Dating Dangerously: What Draws Women to Rule-Breakers

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All right, welcome, everybody, to this very special podcast where we're going to be discussing why do women seem to find criminals attractive? This is going to be an interesting one. We have a very special guest with us. We have Macy, our client success director, who is in charge of overseeing all of our clients and their success, as well. As Macy, what would you describe yourself as? Kind of the dean of admissions for our VIP group?

I'm the director of admissions for our VIP group.

Yeah.

Special community. I mean, yeah.

So she is kind of the person who is in charge of really ensuring that any of our clients who come in are looking for love. We set them up for success. And most importantly, Macy, you make sure that they don't date criminals. Right.

It's not a policy that should be.

Well, that's really what we're talking about today. So, I mean.

Well, this topic came about as kind of a fun message that I sent Gary about this. I don't even know if this is a recent trend. I think this has been going on for a long time. But there's a recent situation where this guy, Jeremy Meeks, was a former Crip. He was arrested, and then after just every woman on the planet was like, he is the hottest guy in the world. Oh, my God. And then he becomes a fashion model afterwards. He absolutely blows up. And I'm like, why does this happen? Because this doesn't happen the other way. Like, men aren't drawn to female criminals.

So there's.

There's something in. As far as I'm aware, we can discuss that. But I thought we'd just have a really interesting discussion about this one, because it kind of blows my mind.

Yeah. And I think you actually. You sent that message. So the Jeremy Meeks guy, he's like. He's got, like, dreamy blue eyes. Like. Like, undeniably dreamy blue eyes. Like, he's. He's. He turned into a fashion model. He's objectively attractive. I think he might have even sent this back there. So the guy. Luigi, right, Luigi, who we're going to say allegedly shot the CEO of the healthcare company. He. We also know, not allegedly, we do know he's a McDonald's aficionado. He got arrested while eating a hash Brown at McDonald's. But this guy, Luigi Mangione, women love it. Like, it's all over the Internet. Like it's a thing. Like, there's a screenshot that I think I'm gonna share with Macy that's like, Luigi Mangione is hot af, right. There's pictures of him in, like, his abs and all this stuff. And so he's super attractive. And so, you know, when you sent this to me, I think you did kind of send it to me a little bit as like a tongue in cheek joke. And I was like, no, actually, like, this is a cool, cool question. And, and so not only is it great to have Macy here for lots of reasons, but Adam nor I are women. So Macy, you qualify as a. So do women. Macy, like, do women actually find criminals attractive?

I'm right here looking at these pictures and I'm. I'm attracted. I mean, they're very attractive. So I mean, the fact that they're criminals, I mean, certainly if we're kind of rusting a little bit from our previous episode or if you don't know what rusting is, it's romanticizing and lusting at the same time. Maybe we could use that term here. But I mean, I think a lot of women are attracted to that sort of fantasy, that dominance, that, like, bad boy. Anyway, so it's kind of in that category. Will they date them? You know, probably not, but there's an energy there, like, of the bad boy that a lot of women like.

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt these guys are physically handsome. Like, they walk into a room and it's like, oh, my God, this guy is incredibly attractive. But I think what's interesting about these is they're also, I think, emotionally draw in a lot of women. And I might take. Make. Make a few statements where I'm kind of stepping over. Macy, feel free to correct me, but, you know, Gary and I, we've as men, we have a unique perspective, having coached so many women. And I've seen women get drawn to the wrong guys. And what my take on this is, guys who are criminals like this, they're not rule followers, clearly, because they're criminals. Either they're murderers or whatever Jeremy Meeks did. Do we know? Actually, I don't even know offhand. Yeah, we'll have to look that up. But they're not rule followers. They play by. They Play by their own rules. And that in itself is incredibly attractive to women. And that's a lot of what I used to coach men on, is to be your own person and to be bold, to stand out, not be afraid of what other people think of you. And if you think about it, a criminal kind of does that to the max, you know, there's something like really attractive about that, I would imagine, to women.

