What's your cross to bare? 👬

Hello.

Hi.

Good morning.

Good morning.

How are you?

I'm so good. Good.

It's been so long since we've talked.

I know. Like, I'm trying to think of when it was, and I, I don't know.

Welcome to my podcast, The Girl with the Red Door. I'm Kristjana Hillberg, your main host. You'll get to hear from people who divulge real and raw experiences on all different topics. I don't like to bullshit, so here we go. So much has happened, so I'm so excited for you to just like fill me in on everything.

Yeah, absolutely.

Oh my goodness, it has been one of those weeks, and not because It's been one of those weeks, as in like crazy and crappy. It's been one of those weeks because it's literally Sunday night. I'm in bed with my kids, they're laughing and being crazy, and I have to get this recorded. So that's just what's— it's— that's just what's gotta happen. So this week's episode is my amazing cousin who I got to catch up with after, I mean, a decade and a half. It's crazy. So I am just so excited to talk to him about all the changes that have happened in his life and all the amazing things that he is doing. We both grew up LDS, and so we talk a little bit about that, and we also talk about his experience coming out. So I hope you enjoy. Grab yourself your favorite coffee or tea or while you're working, whatever you're doing, just tune in and here is our convo. I've heard that BYU can be I mean, I've never attended, but I heard that there's— it's basically like church rules that you have to abide by.

Yeah.

Was that the hard part or was it more so just like the whole culture? Like what was— what did you not like about it?

Well, yeah, I mean, a lot of the rules and I think that's why the culture is the way that it is there. Is because of the standards that are set, you know, the honor code that they set. Yeah. It's basically, yeah, just like a, you know, just like the Mormon culture, but in a university setting. And for someone like me who was just trying to figure myself out and figure out who I was, coming to terms with who I am, 'Cause at the time I was still trying to, I hadn't like fully come out, but I like, I mean, some people knew, some people didn't. So it wasn't like a huge secret, but at the same time it wasn't something that I had like fully accepted myself.

Yeah.

And so that was really hard because I knew that I just knew that it wouldn't last. Like, I knew that it, like, for me to continue going to school there, I would eventually just be breaking all their rules. And I know people that go to BYU that do that. They break the honor code and they know that they are, but they just lie through their interviews because they just want to get through school. And to me, that's not right. Like, I would much rather, you know, if I'm not going to break, if I'm not going to follow the rules, I'd just much rather not be there.

Exactly. Yeah. Like, morally, I think, or your, like, your conscience would just be like, this isn't, this isn't right for me. Like, I just need to be who I am.

Exactly.

And out of here instead of pretending to be something that I'm not. And I can only imagine that it would just be like kind of like a weight. It would feel like you were just being weighed down.

Absolutely. One of my really good friends, um, is— he's gay, and he, um, and yeah, he was just like, you know, like, I do want to date around. Like, I don't, I don't fully believe in the church, but I do want to finish my education here. And but for him, it worked because he didn't feel You know, because the standard at BYU obviously was what the church says, which is, you know, just keeping the law of chastity, meaning, you know, not having sex.

Just no engaging. Okay.

No sex.

So whether you're gay or not, they just don't want you to engage in any type of sexual activity.

Right. No sexual activity outside of marriage.

Do they talk about that? Like in your interview, do they ask? Like, do you— are you gay? Like, I mean, is that even like a thing or has that? Because I feel like just in the recent years it's become way more like talked about and addressed.

They don't flat out ask, are you gay? Well, yeah, they do. That's right. To be honest, I don't even know how that ever does come up. I think Well, actually, I'll just say this. What they do ask is they ask, are you keeping the law of chastity? And that, you know, for somebody to be keeping the law of chastity means that they are refraining from sexual activity outside of marriage. And if they're in marriage or like if they are married, then they, you know, they're faithful to their spouse and But that also, the whole law of chastity encompasses homosexuality. And so if a bishop or a leader is asking you if you're keeping the law of chastity, then the gay part of it is kind of like, it's, they're basically asking you indirectly because they're saying, are you keeping this law, which includes refraining from homosexual activity? So it's like, it's not that they're saying, are you gay? Right. But they're still asking, are you keeping this, this standard? Are you living this standard? And then if you answer no, well, then they're going to say, well, you know, can you explain what's going on? Oh, well, you know, I'm actually dating this guy or, you know, and then the cat's out of the bag at that point.

