How a $5 Billion Empire and a Governor’s Race Shaped Jeff Burningham

What in the hell was I thinking? I had become a human doing. I had become addicted to doing. Running a multi-billion-dollar private equity firm with two partners, launching a venture fund, investing $100 million in venture capital. When you're climbing that mountain, the more you do, the better. The more climbing, the better. There's always something more you can do. Climbing my little mountain of success.

Did it work?

There's nothing up there but a cold howling wind. Jeff Berning Ham, founder of Peak Capital Partners, early investor in billion-dollar companies, builder of multi-billion-dollar assets, and board member of 20-plus firms. He's taught entrepreneurship as a professor, traveled to more than 60 countries, ran for governor, and now shares his journey as the author of the last book written by a human. When AI can do so much of what we're used to do better than us, when there is— I think that there will be significant job loss.

The question is, where do Humans derive meaning if they no longer have to work.

My first semester of MBA school, and he said, I want you all to close your eyes and to think of the thing that is most highly motivating you now. I'm a big dreamer, so I was kind of like, okay, cool, I'm going to settle in here and see what I think about. But what happened scared me, like kind of scared me straight, scared me to death.

Money doesn't buy happiness, but not having money buys a lot of unhappiness.

Amen. Yeah.

But if money didn't make you happy, what does wealth mean to you now?

I would say two things.

Number one, welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations with founders about money, meaning, and what makes a truly rich life. Today I'm on the road in Provo, Utah, here joined by—

on the road, baby. I like it. Bring this on the road. The road show.

Absolutely. World tour. I'm joined by, by Jeff Burningham, legendary tech venture capitalist, real estate investor, founder of Peak Capital Partners, and is now releasing a book that I think is fantastic called The Last Book Written by a Human.

Thank you, Mike.

Let's start there. Tell me about the title and what does that mean to you?

It's a great question. It's interesting. The title came to me about a year ago, and at least to me, what it means is it was kind of like if I was— I'm 48 years old. If I was plopped on this earth at 48, you know, just kind of here and was curious about what in the hell is going on, like, what is existence? What am I doing here? What am I doing embodied? And then what is AI? Like, you know, AI is a thing in the air here, you know, I'm saying, on Earth. It's happening, it's changing, it seems to be very consequential. Like, to wrap my whole head around that, this is the book I'd want to read. So that's kind of, uh, obviously, hopefully it won't be the last book written by a human. Although, you know, like, I did painstakingly write every word myself except for the foreword, which is a little bit of a twist. ChatGPT wrote that. But so I, you know, that's going to probably become less and less the case. And so, um, but it, to me, it was a catchy title that would encapsulate an understanding of existential angst in 2025, especially as it relates to AI?

Yeah, we're definitely at an inflection point with really an emergent consciousness. I think that can fundamentally change or alter the course of humanity and we'll definitely get there. But, but I'd love to back up and start at the beginning. Yeah. How did you grow up with money and how did that drive you to become successful?

Yeah, that's an interesting and good question. I didn't grow up with money. Surprise, surprise. I think that's probably a similar story for a lot of first-generation successful entrepreneurs. I'm the oldest of 6 kids, grew up in a large family, mostly in Spokane, Washington, moved around quite a bit at first, but then settled in Spokane and went to junior high and high school there. My dad was a middle manager engineer. I was the oldest of 6 kids. Money was definitely tight. I grew up in a very conservative religion. I mean, And I'm here in Provo, Utah. So you could surmise what religion that might be. But grew up in a very conservative religion where kind of all the answers are handed to you in this nice, neat little box. Very rigid. A little bit, maybe, keep the rules to receive love, which is hard, keep all these rules, and you'll receive kind of the love you need. So yeah, I remember going to going to McDonald's and ordering whatever they were then, a 59-cent hamburger. I don't remember exactly. That happened like twice a year, and that was a big deal at our house. And, um, there were no fries included, just the hamburger or cheeseburger, right? You know, I don't remember. So, um, yeah, very conservative background. I, I was a good basketball player and a quarterback actually growing up. I'm a team sports guy, and and, um, was on an all-star traveling team fairly young, probably starting 13. We couldn't afford— I couldn't afford to fly to Phoenix for the tournament or whatever the case may be. So I actually started a carpet cleaning business when I was 13 years old in order to buy some basketball shoes and travel to these tournaments. So that's a little bit of my background of money. I'd say one other thing, because of my religious background, I would say that there was a little bit of a feeling of kind of money being the root of all evil. So that's been an interesting thing for me to work through as a middle-aged guy because that's kind of how I grew up. So that's, that's the high-level background.

Yeah. So you grew up with the story that money is the root of all evil, which definitely has religious undertones.

Yeah.

And not, not enough to go around. Yeah. And so what, what story or imprint did that leave you with and how did you start to decide you know, from this carpet cleaning business onward to change your circumstances?

Yeah, it was interesting. The carpet cleaning business was a very serendipitous story, and I give credit to my parents. I was kind of sitting at my table, kind of like this kitchen table, our little home, doing homework. There's a knock on the door. My mom goes and gets it. I overhear this conversation about someone selling a carpet cleaner. My mom says, thanks but no thanks, closes the door. And I said, Mom, Buy that carpet cleaner, please, for me. Like, let's go grab that guy. I'll pay you back and I'll use, you know, I'll make money and, and I'll be able to do the basketball things I want to do. So, gosh, it was sure nice of them to do that. We bought the carpet cleaner. I lived right across from my elementary school. It's called Ponderosa Elementary. Go Wildcats. And, and so that was my first client or customer actually was the elementary school. And then I did my, you know, my younger siblings' kindergarten schools. I went to my dentist and doctor, et cetera, et cetera. So that was kind of the underpinning. Sorry, Mike, what was your, what was the question?

