What The F*ck Is Enneagram

First live podcast interview. Here we go. Welcome to The Red Door. Rebranded, transfigured, same mantra. Here to give you a voice, sharing real stories, raw, unfiltered, no bullshit. I'm your host, Kristjana Hillbergberg. Kristjana Hillberg. If you're new here, welcome to the party. If you've been here before, welcome back. I've been away for a minute. Thanks for putting me back in your ears. Everything happens for a reason. I am a big believer in this, always have been. You know when somebody comes into your life and you are just like Yes, like a resounding yes. You are this incredible person. Where have you been all my life? And also simultaneously feeling like you've known them forever and just immediately feel comfortable with them and feel safe, which is such a great feeling. This next guest is one of those. She came into my life a few months ago. And we slowly became friends and then bonded over coffee, and it has just continued to blossom into this really special friendship, which I am super grateful for. We could just talk for hours and hours, but today I promise we're only giving you about an hour of our time. You're welcome. You'll definitely hear from her again. Today we're talking about Enneagram, which I had never heard of before. She has been teaching me a little bit about it, and we just get into a discussion about the Enneagram and about life in general. I hope you enjoy the show. Let's talk about Enneagram. I know nothing about it. Tell me everything.

I would love to. So, um, the Enneagram, for those who are new as well, is an ancient personality assessment tool. It's a lot of words, but it's not just a personality test. It's a tool, and it's not something that was created 20 years ago. It's ancient. Like, it's dated back so far that I can't even find like where it really began.

Okay.

So I love that, and it's just been passed down, you know, orally first of all from years and years ago, and then on tablets, and then from tablets to books, and now it's just like a huge craze because people are finding a ton of value in understanding themselves better, and then it allows you to better understand the world around you, which is just kind of your sphere of people in your circles. So from your— in your home, outside into your friend group, into your workplace, your parents, your sisters and brothers, you know, all of that. It's like 9 basic types.

Okay.

With a wing one way or the other. So it ends up being there's technically 27 different types of people in the world is kind of what is, what is said. But the Enneagram is really cool in that it's a journey. So once you learn your type, You then begin to understand kind of your areas that you tend to just be impulsive just naturally because it's a way that you had to learn really from childhood. So going back to childhood, we all had to learn basic coping and— what's the word— just when you are— survival.

Okay.

Survival skills, right?

Mm-hmm.

Because the reality is, it's like we all needed to receive love in certain ways when we were younger and because because nobody is in our own head and heart except for us, our parents couldn't perfectly give that love to us, so we had to learn ways to survive and cope. And so that's kind of how these personalities form within us as we're growing up. And so we learn these survival skills, which is technically the 9 different types, and you hang on to those your whole life. But the reason that the Enneagram is so cool is because once you learn your type, you can begin this journey of like recognizing these like tendencies and these triggers. And this way you're about to do the same thing that you always do, and it's just not good for your people in your world. The way you close down, or the way you are abrasive, or the way that you're easily offended, or why you cry so easily, or how come you feel like the outsider. Or, I mean, there's just so many different things that we're all gonna find ourselves in one of the 9 types, and then with a wing. One way or the other just a little bit.

Okay, so how does that correlate with like love languages or StrengthsFinder or 16 Personalities? Like, how is it different?

How is it different? Yeah, so because the Enneagram is this really complex tool, um, once you get your results through whether you take an online test or read one of the many really, really good Enneagram books, um, those are kind of the two ways. Really, honestly, the Enneagram— reading the Enneagram books is like the most recommended way rather than taking a test because then you read through all the types and you identify yourself like really strongly in one of them and you're like, ah, because the reality is too we are all like a little bit of every type. So it's totally normal to like find yourself in every type, but one of them is gonna feel really true for you and you're gonna be in it. Sometimes it doesn't feel good. The one that feels the most true is kind of like, ooh, okay, but then you need to realize like there's millions of people in the world that are that same type too, you know what I mean? You're not alone in it. So, um, but to answer your question how it's different, once you find your type, now you've got this plethora of information thanks to the interwebs and all these books. Mm-hmm. There's just tons of information where you can start to read about your type. So you've got your unhealthy level, your average, and your healthy level within every type. And you can go, oh yeah, I see that I tend to be a little bit on the average, I'd like to strive for and work on being more healthy in my type. And you're gonna notice these like specific things about them that you're gonna just immediately know, yeah, I do that or I don't do that. So it's really helpful. And then that's why it's called a journey really, is because you can't just read through this stuff in a night and identify and go, alright, I'm just gonna change now. You know, tomorrow morning when I wake up, I just read how to be healthy, a healthy 9, so I'm gonna just be a healthy 9 now.