Right. So I remember watching this documentary and I I don't recall where it was, but it was an LDS couple who were married, and he was speaking about being gay and that he was gay, but he believed that it was his cross to bear in this life. And like, his wife knew that he was gay, and she was just like, yep, I just like look at it like, it's any other, you know, like alcoholism. And I was just blown away. I was just in complete shock watching the documentary because, I mean, even church leaders, I think they had interviewed either like the bishop or the stake president, but they were like, yeah, as long as he is following the law of chastity and they're married and like, then it's fine and everything's fine. And I'm just thinking, well, what about his heart? Like, what about, what about what's true in his inside, you know, like, yeah, maybe on the outside, it's quote unquote fine. But even in the church, wouldn't you want that person to be truly who they were than to live a lie forever? You know, I don't— it was really hard for me to accept. It was a really interesting documentary.

Yeah, I don't know if it's the same documentary. It could be because I read an article that was the exact same situation. It's probably a different couple, to be honest. But, but yeah, this couple I read, the, this article I read about this couple was the same situation. He was married. He was out gay. His wife knew, but they were living in the church, you know, as church members. And they were worthy church members. But the article that I read was, sorry, let me back up a little bit more. When he came out, they were already married. Well, I mean, she already knew, but they came out, I guess, as a couple to the church to say, I'm gay, but I'm still married to my wife and I love her and we wanna continue this marriage. Anyway, it was really like, I'm pretty sure it went viral at the time that it came out in the church because it was so like, wow, you know, he's so strong for, you know, doing what God wants and doing what the Lord wants rather than succumbing to his own desires, you know, his own homosexual desires. You know, everyone was just so impressed with them. And so they would do talks and they would do, like they'd go around and they would talk about it and they were inspiring. But then this article that I read, it was probably 5 years later, they were announcing their divorce. And that was real shocking for a lot of people because you know, they were this— they were like the poster child of a gay Mormon man living the way that the church says is the correct way to handle homosexuality.

Exactly.

And when they— so they announced that they were getting divorced because it just wasn't working. Like you said, you know, well, what about— what about his heart? You know, what about who he truly is? And you just can't deny that no matter no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise. And in this article, they were explaining, you know, how hard it was for her and for him, you know, and it had nothing to do even with sex, you know, it was all very emotional. You know, she, even though he was gay, like it doesn't, you know, sex aside, like, they just, you know, he saw her as more of this best friend, you know, as opposed to, you know, like a lover and a partner. And exactly. And to her, that's great, and she loves him too, but she needs to be loved in that kind of romantic way, and she wasn't feeling that. And Anyway, long story short, yeah, they ended up explaining their divorce and how, you know, it's not going to be anything messy. It's not going to be any, you know, there's no hard feelings here. It's not, it's not anything like that. It's just that they deserve, they both deserve true happiness is what it comes down to. And, and I think that that is just such a good example of, um, I mean, not to say told you so to the church, but in a way, kind of, but kind of, because it's just, they tell you that, you know, that, yeah, this is your cross to bear. It's just a trial, like alcoholism, like anything else, you know, you just need to be strong. You just need to have faith. You just need to rely on you're leaders and you need to, you know, they give you all of these different tools that are supposedly gonna help you through this quote trial. And, but it never works. It never works.

Was it confusing to be being told that by, I mean, family and leaders and being like, this is not really how I feel. Like how, what were the thoughts and emotions that you were experiencing?

I knew what the church said about it and I knew that I could be— I knew I could be gay as long as I didn't act on it. But I feel like the way that the church, you know, says, you know, it's this trial, it's this, it's that, it's you know, it's your cross. It's all of these different things have this sort of connotation to it that says that you are broken or there's something wrong with you. And it's just very, you know, being told this over and over and over again, it leads you to start you know, being shameful of who you are. And you start feeling just like a broken, you know, like a broken, I don't know, you just don't feel like you work, you know, like you're not functional because there's something wrong with you. And then on top of that, the church says, You need to do this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. And it's going to— it's going to— maybe it's not going to fix you, but it'll certainly help you. And for me, and I know for a lot of other people, it almost just makes it worse because no matter how hard you try to deal with it and maybe even like not even change yourself, but like no matter how hard you just try to suppress that, I guess, and to ignore it, it just makes it, it makes it worse.