Yeah, so how do you start to use this? Oh yeah. Knowing, yeah, knowing money's not around, how do you decide to start changing?

Yeah, it's interesting. I talk about in the book about climbing my little mountain of success. That's a climb that we all know. It's largely driven by ego, in my experience. And I talk about getting up there. This is after I built several billion-dollar companies and done all—

no big deal—

all the things, blah, blah, blah. And standing at the top of the mountain, and I say in the book, there's nothing up there but a cold howling wind. Like there's just void. That's not necessarily bad. It's just not any different. And so what are you left to do when you get to the top and, oh, all my problems aren't solved. All my— I don't have all the answers. I haven't figured everything out. I'm still dysfunctional inside in some ways. I'm still hurting in some ways. This didn't fix everything. Oh, shit. Where do I go from here? And I talk about in the book, there's nowhere to go but down, back down the mountain. Picking up the pieces of a little bit of a tattered life. I didn't try to do any harm on my climb personally, but just the pace and the speed that I was working at, there were, you know, collateral damage all around just for me bulldozing ahead. And so you pick up those pieces, you go back down to the valley of the shadow of death. You don't have all the answers and you're left with, I think, one place to go. At least I was. And that was inside. Instead of looking outside for external validation, for success, for award-winning awards that don't really mean anything. I mean, grateful for those great events, cool people, but they don't really mean anything. The wealth that maybe has been accumulated or not, the things that have been acquired, they don't bring you what you're looking for. I believe that. I believe that what we're all looking for can only be found inside of each one of us. I know that can be trite, but I believe it's true wholeheartedly. And so after the governor's race, I'm kind of skipping around, but after losing out of the governor's race, I had nowhere to go but to look inside. And I've done that now, done some of the hard work that that requires. And we don't want to look inside. We avoid that because that's where the real stuff is.

Not comfortable.

Not comfortable. But so that's— yeah, I think that I climbed my little mountain of success on maybe motivations that weren't as pure, so to speak, as they could be. Like I said, a little too much ego probably involved. And I think this is natural, normal, common. You tell me.

I mean, yeah, yeah, this is— I mean, this is, this is the arc, right? Is that the, the first mountain tends to be about me. Yeah. And then you stand on that mountain and go, shit, it didn't work. Yeah. Now what?

Yeah.

But I want to, I want to dig in a little bit more to the climb. What were some of those, those sacrifices or dark moments to where you started to realize, maybe this isn't working as well as I thought?

Yeah, I could tell you two really interesting stories. This kind of long form, right? Yeah. I'll tell you two interesting stories. I share them actually both in the book. Let me just tell you one. I'm gonna feel it. I hope I don't get emotional. I remember I was very young in my career building this large private equity firm, probably launching a venture fund. I was serving as a bishop, a leader in my faith tradition. I grew up Mormon and extraordinarily busy. One of my business partners and I said, "It's spring break. We need a break. Let's take our families." We flew from here, to Phoenix, Arizona, rented a Sprinter van, and drove across the border to the beach in Mexico. And we're with all of our kids. He has 3 kids. I had 4. My daughter was 11 months old, the only daughter I have of 4. And we were playing in a pool there. It was a beautiful vacation in all the right ways. I asked my wife to hand me my daughter, and I can still see her in her pink with white polka dots, little bathing suit, her chubby, you know, 11-month-old legs. She has these crystal green eyes, this wispy blonde hair, her trademark birthmark, which is adorable. And I hold her and, you know, they're splashing and commotion going around in the pool with all the boys and having fun. But she looks at me and this is what I hear her say. She can't talk, but it's like, "Daddy, where have you been?" Like, what are you doing? Are you really here for me? Obviously, this is my voice kind of speaking to myself, let's say my higher self, but it's my daughter saying, you've missed, like, the— largely missed the first 11 months of my life. So I'm sitting there amidst all the commotion, they're splashing all around. Luckily, there's one, and I'm just weeping. In the edge of the pool with my daughter, and I say to her, you know, I'm not gonna miss any more of your life. Like, there are some things so much more important than what I'm doing. You're my only daughter. I love you. I'll be here for you forever. This daughter, by the way, is leaving for college in a couple weeks. So, um, that was a reckoning, and that was a step. That was the first one. I would say a couple years after that, one other story if I could share. Please. It's so stupid. Again, I kind of told you a little bit of my resume. I mean, again, running a multibillion-dollar private equity firm with two partners, launching a venture fund, investing $100 million in venture capital, serving. I'm a father of four. What in the hell was I thinking? I know what I was thinking. I decided to add MBA to my resume. Like, why? My two partners are Ivy League MBAs, by the way. Brilliant guys. But I decided I want to get an MBA. So I'm so busy, of course, the only time I can do this are nights and weekends. And again, my thought process, of course, Mike, at the time was, there's always something more you can do. When you're climbing that mountain, the more you do, the better, the more climbing, the better. There's always something more you can do. I added MBA on top of my crazy schedule. I'm sitting in a class. It's a leadership class. I think it was my first semester of MBA school, good teacher. And he said, I want you all to close close your eyes here. It was a thought experiment. And to think of the thing that is most highly motivating you now. And I kind of like this. I'm a big dreamer. So I was kind of like, okay, cool, I'm going to settle in here and see what I think about. But what happened scared me, like, kind of scared me straight, scared me to death. And this is what happened. First of all, there was nothing. I saw nothing. I couldn't I was lost. Like, I couldn't imagine anything that was really motivating to me right then and there. My classmates started typing and I was fully flat and empty. Then finally, two things, two visions came to mind that were motivating, that were highly motivating. One was as a— wait, when were you born?

