all the time talked about?

What, um, well, do I say the situation? Like, do I— do you want me to say what happened?

Yeah, if you want to.

Um, sure. Um, so a year and a half ago, I was 5 months pregnant with baby number 3.. And something was off. And for like a week, my— well, Kyle was weird. And I mean, there were other things, I guess, during the marriage. It wasn't like perfect, but it was what I signed up for and it was fine, you know. There were good moments and I finally sat him down and I was like, okay, like, what's up? What's going on? And he said he didn't love me anymore. And I said, okay, well, I can't do anything about that. And I said, do you want to be separated for a little while? And he said, no, I feel like that will just prolong the inevitable. And I said, okay, do you want to just start paperwork? He said, yeah. So I was 5 months pregnant with baby number 3, and we started divorce paperwork. Um, and I knew that it wasn't, um, okay to act differently around the kids. Um, like, he didn't move out for like 2 and a half months he didn't— yeah, he didn't move out. So that was in July and he didn't move out until September.

So you were about ready to have baby?

We were. So I— yeah, so I had a baby right before Thanksgiving. But, um, so I was— I was bigger, like, and we were living under the same roof for 2 and a half months after we had had this conversation, and I wasn't acting any differently in front of the kids. Like he was sleeping on the couch, but I was cooking him dinner, and I was doing this, and I was doing this, and he was just going out every night to do whatever he was doing. And I was putting the kids in bed, and he would come home whenever he'd come home. And, you know, I had a lot of family members calling me trying to give opinions on things, and I'm like, this is overwhelming, and I need this 'Just be between me and him.' Like, I need this to be friendly. I need this to be civil and okay. And I'm kind of— I'm a lover, you know, I don't pull the reins at all when it comes to like, loving somebody, you know, I was all in and it was a shock to my system and I was trying to figure out how to how to handle the situation, you know. I didn't know what to do. I thought, "Oh, we're gonna be best friends. This is gonna be fine. He just doesn't love me anymore." And I don't think that it really hit me until I had a bishop who referred me to a therapist. I'm like, "You know what? I'm fine. I'm not gonna need to talk to somebody about it. Like, it's fine." it's whatever. Um, but then I, um, when he moved out, I found out that he had been dating somebody and that he was dating somebody and that I had confronted him multiple times about it and he had like lied about it. So there, I mean, there's a whole bunch of other— it'd be a really, really long podcast if I told you every little detail of it, but So I found that out. And so I met her and I was 8 months pregnant when I met her. And I thought, okay, I'm going to be okay after I meet her. Things are just going to be fine and I'm just going to be over it. And I was nice when I met her and then I just was not okay. And I was— I did not feel good about myself, and I didn't want to see her, and I didn't want to be around them. Um, I, it— I think that it hit my, my self-esteem with like bad, um, the whole situation. I mean, I was pregnant when he left, and then he started seeing somebody else while I was pregnant, and, and I think that I mean, you don't feel great about yourself when you're pregnant anyways. And so I think that that really, um, it hurt and it was, it was hard. Um, and I didn't feel good about myself for a really, really long time. Um, and, um, I had the baby and he was at the hospital and he took me home. He came back to the hospital and took me home and dropped me off at my house and there I was and I walked in the door and I had 3 kids to myself and it was kind of baptism by fire and I just kind of had to figure out how to Do it. He is engaged now and stuff, but it's been a long road. But I saw a therapist for— now I guess I'm backtracking.

Oh, that's okay.

But I talked to my bishop again and I said, I think I need to start talking to somebody. And so he referred me again to a therapist and I walked into the therapist's office and he said, "Okay, what are we doing here?" And I said, "You don't know anything about my situation?" He said, "No." And so I told him what was going on and he just looked at me and said, "Whoa." And I think that that was when it finally hit me that Oh, this is a really bad situation going on right now. You know, I, I don't think it was until that point, months later, like after starting the process and going through the process for months that I don't think that it hit me until I had to say it to someone who didn't know me and say it to someone who didn't know him. Um, and—

But that was a lot of things. A lot of things at once. A lot of things in a short amount of time. That happened like all at once. And you were just, yeah, it sounds like you just kept telling yourself, I'm fine, I'm fine. Like, it'll all be fine. Even though it wasn't at all fine.