Yeah.

It's not like that. I mean, we're like humans, you know. You're gonna wake up tomorrow and your kids are gonna torque you off and you're gonna like wanna either retreat or lash out or be snarky or, you know, there's just different things that are gonna trigger us. It gives you ways that you can grow specifically. So if you look up the Enneagram on Google Images, you're gonna see a circle and it's gonna look like this kind of crazy symbol that has like a triangle with another triangle and lines going everywhere and it's gonna be a little intimidating and kind kind of, some people see it as a little mystical, but it's truly not. It's not like foo-foo fairy dust stuff. It's not, right? But those lines have a purpose because now from, like, let's say you type as a 7. I'm an 8 with a 7 wing, and so an 8 is called the Challenger and a 7 is called the Enthusiast. And so I'll just be honest, I really didn't like my number at first because it really exposed. I'm like, I don't want anyone to know my number because if you go and read now about an average or let's say unhealthy 8, you're going to know what to look for in me. Yeah. And that exposes me and makes me feel vulnerable and uncomfortable, but at the same time I'm like, I'm committed to my work in this life, like to do my work to grow as a person, and if this is like a specific like bullet point way to do it, then we're good, you know?

Yeah, so is there like a how-to steps of like what you can do to become better?

These books that we can, you can refer to like in the show notes or whatever, I can give you all those resources and then these books will be really helpful. But the arrows, so the point of that symbol is like if I'm an 8, you're gonna see an arrow shooting to a 2 and an arrow shooting to a 5. So from the number 8, you're gonna see 2 arrows coming out of the 8. One's going to 2, one's going to 5, and those arrows represent my tendency when I'm stressed, what I'm gonna act like. I'm gonna act like an unhealthy 5, which this is when it starts to get complicated and you start to realize like, whoa, this is way more than a StrengthsFinder 4.0, you know, right? Whatever. Those aren't like— they're great, but you know, they kind of have an end. Mm-hmm.

Oh, absolutely they do.

Where— and so then the other, the other arrow from an 8 goes to a 2, which is means I can act, I can mimic and model and be more conscious and aware of being like a healthy 2, which in my great moments when I feel no stress, when I'm happy, when I'm fed, when I'm stimulated, all the things that make me, my personality, like feel alive, unique to me, I really do have 2 tendencies, which is called the helper, and that's when I can like come alongside somebody and be super like cheerleader, love you really well, be really giving, be kind and thinking of you first instead of me first. So those are ways for my type to specifically be conscious and mindful of and to grow in. So yeah, every number has those options specific to your number. And once you start to kind of familiarize yourself with the 9 types, it starts to get easier. At first it seems overwhelming, but it's really pretty fascinating.

Okay, yeah, as I'm thinking, because I took that, I took an online test, just like a quick one.

Yeah.

And I just remember they gave like 6, or maybe it was 4, I don't know, there was several numbers.

Sure.

And it had like my top number, and then it had different numbers underneath, and then it was like telling me, but I didn't understand the references, so I was just like, okay, it's overwhelming. Right.

And so this is why a lot of people are like, oh yeah, I'm a 6 4. I'm like, no, no, no, no, because see, there's a 5 in between a 6 and a 4, and you can't be a 4 wing if you're a 6. But that's understandable, because if a person gets on and takes the test like you did, it's gonna give you your top numbers that you scored as, and they want you to read through those numbers, those top numbers, and decide for yourself, do some deep self-reflecting, which one feels the most true to you. Find that number, then after you familiarize yourself with that, then start thinking about your wing one way or the other later whenever you want. But like, that number you find yourself in is really the most important number.