1980.

Okay, 1977. So we're similar vintage. It was like a mashup of Yo! MTV Raps and a badass, like, Cribs episode. MTV Cribs episode, if you remember this at all.

Of course.

Okay. So it was like this party, scantily clad people around, substances of all kinds, you know, like big houses, fancy cars. That was a little troubling because I was a very devout Mormon. I had never, let alone like tasted alcohol or had, you know, drugs, I never even tasted coffee or tea. And so of course that was a little startling to me, but, um, it also was kind of a wake-up call that I wanted to be free, that I needed to be free. So anyways, I kind of pushed that to the side and said, where is that coming from? I knew that that was very unlikely for— based on my background and based who I am, I knew that that wasn't going to happen. And I knew in the end that would be harmless. However, the second vision— and I'm wrapping up— the second vision that I saw God took me to my first therapist ever. It scared me a lot more. I'm— this is the vision I had. I'm sitting at the desk, I quietly close my laptop, put it in my bag, and drive to the Salt Lake Airport 15 minutes down the road. I buy a one-way ticket to— if I would have known, Varanasi, India, which is where my book starts, that's where I would have gone. The point is, I— a one-way ticket to the furthest imaginable place that I could and just leaving it all behind. My soulmate, Sally, my four precious children, my business partners who I love and adore, the kind of financial empire and responsibilities I was building, and just disappearing. So I went to a therapist. What I realized was, and this is the crux, uh, crux in the book, I had become a human doing. In my climb to the mountain, I had become addicted to doing. Now, I think one of the benefits and blessings disguised in AI is that it, as it does more and more of what we're used to doing, we're left with our being. Mike, you and I are human beings. We've lost sight of that. I'm speaking generally in large part, and we are being called back to our being. I believe like you in this. I would bet on a renaissance in consciousness in the next decade here on the Earth. I think that AI will be a tool in that if we are wise. And that's what I was being called back to. I had lost touch with my being. So there are two long stories, but poignant stories along my path that— and I would say the governor's race is another one. We could talk more about that. But anyways.

Yeah, I'd love to dive in there. And we'll put a pin in the governor's race because I know that's also a turning point. But fundamentally, why all the doing? Where was that coming from? What was causing you to sacrifice time with your kids and achieve more and build more? Like, where was, where was that coming from?

It's a great question. Number one, I just think I'm, I think I'm a very proactive person, you know, and just very active. Again, I was a quarterback in high school, point guard. I'm not that tall, but excelled at those things, loved sports, still do, still wake surf and water ski and snow ski, all those things. So I think that's just my nature, number one. So that's fine. But, um, what exacerbated that— and I don't— where did you grow up?

I grew up in Texas, in West Texas.

Okay, then I think you'll have felt this. It was the collective air that I breathed my entire growing up. I was born in the western United States, highly capitalistic, highly freedom-focused in the West. I was in a very high-demand religion, Mormonism, and it was just in the absolute air from the age zero to what, you know, till even now. But, you know, that I just breathed in. So, and I just put it on steroids. Another thing, maybe even more so, so that's— so number one, driven naturally. Two, you exacerbate it, and just that, that's what I see. The third, I would say, would be I would be able to identify very clearly now, and I had an inkling of this maybe starting 20 years ago or so, but I would say like a father's wound that I had. All our families, no matter how dysfunctional, are beautiful in some ways, but they're imperfect. All faith traditions, most faith traditions, I should say, are beautiful, but also imperfect. And they wound us uniquely. They wound us in certain ways. And I had a— I was the oldest of 6, a father that was very hard on me, still is to this day. And I think I was trying to prove something, right? I didn't know this consciously, but subconsciously, I think I was trying to prove something. But now that I've done everything, by the way, quote unquote, almost everything, and he's still not happy or proud, quote, you know, so to speak, I I can let that go and I can realize that this isn't actually about me. This is more about him. So I think there certainly was some trauma or dysfunction that I was kind of trying to backfill and prove myself, which again is an inherently flawed way of seeing things. But I think a very common way of seeing things.

I mean, show me an entrepreneur and I'll show you someone who's trying to prove something to somebody, right? If not everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah. And the irony is it works.

Yeah.

It's the thing that drives us to be successful.

It works until it doesn't.

Until all of a sudden there's a moment, right? You've described two of them, holding your daughter and sitting in this MBA class. What caused you to want to run for governor and how did that unfold?

Yeah, I would say this is the next kind of interesting point. I'm speaking at a very high level of my story. Dude, I appreciate sharing my story. I share a lot of it in the book. I appreciate sharing with you, but I really only share it so that others can see themselves in it. This isn't about me. My book's not about me. My book's about a human story, a very human story that I hope relates to people and that they can see themselves in the story. What I felt starting in like 2017, I start the book at the River Ganges in Varanasi, India, the holiest city in India. My wife and I are there and we're sitting every night. There's this nightly festival at the river and we're sitting there and I'm witnessing a scene that sparks something so deep inside of me. So resonant. It is so resonant. It's very foreign to my background as a Westerner and as a, you know, a Mormon. Maybe I'll just lay it out for you real quick. To the left is one of the most famous crematoriums in the world. I was not used to seeing dead bodies on a pallet with just a white— one white sheet with them— march down to the river and set ablaze. I don't know, that's just not something you see in the United States, or I just don't see that.

