Part 2: Laid Off

I'm Paul Shipper. I'm from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I'm a storyteller, a civil rights activist, and a photographer. Right now, the South Dakota Penitentiary System does not have a pen pal program, but the studies show that recidivism drops when inmates are writing letters back and forth to someone. And it's because they may not have a connection inside the prison, and having that connection outside motivates them to do better and I feel like that's the little thing that I can do, like the one thing that I can accomplish, you know, and hopefully other people are working on other things and this will be my change to carve out. You can end up in the, in the system and then be relegated to a second-class citizen, and that to me is terrifying for anyone to have to deal with. I don't believe that we should judge someone by the worst thing that they've done. We shouldn't tell just that story. I have a voice where they no longer have a voice, and I don't want to tell their story, but I want to offer my resources and my abilities to give them the chance to change the situation that they're in. So I recognize that I have a responsibility as someone that is capable of making change to help make that change.

Welcome to my podcast, The Girl with the Red Door. I'm Kristjana Hillberg, your host. Here you'll get to listen to stories from people who divulge real and raw experiences on all different topics. You get 9 lives on your journey here on Earth. Which one are you living?

Hi love, I hope you had a fantastic week and ate yummy snacks at your Super Bowl party yesterday. Today I am driving across the state in 3-degree weather, so send warm and safe vibes. You know I don't like to bullshit, so here's part 2 of my convo with Paul.

All of South Dakota's top talent leaves South Dakota the first opportunity they get, and these, these places are like making programs. Like, I know people that are working specifically to solve this problem, and I feel like the solution is staring them in the face where it's like, hey, pay me better and let me have a little bit of autonomy. And exactly, if that were the case, then people wouldn't move away, you know. And I think, I think that hostility toward, um, self-management and self-regulation really push people out, you know, because there are people in California right now, like LA, and yeah, they're famous, but like, they're recording podcasts and making enough money to live, you know, they're— that's their job. And, you know, why isn't that attainable in South Dakota? You know, how, if, if the cost of living is so astronomically larger in California, how is that not feasible here? And it's because nobody is willing to pay people what they're worth. And I think that's really frustrating. And I think the, the pool of talent in Sioux Falls is, is actually large enough that, yeah, people are pretty replaceable, like You know, you, you— and I hate that mentality because it's like you burn out an employee and then you get a new one and you burn that one out and you just cycle through and there's no regard for longevity. There's no regard for, you know, well, maybe having a well-paid, happy employee is better than having, you know, a cheap, sad employee.

Right.

No, I feel like like how you were talking about earlier. I almost feel like it's still in the mindset of like, you put in your hours, like that's how you earn.

Yeah, respect.

Like, you are here, you know, from 8 to 5, and you sit in your desk, and that's like your time, you know what I mean? Everybody owes that, you know. You have to work there for 30 years, and that's how you gain, right? I don't know, it's a weird— I've worked in a couple places that I feel like that's just the mindset. Or they'll say, sorry, like, you don't have a degree in that. I'm like, you're right, but I also— like, you can't teach me how to have empathy. You can't teach me how to be a really awesome person to your clients. Like, you can't teach me those things. And guess what? I'm awesome at it. So I can offer you this. Yeah, maybe I don't have 10 years of college education, but I do.

That's the thing is I'm a results-oriented person. Like, hey, my resume doesn't say that I can do this, but if you let me do it and I show you that I did it, then why does my resume need to reflect that? Like, if I can, if I can prove that I can accomplish the tasks that you need, you know, what, what's— why is that so important to you? And I think it's just that old mentality. Like, I think I think that's why South Dakota is, you know, experiencing this brain drain is because people aren't receptive to the idea of results-oriented, uh, you know, goals. Like it is like, no, no, you work 8 hours because everybody works 8 hours. And it's like, well, why are we working 8 hours if there's only 2 hours worth of work? Like that doesn't, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

You know, no, I, I get, I totally understand and I hear ya, but I also feel like I've seen, at least in the past, like year, I've seen some pretty cool, like up and coming things in South Dakota where I'm like, oh heck yeah, like where has this been? You know, why hasn't it been here before? Because guess what? Again, on the coasts, like that's been around for 10 years.

Right.