Yeah. And I can only imagine it's almost like swimming into the current where you're like fighting for reasons that aren't even like for reasons outside of yourself. And that never works for anyone.

Right.

And yeah, and that suppression, that is, that's like a perfect word for it. It's like just suppress these push it down, push it down, and it'll go away, or at least be quote unquote better. Right.

And if it doesn't go away, we've got these leaders, you can pray. Supposedly they're giving you all of these tools to help, but that's not the problem. The issue is deeper than that. And I think that does stem down to the fact that we as human beings just need— we need to be loved. We need to love and we need to be loved. You know, it's not— you know, that idea of like a romantic love is not something that you can just take away from people. You know, I mean, Exactly. It's just such a fundamental part of humanity.

Yeah, no.

And for anyone to just sit, for anyone to say, you know, you need to, you know, kind of put that away and you need to not act on that part of you and just treat it as if it were, you know, just alcoholism. No, like that's not, it doesn't, you can't compare the two. In fact, it frustrates me when they use alcoholism as a comparison because it's not.

Right.

You know, it's not the same thing at all.

No, no. And yeah, I think, or I've heard people talk about it just very naively and almost just coldly, almost just referring, yeah, as like an equal to alcoholism or just like, well, it's just a mental disease. And it literally, it just like, it shocks me that people still believe that or think that. And just being a human yourself, gay or not, like you should look inwards and think, what are my, what are my needs? What are my, what does my heart say? You know, instead of I don't know. It's a very controversial thing, I think, to talk about, especially when you're a part of the church. And I even just still see now, even in 2019, that it's still like an issue and always going to be an issue with leaders accepting it and being like open to allowing allowing— when I think about the God that I believe in, I think that he has always been an all-knowing, all-loving God from the beginning to the end. And I don't think that there's specific rules. And I think that that was one of the hardest things for me to accept is that we are taught that God loves you no matter who you are, what you do, where you come from, but yet this, this, this, and this though, if you, you know, participate in this, if you're a part of this, then sorry, but you're not gonna like make it to the highest kingdom. And so it's just, that was extremely difficult for me to accept because I just think it's all bullshit.

Absolutely. And it's, and you can probably say the same, you know, because you grew up learning the same things that I did. And I think when you finally realize all the bullshit, it's so incredibly difficult to think otherwise. Like even now, like I haven't gone to church or I've left the church, I guess you could say, since 2014. So it's been 5 years.

Yeah.

And even 5 years of, of, you know, having come to terms with who I am and with what I believe. And even in 5 years, it's still so hard because, because these ideas and teachings have been ingrained in our heads.

Yes, they're like living in your subconscious that it's been ruling your behavior and your thought patterns for basically your entire life. I mean, so it's hard to just all of a sudden, even though your heart and your mind feel otherwise, it's hard to get those thoughts, the other thoughts out of there. Like, oh, am I being punished? Is this really my cross to bear? Is God really withholding blessings from me? Like just little things like that. I all even still, and I'm gonna be 29, and I'm, you know, I feel like I've, when I was 18, kind of started my journey. I was away and then back and then away, and I feel like I've been fully immersed in both worlds. And I still, you know, those thoughts of what you're taught your whole life will still creep in. And I'm like, nope, that's not what I believe. That is not how I feel. That's just what was told to me for 18 years.

Right.

So yeah, I, I feel it and I feel like it's even, it's hard, uh, family-wise. It's fine, like friend-wise. I feel like you all can just come to terms with, like, I still have friends who are very devout and it's like, it's not an issue at all and we can talk about anything and that's that. But when it comes to family, I feel like that's a little bit different and Yeah, I've had, I've had family members have more of an issue and struggle with it than friends.