But that's Happening a lot in Provo.

Not happening a lot in Provo. Not happening a lot in Spokane, Washington. Not having a lot anywhere in the U.S. that I'm aware of. And so we're sitting there and I'm witnessing these bodies being burned. They were just, you know, hours, days before, alive with a human soul. They're being burned right in front of my eyes, and in a matter of hours, only 2 hours, it's only ash. That ash is being swept into the river, going downstream to right in front of me. There are pilgrims, both local and people who've traveled in, I'm sure, literally baptizing themselves, being reborn through the ashes of death, baptizing themselves in this same river, shouts of joy and ecstasy, like, filling the air. And then to the right, another, you know, 50 yards down the river, approximately, there's you know, like 40 people, 50, a lot of people doing the laundry, literally just doing laundry. So you have the ashes of death flowing through rebirth and then life, the laundry. And something was so resonant in that that I could not get that image out of my mind. And it was calling— I was being called to something deeper. My soul was like luring me into this river of consciousness, let's say. And I was witnessing what I believe existence is. And this happens both on a micro level and on a macro level all the time, but it's a series of life, death, and rebirth. Constant. Our birth— or sorry, our breath mimics that. The day, every day mimics that. The longer cycles of the seasons mimic that. I believe that our souls follow this pattern. I believe this is the life of— I'm saying God or the universe or whatever, you know, whatever you might think. It's a, it's a never-ending cycle of life, death, and rebirth that happens in the present moment. Anyway, sorry, I feel like I'm preaching a little bit here.

So I'm here for it, brother. I'd like you to preach on.

Okay, so, so So I think this is the life of the universe. And I was witnessing it as a Western Mormon, highly addicted, let's say, to doing, high achiever. And I was just in awe for hours. We sat there for 3 or 4 hours watching this, almost speechless, like in this reverence bubble. And so I started being— that was the beginning of feeling my soul being lured into deeper waters. And I think it was on that trip, it was 2017, that I first thought like, I need— I want to do something more. I want to do something outside of building businesses. And I think even on that trip, my wife Sally and I kind of came up with a list of 5 things, one of which was, you know, running for political office, something again I had never really thought of before. And anyways, that got ignited over the next couple of years, and I eventually decided to run. The most critical months of the campaign were March, April, May, and June of 2020. I mean, right when the pandemic hit the US. And when I did my pros and cons list of running for governor, I didn't really do one like that. But when I— global pandemic was not on my—

A little hard to predict.

A little hard to predict. Very unpredictable. I mean, change is the only constant. Constant. We do not know what's coming. It shocked me. I remember laying on my little couch in my home office on, I think it was like March 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, somewhere in there, and around midnight and just weeping because I realized I was running against two very well-known politicians. Jon Huntsman Jr., who was the former governor of Utah and ran for president, and then the current lieutenant governor at that time, Spencer Cox, who's now our governor. One of those two guys were going to win. Now, maybe that was always going to be the case. But there was an outsider like myself who had a chance until the pandemic, and then it was over. Any disruption like that causes a flight to safety, and there was no way I was winning. So I realized I was going to lose. I finish out the governor race as strong as I can, lose. Into the summer of 2020, and only upon reflection— this is the wrap-up of a long story— only upon reflection do I realize my subconscious was pulling me off the stage. I had created a little stage for myself, being a CEO, running all these companies, being an early investor in all these companies. I was on like 20+ boards, etc., etc. Running for governor allowed me to clear my slate. And so, when I lost, I had time and space for the first time in my adult life, which is not uncommon for my faith tradition. Mormons are on an accelerated path. Like, for instance, I'm 48. I'm a grandpa already. My 24-year-old son has a 1-year-old son. Very accelerated, fast pace. And so I had never had time and space to reflect, but I did now. And again, I realized that my subconscious was clearing space for me to what I would say is come back to myself, look inside, have this awakening experience, as you might, you know, understand and appreciate a little bit, and write this book, the last book written by a human. I mean, this is the first outward physical manifestation of kind of where I've been for the last 5 years. So I'll stop there, dude.

I am talking a lot here, but yeah, well, it's the point of the podcast. So I'm— I'm loving the arc, and thank you for sharing so vulnerably about some of these moments that started to shape you. But I'm wondering, you know, you've made a tremendous amount of money in your career. I expect that if you're running billion-dollar companies that there's some financial reward there. Did the money make you happy? Did it work?

Yeah. Yeah, and just to clarify, well, anyway, it doesn't matter. You know, I've been the first investor in several billion-dollar companies. Our private equity firm has owned billions of dollars of assets. I don't know exactly the value of the company. I just wanna be clear. But yeah, I've built significant companies with scale.

You're doing all right.