No, no. Well, and I think that I wanted it to be fine. I wanted it to just be okay. And I just wanted to just barrel through it and And I, it's, it was, it was rough. Like it was, I, I was nice through all of it and I'm, and I didn't want to not be nice about it because it wasn't going to be worth it, especially with, you know, divorce with, with no kids involved. You don't have to see the other person ever or be in contact with the person ever, but then divorce with kids involved. It's just a whole other ballgame. Oh yes, absolutely. You have to be— yeah, well, you know, like, you have to be in contact with this person and you're— this person's going to be in your life for a very long time still. It's not like everything is cut off, you know. And I think that I had to learn to, um, to push him completely away before I could let him in as just the parent of my kids. Does that make sense? Like, I had to push everything away, and I, I'm like, you can't talk to me this way, you cannot be talking to me and saying all these things. Like, I had completely pushed him away so that I could have him come a tiny bit back in as the dad of my kids. Um, and that took, that took a little while. But, um, I, I am a firm believer in, in counseling and therapy. I didn't think that, um, I, I had no experience with it, and I know that it has like just this negative stigma to it, and, and I think it's fantastic, and I think that everybody should go see a therapist.

Oh yeah, I am right there with you, sister.

Yeah, it's such a good thing to do even if things are perfectly fine, like someone else to listen to what's going on and to kind of talk you through things is an incredible thing. And yeah, it—

I know I've been in a therapy session too where all of a sudden I'm talking about something that like, I never, I'm like, where did that come from?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you just kind of, you just let it out and that person's there to just listen and talk you through it.

What's up everybody? This is Maya from The MW Projects wishing you all a happy holiday. I wanted to give you a quick update and let you know that Kristjana Hillberg and I have officially teamed up and I now stock the I Don't Like to Bullshit mug. You can check that out on my Etsy page, and on there you will also find Christmas ornaments, Christmas ornament sets, mugs, and new weaves that make great Christmas gifts for the people in your lives or for you. And remember, if you like something that you see but want it tweaked, let me know. I do custom orders too. And if you need additional information, you can find me on Facebook, Instagram, and Etsy as The MW Projects, and let's get connected. But for For now, Merry Christmas, and let's get back to the rest of the podcast.

Once I— once we started having— we had the talk, the talk, and then we started paperwork, but things weren't final until this past February because we had to wait for the baby to be born to start doing numbers for things.

And the court system just takes a while.

Right, you know, it all, it was a process. But I just had people rally around me as soon as I had the conversation. I messaged some friends and I said, I need you guys to know that this is happening, this is going on. And it was incredible how many people just opened their arms and were honestly like angels to me through the whole process and through everything. My— I didn't, you know, I didn't move back in with my parents because I have a support system here, and so I didn't want to, to move. And, um, and I'm glad that I didn't. But like, we had an anonymous person, um, from church come to, you know, to the the Relief Society president, so the president of like the women's group or whatever, saying that they wanted to take care of me and my kids for Christmas last year. And I have no— I had no idea who it was, um, and they just took care of us for Christmas last year. And I had people who left like gift cards on my doorstep and people bring— coming over randomly just to help out with the kids. And that's incredible, you know, it's like— I know, it was, it was amazing. And then I, um, I mean, I was a stay-at-home mom, and so how am I supposed to support my kids money-wise? Um, and I had a friend who is a speech-language pathology assistant, and she said, hey, you already have your associate's, um, from like 8 years ago. It's not in, in speech therapy, but, uh, she's like, you already have your associate's, like, why don't you just go get your certificate to be a speech-language pathology assistant? Like, that's what I am. And just do your certificate program and start working and, you know, get— start helping support those kids and stuff. And so, so I signed up for school. And so Liam was 8 weeks old when I, when I started school this January, and I'm almost done and I have a couple more weeks and that's really exciting.

Look at you.

But I know I'm trying so hard.

You are doing amazing. I'm literally sitting here being like, oh my gosh.

Whatever. No, no, I, I mean, you do what you got to do, you know? Like, you, you can't— I, I, I, I didn't— I didn't— not, not that I didn't have the time, but I couldn't just go lay in bed for 2 weeks or something after anything, you know, through any of the process. Every once in a while I had to go in my room and just sit there for a few minutes, but, but I had my kids and I couldn't just check out. Um, I wasn't ever able to do that, right? So I think just barreled through.