Okay, yeah, that makes more sense because I was just a little— yeah, I think I was just expecting like the 16 personalities or whatever. Yeah, but I also, I've just been feeling resistant towards like labels. And so I was worried a little bit by taking another quiz. Yeah. Because I feel like I've had to take a quiz for school or a quiz for a job, and they're like, give us your top 5 strengths. And I'm like, really though? Like, on my best day, yep, I could have these strengths. And then on my really shitty days, like, I have 2, you know? And so I totally— I just wonder about that. And as far as evolution goes, Thinking about like me back when I was 21 compared to almost 30, I feel like those years, like I've, I've just changed so much that if I would have taken the quiz then, would I have gotten the same results?

That's really actually interesting you say that because some of the most renowned Enneagram teachers now in today that are alive now They say to take those quizzes or assess yourself if you're using the book as if you were 20.

Interesting. So like think back to when I was 20.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because they say you're like, you really are predisposed to this type from early, early on. Maybe not necessarily out of the womb. I don't believe that only because, you know, from 0 to what, I don't know, 4 months old, 5 months old, like I don't know that there's a lot that happens in your life if you're being just— if your basic needs are being cared for and you're bonded with a caretaker, like, you're not being like tainted, right? Like, your person, your heart, your mind isn't being tainted yet, you know? And it might even be older than that. It might even be up to like a year old or something. But at that point, all of the experiences and things that happen in your life are shaping you. And so they say like your, your type started when you were very young, and it will stick. It is the same. It's just going to express itself differently depending on how mindful and how healthy you are.

Oh, okay.

So it's, it's so cool. And what's really interesting is I have a friend who's a 7, and she was really resistant to taking this too. Uh-huh. I'm just gonna throw that out there to you, okay? And she said the exact thing that you did. I don't want to be labeled. Yeah, and I'm like, I get it, you know, kind of similar to what I was expressing. Like, I don't want— I'll label myself in private, but I don't want to tell anybody, right? Yeah, you're gonna know what to look for. You're gonna know when I'm like being a bully or being way too direct or being like my way or the highway.

Like, I'll reference back to things like, oh, I'm a Taurus, if it's like a good quality. Like, oh, that's because I'm a I'm a Taurus, or like stupid stuff like that. Not stupid, but just like I pick and choose when I label myself. Yeah, but then when it comes to anything else, then I'm like, oh no, I don't want to say that, right? But I also do believe that, I mean, our minds are just so powerful. So if you're constantly telling yourself, just like that podcast I sent you, like, I'm always late, I'm always late, you're, you're basically like setting yourself up to always be late because you're consistently telling yourself that. And so I'm just wondering, like, as my, my personality, I'm like, this is all is just so much. I know, like, I think it's great and I'm excited to dive in and just learn more, but as I just think of about it on like a surface level, I'm like, oh my gosh, am I going to read it and then like overanalyze, you know, and be like, oh my gosh, like, I'm like this all the time. I really, I don't know.

I think there's this, there's like a time for the Enneagram. And if you are not in a season where you feel like it's going to be beneficial for you, then don't do it. You know what I mean? It's not like a must-have. It's not like a you can't live without. Right. It's not your coffee. Yeah. If you hit a wall within yourself and you are kind of like sick and tired of being sick and tired about yourself, like you're just like, why am I internally, you know, overanalyzing? Or why am I struggling in my relationships? Or why am I struggling in parenting? Or just, I just feel down, or I'm just kind of confused, or I don't feel understood, or, you know, you're just kind of— you just, you're trying to numb out or constantly stay busy or have fun or whatever because you just can't stand your own self, really, when you really think about it, like your day-to-day. Then I think the Enneagram is a good tool.

This would be a good time for an advertisement. But I also feel like this episode just— like, what would we advertise in it? Maybe like an Enneagram book? Or, I mean, like a self-help how-to? But I just, I don't have anything for you guys. So how about this time, right now, you just refill your coffee, or go pee or whatever you need to do. Take a quick little break, refresher, and then we'll get right back to the episode.

