96. "If joy comes along, you're on the right track". Interview with a wise soul, Marie-Pierre Dillenseger (Serie FELICIDAD)

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening. It has been a real pleasure to have a chat yesterday with Marie-Pierre Dillenseger, who's a wonderful person, woman, vitality activist, and a cat lover. And my cat is making a lot of noise at the same time I'm talking. You can hear that. I'm going to introduce this episode with a few quotes from Clarissa Píncola Estés. It's in Spanish, the quotes, from a book titled El baile de las mujeres sabias, which could be translated as The Dance of Women with Wisdom, The Dance of Wise Women. It's a book I read during The last days of December, and I'm totally in love with it. And that's why the first 3 months of these teachings I'm offering on Vinyasa Yoga Just in Time are dealing with the dance of wise women. And you're going to see that at one point the conversation is interrupted, Because this is a podcast which wants to be totally authentic, walking on the streets, and we are taking the risk to be interrupted. There will be some beautiful music. I'm going to put the credits on the description in the podcast so that you can take part in Marie-Pierre's conference on the 20th of January, and also so that you can visit her. Website. It's a wonderful talk and it's a wonderful meeting. Thank you. Today we're going to talk about vitality. This podcast will be in English because Marie-Pierre, our Guest today, she's French, but she lives in the United States, and her part of her work is in French. But also, it could be interesting to address what she writes about and what she recommends in the language of our— her daily life. And here in Mexico, we are very close to the United States, so we're kind of neighbors. And today's episode deals with a very important matter, which is vitality. There are 23 practices, 23 goals that Marie Pierre recommends as very important practices to be dealt with and very important goals to be addressed. These are Standing up. Becoming lighter and lighter. Loving our wounds. Worshipping our— the eldest.

Pushing ourselves. Disappearing.

Keeping on learning. Inhabiting our bodies. Connecting with the land. Allowing being bored. Celebrating our progress.

Not reacting.

Avoiding binary thinking.

Accepting.

Listening to the following generations. Nourishing our soul. Not giving up. Staying open to rebound. Practicing inertia, daring initiate, approaching problems the other way around, not ignoring death, and remaining vigilant. I'm going to ask Marie-Pierre, how would it be on a practical level? How would a week of our life look like on a daily basis if we really wanted to open space to these 23 practices? How would it be? How would the change would look like is something that interests me because I think people often agree with what we are saying here, but they don't know how to put it into practice. And that's why her book is very interesting because she, Marie-Pierre, really thinks about the practicalities and suggests very precise changes and very precise practices. She even suggests to Do a few things even if you don't have time. If you don't have— even if you don't have 1 minute, if you have only 5 minutes, you can do that. So it would be seeing how you can organize a day of your life which can be repeated again and again so that it makes a life, so that we ensure ourselves we get totally focused on these 23 objectives. And I'm going to ask her too about her life, how it has been for her, what events maybe have led her to get interested in these issues, why it has been something that has maybe taken her time and her writing, why, what led her to get there, to be someone whose work deals with vitality. I think it's very important. And also, I would like to ask Marie-Pierre about the event that I think will take place on the 28th of January and that she organizes. It's a conference on the Year of the Rabbit. Oh, mi valiente alma querida, bienvenida. Pasa, pasa, te estaba esperando. Sí, a ti y a tu espíritu. Me alegro de que hayas encontrado el camino que te ha traído hasta aquí. Siéntate un rato conmigo. Vamos a robarle unos momentos a todas esas cosas por hacer. Ya habrá tiempo para todo eso después. Algún día, todavía lejano, cuando lleguemos a las puertas del cielo, te aseguro que no nos van a preguntar si barrimos bien la acera. Ahí nos preguntarán más bien si elegimos vivir intensamente y hasta qué punto, no con cuántas nimiedades importantes llenamos nuestras vidas. Este es Hello.

Hello, Marie-Pierre. Good morning.

Good morning.

Good afternoon for you. As I understand, you are— we are not on the same time frame, are we?

No, I'm a little bit ahead, but I'm truly with you.

That's so wonderful. I'm so happy we can talk today. It's a great day, Monday, 16th of January, 2020. So it's a great day to start the year, a great way to start the year. I've put my— the non— do not disturb sign on my phone and I'm walking in the streets of Mexico. There's a very nice light and a nice winter sun. Where are you? What are you doing now, Marie-Pierre?

What do you think? I am on the eastern part of France. I'm in Europe right now. I went out I was outside to walk along you, but it started really pouring, so I retreated inside.

Right.

And I have a beautiful view of some mountains, and I'm just so happy.

Oh, I'm very happy too. You know, I met you first on the screens with Fabrice Midal. It was a really, really great program. I was very Very, very glad to meet you this way. And then I reached out to you and you answered very nicely, very kindly, and now we're here talking together. You know, this podcast talks about a bit of everything, everything that I think is important or that I believe should be addressed. And I think vitality, the way to feel alive, is something very important today. Many of my patients tell me that they really suffer from being tired. I think the whole society is tired, the whole of the society is tired, as you know in the book, The Society of Tiredness, that I've studied with my group here in Mexico. So when I read you, I thought, this is just wonderful.

Thank you.

these wonderful Marie-Pierre Dinenseger just addresses vitality and tells us how to deal with it on a practical level. And I think it's a wonderful book that I will recommend to everyone. And I know you have written other books too.