Yeah, during— it's so crazy to look back and, and see like all the emotions that were involved and everything that you went through, and it's— it really is just kind of shocking, but when we were going through that whole process, I was commuting back and forth to work for an—

oh my goodness—

28 different emotions like on my way there and then on my way back. A day like I had to keep my shit together because I was a clinical supervisor, so I was managing staff, and I was doing therapy with clients. And there was so much going on that I honestly just didn't even have time to lose it. And so the only time I had to lose it was in my car rides, you know. And so I just like— that time was the time, I think, for a year that I took to just like cry and be mad and be sad and all of the things But it's just so crazy to look back, you know, 4 years later and be like, oh wow, like I was just so out of it at that point or during that time.

Yeah, right. Yeah, I think that after everything was done, I— you look back and you're like, I survived it, like I made it, you know. I, I think that, I think that divorce is It's such a common thing and it's so sad. But I think that people just kind of think, oh, people get divorced all the time. It's just easy peasy, whatever. I don't think that you realize how hard it is and how much of a toll it takes on you at like every aspect of your life, you know, physically, mentally, everything. And I don't think that people realize how much of a toll it takes on you until you actually have to go through it and you think, this sucks. Oh yeah, this is the worst. Even if it's friendly, even if it's totally friendly, it's not. It's not right.

No, that's totally true. Even if both parties are willing to compromise and come to an agreement and everything's working out, it's still not— I don't even know the word for it. It's just Obviously it's not ideal, but it's just like, it is what it is. And you just— I think both sides just kind of make the best of it, and you just keep trucking on. And you make mistakes, and you, you know, you hurt each other in the process, and then you say sorry, and you like keep going. And it's— it, like you said, it sucks. Totally sucks. Um, how are the kids doing? How's Clayton? I mean, he was 5, right, when it all— when his dad moved out? Did he ask questions?

Um, so when the week before Kyle moved out, he— we like sat them down and I started crying and I was like, I can't tell them, you tell them. And so he said, hey, like, you guys are gonna go to Grandma's for the weekend, and when you get— when you get— get back, Dad's gonna be living in a new house. Um, and he's like, you guys are gonna be going back from Mom and Dad's house, you know, you'll have two houses, yada yada. And my kids are like, okay. Um, and it's their norm now, you know, they're, they're little and they— but, um, he has questions about stuff, you know. I think when, when their dad got engaged I made sure to tell them that that was happening. I said, okay, you know, he's getting— he's marrying her. And, and they were confused and they were like, so is he still going to be our dad? And I said, yes. And they said, are you still going to be our mom? And I said, yes, absolutely. Um, but I think every once in a while they, they'll ask something, but I don't think that it will really— they'll really understand it until they're older, but I'm glad that they're not the only kids who are part of broken families in their schools or something like that, because I think that that would make things harder, but it's their norm and they know, "Oh, I go to dad's house this time and I go to mom's house this time," and, you know.

Right. No, I get it.

And I'm sure there'll be more questions. And I make sure to let them know that they can ask me things anytime they want to. And every once in a while I said, hey, you know, do you guys have questions about anything? You know, and talking about divorce is very normal to them. They know that, you know, Mommy and Daddy are divorced. That means they're not married anymore and yada, yada, yada.

Right. When we were— I sold my house in Sioux Falls. And as I was packing and moving everything, you know, you have to just go through all of your stuff and declutter. And I was going through some things in the kitchen, and I had kept, um, mine and Ammon's like pictures in there from our like engagement session, and they, they fell out on the floor. And Lily was like, oh, like, what are these? And I was like, oh, you know, that's from when Daddy and I— before, before we got married, these were pictures that we took together. And she was like, can I keep them? And I was like, I mean, yeah, sure, sure. And so she like put them up on her like poster board. So she has like mine and Kurt's wedding picture, like Daddy and Lisa's wedding picture, and then me and Ammon in there. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. Like, it's kind of silly, but at the same time I'm like, you know what, she, she is— she was young enough but also old enough to like remember, you know. And right, and we talk about it. And like I said, I've always been open with her. And so I think so, she's just like, oh, this is, you know, when you, you did love each other, and I, I want to keep these. And I'm totally fine with that. But yeah, I think— I'm sure if like her friends go come over, you know, they've asked her about it, like, what's going on with all of these scattered pictures?

Yeah, who belongs to who in this, right?