You know, or even like, I think about it, and I think probably because I have kiddos and I think about, you know, them living a creative, happy life, I'm just like, you know, I want those opportunities for Lily. I want her to be able to— oh, there's somebody who's teaching like sushi making. Okay, great, for 7-year-olds, she should be able to go to that, or whatever. And so I just, I, I see that there's, you know, creativity coming, but it's just we work at such like a turtle, a turtle pace where— and I feel like it's not enough, not enough creatives, uh, they're not— it's like such a little percentage. So when the creatives are like, hey, I have this amazing idea, it's still the older generation that's like, nope, sorry, not yet.

You know, and I think a big part of that is that we, we don't have unions, you know. Uh, why isn't there a union for video editors? And, and that really boggles me that, you know, if, if suddenly everybody stopped showing up for work, um, that's a video editor, they couldn't hire enough people to, to occupy all that, you know. So But the thing is, like, no one person is willing to, like, stand up and say, like, this is bogus. Like, why is it like that? You know, nobody wants to risk their semi-comfortable, albeit miserable life for it. But then I talk to so many people where they're like, yeah, I come home and I'm tired and I don't want to do anything. And I'm miserable. And it's like I have this creative idea, but I don't have the energy to put into it. And so that's actually a big part of why I've been burnt out lately is I'm working on this major project. I got a grant and a fellowship and I just have such little time and energy to dedicate to it. And it's something that I actually care about, but because I'm working, I'm turning 2 hours worth of work into 8 hours worth of work. All day, I'm, I'm miserable. And, you know, that's really how it works. Like, you might hand me a project and I could get it done in 2 hours, but because I have to be there for 8 hours, that's how long I'm going to take. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to drag my feet. But, um, at the end of the day, you know, I'm, I come home tired and I don't, I want to, I just want to sit on the couch and watch a little bit of reality TV and turn my brain off, you know, and I have not been experiencing that turn my brain off feeling at all since I have been unemployed. Like, I haven't been watching TV at all. Um, you know, I've, I've literally been like doing projects, uh, catching up with people, having meetings, going to interviews, stuff like that. So that I think is a major selling point to me is the fact that I don't feel like, I don't feel like kicking my feet up, you know, I, I feel like working, like I, I'm excited to work. And I think that is a huge difference. So I think that podcast idea that I'm, I was telling you about, like a, a support network, a connect network. I think that's like a, a proto, like, you know, this will probably get me into a lot of trouble, but like, I already talked about unions a little bit, but like, ideally I want to start a creatives union in Sioux Falls. Like, hey, everybody go on strike from your production job and demand better wages and better hours and more autonomy. And like, I know that's— if I had a magic wand, that's what I would do, essentially.

Oh yeah.

Well, and I think at least there should be like You should be able to prove. And really, if you, if you're such a great employee, you know, that they tell you, we love you, you're such a great employee, well then great. Like, let me show you that I can still be great when I'm not at the office. And guess what? You don't have to pay for my desk, you don't have to pay for my computer because I have that at my house. Like, there's so many amazing benefits for both sides that I feel like we're just in this little bubble and—

It's just like fashion and music and whatever else, you know, it starts on the coast and then it works its way in 20 years later. So I think that South Dakota needs to get its act together. Like we have a lot, we are the land of opportunity that is being squandered, you know, there is so much talent and so much creativity here that isn't being utilized, and it's because everyone is tired and miserable. And, you know, I, I obviously I'm projecting that a little bit, but it's true. Like, I've talked to a number of people in the past week who just say like, yeah, I hate my job. Oh, my employee— my employer treats me like crap. And that's like a through line in my entire life, is like they always say like, work hard and you'll be rewarded. But I've I don't think I've been appreciated at any job I've ever had. Like, I've worked well beyond my value or my pay. I've provided more value than what I've been paid for in every job I've ever been in. And I never, you know, it's, it's so rare to get like a thank you, even like, let alone a raise, you know?

Right.

So I actually had that thought, um, last week as I was recording with my friend who is in London, and I was thinking, because she does freelance, and so, you know, she just works directly with the clients, whatever they want, and she has a deadline, whatever she delivers, and then it's done. So I was, I was wondering, I was like, you know what, I've never felt kind of like what you said. I never feel like I've been compensated, but I wonder if it's just because I'm such a passionate person that No matter what job I'm in, I am in like full heart.