Yes, and but they do all center around the question of vitality, which is basically life force, you know. And the last one you mentioned that actually brought us together was also the result of my annoyance to have the entire world concentrate on issues of mortalities, you know.

Correct.

We, okay, we had to, we went, all of us, through a pandemic, and suddenly we— I don't think that we forgot, but we had this additional layer of concern, of gloom, because we were fed constantly numbers, death numbers, while, you know, the purpose of being together, of being on this planet— It's to be alive. So I decided that it was really time now to put what's essential up front, to— and to call the shots, which is basically—

Yeah.

What can we do to realize that the, the most precious quality and gift that we have is our life energy. What can we do to respect this, to honor this, and to feed it? So that was the entryway to my latest book, I would say.

It's amazing. It's wonderful because it goes, you know, I'm a practitioner, I'm a practitioner and a teacher of yoga, and I, I work very closely with the life energy, but you go much further. You go further. You, you address all the possibilities All the things that people could do when they really get conscious about the importance of, as you say, enrich the flame, right? To have the flame alive. Exactly.

I use the metaphor of the inner flame, and I think that I've also been honestly tired of seeing witnesses because I have an individual practice, so I do My real work, it's, it's, um, to actually, um, uh, I get— give consultation with people who are, uh, doing their best to try to stand up, to align themselves with who they are, and who are being fed, um, uh, an illusion.

Mm-hmm.

The illusion that life has to be difficult. The illusion that to live is basically to survive or to suffer.

Exactly.

And so I provide not an alternative— the alternative that I'm writing about, which is basically to focus on what not just keeps us alive, but seed our ability to feel lively, it shouldn't be an alternative. It shouldn't be a plan B. It should be the plan A. But—

Exactly.

And at various times in our life, I think we ended up forgetting that, and I dare to say what I'm going to say, that vitality, those life force, it is not just Some kind of privilege of a few. We are all born with a pack of it, a stock of it, a stack of it.

Mm-hmm.

Contrary to what we've been told, it is not the, the, the only— the fact that we're going to be depleted from it, the fact that it's going to be used up, you know, this is not a bank account. out of which the money would only gonna go out. It's a muscle, it's a potential, it's something that feeds who we are, and we have the responsibility to feed it, to respect it, to nourish it. And where, as maybe as you say, why take it a little further along, is that it is not just a matter of what we eat, what we do in terms of health practice. All these are the basis, they're important, they, they, of course. But it's also a matter of the choices that we make.

Life choices, yeah.

The choices, life choices, but it could be daily choices to, to drink maybe one less glass of alcohol tonight than what we would feel like. It's also, it's a matter of choice. It's a matter of places we choose to be in. It's a matter of people we choose to align ourselves with. It's a matter of little decisions. Like I'm talking to you. So I went back inside. I should be at my desk sitting. I Work standing. I am talking to you standing because for, for my health, for my body, to sit all day long would not be good. So—

It kills you. It kills you.

But, but, but it is, you know, like, that means that if I am in a hotel, I'm gonna need to pile a little, a little side table on top of a big table to be able, you know, it requires some adjustment, yeah?

Yes.

And so what I'm lobbying for is to get out of a mindset where we would be doomed to get eventually weaker and weaker, and as youth goes by, we would lose vitality. No, it is not true. At some point, we do die.

Of course we do.

We do die, but along the way, once— I think I may be talking too much. I'm so happy to be here.

You're not talking too much at all.

No, but, you know, I do see— I'm curious personally of who I am now. And not because I consider myself the center of the universe, but I know, I see the years that go by, the days that go by, as time given to me to find, to find more about what feeds my energy with the goal to enter more and more vibration with who am I. I'm trying to find an image, you know.

Sure.

And the more I do so, the more I become alive. And of course, this is a challenge. I'm going to take another image because in some ways we all, we enter this life naked. Actually, we enter this life really naked and with no, no no real roadmap, you know. We, we, and at the beginning and for a long time, we're gonna borrow clothes, you know, through our parents, through what society suggests, through what school teaches us, you know. And, and, but, but this, at some point, not—

I'm sorry.

At some point, to continue to comply with what I would call borrowed roadmaps. Because what works for you may not work for me. What worked for me may not work for my, for my neighbor. So—

Definitely.

Well, life is an exploration, like, uh, and an exploration that will give us through challenges and opportunity, a way to get closer and closer to who we are and basically also what we've come here to do.

Sure.

And that requires attention to our capital vitalité, our stock, stack of vitality. The more I comply to situations that rob me of my energy, you could say, the more I will use up those life force. On the contrary, and sometimes it's quite difficult to align yourself with what makes you tick, what gives you energy. But the more I do so, the more I, um, the stronger I get, the more able I am to, uh, bypass obstacles or, or move forward on a path that fulfills who I am. So, I'm talking too much, but—

No, you're not talking too much. I'm thinking that what you're saying implies maybe that in order to protect and enrich and nourish our vitality, we need to be totally anti-conformist.

Hello!

You—

yeah, and that would be Rebellious, that would be calling for social disorganization, because I might be able to get up to do my best output early in the morning, some other one would be in the evening, so how are we gonna manage this? The goal actually is to be loyal to the life force we carry. Because the more we do so, the more we're going to be able actually even to perform. So—

Yeah.