Oh, definitely. I mean, who doesn't want to see that or emulate that within themselves? I think we get so into our status quo, doing the day to day things. Like it's gonna kind of interrupt that to consider for a moment like what it would be like to be with someone who doesn't care who breaks the rules. Just happens to be insanely hot. Like I. I'd go there mentally.

Yeah, sounds like you are. Sounds like you are actively.

I'm there. Truth. I arrived.

I do think, you know, it's weird, right, because in at least both of these cases, like these guys are both actually attractive, right? I mean, right around the same time that Luigi did his thing, allegedly there was a guy who, somewhere in the south, I feel like he drove his car through the front of the car dealer because he was upset about some rebate. Like he wanted to return the car and they wouldn't take it. But it's like he basically like breaking, entering, like vandalism, damage. I don't. I think he might have hit somebody too, but it was like he was a criminal too. But no one cared about him because he wasn't physically attractive. At least not as physically attractive as these guys. And so I do think that's an important thing. It's not just. Not just being a criminal, it's being attractive plus a criminal. And the criminality aspect, in these cases, it turns out not to be a deal breaker, right? And I think that's the issue. It's. I think a lot of what's going on is it's kind of mixing up masculinity with criminality. And so some of the things that people want in a partner that's very masculine, as you both have mentioned, like the dominance, the mystery, the excitement, it's all good stuff and it's all typical stuff, but it's like in the criminality is just that times 10. I also think there's this element of a little bit of a savior complex, right? With women, it's like, oh, I could change him. I see the good in him that nobody else sees with me. I'm special. It's going to Be different with me. I can do this in a way no one else can. And I think there's a little bit of a project element to it. Like, I'm going to make this happen.

That's a good point.

I mean, it's really exciting. It's exciting to be with someone who's a, who's a fixer upper. It's exciting to be with someone who is unpredictable. I mean, take Luigi versus a guy you go on a date with, who's just an accountant, does the same thing every day. And on the weekends he likes to play golf in the morning and then have his one beer, take a nap and then, you know, goes to bed. Luigi sounds fun. That sounds pretty fun. I want to hang out with Luigi over the accountant. I don't know. Sorry, I'm not really into accountants. It sounds super exciting and super fun. Yeah. But it comes down to are we just listening to our short term pleasure part of our brain where we're just like, oh, that's really exciting, that'd be fun. Or are we thinking about what is right for us in the long term? Clearly, Luigi is going to make your life complete nightmare. But you just are so drawn to it. And so I, I, I, I like this topic because I think it takes conversations that we have on a daily basis with clients. It takes it to the extreme and therefore kind of like enlightens a very important question that we need to face when we are dating. It's like, do we go for that short term? Oh, I'm just so drawn to this person. Or start thinking about what is right for us in the long term?

Yeah, that's what I, I like about these kind of topics because it's really like this academic thought experiment kind of thing where you just start to play with ideas and then it, it teaches you a little bit of how people think on a normal basis. Right. Like, so as you're talking about accountants, which I don't know why you always hate on accountants, I, for the record, Macy and I love accountants. It's just Adam, what if the crime like so both these guys that we've been talking about, their crimes are a little bit more of like the tough guy crimes. What if it was like Marty from the Ozarks kind of crime, like a little white collar. Ish. Like an accountant, like, was just kind of like fudging the books. Criminal white collar went, went to do some time for that. Is that attractive?

Well, I think that this is a good, like swing back into the middle conversation because how many women kind of criminalize the men out there. Like, anyway, like, oh, he's been divorced twice. Like, no. You know, and it's like this criminal offense level thing in a way, but you're talking about, like, actual crimes in the middle. I mean, I think this is where we have to be compassionate. And case by case, it depends, like, what is going on. I mean, I've had women who wouldn't date because they've been in the paperwork stage of a divorce for a really long time, but they've been out of the marriage forever, and they. They feel like they're not good enough to do anything. And that really, you know, we have to have these conversations and learn about people and figure out, like, what's really going on here. I mean, in the extreme cases, I don't see many, like, average, normal women going for, you know, murderers. That's a funny topic. And. But I kind of like talking about where we just criminalize anyone. Oh, you do this, you do that. Like, and it's this. This huge offense and creates a lot of energy around something that you don't need to put energy on. You just need to turn and pivot and go to the next.