Oh yeah, 100%.

Everything. And so when they are just like, oh, nice job, Kris, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, like my whole heart and soul is in this job. Like I'm wondering, I'm like, huh, maybe not everybody is like that. Like maybe people just go in half-assed and it really doesn't bother them. But because I'm so passionate, no matter what I do, I jump in entirely.

And so I'm like, huh, I've done a lot of different— I've worn a lot of different hats in my life, you know. I, I used to be a janitor, then I was a barista, I worked as a banker, I made car commercials, you know, like I— but before I did any of those things, I hadn't done them, you know. But I, I jumped in and I learned it, and I became, you know, everywhere I went, I was the best at what I did. You know, when I was a banker, I had the number one cross-sell in all of South Dakota for 2013, and I had zero financial background. But it's like I learned how to do what I was supposed to do and did it well. But yeah, that being said, you know, I got a little plastic trophy for that and it's like, oh, do you know how much money I probably made that bank that year? Like, just ludicrous amounts, right? And It's just, this is me getting a little political again, but like, I'm really sick of people saying like, well, you know, the boss makes the most money because they're the most valuable. And it's like, no, the people on the front lines are the most valuable. And I've done a lot of reading on Toyota. They created this management style called lean manufacturing. Which I thought it was an acronym, but it's not. But it basically just gives all of the power to the workers. If a factory line worker says, "We need to stop the assembly line so that we can fix this problem," then you need to listen.

Oh yeah, I love that.

It's because the person that is on the ground doing the work knows what is needed to do the work. Whereas a person up in an office all day who, you know, has management experience but doesn't know anything about manufacturing or doesn't know anything about video editing can sit there and be like, well, no, I think this is the right decision. And it's like, well, no, this is the right decision. And I'm telling you because I've been doing it for the last 5 years and I know what I'm talking about. And so Toyota in the '80s became the, like, one of the top-rated, uh, car manufacturers in the world. Their employees were happier than any other manufacturing employees, uh, like, just all these— their, their safety ratings went up. Like, it just— once they handed power over to the workers, uh, everything got better for that company, and they're still one of the top companies in the world right now. And I think if people would learn from that model and say like, hey, maybe my employees aren't stupid. Maybe my employees aren't gonna half-ass it. Maybe my employees actually give a shit. You know, uh, they would get better results.

Well, yeah, no, and like you talked about earlier, I think a lot of people, um, you know, remain in that mindset like, it's my idea, I'm top dog. Yeah, it's just like this powerful— but I mean, I've definitely met some CEOs who've been, you know, just the opposite. Like, you know, like, I'm smart, there's exceptions, I've hired smarter, you know. Like, the whole point is to like hire smarter people to run your company and run it well, you know. And I'm like, heck yeah. Like, for those people who can truly know how to like connect with other humans, and because you have to like put yourself in, in those shoes to be like, okay, as an employee, what do I want? What do I want my boss to be like? And I think that when employers do that, it changes the entire work culture. And it's 100%, you know, so it's amazing. And I love that this just kind of like unfolded into this working, you know, talking about work on the podcast, because I am just— yeah, just recently in the past like year and a half, because Kurt is in the military, and I'm like, you know, it's gonna be shitty to go from base to base and try and apply for jobs, not because I don't enjoy doing that. I actually love interviewing. It's like one of my favorites.

I'm really good at interviewing. It's fun.

Yeah, and I'm like super personable, and I usually end up getting the job. But it's that whole like, oh my gosh, like I just want to have my own time. Like I want to be able to like work for 3 hours in the morning, get shit done, and then be able to go to the pool in the afternoon with my kids, or to run and grab coffee with a friend, or just sit and read a book. Because If, you know, if I'm at a desk job, then I'm just—

what is this all for? If not that, why, why, why am I working 45 to 50 hours a week so that I can spend the other, you know, 40 hours a week that I have to myself miserable and, and without energy and, you know, all this stuff? It's like, or, um, people talk about saving for retirement. People talk about working really hard and busting your ass so that you can, you know, do what you want to do. And it's like, well, what if I just did what I wanted to do?