There is a sense of rebelliousness, or to— sure, but it's actually really amazing that, that, that we are not being taught how to find the best, sometimes it's a compromise between the situation, the jobs, the partners that actually nourishes us, and situation that actually we do somewhat still have to comply. In other words, in other words, we are the most useful to our partners to our colleagues, to our society, not when we forget who we really are, but when we find the best possible situation, and this is renegotiated often every day, with what we need to fully be alive. So—

Yes.

The difficulty is that often we starting asking ourselves the question of our energy level, our vitality, when we've already exhausted it or when there's a life—

Exactly.

Yeah, life accident or something. So eventually my work is to prevent those catastrophical scenario because we invest in what protects us early on. At the same time, I, I'm not, I'm not feeding the idea of illusions of miracles. I don't think that any of our techniques, I include yoga, I'm doing more Qigong, but I used to do yoga for, for many years, I don't believe that these practices are the only way to actually protect ourselves from— the only way to increase vigilance, so to increase— I don't think so.

Exactly.

It's part of a palette, you know, an array of possibilities. So the challenge is, once it's too late, we have first to rebuild before we can actually, you know, access vitality and full strength. But what I'm calling for is to try to be preemptive, you know, and at first, if when the people who are listening to us, I mean, there's this community I can see sense, you know, even like if you were in the same room, you know.

Yeah.

It takes some courage and effort to start saying no, a friendly no, but a firm no, to situations that will, that, that will erode some of our energy. You know, we've all been in situations where it's very difficult to say no. to, I don't know, like a Sunday dinner or a vacation somewhere. We've all been in situations where we don't want to hurt the other person and it's difficult to say no, although we know it would be better for us to retreat at that time.

That's true.

But by saying yes repeatedly every day at work, at home, With the family, to saying yes to situations that eat up our life energy, we're saying no to our vitality. And this is long-term— a few days, it's okay, a year or two, why not— long-term, this is catastrophic. This is the best way to actually become You know, to call for some kind of weakened immune system.

Of course, yes, a disaster, an organic disaster.

And the other things that I want to say is that what I, I think I can, I'm assertive in saying this, vitality, so basically which is another word for for life energy, you know. It's like a muscle. You feed it maybe just 5 minutes a day by doing, by taking— I heard birds earlier when you were walking.

Yeah.

By giving yourself 5 minutes on the bench on your way to work, if you're walking to work, listening to birds, you know. The amazing thing is That, that muscle, you give it 5 minutes a day, it pays back very quickly. The returns— it's a muscle that very quickly responds. And, um, I can describe it, I can say it, but it's amazing to experience it. A little bit like, imagine you haven't done exercise For a long time, at beginning you don't want to do it. Then you do it a little bit, and and then gradually it comes back there, and and you can't stop. But when we talk about physical exercise, a lot of people are going to say yeah.

Tal vez has venido hasta mi puerta porque quieres vivir de forma que llegues a alcanzar. El bendito estado de ser una anciana joven y una joven anciana, como a mí me gusta llamarlo, lo que significa vivir llena de interesantes paradojas que se mantienen en justo equilibrio. No olvides que la palabra paradoja significa idea contraria a la opinión establecida. Y así son las cosas para la grand-mère, la mujer más grande, la gran madre. Porque ella es una mujer sabia en ciernes que acumula en lo más profundo de su mente capacidades aparentemente ilógicas, pero maravillosas y muy útiles. Esas maravillosas habilidades paradójicas son principalmente ser sabia, pero estar siempre buscando algo nuevo que aprender, ser espontánea y a la vez fiable. Ser tremendamente creativa y a la vez decidida, ser osada y a la vez cuidadosa, proteger lo tradicional y a la vez ser original y auténtica. Espero que seas consciente de que todo esto se te puede aplicar a ti en mayor o menor medida. Puede ser todo esto en potencia, a medias o casi por completo. Wow!

Hello!

Sorry, disconnected.

It's part of the game, you know. It's okay. It's precisely what can happen in a form of doing things like that. I mean, the podcast, which is authentic and where you're walking, there's noise there. Yeah, exactly. That's why I love the way I love to do it this way, even if there's this risk of being disconnected. But you were— it was very funny, you know, because you were talking about the birds and suddenly a helicopter came into my noise frame and it just disconnected. That was so funny. I think it represents so much.

And that's the, you know, like the— that's what makes it actually brings joy to me when there are little coincidences. like this, which actually are not coincidences. It's just a sign that we connected with something bigger than us. So I don't know if I pick it up or if you, you, um, I don't let you— I'm interested in what you do also.

Thanks, Marie-Pierre. Well, you, you know, I'm a, I'm a yoga and meditation teacher. I'm also a psychoanalyst and a It's like a hypnotherapist.

Yeah.

But I used to be a— I was a teacher for a long time, and I think there is a— when we're talking about a society that we're talking about, the burnout society, or a society that doesn't teach us, that doesn't teach us how to protect our vitality, how to protect our life force, I think it's part of a system. It's not something that's taught in the family, it's not taught at school, it's never— and then the kids grow up and they start working, it's not taught in firms, and it's never taught. And then you need to get to a life-threatening situation and start asking yourself questions, and sometimes you're 40, 50, 60, and then maybe life can start at that point. you know, on another total term. So I would— yes, tell me please, Marie-Pierre.