So we decriminalize the criminals in our brain, and then we criminalize the good guys.

I think that does happen sometimes. It.

Sometimes it does happen. Yeah.

I think what's interesting about this topic, like, you know, I. So clearly 99.9% of the people listening to this podcast have no plans on dating. Like, ooh, criminal. I'm gonna go after him. And for most people listening to this, it would obviously be a deal breaker. But I do think, you know, it's fun to think about, like, what this phenomenon can teach us about real life dating.

Right?

So the criminal is that. That way out on the. On the tail, outlier, extreme kind of thing. But what types of things are people potentially attracted to that fall on the same spectrum?

Right?

And it's. I think there's a lot of. I like the strong, silent type, right? Like, that's a little bit on. On the edge, you know, Adam, you mentioned the bad boy thing. I mean, the research shows this is a real thing. Like, as they. Women like bad boys, right? And men don't like bad girls. They just want women that are happy. Right. And so, you know, women. There was a study where men who looked brooding and serious found more attractive than a guy who looked happy. And it's like, it's this like, weird masculinity thing that's just kind of, again, they're just Kind of overdoing it on certain traits. Like I like the strong silent type. And I think there's a lot of people who are listening to this that are thinking, yeah, I do kind of like that. Do you like, if you really think about it, like long term, like, will you want to talk to your guy about things like later in the relationship, you really want him to be strong and silent? Or do you want someone to be like, no, no. Tell me, tell me how your day went. Not so sure.

Well, there's a difference between what's attractive to us and what's good for us.

Yes.

And that's the key, is that you can be very attracted to a man who's a jerk. Like, and that's a real problem for a lot of women. Like, and that's, it's a very juvenile thing to lean into is like, oh my God. He can be, he's kind of a guy who's, who speaks his words in a way that is almost attractive. But that might be, that might like light you up in one part of you, but it's not good for you. Is it the same as like, it lights me up looking at a bag of Sour Patch Kids. But I know if I eat that, those Sour Patch Kids, I'm going to get a belly ache. It's not good. I'm attracted, guys, I'm attracted to Sour Patch Kids.

What can I say?

I shouldn't eat them. I shouldn't eat.

I don't think anybody on any, any podcast should say anything about being attracted to any kind of kids.

I'm just going to say I'm so attracted to Zarbach kids. Now we're not.

Candy. The candy, the candy, the candy.

I get out one a year and I'm good.

Kit Kats.

There we go.

Let me go in a different direction. Someone is going to splice that with like AI and it's just good be good. But you get my point. You get my point.

Are you ready to dive deep into the male mind and understand why it is we do what we actually do? Well, if so, I have a free training that's going to really help you understand, mention get out there and attract a high value guy that meets your needs. If you're ready for that, head on over to the lovesteps.com we have a virtual training there. It's going to walk you through this exact process that's worked for over 10,000 women worldwide. Again, head on over to the love steps.com and yeah, check it out. We'll get back to the podcast now.

Well, I wonder, though, I wonder if, like, because women, there's a lot of women who are nurturers, who are, like you said, Dr. Carey, like, they're seeing these. These broken men, and they're. They're pretty convinced that they can be the fixer.

Yeah.

And. And how many women have been in relationships where they have been doing it all there? They have a career, they're a mom, their wife, they're doing all this stuff to then just consider for a moment that there would be a man that would come in and, like, be strong and take over and lead that relationship. Sounds really good when you've had maybe 20, 40 years of something different. So the energy behind it, I think when you've been deprived of. Deprived of that feeling from a man could be magnetic.