I've done okay. Yeah. No, the money doesn't make you happy. Certainly, you know, I've traveled to 60 countries around the world. There's a level of poverty that's too prevalent on the earth where you are very unhappy because you're literally fighting tooth and nail every day to make ends meet. That's got to be the hardest place to be at. Um, I might say that the But anyways, maybe the second hardest place— this is just a thought, it might be controversial, I might get crushed, that's fine— but it's to have way too much because then where do you go and what do you do? And when that doesn't answer all your questions, again, you've got to look inside. There's this sweet middle spot, which obviously America has thrived at, and it's the reason that America has been the powerhouse it has been for the last last, you know, several, you know, hundreds of years. It's this powerful middle class that has— that isn't worried about the day-to-day, but it is able to focus on being very productive in a way that builds confidence, in a way that builds self-esteem, in a way that builds families. I think families are the fundamental unit of society. And so let me just say that things will never make you happy. You— there's nothing that you can buy that will make you happy. Some of the experiences I've had have absolutely made me happy. And my privilege to be able to do some of these things, to travel, like I've said, and other things, is an unbelievable blessing and has taught me so much and has been a blessing to my family. But again, the, the story of the little climb to the mountain. And I don't begrudge anyone taking their little climb. Everyone needs to figure things out on their own. But let me just tell you, as someone who's been there, that again, at the top of that mountain is a cold howling wind. It will not solve all your problems. And oftentimes, you and I have both seen this with peers, friends, people in our network, that, that amount of money can be can start a bonfire that is very hard to contain and can often lead to a lot of additional destruction and/or deconstruction. So, there's my honest best efforts to say it. My heart goes out. And obviously, I try to— our family tries to do all that we can for those that are in need. There are way too many people in need. I think this is something that AI can hopefully help us solve. I think there can be less poverty in the world. I think it can help us recognize patterns in this. I think it can up-level education for those that don't have opportunities, especially in third-world countries, etc., to up-level education to help students rise that have opportunities to provide in better ways for themselves and their families. So there's some thoughts.

Yeah, I love it. I like your point about the balance, right? I've been rich and poor. It's better to be rich. Yeah, fundamentally, right? Because, because not having enough money doesn't— I mean, money doesn't buy happiness, but not having money buys a lot of unhappiness.

Amen. Yeah, I've been rich and poor as well, and I totally agree with you.

But if money didn't make you happy, what does wealth mean to you now?

Yeah, I would say I would say two things. Number one, the ability to be present in every moment. So the doing will never go away. I mean, you and I are podcasting, we drove down here today to do this, we've got meetings after this, I'm sure. Um, you know, that I— we're, we're fathers, we're husbands. Like, the doing will never— as long as we're embodied bodied beings on this earth. Doing is inherent in this. However, what is not is the presence that we can bring to that doing in every present moment. So to me, wealth is being able to be as present as absolutely possible in anything that I'm doing, every present moment. Number one. Number two, the second idea that comes to me is This takes faith. This takes courage. If you do this, you are buck— like, buckle up. The heroic journey is coming for you hard. But living in total non-resistance, I would say, is the second key of wealth. And then it might sound— or, you know, thing that I think of in wealth— and that might sound very strange, but that wealth comes from an inner knowledge or inner peace. The only way you can do that, the only way you can live in complete non-resistance, is to have a reservoir of inner strength and peace that is beyond anything external. Does that make sense? So that's the wealth that I'm tapping into, like, every day. That's the wealth I'm tapping into as I release this book. The, the book comes out August 19th, which is in 2 weeks from when we're recording. It's a little scary, man. I'm saying some things that aren't completely orthodox in my community. I tell the truth in a very vulnerable way. This is not a— I don't paint myself in the best picture in this book. Like, I kind of share all my struggles and vulnerabilities and mistakes. It's scary as hell, but it— but I'm able to do it because of this, um, uh, because I'm living in non-resistance. I'm following the flow. I feel like this is what I should do, even when my business partners, my friends don't understand why I'm doing it. I'm able to do it and stand on my own two feet because of this inner, uh, awareness and/or peace that I have. So to me, And that's wealth. That might be a little esoteric and woo-woo, I don't know, but that's real wealth to me. Those are the two things that come to mind.

Yeah, we share a very similar philosophy. Shameless self-promotion on my end, the title of my upcoming book is Be Rich Now, and it's the fundamental premise is that we can only experience wealth in the present.

Amen. That's cool. So I look forward to reading that.

Yeah, we definitely align there. So how do you start to cultivate that true wealth, that inner wealth? And I'd love to double-click on non-resistance because we hear a lot about non-attachment from Eastern wisdom traditions. And I think in the West, we tend to get it wrong. We tend to think non-attachment means floating above it all. I never get mad. I cultivated the inner wealth and I never get mad anymore, right? That we imagine the enlightened. Enlightened beings floating, you know, sitting in the tree and, and meditating all day. I have a sense that's not what you mean by non-resistant.

Yeah, I'll say a couple things to that. Number one, um, my experience— I can only speak from my experience and this experience, this incarnation that I even remember— but from my, again, 48 years and from my kind of waking up process, the last really started probably 15 years ago, but the last 5 years it's been in earnest and the main work. I actually found find that the opposite almost is true. I feel more. I don't feel less. I'm not flying above everything. I'm actually in the shit even more than I ever was. What's changed is my ability to handle that, to feel that, and to let it go, which I think is the key. It's not about flying above it, you know, like sitting in the— you know, sitting in meditation and prayer 24 hours a day. I mean, some people are called to that, and I think it's wonderful, and I think they're doing a great service on the earth that we don't even understand. But that's not my life. I've got 4 kids, I've got a wife, I, I, several businesses that are still happening. My life is not that. And so what I try to do is I try to be a witness to what's occurring in my body— the pain that I'm feeling, the sadness, the fear. Which I feel all of those things actually even more acutely. It's a sad and scary thing that, that's like the warning to everyone out there. I feel that more acutely than ever. I'm better at metabolizing it or transmuting it. I feel it, I feel it deeply, and then I let it go. What's interesting is if so much of our pain is brought by either mistakes of the past that we ruminate on. So we're really living in the past and we're beating ourselves up. I was a little late today. Um, you know, whatever it was, you know, like, I don't know.