No, but I do think that we, in some ways, you know, the few years that we've just gone through, which brought back the fear of death and also the reality of our human life, there is an end to this life. I had some hope that it would strengthen our dedication to life at an individual level, and I— it did for some person, but it is so difficult without the support of—

Community.

a therapist, a friend, some voice of wisdom who allow us to concentrate on what's the most vital for each of us. Without those discourses, one will quickly find himself or herself isolated, because the minute you start, as I said earlier, saying no to to situations that will deplete your energy, you could become an outcast, like someone who would only eat vegetarian and not— but this— so there's a challenge in a society that has performed for many decades, for at least 2 centuries now, by really asking all of us— to conform, to be—

Exactly.

One way. What, what I'm trying also to say is that it's basic, it's the basic, huh? Each of us is unique. Each of us is unique. We have different paths to strengthening our life energy. But what, what, um, but, and, but that's What is not said is that it is, before everything else, a personal, an individual responsibility, and it is achievable. So until— Yes, it is. That message has not been passed, you are in charge of your own capital vitality. It could be strengthened or it could be wasted. And second, It pays back very quickly, it is worth it, at the risk of ruffling a few feathers sometimes, because you may not want to do what you're supposed to do all the time. We are stuck without a model that is giving us light, you know, so in some ways those last 2 years have been for me even more intensive. These last 2 years showed me another sense of urgency, you know.

Exactly.

To pass a message that indeed, as you said, is not in school, is not in society, and it's a useless fight fear to think that society will be disorganized. No, there will be some adjustment, but vitality will gain, and, and a society that is in good shape is the result of individuals that are in good shape. So in other ways, whatever you do, whatever I do, whatever the people who are listening to us do, on a daily basic basis to respect their life energy and to feed it collectively, it has a social impact, a positive one.

Huge, yes, huge impact. Yes, for example, I remember, you know, I told you that I organized a retreat just after reading your book, and where it was really totally based on your book. It was great. And for example, people were saying But how can I stand up at work? Everyone is sitting. They will look at me as if I— they will look at me as if I'm, you know, a total craze. And I was saying, well, who cares? Yeah, who cares?

And, and also, just do it. Do it one day. It will attract attention. There could be some sarcasm, but as you will see the benefit within a few days. You will also attract— how do you say, you know, you create a movement basically.

Yeah.

It's funny, the few people who— I love when people share their stories, but those who share their attempt to work standing up, I mean, the testimonials that were coming is that it's funny because now we're 3 doing it. Oh, there's always those who, who smile, who criticize, but it creates emotion. So one of the chapters in my last book is Dare to Initiate.

Exactly.

Do it first and then wait, concentrate on what it does to you. Don't conclude too soon. That's, that's something that we do, Westerners. We don't see results quickly, we conclude it will not happen. No, give time to time.

Very impatient, a lot of impatience.

And, and the, the good ideas are often copied without a note that goes with it. So just give it time. And what matters is that by you standing, you, your digestion will be better. So that's a gain.

Yes, a total gain. And yes, tell me, you were, you were saying, I mean, there are 23 practices. I'm sure you had to make a choice because I'm sure you You know, many more practices of life.

Yeah, there's a— they keep coming at me. So yes, I had to make choices.

So there will be a second book?

Well, I mean, this actually was the fourth. I think this was the fourth book. There's 2 coffrets. There's more books indeed coming. The, you know, what I try to identify were those that were the most easily implemented. It's always, you don't really need much equipment, it could be done quickly, and it have— it's the best investment for the result, the best return on investment on a large scale.

Yes.

Now, once you read those, you will be prompted to Uh, start some other practices that will emerge from the energy gain you will get. So, um, it's infinite.

It's infinite, it never stops.

And most of these exercises, they're all tailored according to the person. Each person will, will find their own version. There's one that I think I didn't put in this book, which I think could be useful also. You know, when we try to do something and we have doubts, oh, is it really worth it? Am I really capable of doing this? And maybe it's too late to do that, but that change— I always recommend to ask yourself the question, who is talking? Is it Is it really you making a very clear assessment of the situation, or is it the voice of a teacher from when you were 5 years old, a parent when you were 30 years old, whatever? Very often when we have those voices, those, those insights, if you try to be attentive, we realize that the root of that doubt is in what you were told when you were 12 years old trying to go to school in, in, by bicycles, where you wanted to have the bicycle and your parents wanted you to take the bus. So, so, so. Mm-hmm. Before concluding that whatever you're trying to change or to adjust or to do, usually good for yourself, will not work. Try to find out which ghost— I like ghosts— but which, which memory is talking to you over the shoulder and tell them, tell them to go elsewhere, to stop disturbing you.

You're very polite.

Yeah, because I'm not gonna insult them. They're, they're slowing me down. I, I usually also think that I give credit to the other person, you know, this, this, you know, you, that your parents was just worried for you, or they, they couldn't imagine, you know, when people leave corporate world these days to go to start a little business, you know, like family, friends, they may genuinely— be worried. How is he gonna pay for this? How is she gonna do this? Just, okay, sure, you are not them. Your life is your life. Only you can really tell if something is good or bad for you. So that's the voice you have to listen to.

It's, it's about patience, trust, and some, a bit of anti-comparison. conformism, knowing that at the end of the day you probably will help people with this anti-conformism, maybe later, maybe you'll never know about that.

And also I would add another adjective which would be kindness to yourself.

Kindness, yes.

I think I've read somewhere that I sometimes, I see that people spend more time, energy, and money into the maintenance of their cars or the maintenance of their gutters, the, the, then, then, uh, they own, and that compared to their own vitality. It's amazing.

That's so sad.

Yeah.

Yes, it's sad. Yeah.