I think we all hit those points at certain points in our life multiple times. Oh yeah. But if you're in a season where things are just gliding along and you're just like smooth sailing, then yeah, this isn't the time probably. I mean, if it's not super intriguing to someone for sure. But I do have a little testimony to that podcast you sent me.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you sent it and I listened and I realized like there was something that I say about myself all the time that I needed to stop saying, and it was, I don't have a good memory. I tell people that all the time. I'm like, yeah, I just, I just repeat that about myself a lot. And I even share like how I have good friends from my childhood who have learned that Amanda doesn't have a good memory. So when, when we're gonna tell her a memory about us from when I was young, we don't say, hey Amanda, do you remember when, you know, they just say, hey Amanda, so when you were 10 and you were with me, we did this. And then I'm like, Really? That's awesome! That's so funny. Yeah, I don't remember that, you know. And so I just, I don't know, and I decided, you know, it just came to me, I'm gonna stop saying that or thinking that of myself first of all. Mm-hmm. It started with that. It was just like a quick little conscious like thing in my head, and then I haven't said it about myself since. And then the other day I was riding my bike with Tanner and I was trying to think of somebody's name, I think. And usually when I can't think of something, I get anxiety right away and I just quit. I like do not continue to think about what the thing is.

Uh-huh.

And I decided to continue to think about it. I was like, no, I have a good— it's okay. I don't have a bad memory. I can do this. You know that self-talk? Yeah. Just like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding going on in your mind. And then like 8 seconds later, I was like, I got it! I said the name, like it came to me. And I go, Tanner! 'Can you believe that I just remembered that?' He was like, 'That is pretty impressive.' And so to me, I was like, that was a testimony to that mind shift of, you know, taking out the negative talk about yourself or even thoughts, and then it changed like how my brain worked.

Yeah, even before that episode, um, I— a friend had given me The Power of the Subconscious Mind, which like I knew our minds are powerful, but I just never like read about it. I never really thought too deeply about it.

Right.

But just reading that book, it talks about how your brain is like a crew on a ship that work at the bottom of the ship and they just keep the boat moving. Like they have one job and it's just to keep going, keep going, and that's how your brain is. So whatever you tell it, that's what it does over and over and over again. And I had never thought about it that way. And he had said like, don't ever tell yourself like, I can't afford that, or I'm poor, or just anything that's negative. Don't say that because you are teaching your brain crew basically to just that you're poor, you're poor, you're poor. And it just keeps like life, the universe, it just keeps giving you like all the negative, right? Because that's what you are believing, and like subconsciously. So consciously you could be like, I have all this money coming in, but subconsciously you're like, but I can't afford it, I can't afford that. And so then that's just like the life you live. It was just so interesting to think about it that way. And so ever since I read that book, I've just been a little bit more conscious about what I tell myself, right? Because I really feel like I mean, we start so young, little tiny things like, "I'm not important," "I'm not loved," "I'm this," "I'm that," and then you just grow up thinking that.

It's so true. I can trail back to when I was a kid, and I always kind of felt left out. Like, I was friends with a lot of people, but I was never— I never felt like I was in with any clique. I was kind of like hovering on the outside of everybody. And I still feel like that and believe that today about myself. But this year actually has been a pretty big growing season, really, for changing that mindset and seeing things differently. But, but you're exactly right. I mean, that stuff does— it sticks with you. It starts from when you're a kid. Yeah, and just kind of identifying it and realizing like just because you think it's true doesn't mean it's true.

True, right?

And you can reframe the way you see things, and you can realize that underneath the "I'm feeling left out" or "I am left out" is there's something else. It's, it's actually like more of a self-acceptance issue. Like, you're not going to insert yourselves into things or feel like you're welcome places because you don't really believe you are. And that's like—

makes sense—

a deeper thing than I feel left out, right? You know?