And so she's definitely like—

she's—

I've even overheard her just being like, well, I have two moms and I have two dads and here they are and this is their picture and this is their picture. And I'm like, okay, well, I mean, she's just very like confident. And yeah, I love that. It's fun seeing— I mean, fun is probably not the right word, but I guess it's reassuring that she feels confident and secure and not scared or— and even if she did feel those things, I think we're both able to, you know, be open with her and she's always more than welcome to ask us anything, which I think you have to be almost like doubly open when you're in— when you live in, you know, split houses.

Right. Yeah. I make sure that my kids know that they can talk to me about anything. And I hope, I hope that they take me up on that for their entire life. And maybe some things I really don't want to talk to them about, but I want them to at least ask anyway, you know? Yeah, I've had to come to realize that like, you know, his fiancée is just another person to love my kids and I have to look at it that way that because, you know, Clayton has said, "Oh, you know, she's in our family now too." And I just say, "Yep, you have a lot of people that love you, buddy." You know, because it's true, you know, I, they, it's just another person to, to love the kids.

Absolutely.

So I, I'm trying to think of it that way, I guess. Oh my gosh, girl, thanks.

You have been through so much in the last year. I, I, well, I don't even know what to say.

You had a crazy ride. Like, it's been a crazy ride. And I, and I think recently Honestly, recently I finally mentally got to like a good spot with myself. It took a long time, like, and I, um, it was just one day I saw them together, like, you know, we were at a— we were all at basketball games together for Clayton, and, and I just saw them together, and I saw her, and I just looked at her, and then I thought to myself wait a second, I, I'm pretty rad. Like, I'm a pretty cool person and I feel confident about my body and I feel confident about who I am. And I'm like, I don't want to be who she is. I don't want to be that person. Like, I'm confident with myself and I, and I, I like, I love myself. And it took a long time for me to get to that point again. And it has been like the best thing to, you know, to have that epiphany moment and be like, wait a second, I'm a— I'm an important person. Like, I'm okay with myself, and that's great. Oh yes.

Like, it's complete bullshit that we are the hardest on ourselves. Completely. Because I mean, really, ever since I've known you for however many years, 15, 16 years, I've always been like 'Oh my gosh, Mary Katherine, like, she is the coolest girl. You're always so upbeat and so friendly and you always are just— I always, always, always loved you and wanted to be near you.' And so for me to hear that you even questioned that for a second just makes my heart hurt. But, I mean, I, I understand because I feel like it's a lot to go through and I'm sure you I mean, your mind just probably goes in 7,000 directions, and it's hard to sometimes get hold of it again and, and remember.

Yeah, and I mean, I'm not my— I'm scatterbrained anyway, and I have my brains on overload anyway. And so when everything was happening, I'm like, my— I'm going to explode. Like, my brain is not— I can't take it. I can't do it anymore. And so I kind of had to You know, my, my family has, has said, well, like, you went through a trauma because let's be real, that's, that's what it was. That's what it is. You know, it, it was a—

you have to—

it was a trauma for my brain.

Like, you have to— I mean, it's a loss. Like, you have to grieve and you have to— absolutely lost, you know, a best friend and you— your marriage ended. And yeah, there's a lot A lot going on there. Yeah. Thank you. I'm so glad that you, you know, decided to chat with me and were so open and honest and opening your heart. I know that it's sometimes raw and it hurts a little bit to bring it up again, so thank you so much.

You're welcome. Thanks for letting me talk to you about it.

Talking to Mary reminded me of Cheryl Strayed's Brave Enough Quotebook. If you don't have it, buy it, or borrow it, or somehow get those words into your life. It's like reading everything you've ever wanted to tell yourself. Here's one to remember: Nobody's going to do your life for you. You have to do it yourself, whether you're rich or poor, out of money or raking it in, the beneficiary of ridiculous fortune or terrible injustice. And you have to do it no matter what is true, no matter what is hard, No matter what unjust, sad, sucky things befall you, self-pity is a dead-end road. You make the choice to drive down it. It's up to you to decide to stay parked there or to turn around and drive out. Surprise! We all have shit. Fight like hell. Make the choice to rise back up. Be there for each other and remember you are not alone. Life is hard as it is. Each one of us experiences things so differently. Go easy on one another and never assume you know someone's story or how they feel. Instead, just ask and truly listen. Thanks for tuning in. Happy December! I'm sending you love wherever you are and hope that the holidays fill your spirit with love, happiness, joy, and humility. God bless each of you. Talk with you next week.