It's sad, but, um, and, and also all these exercises, all these mindset, I think at the end it's a mindset. You know, because it's actually a very wise, cheap investment with a high return. It's worth it.

Yes, definitely. I believe you practice Chinese medicine, right?

Yes, of course.

And in Chinese medicine—

I'm not a Chinese doctor. I'm not practicing. No, but I know enough, you know. I have— but I'm just to be clear, my way to accompany my consultation, it's about— it's all these principles but applied to the posture, to decision-making, to alignment with yourself. It has a little— anyway, continue. But I see it.

I think it's amazing. Yes. And in Chinese medicine, the idea is never to go and visit The doctor.

Bien sûr, bien sûr. And, and, and yeah.

Yes, it is to avoid going and see him or her, and it's not— it's never an urgency visit. And we Westerners are used to go to them, see the doctor, when the house is on fire.

Absolutely, absolutely. And, and, but, but, um, um, that's why I also want to add kindness, because to usually also we get early signs of problems. We get early signs, you know, we have the beginning of a back pain.

Mm-hmm.

You, um, you have a little headache when you go to sit in the same type of dinner that— but there's a few disturbance. But because we are taught to be strong and to be facing difficulty and that we have to do this and we don't want to lose face and we don't want to admit that we can't go to that, we can't do that thing that is actually so, so energy-consuming, we do not We discount and we do not pay attention enough to the early signs.

Very important, very important.

And actually, there's also— it's interesting because my specialty is also to use time, the energy of time. So there's a link with Chinese astrology, but in any way, so The Chinese Spring, the beginning of the year, it's always— it always coincides with the first day of spring in the Chinese calendar, which is—

Yeah.

Between the end of January and early February. Because at that moment, if we look outside, we— you could see that the light is already different. could see that there is the, the arrival of a new energy. But for us, our calendar, Westerners, times the spring when the signs of spring are very visible. So for us to consider something real, the spring, our problem, it has to be visible and big.

Exactly.

Well, the Chinese way includes even in its calendar the recognition of an energy while it's still at its premises, and that's a very different mindset, mindset. So—

Very, yes. It's about subtlety, is this the capacity to be subtle.

And, or what I call for is not to wait for a problem or anything to be settled.

I—

it's going to be a play of words— I call for attention to subtle energy, the early sign of energy. And when you start navigating this way, first of all, I think life becomes much more interesting. It's talking to you. You'll see that signs are talking to you and you don't— I'm not calling for superstitious, I'm only calling for this discerning energy, discernement en français. And the earth, that's another thing that is not being taught actually, see, how to read signs.

Yes.

How to distinguish something that would be a true message from your intuition and your true intuition Sorry for the noise, Marie-Pierre.

There's a huge, huge truck.

It just confirms the— Exactly.

Nothing subtle at all, this truck.

No, but because that's what we have to stress. So it's, you know, to me, I consider the fact, and it's just not me, but it's also all the teaching that I've been, that I've been doing, but I've been learning, and with the Taoism philosophy or way of being, put it behind me. We have, we are the universe, the bigger things, time and space. They're continuously interacting with us. We can ignore it and go through life with closed eyes and metaphorically waiting for things to happen, or we can engage in what I call an active collaboration with what is bigger than us. And it's amazing how synchronicity and sign may suddenly start playing out.

Amazing.

And it becomes, it becomes a dance. It becomes a dance.

It's true. I agree. Yeah.

That doesn't make me, for example, immune from sadness or frustration, but because I know time is energy and, and I know that another, you know, like basically I know that the sky doesn't stay gray all the time. There is, there is blue, blue skies, there is things is constantly moving, time is constantly moving. So I tend to not conclude. Actually, I don't conclude much. I go with the flow.

Yeah.

So, and I feel that there's a lot of pain that exists because people would conclude prematurely that they won't succeed, they won't be able to do this, they won't be able to be simply happy. And that's, that's, comment dire, that's very sad. And it's a sadness that is unnecessary. It is being fed by a society that does not allow us to investigate who we are. And invest in who we are. And this is not actually that difficult to do once we understood the ratio between, on a daily basis, what feeds us and what depletes us.

Yes, exactly. It's, isn't it, the, the most important thing in this life to know who we are? And to— it's just when you start investing who you are is a wonderful adventure. It's the most amazing story when you start to know yourself. I was asked when we were talking about having this conversation together, I was thinking, you know, people are really skeptical about it because of all the things we've mentioned today. But how would you say a week would be structured? How would you— how is your day, you know? You're the one who's practicing all these practices and surely more. How do you— what time do you wake up? What do you do? I mean, not to say that it's the only way to do it, I understand that, but I think it could be very inspiring.

Yeah, but for me, which I— first of all, I'm an old person right now. I'm kind of, you know, I'm over 60. I don't feel myself old a minute, but You don't even sound it at all.

I don't think it's true.

But it took me— it's been a path, you know, and there's been obstacles, there's been difficulty. I mean, I know, for example, for me, that early on I knew that to live close to the ocean gives me a tremendous amount of joy. It took me 39 years to be able to get closer to that, you know. So meanwhile, I'm gonna answer your question. Meanwhile, I always made sure that I would live in a place that had a bathtub and not just a shower because it was my little sea until I— but I never lost the goal that one day I would be able to get closer to the ocean.

Beautiful.