Yeah. And I think some of that masculinity also gets kind of intertwined with feelings of safety and physical personal safety, which, again, I think kind of, given some of the things you just mentioned, Macy, like some of those contexts, that makes logical sense to some degree. But I think people forget and don't value nearly enough emotional safety. Right. And like, some of those same guys who are, like, tough and, like, physically imposing and, like, you can get a sense of physical safety around them. I mean, that's something. But it's not the emotional safety that you probably want and need long term. And the research shows, like, this. This sense of power is something that women are really attracted to in these contexts. It was a. There was a study done looking at how much women like movie characters, and they form what they call parasocial relationships with them. And so it's like identifying with that character, like, you know, finding them, you know, some character you see. And I think that's what happens with a lot of these, you know, people you see on tv, in the news, it's like, ooh. And you kind of like, imagine a relationship with them. And so really what's drawing them, this, this particular study found was the sense of power. Like someone who, like, you know, this Luigi guy or the other guy. It's like they seem very much in charge. And, like, that's a really good thing, and we want to be around that. But there is a downside that people don't always think of. And there's other research that shows very much to something Adam says a lot about. You're the average of the person you marry. Right. And so it's. You're the average of the person you're in a relationship with. When people are with others who are not great. Right. And we can assume a criminal is not great. The danger of dating like a bad boy type is you start taking on some of those traits yourself. Some of those, some research I've actually done myself on how yourself changes in relationships. We call this self adulteration.

Right.

So you get in a relationship with somebody and like their negative traits kind of rub off on you and you start being, you know, a worse communicator, not as good of a listener. Less empathy, less kind, whatever those things might be. But. But you basically take on some of those traits too. And so it's not a neutral experience like, oh, I'm going to help him and it's not going to be of any consequence to me. It is likely not going to go that way.

Yeah, I mean, I got nothing to add to that one. That is fascinating, Gary. I totally agree, Macy.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is what's so beautiful about having some guardrails, having a strategy, having, you know, that self awareness to not just go into these default mechanisms of like, you know, that's what I'm drawn to, but like really look at, you know, under the hood. Like what is it that I ultimately want to be or have or experience in this relationship. And you know, you mentioned that emotional safety. And we talk about this so much how that can kind of feel sort of boring at times, but it is really nurturing to the nervous system and our futures when it comes to healthy, lasting love.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, I think a lot of this comes down to, you know, you know, our original question is like, why do women seem to find criminals attractive? I think there are, we talked about a lot of reasons why it could be that this is the case. And you know, some of the nuance there, which I think is fascinating. I also do think a lot of people say it mainly just for attention seeking behaviors. Like it's like a hot take, controversial kind of thing, which I find really unfortunate that unhealthy relationship behaviors are being used. Like, why can't we just normalize having the good, healthy, safe, predictable partners that will help our nervous system long term. Like why, why do we, I don't know, like, can we do some of that too? And can't that be a hot take? Like, I don't know.

I think it is a hot take. You just happened to pick Jeremy and Luigi, who are extremely, extremely hot. Like you just kind of can't like sugarcoat that one. Like, yeah, they're hot, but like there are plenty of really hot nice guys. So if someone's out there listening and thinking, oh, my God, they're telling me I have to date an unattractive, boring guy. That is not what we're saying. We're not saying that at all. Like, you know, when you know yourself, when you know what you want to have for your future, then you will be attracted to the guy. That's part of the formula. It has to be attraction, compatibility and friendship. We're not skipping out on those.