Yeah. Or way more— yeah, intricate or whatever. Yeah, I can't think of the word.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I just— I mean, even just the other day, I feel like that's kind of a, um, a message that I've been needing to hear lately. I just all of a sudden the other night like broke down to Kurt and I was like, I don't fit in anywhere. And he was like, "What are you talking about? Like, you have this and you have this and like you do this." And I'm like, "It's just a feeling I have. Like, it's just a feeling inside that I, like, I'm there and I'm doing it, but I just, like, I'm different than everybody else." And I just, I mean, I couldn't like express how I felt. And then a couple days later, I saw like this this coach, or I can't remember exactly what she did, but she was talking about how if you ever feel like you don't fit in or if you don't, you know, belong, it's because you're not meant to, and you're meant to like start your own path. And so then I was thinking about like my purpose or my passion and what that is, and I'm like, what is a constant in my life? Like, what do I— how have I always felt? And trying to kind of tap back into being a little girl and the feelings that have like always remained. And I was like, it's my love for people. Like, I just love connecting and love talking to people and like giving people my time because I really can't like promise anything else. Like, I can't deliver anything else perfectly other than— I'm like getting emotional. I can't deliver anything, um, as perfect as I can deliver love and, um, quality time. And so I was just like, oh my gosh, like, I don't really need to necessarily, like, always try and just blend in and be a part of the group. I just need to do it always with love and always with my time. And so anyway, it was just That's so— it was so nice to like just realize and be like, stop being like anxious about it. Like everything's okay. Like everything is just how it should be. And just like let go of that. But it's crazy to think, oh my gosh, like I've been feeling that for a long time and just not being able to express it. And so when you finally are able to and just kind of like talk yourself through it, it's Like a nice breath of fresh air.

Yeah. So I'm gonna ask you a question that would be like an Enneagram question.

Okay.

Okay, and answer it honestly because I feel like I might be on to something, but I could be wrong.

Okay.

Okay. Do you feel like you want to fit in? Let me think about this. In order to Um, make sure that people notice your uniqueness.

Probably, yeah, that sounds about— that sounds right.

Okay, so would it be true that it's more important for people— for you— for people to see you as unique than it would be to see you as happy and enthusiastic?

Yeah.

Unique?

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. So would, um, would a fear of yours be a fear of people seeing you as usual or common or normal or—

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, so I want you to look at a Type 4.

Okay.

I'm just gonna inch you towards that direction.

Well, and I— that was on my list. It might have even been a top number of mine.

Yeah.

But I felt the same way. Like, as I was looking through, I was like, no, no. And probably because I was resisting, like I didn't want to be those things.

I'm like, there's no way. The more you resist, the more you're— that's pretty right on.

I'm like, there's no way, there's no way.

Yeah, and it's vulnerable. You might feel vulnerable answering those. I don't see it as weakness at all. I'm like, cool, like you want to be unique. That's— there's not no shame in that game, you know what I mean?

Mhm.

So But when it's your own type and, you know, when you're answering for yourself, it feels so— it almost can borderline like a— like you feel kind of ashamed. Yeah, totally. That's where we have to be like, heck no, like there's no, there's no room here for that, right?

Well, and I think just in society in general, we're kind of just shown and talked to about what we should be and what we should look like and what we should say and do. And so I think just as a human trying to like find who you are, it's hard to kind of push past those stigmas with— it's kind of like that little voice in your head being like, it's not okay to be like this, like you need to, right?

For sure.

Like, come over here. So like, yeah, I want to be unique, but like not too unique, you know? Like maybe I— because then I'm attention attention-seeking, you know, because then people are like, oh, Kris, like, you're too much, this is too much, you know what I mean? So it's like this little talk in your head that's where you know kind of like what you want to do, but also what should you do.

And that, I will plug the Enneagram again, seriously, because it's given me permit— it's given me language around me describing me, my deepest me, and, and freed me to be that in a healthy way. And in a healthy way doesn't mean, like, for a 4, to put you in a box a little bit. It doesn't mean that, you know what I mean? It just, it's gonna feel right. Like, when you start that journey of, like, a healthy 4, you're gonna notice, like, oh yeah, I'm that way. A lot. Yeah, the healthy Four way, you know. And then you're gonna see those pitfalls, those kind of innate struggles within that type, and you're gonna be like, yep, okay, yep, I totally see when I do that. And so now that I know, I'm just gonna like catch myself right when I start it, and then I'm gonna realign, you know, with my truth. I don't have to— I can't speak for a Four, but you know, I've got my own truths that I have to realign. So, Amanda, you don't have to be on guard constantly. You don't have to be looking for how you need to protect yourself or others all the time. Maybe I can just rest and trust God in my day and in my relationships. It's not up to me to control or to make things happen. Like, there's just these different self-talk kind of things that are specific for my type that are like super helpful.