So for me personally, in my day, I really applied this, this discipline which is to not spend a day without moving my body. So which either when I have very busy days I go swim, you know, I do laps. I go, I force, and I never want to go, I never want to go, but I go, I go because I know That when I'm gonna come out, I'm gonna be even surprised that I didn't want to go. So it's difficult, but I do it. Otherwise, I find ways to walk a certain set of kilometers or miles every day because my work is intensive, and I do know that if my body doesn't move, I'm gonna keep my feet in my head.

I'm—

everything I'm going to do it. So, so I stop, I go out, I walk, I move, I wash it away.

Yeah.

There's not a single day where I don't make one attempt to get to, to do something that I really like. It could be to be connected with the sound of birds. It could be We all have our things, but— and to navigate my weeks, every night I take my own pulse. This is metaphorically. To see, to scan my level of energy.

Right.

And now I do it on the fly. I am able quite quickly to identify the moment, It's always the same thing. It's either a certain place, a certain decision, a certain action, certain people that actually use me up more than what I want.

Mm-hmm.

And as I get that information, I put it back, it's input back in the system. And every day I make a conscious effort to get closer to situations that feed my energy and to say no. So I'm known to say no. I've learned— very difficult, very difficult—

Yes.

To say no in situations that I know will not be good for me at this point in my life or in my week or in my year. So it's difficult because you— it's difficult, but I do it. Yeah. And, and the other thing is that I'm very attentive. I get joy from the food that I eat. So I've learned over the years not to eat— I know the food that does me good and I know the food that do not me good. So diet, exercise. And activities that are un trio gagnant, you know.

Yes.

So you— one could say, well, but not everyone can go outside and walk. Yeah, it's true, but maybe you could stand behind your desk instead of being sitting.

Exactly, that's a start.

Yeah, there's always a little plus that you can add to your day. Remember the example of this woman with the jam, you know?

Really?

I didn't finish that story. The story is much longer. This woman was not that happy about my suggestion, and I remember she left my office saying like, why? And but she actually went to buy the jam she liked and stopped eating the stuff she didn't like or she was eating to please her husband. And then there's a long story. Today she's not with the same person, she doesn't live in the same town.

Of course.

And you imagine, and she's in a different activity. I mean, not everyone has to go to this, but it's one day, a little bit. And if you know that time is a friend and that time will is moving along you a little bit every day will take you a long way. And this is not me making things up. This is like, it's somewhat of wisdom. But what I'm saying is that you don't need to be a Chinese master or someone who's meditating 10 hours a day to achieve a fulfilling—

Mm-hmm.

Life. You just pick it up tonight, today, and a little bit every day.

It's wisdom, active wisdom, as us being human. It's like maybe, you know, breaking the GPS that we've inherited and building a new one. What you're saying is about a new GPS, a new way to To move forward.

Actually, I think I would say that, I would say it's to get to the original GPS we were born with.

Yes, exactly.

That got forgotten, that got pushed aside for some kind of other path that has been sold to us. And I want to add something, it's going to It could seem vain, but I'm gonna have to say it because it, it was a big change. I do travel a lot, and sometimes across the ocean, and I, at some point, I felt I was, I was a— I was going to refuse some opportunity to give lectures because I did not want to be without my 2 cats.

Oh yes.

Okay, so So it was unreasonable to travel with them. You know what? I made it happen.

How?

Well, I said it's not gonna be or, either or, it's them. So I fly with them.

That's amazing.

You know, so it's totally ridiculous. one could say, because at my age I should be able to leave my cat alone. But there's one time where zooming on the sadness it gave me not to have them in a, in a place, in a foreign place somewhere, I realized that the world would not fall apart and it would do me good. So now there's one looking at me and the other one And I consider them also when I write, they are my co-authors.

They're there. Of course.

This is a very silly thing. It's personal to me, but for so many years I were— I was under the impression that I had to give up. I had to do without. No, that's not true. So find your own conditions. It's not true.

Exactly, I think what you said, the word ridiculous, it's something very powerful. People generally, we as humans again, are so worried about what people think about us, and this idea of ridiculous, what does it mean really?

Yeah, who cares? Who cares?

Because it doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, so I don't, you know, I've, I just, it's a choice. It's a choice that feeds my vitality. And you know what? I've never regretted once, ever.

I believe you totally. I have 5 cats and I know exactly what you're talking about.

I have 5, it's more, but you know what I'm saying.

More complicated.

Yeah.

I know, I know. Exactly, but I mean also animals, the presence of animals is really about what we're talking about today, it's vitality, the presence, I mean for me at least, I'm sure for you and many other people, being surrounded by nature and animals is a guarantee of vitality.

Yeah, yeah, and also once you've identified the source sources of sadness or fears, for example, it could be wise to minimize the amount of time you would watch some channels that— TV channels or news channels that actually— if this is an advice I would give, you know. So every night for one week, let's say 5 days, every night you give, you give to your vitality level. So at the end of the day, not at the beginning, at the end of the day, you give to your vitality level a grade between 0 and 10, 10 being the highest.

Mm-hmm.

You write it down and you may make a little list of what you've identified as depleting and what you've identified as being really good today. You do that for 1 week. Then this is a diagnosis phase, very, very instructive, and it doesn't take long. But write it down so you actually can read it, you don't forget about it. And then week 2, you adjust. You increase a little bit. What was feeding you and you decrease a little bit what was depleting you. So if you realize that watching that channel makes you sad, um, watch 5 minutes less of it. I'm not saying don't watch it, just minimize it. Because in some ways you have the hand on the robinet, the faucet.