Yep, my family as well. And what's so interesting too, to me, is when I initially decided that the church wasn't for me, it was based on the whole homosexuality and how I felt like I couldn't progress as the church would have me progress spiritually. Like I had gotten as far as I could. And so that was like the main reason for why I left. But since then, it's just interesting that, that so many other parts that have nothing to do with homosexuality in the church are, I would say now, like bigger reasons as to why I don't believe in it anymore. And I think for me that is just what's so mind-blowing is because there's so many things like I look at a lot of the things that the church says now and it's just so like it's like how did I ever even how did I ever believe that and how did I ever let someone tell me that that is that that's the truth and that's okay.

And well, I think it's very, I wouldn't say well hidden because I don't think that they keep the history necessarily a secret, but it's not really talked about. There's just so many contradictions that when I was reading and as I read more and study more, it really is just, it's really eye-opening to me that thing to think that I grew up going to church every week, going to Mutual, attending EFY, attending girls camp. And this information is all new and shocking. And I, it almost seems, I wouldn't say that my, I love my childhood and every, like, I didn't question, you know, until I was older. And then I was like, whoa, why didn't I question? So it's not that I was like, you know, having this awful childhood or anything like that. It's just, I think once you get older and older and wiser and you just can kind of look back and see, yeah, then it's kind of, you're faced with all of these truths and facts and you kind of look at things a little bit different. Like, hmm, this is really, really interesting that we grew up this way and had no idea.

That's what they do. You know, they, they say, you know, like they always told me, you know, at church and in any sort of, you know, seminary, any sort of class, they were always telling me, you know, don't read these outside sources, you know, read—

Right, it's anti.

Don't. Right, don't read the anti-Mormon stuff because, you know, it's, you know, they always warned you against it.

False doctrine, it'll just put bad thoughts in your head.

Exactly. And to me, it's just like, you know, that's a very good way to, to keep your people with you, you know, is like, I mean, if there was no credit to be given to these anti-Mormon, you know, publishings, if there was no credit to be given, then why would it matter if we read it or not? You know?

Exactly. Exactly.

It's like Yeah, but the fact that they are, that they were always so, don't read this, don't even touch it. It's like, what have you got to hide and why are you being so secretive about it? And if it is not a big deal, then why can't we, why can't, why hide it?

Exactly. Exactly. I was just thinking too, about how we're taught, you know, okay, when you're listening to a talk, or when you're at EFY, and you like feel the Spirit, that's like God letting you know that his church is true. And, you know, at least that's how I took that. Like, if I'm feeling the Spirit, then that's like revelation or confirmation that this is true. But I have had that exact same feeling in so many different aspects of my life where I feel, where I feel really strongly. And I'm like, and yeah, that is spirit, but that can be felt anywhere. It does not have to be felt at church or at just one church. Like I'm touched by so many things when I go to plays, when I listen to music, when I am in nature, when I had my kids, like there's so many different places. When I'm talking to my friends and we're having a really deep emotional conversation, I mean, that's confirmation to me that we're all human and are all connected. And it's beautiful. And I really wish that I would have thought that way, you know, growing up, that like, okay, just because you're feeling emotional or the spirit doesn't necessarily mean it's because it's confirmation that these things are true. It's just because maybe that was just a a nice message, you know, it touched your heart.

Uh-huh. And anything that's put in that kind of spiritual context and nice words and say beautiful things about God, of course they're going to make you feel good. I mean, why wouldn't they, you know?

Right, exactly.