Yeah, I just think what I've seen just. And we've all seen it with our clients. There's a difference in potency that comes from the really, really hot bad boy. That's very potently attractive initially, but then it. It falls off a cliff two months later. Whereas when you start to date a kind, nice guy who follows through with his words, he shows up for you in ways you've never experienced before. He brings you flowers, he tells you how he feels. It's not as potent at first, but it grows much deeper. So just by knowing that, like. And Macy, maybe, maybe that's not been the case for you. I'd love to hear your perspective on that as a woman dating. But I've seen it with a lot of our clients where I'm like, hold. The guy you're dating is a great guy and you are attracted to him and it's growing. And then you talk to them six months later, and they're like, I'm more attracted to this man by 10x multiple than any other guy I've ever been with. It's a matter of the time frame, of getting there. It's not immediate. It's not just like punching in the gut. Oh, my God, I can't stop thinking about this. It just grows. But it grows so much deeper. So I think that that's like the big shift that we're always reminding our clients of.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, for me, it was sort of expanding that view of all of the things that are attractive for me, you know, the, the kindness, the communication, the connection with interests. And, you know, that whole package is what, you know, I learned to, like, look for. And then it was really fun for me to look for that. And I was really attracted to that. So, I mean, I was never really the. The girl who went out with the extreme bad boys. But there are those ones that are really attractive that are very. Lots of riz. Lots of charisma that. And fun that you can get swooped away. But that really wasn't my habit. But I know a lot of people have that out there. And this is an education. It's learning what to look for, learning who you are, what you are all about so that you can pick better.

So so much to what you both said is it's, you have to be patient, right? Cause that good stuff takes time to build. I also, you know, just kind of listening to you both made me start thinking like, so people are generally impatient, right? And so this is part of the problem. And so what makes these bad, bad boys, those kind of like super charismatic guys that are like give you all like those potent chemicals and stuff early on so attractive? Because I think a lot of times people like to be lazy in love, right? It's like, what guy is going to be the one who like comes up to you and is like, hey, what's up? Like, it's not going to be the slow patience, slow burn guy. He's not going to try to, as Macy said, riz, you up, Right? It's not, that's generally not going to be his move. You know whose move that can be? Some of the bad guy. The guy who's a little bit confident, right. He's just, he's got like all that charisma and he's doing all those things. And it's like sometimes I think when I hear clients say like that's who they're attracted to, it's just because they're a little sensitive to rejection. They don't want to necessarily put themselves, they don't want to risk it to put the, put themselves out there. And so the bad boy types make it really, really easy, right? They're, they're doing all the hard work for you. So all you have to be is just like, yes. And then. And that's it.

Yeah. And scarcity, I think scarcity plays a huge role in this, right? Where it's like, oh, there's this is it. I'm just going to go for it. And not allowing for more space and the.

Macy, would you go on a date with Jeremy Meeks, yes or no?

I wouldn't because, I mean, he's stupid.

Hold your back. I don't think you, I don't think love strategies would be a good place for you if you went on a date with Jeremy.

No. I mean, but I've never really been like that. I've been usually I am the type of woman who didn't really ever have a type of per se. But my, my sort of pitfall was that if someone showed interest in me, I was like lifted up and like in on it, like, okay, well there's gotta be good. And I was good at seeing the good and not really directed or educating myself on, wait a second, who am I? What do I really want? And I would just find the good and sort of nurture that. And then three years later, nowhere. And, you know, and so that was the cycle that would keep going. It never occurred to me that I could say, oh, yeah, there actually is someone out there that could be aligned with who I was, but I'm kind of the weirdo. So the weirdo in me was saying, well, I'm way too weird for anyone. I'm absolutely going to have to pick the guy with the khakis. Even though it's just khakis, it's not doing anything for me, you know, but, you know, I do find that. Well, I found that once I did that inner work for myself, I had so many more choices. It was like a whole new caliber person showed up. And before long, I met Larry. And it was because I put in the work to look within.

Amen. Well, I feel like that's a great place to end. Thank you, Macy. That was super fun. And for those who enjoyed this kind of style of podcast, let us know in the comments because this is uncharted territory. We're trying new things over here and. And try to bring in other team members from Love Strategies to introduce you to. So thank you, Gary. Thank. Thank you, Macy. This was a fun one. Don't date criminals. Let's end there. What do we think?

Yeah, good. Good advice. I like that.

Okay, thanks, guys. Talk soon.

Bye. Bye.

Thanks.

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Bye. Bye.