Yes.

And, and more often than we think, we have the ability to adjust the temperature.

Exactly, I understand. You don't need to watch Netflix for 10 hours, you don't need to eat the whole chocolate.

Or from time to time, do indulge in it. Do indulge in it fully and then—

Have a feast.

Okay, because, because, you know, it's always a balance, you know. So if you really, really want to do it and if it still takes too much of your energy to block it, go for it, then adjust.

I like that. Yes, it's, it's really about listening to, to a Ourselves on the, on all the levels, wholly, wholly, right?

And keeping track.

Yeah, keeping track, keeping track. I think it's very great advice as a journaling activity for, for the evening and be— and before sleeping. It's a really great piece of advice, Marie-Pierre. And I wanted to, to ask you if, without being too private, maybe as you wish, if you could tell us What if you were born with this wisdom or if you had to touch the life-threatening limits to endeavor this new journey?

Hello, I think I was always curious of life, maybe by nature, and but I think the turning point in actually changing my way of work was a moment where— so over 25 years ago now— where some— whether an American doctor, a surgeon, a top doctor in the US told me that I had 3 months left to live because I had massive tumors in my liver. Wow. I had been interested by the Chinese approach, by Taoism, by I Ching since really my teenager years. So it was always with me. But because when I was told you only have 3 months to live, I— it was devastating. And but there was something in me, assuming I would make it, assuming this wrong, you know, this, what am I gonna do? And immediately what came to me was the type of things that would really feed my life energy. It was I would spend 100% of my life, not 100% of my work life, investigating further in those disciplines that I was doing on the side without telling my colleague as a hobby in a way.

Amazing.

And yeah, so that kickstarts, that really jumpstarts, because it turned out also that it was misdiagnosed, you know. So it was a big operation and so on, but I survived it. And it was, it was really bad. But I had actually more time to live. And from that moment on, I, comment dire, I refused to waste any of my precious minutes that turns into months that turns into years in doing something that didn't have The, the, the, the right vibration.

That's beautiful. And, and then you got totally cured after a while? After—

Yes, yeah. But what I find interesting, because again I'm also very much vested in, in Chinese astrology and in the I Ching, is that usually we credit, we think that those disciplines will tell the future, while they're not predictive in nature. They are there like, like an acupuncturist. I mean, you know that better than me. With the roadmap of the balance, you get the, the balance of strengths and weaknesses of the person, but you're not going to be able to predict, you know, Of course.

You—

and, and so you had, according to the Chinese astrology, they needed change. My life, I needed to face massive change. And it was really the death of something, but it was the death of my previous way to do things. While the scientist, the doctor, the specialist, you know, US trained, put a prediction on me. So that's because I studied math and physics in my previous period of life. There was something that was not matching, you know. Science—

Exactly.

Does a prediction. Those arts that are supposed to be predictive, they just inform me that I need to realign. So that's where I really realized you know, these techniques are really worth, you know, investing in.

Of course, yes.

And so that's one way. And one could say, you know, when I talk to my friends, they say, well, you were already so much into that thing. So one can say it was just un déclencheur, you know, it was Yes, it triggers.

You didn't have anything to lose.

So when you didn't have anything to lose— but I lose, I quit my job, I mean, I had actually things to lose, but because I think that the most important things that we could lose is life, nothing else is important in some ways.

Exactly. In reality, it's losing in order to win. It's winning while losing.

And also, when vitality, you know, if you compare vitality with fuel, it's a sustainable fuel in your system. So the main goal is to feed that durable fuel to make it sustainable. And this is— when this is done, we achieve all our other goals better. When vitality is fed, you can go after money, after success, after things, but you need vitality to go to the other goals. And so that's a little bit personal, but—

Thank you so much, Marie-Pierre, for sharing that because it's I think your story is extremely inspiring. Of course, I had read you and heard you with Fabrice Midal, and I knew, but I think I thought it was very important to talk about that again, to share, because it's just, you know, inspiring people is very important when you're sharing that.

What is sad is is that we often need a life-threatening experience to reconnect with our vital energy. And then life gets better.

That's true.

Life gets better. You heal maybe. And then we have the risk, we run the risk to forget our promises. And I remember very well when my job was calling me back, you know, actually you good shape, you should come back, you know, we want you back. And we could— and, and it was very tempting. It was very tempting. I was— it was tempting because, you know, it was, it was supposedly safe to go back to something that I knew. But this is a moment which I call in my books, these are thresholds with destiny.

Yeah.

These are moments of decision where it looks like you're choosing the unknown. It's gonna be risky. It's gonna be— you don't know where we're going and so on. But often that choice is— it will feed your life more than the safety of something that should be concluded and left behind. So, so—

These are very wise words. Yes, exactly. And you probably have a moment of doubt and then you know that there's no doubt at all.

Yeah, and I had— you mean a moment? I had many moments of doubt. I met obstacles, I met sarcasm, I met criticisms, even in a close circle, because remember I also opened ways in I went towards a profession that, you know, nobody knew about, that is not easy to explain, and so on. But in some ways, this is the price to pay when you open new ways. I finally understood this.

And I'm probably a very annoying person for a So yes, this is a very high, very high cost, but as you said, there is a very high return on investment.

Yes, yeah, exactly. And that gave me the pleasure to meeting you, that gives me the pleasure to feel connected with the people who are listening to us. You know, we think we're alone in those moments, but we're not alone.