And it was always so— because I saw it on my mission, because I did it, I was the missionary, and I thought it was so crazy to me that, you know, I would teach something to someone and then say, you know, you need to, you know, read this part of the Book of Mormon, pray about it, pray to know that it's true, you know, and like, I know you'll get your answer. And I'd have people that would say, you know, I did everything that you wanted me to do, but I mean, I, I mean, I feel good, but I'm not, I don't think that that necessarily means that it's what I need or that it's true. And as a missionary, we're immediately trained that we have to figure out what they're doing wrong. Okay, well, you know, did you, you know, did you do this? Well, did you, you know, like the fact that they said that they didn't get this answer says, well, you must have done something wrong. And so then we have to try and figure it out because their answer is supposed to be Yes, it's true. But it's just so like, the way I see it now is, no, they didn't do anything wrong. They did everything that we asked them to do. But the fact is, they just didn't, you know, they just, they don't, they're not seeing that as God telling them that this is what they need. To do, and, you know, to live a happy life. You know, they don't need to accept this to be happy, right? And, and the church, you know, that whole idea that it's this way or the highway is just so bonkers to me because, because there is no way that, that God can expect everybody to fit this super, super, super specific mold. You know, everybody is so different. There's just no way that everybody is gonna be able to fit into this cookie-cutter, you know, mold of life and be happy. There's just no way. And so like, it's ironic in a way that it was like on my mission that I knew that I was and that the church wasn't for me, right? Because like I was there teaching it, but I mean, but that's, that's like an example of how of like in my head I was like, well, I don't really know what else to tell this person if they say that they didn't, if their answer is that it's not for them because that's their answer, you know?

Exactly.

Who am I to say that they're doing it wrong?

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. And I also think that you know, teaching Christ's teachings is very narrowed down to being a kind person, loving everyone, service, you know, so like, as long as you're teaching lessons of love and service and kindness, then that's all, you know, that matters. I think that sometimes we get lost and we just need help reminded, like, you're a human, you're an incredible human, and all of the answers are already inside of you. And so I think that it's just like taking it back to those few simple rules to live by as a human being. And that's just loving each other and serving each other and just being nice and being helpful. Yeah, I think that when you add all of the other things, and I've heard leaders multiple times say, well, they're not rules, they're guidelines, and they help you. And I'm like, well, they're not really guidelines because if you don't follow them, then you're unworthy. And to think of that word unworthy, I think it does a lot to your soul. I've been there too. And I remember telling myself like, I am unworthy. No one is going to love me because of this. And I, you know, and I was there for a long time. I mean, several years and it took a long time to get out of it. And I attribute some of it to the church and not bashing the people who still practice, but at least for me, it was not like an all rainbows and unicorns experience.

Absolutely. And I think, and that a lot, part of that for me as well comes from the fact that it's these untrained, very nice, you know, nothing negative, you know, to their, to their person, but these untrained men who are placed in these positions of leadership to then dictate somebody's worthiness, you know, it's like, for example, when I was coming out and trying to figure out, you know, this whole homosexuality thing I had, you know, over the course of going to BYU and then moving to Tucson and then, you know, even back when I was living at home, I had several different bishops over the years. And those bishops all said different things about what I needed to do. There was a bishop that told me, you know, "Yeah, it's, you can date, you know, you just, you just need to keep the law of chastity, which means no sex out of marriage." Meanwhile, another bishop said, you know, even holding hands with another man or like dating another man is completely against, you know, what God wants you to do. And so there's so many conflicting opinions, because that's what they are, opinions by these men.

Right, I mean, they're humans too. Yeah, they all have opinions.

But for someone who is trying to be worthy, as we were talking about, for someone who's trying to be worthy and to know exactly what it is that God God wants from him. And like, and then to be given these conflicting answers, it becomes another Joseph Smith.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, Joseph Smith in the beginning went around to different churches and wanted to know which church to join. And that led him to go and pray. And that's when, you know, we're taught that he had the First Vision and God and Jesus Christ appeared to him and told him to not join any of the churches because they were all wrong. And through him, he— they were going to restore, you know, the Church of Christ back on earth again. And but the whole— but the whole— that whole idea of conflicting doctrines were being thrown at Joseph, and he didn't know what to do. And I see the exact same thing within the church itself. You know, I'm, I'm hearing different stories from different bishops about what I need to do in order to be worthy. And I'm like, shouldn't, you know, there— why, why is your opinion different from this, this opinion? You know, if you were truly receiving revelation from God for me, shouldn't it be the same? Yeah, because God's not gonna reveal different things, you know, to me just because they're different men. You know, if you were truly receiving this revelation from God, it shouldn't be this polar opposite. And so for me, that really shook my belief in that, in the leaders. And I know that is a huge problem in the church because if you even question your leaders, you know, you're, you're on your borderline apostate, if not, right, you know, you've apostatized if you don't, if you don't rely on your leaders. And that is also so crazy to me because, you know, relying so much on another source to me is just so emotionally unhealthy too, because as human beings, I think it's, it's important to our emotional health to be able to be self-reliant and be able to get through things on our own, you know? Yeah. Not to say that counselors and therapists don't have a place, because they do, but I think that But as people, it is important for us to be able to be self, you know, achieve this self-actualization and be, you know, be confident in who you are as a person and, you know, not have to rely on somebody else for, you know, for all of this emotional support. And—