I—

what— we beat ourselves up for mistakes in the past, but the past is the past. There is nothing that you or I can do to change that, that we're aware of. Like, so the past is the past, and/or we live in the future an unknown future that is constantly changing, that by the way is fictitious. There is no future. The future is only in our mind. We only ever get to the future, and I believe this is true like forever and ever and ever and ever. We only get to the future via the present moment. You're only in the future as the present moment occurs. So my point is, when we are present, like right now, we're two brothers hanging out around a table with some cold water. The air is nice in here, it's cool enough, the sun's shining out, like everything's fine. It's when we get stuck in our minds and we drive anxiety about the future, or we're ruminating at the past, that I think we lose a lot of our peace. So my best advice is to meditate. I mean, like, to start a meditation practice, like, today. I don't care if that's 5 minutes or 10 minutes. I started becoming a religious meditator after the governor run. I started with 10 minutes a day with just one of the apps. And I did that for 6 to 12 months and then graduated into my own practice, found a teacher that I'm very close with now. But follow your own path in meditation. To me, that is the biggest, um, just single tool that we can do that. Another thing I, I talk about 3 universal teachers in the book, one of which is our bodies. AI is not embodied. Our bodies contain wisdom that we do not even tap into or scratch the surface of. So get into your body via yoga, again, meditation. Flow activities, working out, whatever you need to do. The second teacher that I talk about is family or relationship. That's a very interesting topic, of course, in the age of AI. Like, how do we keep the beautiful, messy, intimate relationships that are so critical to our transformation? How do we keep those intact? And then the third is, and this might be the last piece of advice, like, get into nature, like Mother Earth or the Earth. Um, has a regulated nervous system. When you connect to it, to her, your body can slow down too. Your body can feel that. That's why so many of our quote-unquote spiritual experiences or flow experiences, or some of our best memories, are in nature with people that we love. So those are like tactical things that I think we need to return to and/or spend more time time on, um, in order to connect to ourselves and stay regulated and in the present moment.

I'd love to dive in on meditation a bit because, you know, I started, uh, hearing about meditation probably in 2013-14 on the Tim Ferriss podcast. Seemed like it— seemed like every high performer meditated. And, and I've had a meditation practice for for over a decade, but I found that I was meditating from a very academic place, but— and I would call that more mindfulness, right? And, and so there— and, and by the way, plenty to be gained from that, right? Returning to the present, some of those, you know, calm headspace is how a lot of people get started. Game changer for me when I found a teacher and actually started walking the true spiritual path. I, I'd be interested to hear what your experience, uh, has been.

Yeah, very similar. I think, you know, I am not a meditation expert, but to me, actually, the key to meditation— I think this is number one— is non-judgment. In other words, however the hell you do it, if you don't judge it, just do it. Like, that could— the point is, it could be just mindfulness practice. It could be whatever, however you're— it could It could be in silence, it could be to a teacher on an app, it could be to music. I mean, however you're doing it, just do it. And then, by the way, be intuitive, which your intuition should go up if you will do this for a week or a month, etc. If you'll do it for a little bit of time, I think you'll notice your intuition sparking. I think you'll notice your sensitivity to your intuition increasing, and and just follow the flow of that is what I would say. Because I think, I think the two biggest impediments to meditation is number one, just doing, like carving out the time and doing it, which is still hard for I'm sure both of us. But just, you've got to hold that time sacred. So that's number one. But then the second thing is judgment. So okay, then you see, okay, you carve out the time, you're like, okay, I've done it, I'm here, I'm on my mat, I'm whatever I'm doing. And then you start judging immediately, like, I'm getting nothing, I'm doing nothing, I don't feel anything, I keep thinking about lunch, or, you know, like, I don't know, whatever, whatever things you think about. Stop judging, because I think the key to meditation is non-judgment and just being in the moment. You let those thoughts pass through. You don't have to judge them. Just let them go through. It's amazing how short actually our thoughts and feelings and emotions are if we will actually just feel them. They don't last that long most of the time. Obviously, grieving a serious situation can be different, but like, they don't last that long if you just will acknowledge it, feel it again, kind of as an observer, and let it pass through you. Oh, it's okay. Okay. I was sad about that and it's gone. On. Oh, I was hungry and I'll take care of that later, you know, like, anyways. Um, so I think non-judgment is critical. I don't know if that was a good answer to your question, but those are, those are the— that's what I've learned. And I've only been meditating seriously for like 5 years, so.

Uh, I love it. And, um, I wonder if you could just kind of take us to maybe you dive in a little bit more of the book, but, but what do you think is unfolding now here for us at this inflection point? Because you do have some unorthodox or maybe outside of the mainstream opinions that, that I think are really interesting because the reality is we have no idea what's coming. Yeah, can't possibly predict what is coming. And at least for me, I can see a path to utopia and a path to dystopia.

Yeah.

And it looks like a coin flip.