Yeah, I love that.

And they just start quick in my mind at this point, you know? Yeah. And I've grown so much just having that.

Yeah, you use the word free, which I love that. I feel like free is just such a great word.

Yeah.

Um, do you ever listen to Alan Watts?

No.

Or have you heard of him?

No.

So he just does these like philosophical talks, and his voice is just very like soothing and calming. And he has this one talk where he talks about being little and growing up and how people, again, like label you and tell you what you are and who you are, and how as an adult you can like self-reflect and be like, am I, um, dependable? Like, am I loyal? Because you've just been being told that your whole life. And so I just remember, um, when I first heard it, I was like, that's interesting because I've been telling myself, you know, you are clean, like you are very cleanly, but I'm really not. Like I'm like, I'm surface area clean, but like, I mean, I'll deep clean rarely, and when I do deep clean, it's like deep clean, like baseboards, like scrubbing. But on like a regular basis, like I wouldn't say that I'm like an anal cleanly person. So it was just so funny to be like, oh my gosh, I have been telling myself like I'm clean this whole time and I'm really not. And so it was just kind of like realigning with like what I am and also saying like it's okay that I'm not. Like I don't care that I'm not, and like it's fine. So that just kind of reminded me of that a little bit. Totally.

But then should we, because of the brain guy, should we actually be doing We're clean even though we're not. I mean, some of this seems a little like, okay, can we just get down to the truth here?

Like, what's the—

okay, what's my most inner circle people say about me? Because I can trust those voices sometimes more than my own, you know? Like, right, hey, am I, am I a clean person? Can I get some feedback here, anybody?

You know, I'll ask Kurt too. I'm like, do I take criticism well? And he's like, Ahh! And I'm like, how dare you! Yes, I do! And then I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, I know.

So I call that pride. It's like we have so much— people have so much pride. It's like, it's kind of sad, like how much pride we have. Like we cannot even like begin to talk to someone about something like even small without us like— or that person, or it could be me, you know, without just immediately feeling defensive. Like we have to like protect ourselves, you know, as if the standard is perfection and now you're telling me I'm less than perfect. I'm like, what the fuck is that? Like, we should all just be at baseline understanding we're all like pretty messed up in our own ways and like we're never gonna hit perfection. It's not a thing. Like, why can't we all just like stay in this mentality of like, if someone needs to come at me with something that I've done, like Why can't I just receive it as if I was just this like super teachable, super like humble?

Like, great, love that feedback.

Love that. Oh my gosh, thanks for telling me I'm a big dickhead today. Like, I really needed that.

I was wondering that too. I was talking to my mother-in-law last weekend, and as we were talking about that, I wondered that same thing. I'm like, why can't I just be like upfront? Cuz I like to I like to think that I'm like a blunt, honest person, and— but I'm like, am I really? I don't know, because I would never just be like, you're acting like a bitch, because in my head I'm now saying something mean. Yeah, and then it's gonna hurt that person's feelings, you know?

And that probably would hurt my feelings. Yeah, totally. But it's just that if you like reached across me and grabbed my hand and looked me in the eyes as if we were lovers, and you're like, "I just want to tell you, you're really kind of acting like a P with an H." You know, like just super tender. I'd be like, "Really? Am I?" So some of it is delivery, not that it needs to be.

It totally is though.

But it's delivery.

Uh-huh. You can say the same thing but in a different tone.

Totally.

In a different way.

And I'm usually not too toned down with when I'm blunt, especially with my husband. I'm just kind of like, that's why I need to tone it down.

That's why I need to choose a different tone. Oh, because I'm like, he's my partner, this person that I like love more than anyone that I'm choosing to spend my life with, and then I'm just—

I know, we're the worst to the people closest to us. It's so true, we are. It's sad.

I know. I wonder why that is. It's like a comfort.

It's a comfort. They've seen all the worst of us, and I feel like we've, we let our, our, I don't know, let our guard down and we lower our bar. Everything about us just kind of comes down, and they just get the like rawest, worst of us at times, which I feel like also comes with like a trade-off though. Like they're also our safest place to be because they've seen the worst of us and the lowest of us, you know?