Hey everybody, this is Maya from The MW Projects. I hope you all had a good holiday and a great start to the new year. Just wanted to hop on here quick and let you know that the shop is back open and ready for new orders, so definitely reach out and let's get connected. Now let's get back to the episode.

Gosh, I wish I had the energy to do this. Or, oh man, I'd love to go to the gym, but I just don't have the time.

You know, it's like you're living in like this dread, anxious— like, I remember on Sunday night, even Sunday like midday, I would start being like, fuck, yeah, I gotta go to work tomorrow. Yeah, it would like almost like ruin your day. Like, yeah, that sounds so dumb, but it's just like, no, that's true.

And I'm very much like that where it's like, I try to limit myself to like 1 or 2 things a day, so to speak, where it's like, I'm podcasting with you right now. And then I have a job interview at noon. And after that, like, I don't wanna do anything. I've done something today, you know, like, now I need to stop. So like, I think about that in terms of like Sundays where it's like, Okay, you know, my Sunday is almost over and that means that tomorrow is back to the grind and I— that sucks, you know, like that's such a crappy mentality and I, I don't— I definitely don't feel like I'm alone and I feel like, I feel like this is the rule, not the exception. And I feel like if that's the case, that to me means the system is broken. And so it's like, okay, if the system is broken, how do we fix it? How do we make it work for people? You know, because it's not working for people right now. Our economy is in shambles. Our health is the worst that it's been in decades. You know, we're just— our mental health is the worst that it's been in decades. You know, so something's got to give, essentially.

I was actually just— yeah, I was talking to one of my girlfriends out in California yesterday, and she was like, more people, more employers need to focus on delivering like mental health services to their employees. Because then guess what? You have happier, healthier employees who are willing to put in, you know, more work. And I totally get it. I'm like, some days you just need to talk to somebody else, whether that's a therapist, a counselor, uh, you know, an approved board member, whoever it is. Like, it's so therapeutic and amazing. And I feel like if bigger— any, actually not even bigger, any company would just put more, uh, put more emphasis in that area, we would start thriving. Well, because we're just— we just like shake it off.

Absolutely. And so, and so it's kind of like the— my podcast idea where like I love being a support, I love helping other people accomplish their goals and dreams. And so I would totally You know, if I was— if I felt appreciated and I felt fairly compensated and I felt autonomous, I have no problem working for the man, so to speak. Like, I'm not going to— I'm not going to be surly about that if my needs are met.

And the older I get, the more it's important to me. When I was 18, I guess I didn't really like I just pushed and pushed and pushed. I went to school, I went to work, I partied, I was, you know, doing all the things, and I didn't really like stop and think, okay, am I grounded? Am I taking care of myself? But now that I'm almost 30, it's so important to me that I'm like, okay, let's take time. And yeah, you know, I want to take care of myself, you know. Exactly. And so I think that more people, it just needs to just needs to be talked about. But at the same time, you can't— I feel like we talk and talk and talk about shit and then nothing ever happens.

So, right, and that's why I'm trying, trying to do something about it and trying incrementally, like, really emphasize that any little change is, is better than no change.

And hopefully— and I'm sure there's so many people, like, watching you that you don't know about, you know, that you could be their they're like shining light, you know, that they're like, you know what, Paul's doing it, like I'm gonna do it, or whatever. And so, and I do love that. I love that just our little tiny acts that we don't think is— are making an impact, there's somebody always watching you. And not in a creepy way, maybe that too, but you know, there's always somebody watching you and looking up to you, and, and you being that, you know, that driving force to help them make that step.

If I can convince you of one thing to do this year, it's quit your desk job. Find your passion. What lights you on fire? Do that. I promise you, nothing is more worth the time you get to spend with your family and friends. Time is something you can never get back. Why waste it somewhere where you don't feel valued or driven? Just think about it. If you ever need encouragement, I'm a phone call away. I wanted to remind you that you can help support the podcast. It's kind of like a monthly subscription. It helps me purchase quality recording equipment so I can keep bringing you amazing guests with great content. If you decide that's something you want to do, it's totally optional. You can go to the Anchor app and click support. Easy peasy. Happy February, the month of love and whatever the hell else you want it to be filled with. Always thinking of you. Talk soon.