I think the outcome is up to us. And this book is really meant to be a conversation starter about why— what is the divine purpose in AI? Like, not making money, not optimizing and making everything efficient and effective. There will be a lot of that which will be beautiful and good, both for business and personally. But the messiness, the inherent messiness of being alive is so integrated with the beauty of being alive. We can't strip out that messiness completely, or we're just like drones in the system. We're just like robots in the system. So this book, you know, I've done 40 or 50 podcasts in the last month about it. One of the most common from the people. I did not expect this book to be what it is. Like, this was completely unexpected. And I'm grateful for that because I want it to be a conversation starter that hopefully leads to a movement. I talk— the last part of the book is about evolution. And I talk about evolving our systems like reforming religion, education, conscious capitalism. And I talk about politics. And I talk about a human, what I call in the book, a human political movement. I think that a movement will begin here, whether it's this one or another. I'm just trying to be one voice. I think there will be a lot of voices. I hope there's a lot of voices rallying around mine as well, saying these things. There are some, and I, I think that's what— so I think a movement is afoot. Um, I think that the ego was an adaptive trait for humans that has served us very well in so many ways. Too often it gets a really bad rap. It's good in a lot of ways, but it's also very harmful and has been harmful in a lot of ways. I think the, I think the collective ego is dying out. I think the ego is being burned out of us. I'm speaking collectively and generally. I think that we are transforming and evolving, and I think that AI is going to help us get there. That isn't because of utopia, and it's because— and I hate— it's because of pain. I think that we're in for a lot of pain here in the next decade, and I think that pain will burn out a lot of the ego that still resides in the collective body. And then we'll be able to build, or you could say rebuild, or have a rebirth, whatever you want to say, from a healthier point of view from a healthier foundation. So again, my bet, my goal in writing this book, and my hope, I guess I should say, is that I'm, I'm betting on a massive renaissance in consciousness here in the next decade and two in humanity. And I guess my soul wants to be a voice in that, and what is pulling me towards that in form or fashion. And I'll follow the flow to see where that goes. I'm not sure where it will go. But, you know, that's— and I don't think I'm like necessarily— I'm not special in any way. And I'm not unique. I think that a lot of people are feeling this tug and pull. Now they don't know exactly what it is. Why do I feel this angst inside? Why am I uncomfortable? Why do I feel so drawn to AI, but I'm so afraid of of it. I think there's a reason, and I think if we will dive into that reason with heart and love, I think that the outcomes for humanity can be unbelievable. And this— that's the blueprint, like, that's a vision, I should say, that I paint in the book. And if that's something you're interested in, and/or not, I hope you'll check out the book and then tell me your thoughts, because like I said, it's meant to be a conversation starter So I want to hear what people think about this book. Let's start the conversation now and let's, let's work on improving humanity together.

Yeah. And I think there's some interesting things to unpack here. And, and I love this idea of a new Renaissance because I believe we're about to have to face the question is where do humans derive meaning if they no longer have to work?

This is the pain, or part of the pain, that I'm talking about. The shift from doing to— or overdoing to cover up. Doing for me was a facade. Like, I didn't necessarily know that when I was in the heat of it. This might resonate with you. I was avoiding the real work, inner work, that I needed to look at and do. I see this in my family. I see this in my community. These people that are so busy doing, they're avoiding what is really the richness there to be had. So this will be a big part of the pain when, when AI can do so much of what we're used to do better than us. When there is, I think that there will be significant job loss. We get to determine what we do with that time, and we get to determine what we become. Like you said, I don't think the end is necessarily, like, written. I think we're writing it right now. Like, I think we're writing— I think this is always the case— we're writing our future, we're writing our destiny together right now. And, um, yeah, I agree with Sorry if I cut you off there.

No, you nailed it. Uh, I, I want to understand, you know, really the, the nuance that, that we're diving into here, because I, I think it's, it's maybe the most important conversation that we can have at this point. Um, you know, I, look, I, humans love to, to think they're special, and, and maybe we're just falling into the age-old trap of specialness, But I think this really is an inflection point like we've never seen before in human civilization. And to not give that the weight or the consideration that it deserves, I think would be remiss.

Amen. And what if the moment, I think this is the message for the moment. And what if the message is to to let go of our individual specialness, to let go of our— the specialness we feel in our own tribes, and to come back together in what I believe is the more foundational substrate, actually, of this existence, which is this divine unity amongst all of us. See, no matter our differences, no matter our tribes— conservative, liberal, you know, white, Black, rich, poor, whatever, male, female, you know, like whatever tribes we may hold on to and feel proud about— um, underline that is all illusory in some form or fashion. And underneath all of that is a higher truth about our unity and oneness. And that's what I think we're being called towards. That's what I think we will lean further into. I think it's a necessary evolutionary step. I think you could say that God or the universe is waking up to itself. I think it wants that to happen. I think it is happening. And again, I think that AI is one and probably the most powerful tool of all, but of that's kind of here on the Earth right now, like helping us get there if we allow it to. It could be obviously massively destructive if we feed it from a place of fear, division, and greed. We're just going to get more of that back. AI is a cosmic mirror to humanity. It is showing us and going to show us who we are, what we've become. We then get to look at that reflection and say, do we like what we see? Are we going to double and triple down on what's gotten us here, or are we going to try to become more whole, more healed, more complete, more unified? And what do we need to change if we want to go that direction, which is what I'm, uh, you know, arguing for or encouraging what I feel in my heart and soul, what do we need to change in order to get there? And again, change is always hard, and so massive disruption will continue to come, but I think it's beckoning us to, to change in positive ways.