No, we're not. And I think everything is connected, you know. Yeah. And I really do believe everything is connected. When, for example, I'm listening to you now, I'm thinking about some workshop I'm going to start very, very soon about nonviolent communication. And, you know, you know perfectly Rosenberg talks about enriching our life, and it's about what we're talking about. And when I'm also thinking about another workshop I'm starting soon on Alice Miller, and, you know, which is a foundation for me, I mean, she— Oh, well, yes, and I— well, me too. And I'm opening this cycle of reading, and we are starting on this Friday, today in French, and this Friday in Spanish. And also she says the same thing. She says that, you know, the 4th commandment doesn't allow us to recognize the basic, that this was, you know, a situation. So it's about everything is connected, I think, in this attempt to be faithful to what one is.

Yes, and, you know, a title of one of her books is For Your Own Good, which is actually not the— you know, it's what society's all, this is for your own good, you need to be obedient, or you need to do this, and you need to— and what I'm really lobbying for is for each of us to be in charge of identifying what is really for our own good. And one side One sign is joy. If you doubt—

Exactly.

You know, if joy comes along, you're on the right track. If joy eludes you, there's still some digging that needs to be done. So joy is an incredible guide. And it's— when we are coherent with ourselves, aligned with ourselves, present to ourselves, joy arrives right away.

Exactly.

So it's the first parameter, isn't it? Does this give me joy? It doesn't? Okay, then move on.

Exactly. This is really a great way to sort things out. And it is not just because I want to be happy, smiling all day long. Long, you know, in some kind of course not. No, that's not what we're talking about. And and also from the outside, we see you can see that that joy. You see it in other people. You see it.

Okay, yes, you you you it's visible. It's visible. It's it's palpable. It's visible, and it gives me a lot of joy to talk with you, Marie-Pierre.

And also joy is contagious.

So yes, it is. So I'm so grateful, very, very, very grateful for this conversation that we've been— we've been waiting 6 months to have it, almost 6 months, but it was really worth the wait.

And it's close to the Chinese New Year, so it's close to renewal. Yes, timing is good. It's a good timing, actually.

Actually, it's a very good timing. And I was— so that we can say goodbye, before we're saying goodbye, I really would love to talk about our next meeting. I signed up to your conference on Saturday the 28th, so if you could just say to the people who are listening to us what it is about, and then I will send all the information.

Okay, so this is a lecture, the lecture of the Chinese New Year, which I've done. This is going to be the 22nd, I think, year that I've been doing this. It's an hour to present, to decrypt, to give the highlight about the energy of the year. So the, the idea is to provide advice, guidance, that may not be the right word, but the output of those lectures for so many years is an adjustment of our position, a change or an adjustment of posture. In other ways, to know what the year brings, like a wind, will not determine what I will do, this year, but will allow me to prepare. Like when you have the Weather Channel, when you are being told there's going to be wind or there's going to be rain, you have the freedom to pick up or not an umbrella. But here we're not going to talk about weather, we're going to be talking about the qualities, the personality, the strength of the wind this year. Year of the energy of the year. So it's usually been followed by people who are— it's open to anyone. You don't need to know anything about the Chinese reading, but it often attracts people who are in, comment dire, in position. It gives visibility and perspective. So it's useful For, you know, if you— for the economy, for— there's a side with politics, economy, and individual posture. So, and there's a replay.

Okay, so it will be this Saturday. Is it at 10 AM on Saturday 28th?

In French time, so it's the middle of the night in Mexico, but you get within 24 hours, you get the full event With replay, and then there's an hour of questions and answers, so it's very dynamic.

Wonderful. Okay, great, great. And I'm going to put all the details on the description of the podcast, which we probably will be published today. And generally it's very quick because it's very, you know, natural, and so things are organic.

Organic is a key word for 2020. There's the spontaneous, organic— that's very much aligned with the energy of the new year.

Well, anyway, perfect. So it's the rabbit?

Yes, the water rabbit.

So it's the water rabbit, isn't it? Okay, okay. I'm tiger, so I'll ask you later on if it's a good year for the tiger.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I'll be quiet now.

Thank you so much, Marie-Pierre, from the bottom of my heart. I'm so happy and so thankful. I'm sure many, many people will be asking and looking up to what you do and, and your therapies and your book. I really recommend, and I'm going to keep on reading you and hopefully keep in touch with you, Marie-Pierre.

And thank you very Very much. I'm the one who's really thankful, and and again, I can feel the presence of people around us. So we are a team. Let's move forward.

Yes.

Okay.

Let's move forward. Okay. Of course we will. Thanks a lot. As we say here in Mexico, abrazos, abrazos fuertes.

Merci, merci beaucoup.

Merci, Marie-Pierre. Bon après-midi et à très bientôt. Au revoir, bye bye, merci, bye bye.

El podcast Just in Time se inició para salir a la calle durante la pandemia, era un walk and talk podcast. Ahora seguimos en otra modalidad, puede ser walk and talk, puede ser simplemente analizando con calma Sin tener que movernos, pero los temas permanecen los mismos: filosofía, psicología, psicoanálisis, literatura. Actualmente mucho tiene que ver con yoga y la relación con la liberación del trauma. Todos los temas que nos interesaron durante la pandemia siguen, permanecen, ahora bajo distintas modalidades. Puede ser que esté yo sola o bien acompañada. Este es el podcast Just in Time.