Right.

Where like our friends— friendships tend to never see that. So I don't know, it's kind of a— it's hard. Not that that's an excuse by any means. I feel like, yeah, we definitely need to like check ourselves before we wreck ourselves.

I know, for the 100th time. Okay, so the podcast I've talked about, or on the podcast I've talked about me personally, I feel like I've almost like rebirthed myself like 6 times. Like I've started a new life and like started over. Do you feel that way, or how would you describe your life up till now? Like would you describe it as like picking up and starting over, or would you describe it a different way?

Yeah, I don't know that I would use that exact language, but I mean, I think for me I see that everything is kind of connected, you know, and so you used the word evolved earlier. It does feel like an evolution, just kind of like a forward-moving thing that has life, that keeps kind of like dropping things and picking more things and grabbing onto the wrong thing and letting it go, and it's just this constant for me, you know?

Yeah, I love that analogy.

I, uh, yeah, I've, I've grown a lot, as people do, especially from, I'd say, the age 24, you know, to up. Basically everything after 24 feels like constant growth. I'm like pushing 36 now, and it's still just the same as it was 4 years ago, or 6 years ago, we're still growing here, but I do love the journey of that and, and just really like the self-awareness that has come in my, in my age, you know, it's just, it's good. Sometimes self-awareness can be also, feels like a little bit of a hindrance. I've gone through season where I've just been like almost overly self-aware, it became hypercritical. Where I started to almost berate myself, like, oh, I shouldn't have said that at that party, or that to that person when I was at that party, or I should have said it differently. Or, you know, you replay crap in your head, like, when you're going to bed, and it's just like that berating is just like so such a waste of time, but so real. I've just— I've been through seasons where I've been, been that, you know? Yeah. And that's where, like, prior to being self-aware, I never did that crap. Never. Went to bed every night thinking about myself, just like, "Oh, life is good. I'm in my cozy bed. What'd I do today? Who cares?" You know? Yeah, what am I doing tomorrow?

Like, well, I told you that in the book Untethered Soul that he talks about, like, give that voice a body and they would be like the worst friend ever. And I'm like, that is so true. Like, that friend is the worst.

Worse.

I would ditch them in a second.

Heck yeah.

Yeah, so I like that monkey chatter, get out of here.

Yeah, you know, so I've had to learn tools, you know, to kind of overcome that, just like self-acceptance stuff and kind of just trusting, um, just the spirit in me as a guide to just know like if there's something that needs to be addressed to somebody or to revisit somebody from a conversation or whatever, that like it will come to me. I will know I need to to do it, but I don't have to like overthink every conversation and every word and da da da da and try to analyze it myself. Like, I just kind of let it go and move forward. But yeah, so to answer your question, I guess I would just say I've just— I see my life more of kind of just constantly evolving, I would say. Yeah, where every part of my whole life is still with me, um, in some way. I just have had to work through it and put it— put everything, every memory, every hardship, every, you know, time I cried over something really big that still sticks with me, or heartbreak of some kind. I just have had to revisit it and try to find some healing from it and put it in like a proper place, I guess, in myself, like in my being, you know. It doesn't get front seat, it doesn't It just kind of gets to be, I guess, like a department that would be considered like, um, this happened but it doesn't define me. It helped to shape me, but the wounds don't, you know, they don't, um, the wounds don't get to hinder me. That's probably the best way to put it.

Yeah, I love that. I feel like mine's more morbid. I feel like in my head I like see, like, you died. Yeah, like, kill that girl. Yeah, yeah, like, seriously. And then I'm like, whoa, and then rebirth. Yeah, but I mean, I like that a lot your way, a lot better. I'm gonna have to go back, resurrect her, deal with it. I'm sure she wasn't that bad. I love asking people that question and hearing all of the different responses because we all view our lives so differently and our way of moving through things. And I just loved the way that Amanda talked about picking things up and then dropping them back up and then picking some more things up and then leaving them later on. Like, it's just, you're still who you are. Just changing and deciding what's best for you at that moment, which I'm all about. I think that it's absolutely fabulous.