Well, you've, you've obviously done a tremendous amount of, of inner work and Uh, I really appreciate you sharing your arc of, of high achievement to waking up. What would you go back and tell yourself 10 years ago, 15 years ago, maybe, maybe to that guy who's holding his daughter saying, I'm not gonna miss the first or the next 11 years like I did the last 11. What do you, what do you tell to that person?

Yeah, I think two, two things I would say. The number one thing it's gonna be okay. And then that's what I also want to say here. I feel like maybe our conversation's been a little heavy, a little heady, a little woo-woo. I don't know, maybe you feel that way if you're listening, maybe not. But it's all going to be okay. Like, and I'm saying that with an eternal perspective. I don't know if this round is going to be okay. Like, if we're going to make it through this AI rabbit hole together, like, right now, I hope we are. I believe we can. I believe it's up to us. But in the long scope, I'm saying the eternal perspective again of God, it's going to be okay. So, gosh, I'm preaching a lot, but I would tell myself, Jeff, Jeff, it's gonna be okay. You're like, relax, it's gonna be okay long term. And that's a message that I would say to like all your listeners, and especially those that have fear around AI, like, it's gonna be okay. The second thing that I would tell myself 10 or 15 years ago, for sure, I probably wouldn't have I probably wouldn't have done it. I mean, I hope I would have, but I just want to be honest and realistic. Slow down. Slow down. Like, it's going to be okay. Breathe. Slow down. You know, what's the quote? Like, fast is slow and slow is smooth.

Smooth is fast.

Smooth is fast.

Sorry. Slow. Yeah.

Whatever the quote is.

Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. Yeah.

Okay. Slow is smooth.

My Navy SEAL buddy. So shout out.

Yeah, yeah, shout out. I think that's true. It's not a quote I've ever actually said before, but I have heard it. Slow down. Like, the way to get there isn't to speed everything up. The way to get there is to slow down. Like I said, to go inside. So those are the two things, two simple messages. You know, Mike, it is so interesting. This is something I've said quite a bit in the last month, and I believe it. I'm an adjunct, or I have been an adjunct professor at BYU. I've had thousands of entrepreneurs leadership students since the Governor run come through. And something I've said to them often, every semester I say a couple of times, the most powerful ideas are often the most simple. So you'll notice the advice I gave myself, like, everything's going to be okay and slow down, like, what the hell? You know, like, okay. The most powerful ideas are the most simple. But because of that, they're often the most neglected as well, because we think they're too simple. "Oh yeah, go inside, blah blah blah. Like, what does that mean?" You know, like, "Slow down." Oh, you know, the most powerful ideas— believe me, like, I've explored a lot of ideas— the most powerful ideas are the most simple. But because we think they're simple, we neglect them. Them. They're the most neglected. And by the way, everything that we spoke about today, it may sound simple, it may sound nice, woo-woo. And by the way, it's easy to talk about, you and I in here in these awesome conditions like I laid out a while ago. You and I are going to hit the road after this. We have a bevy of things on our plate today. That's where the rubber meets the road. Like, can we bring what we know inside of us to the muck, to the messiness of existence and what's going to happen. You know, that's the real challenge. That's the hard part. So let me just say, these are not simple in practice. These are not simple ideas in practice. That's why we think they're too simple. So we neglect them and we're hesitant to actually implement them. So we neglect them. That's too easy. That's too simple. That's— it can't be that simple. But, um, I think it is.

I love it, Jeff. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Uh, it's been a, it's been a pleasure diving in with you. Where can people get the book? Where can they find you? Where can they learn more?

Yeah, Mike, it's been awesome. First of all, to be with you. Like, whenever we're with another human being, we're like on sacred ground, and it's been really good to be with you. I'd love for people to support the book in as much as they feel it or want to, or it feels aligned for them. It's for sale everywhere, you know, Amazon, Walmart, Target, Barnes Noble, wherever your favorite bookstore is. It launches August 19th. You can get it wherever you want. And the best way to follow me is probably on my website, just jeffburningham.com. But I try to— I'm not— I don't love social media, but I'm trying to reach people there, kind of like I did in the governor race. I never like loved it, but that's where people live a lot of the time. So I'm, I'm @JeffBurningham basically on every platform. I just launched a TikTok like a week or two ago. Someone help me do it.

Doing some dances.

Yeah, I love dancing actually, so I should do some dances and a Substack I think a week ago or maybe even just this week I've launched. So pretty, you know, of course LinkedIn, Instagram, everywhere, just @JeffBurningham. You could follow along in as much as you would like to.

Well, Well, my listeners know I'm not a compulsive shiller of books. I think a lot are short stories that we turn into 250-page novels. I can say having an advance copy of this book, it is well worth the read. It's thoughtful, it's raw, it's vulnerable, and I just really appreciate you putting that out into the world.

Thank you, Mac. It hasn't been easy. I have viewed it as like my little offering to the divine, like a little piece of art. It's a piece of art to me because I put my whole heart and soul into it. It's like my offering to the divine. And when I say the divine, I say humanity, to the world. So I did the best I could. It's not perfect, but I'm so glad that it resonated with you. And the early feedback has been really encouraging, and I need that to keep going because this isn't— hasn't been easy. Key for me to do. So thank you.

Turns out external validation, after all that, still, still matters.

Are we just come full circle to like, we've made no progress here? Oh, isn't this the pattern? This is like the pattern of existence. We kind of follow the same patterns until we can hopefully break out. And that's like the eternal story. So fun.

And with that, a Mike Trog moment. Thank you, Jeff. Appreciate you.

Thanks, Mike.