Exactly. No, that was my actual— that was actually my next question to you was like, when did you you finally realize, like, I just need to look inwards at myself and not seek the guidance of others to know what God or the universe or myself— what's best for me? Like, when did that become, like, so true to you that you just focused on yourself?

Um, it, it was— I remember it hit very strong when I was in Tucson, actually, because that was when— that was like my last official ward that I attended, like where I actually had my records. And I did go to church. But I remember in Tucson was when I was hearing— there was a specific lesson from the bishop in that ward that in so many words taught that being gay was like, like that we're all on this line of sexuality and we all start from one point and we progress down this line. And he put— he was basically saying that homosexuality means that you've basically become so sexual that you're resorting to your own gender, meaning like, you know, you've already gone past the point of like kissing and necking and groping and touching and making out and, you know, having sex with a woman. But like you become almost so sexually, you know, charged or so sexually hungry that you are then going to resort to your own gender, to your own family, and to beasts, you know, like bestiality. And he, you know, he put that on the same— he put homosexuality on the same, you know, on this, this crazy idea that there's this line. And when I heard him basically tell me that, you know, that I, that I am such a sexual person that I'm, that I'm resorting to my own gender, meaning like I've become so corrupted sexually, that this is where I'm at, was so wrong. And I was like, you know what? I'm done with these leaders. I'm done with them telling me their opinions because that, I know that that is not from God. That's not opinion.

Yeah, exactly.

So that was when I was like, I, you know, I just gotta figure this out and I'm not gonna deal with them anymore. I'm gonna, you know, I need to do this for myself. And that was when I just was like, you know, well, I don't need the church for this. I need to be, I just need to do this on my own. And moving back from Tucson into Utah, I didn't have my records transferred over. I, you know, I just said, okay, I'm going to take a break from the church thing. And, and I started exploring, you know, my own happiness. And yeah, and so I would say that that was the point when I was like, okay, I'm done. I need to not rely so much because I also remember back in high school and on my mission even, I go back and read through my journals and it is just, it is astounding at how I was, how my personality was. I was so so desperate for emotional strength. Like, I had this, my first friend that I came out to in high school, he was also gay. I was so emotionally dependent on him. I needed everything from him. I needed him to text me like all the time. I needed to talk to him on the phone. I needed I needed constant validation from him. And if I wasn't getting it from him, I needed to talk to my bishop. I need, like, it was just, I read my journals from back then, and I was so emotionally unavailable. It was, it's just so unhealthy. And then the same on my mission. I read through my mission journals, and I was so like, oh my gosh, it was just, it's crazy to me that that's even how I felt because it's so, it's so unhealthy to be so reliant on these outside sources for your happiness and for, you know, for the strength to go through hard things. And now that I've like put all that behind and yeah, explored my own journey, and figured out who I am and, you know, what makes me happy and living true to that, you know, I feel 100%, you know, different from how I was in those journals.

And isn't that weird to look back and just be like, I reference this sometimes. I talk about us kind of being like cats where we can die and just rebuild ourselves. And it, like, we can look back and almost be like, that was a different life. Like, I'm not, I'm still obviously the same person, but that was a completely different life.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It was a different life. And it's, and in my opinion, it's unhealthy. And I don't like that the church put so much focus on that because, you know, Nick, my husband, always talks about how he believes that religion in general is just another way for people to self-medicate, which is true. You know, when people are having a hard, you know, we're living this difficult life and people need to find peace and comfort. They're gonna— they'll find it in religion. They will.

Thanks for putting me back in your ears today. I always love when you tune in and listen. Head on over to iTunes to give the podcast a review or subscribe or whatever. I'm just glad that you put me back in your ears. I love you. I will talk to you next week.