How AI Is Rewriting the Rules of Leadership (Jack Swift)

I remember a time being in the grocery store with my mom. It was a Piggly Wiggly in Hope, Arkansas, and I wanted apple juice. And my mom's like, "No, we can't afford apple juice." Take me back to that moment. I am clear that I don't want to ever be in a situation where I can't get access to food and preferably food that I want. Jack Swift is a former Army Ranger, West Point graduate, and accomplished entrepreneur. He co-founded Pacific Current Group, led Typhon, an AI-driven fintech company valued at $842 million, and served as president of Crestone Capital, a $2.7 billion multifamily office. So I ended up being the youngest managing director in Janus's history and running the institutional sales team. I'm riding pretty high at that point because I'm making a lot of money. You know, a lot of the work that I'm doing with my team is responsible for the earnings call every quarter. I'm learning what it's like to be a corporate executive, and I'm in a publicly traded company.

How did that drive you to become successful?

But what is success, right? What is success? You have money and you're, you know, your health is crap. Are you successful? I don't think so. So, so the awakening for me came when I really started to learn to—

AI could be considered an emergent consciousness. Massive opportunity, but also deeply destabilizing. How do you think about that?

What's going to unfold is dramatically, amazingly impactful for their individual lives. And then at scale, what it looks like is we hear a lot of this. We hear like forecast by, you know, 2030, there'll be 400 million less jobs because of AI, maybe. But will there be 600 million new jobs created? Maybe. It's going to require a different way.

Welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations with founders about money, meaning, and what makes a truly rich life. Today I am joined by Jack Swift, former Army Ranger, co-founder of Pacific Current Group, which eventually IPO'd, most recently CEO of Tiffin, an AI-driven fintech company, and founder of Sangha, a conscious leadership community. I can't wait to dive in. I know we share a lot of similarities, and welcome to the show, Jack.

It's good to be here. And I'm a co-founder of Sanga. There's 5 of us, which I'm very— I'm always happy to be on the journey with others because I feel like this life is not to me, is not meant to be done alone. So very happy to be here, Mike. Thank you.

Well, let's start from the beginning. How did you grow up with money and how did that drive you to become successful? Sure.

Yeah, I grew up in Georgia and Arkansas. And the, the most influential parts of that childhood really were in Arkansas, in a small town called Hope, Arkansas. You'll probably remember that the Clintons are from Hope, Arkansas. So there's a whole rabbit hole that we can go down on that one. Probably not appropriate for this discussion, but it was an interesting place to spend time. So Hope is right where Texarkana— it's right next to Texarkana, where Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana come together. And it's about a 10,000-person community. So to paint the picture at that time, you know, this is in the late '70s. There was, we had no movie theater. We didn't have any fast food restaurants. We didn't have even a Walmart. So it was a very, very poor community. And so for me, my mom was an elementary school teacher and my dad was a city manager. So we had everything we needed, right? And I think there was a lot of stability and security in that household in a number of ways, but I was surrounded by poverty. And so when, you know, I was at Yerger Middle School in, I don't know what would be probably 6th grade, you know, there were probably half my class didn't have food to eat. They literally didn't have food. And so it was very clear to me that there were— I actually felt really well off in that situation because I had food to eat, but there were a lot of others that, that weren't doing as well. So I think what was, um, becoming very clear is I didn't want to be one of those people that didn't have food to eat. And if I could, I wanted to be in a place to be able to you need to serve them in the future.

And when do you remember first becoming aware of this difference or recognizing that others didn't have as much as you did?

Yeah, I think it was in elementary school in the public school system in Hope, Arkansas, because, you know, the community was really of farmers and there wasn't much industry there. Klipsch Speakers was based there. So if you know Klipsch Speakers, they're amazing speakers. Some people will work for that company, but I think in elementary school it was very clear that, you know, there were people that they didn't, they wore the same clothes to school every day because they're the only clothes they had. And so this is a, you know, this is a very poor community. They were not washing these clothes. They didn't have a way to wash these clothes. They didn't have access to food. I mean, this is as poor as many of the communities I've visited in Sub-Saharan Africa or India. And this is in the US.

And what imprint does that leave on you as a child, seeing that kind of poverty?

Yeah, I think for me, um, first more than anything, compassion. Um, you know, compassion and empathy for those around me, uh, is the, the deepest imprint. And a strong desire to, to serve others that maybe don't have things, uh, they just don't, they don't, they're not the same situation that I'm in. So I think those are the, the foundational components. But in order to be in a position to, to be able to do those things, you have to have money, right? Or it's a lot easier if you have money, right? And Mother Teresa didn't necessarily have money. She did a great job of what I've just described. But, um, so I think that, that for me was, was clear. As, as things progressed in this story, my dad was fired from that city manager job. And at that point in time, things shifted for me. And I remember a time being in the grocery store with my mom, was a Piggly Wiggly in Hope, Arkansas. And I wanted apple juice, you know, I was like, you know, running through the aisle, grabbed some apple juice, came back and I was like, I put it on the conveyor belt to go through. My mom's like, no, we can't afford apple juice. And I was like, okay. This is a, this is a, this is a point at which I am clear that I don't want to ever be in a situation where I can't get access to food and preferably food that I want. So that's, I guess, a secondary imprint is the desire to, to be able to have the money necessary, you know, protect and provide for my family. And I think I perceived that. Moment probably differently as a child than my parents would describe it. Because from their perspective, they, they probably had enough to provide for me, but I didn't sense it that way. And so it didn't really matter. That was the, the belief system I carried forward.

And so how does that drive you to become successful later on? You went to West Point, which I won't hold against you. But how does your journey start to unfold?

Yes, we moved from Arkansas to Georgia and to a town called Marietta, outside of the Marietta Square, northwest of Atlanta. And, you know, I was now immersed in a situation where I could see lots of different levels of wealth. And so it was clear to me that, like, there was a lot more to be had than what I'd been exposed to in Arkansas. And so At that point, I decided, you know, I'm really going to be— I was determined to be able to create more based on what I'd been given in the world. And I saw paths opening up to West Point and to other, you know, other universities and had not seen before. And so I think the determination was to make sort of make a better life for myself. The, the way that was emergent for me at that point in time was through really leadership, which led me to West Point. 'cause I was student body president and athletic endeavors. I was a really good distance runner. So there were paths opening to sort of begin to challenge myself in ways that were different for me and to step into some growth edges that I hadn't really experimented with before. And so for me, given a series of different opportunities on, you know, from Marietta into university, I chose the hardest one that I could, which was West Point. And West Point at the time was building an amazing distance program, the best they'd ever had actually. We sent a person to the Olympics twice, and most everybody I ran with went to the Olympic trials except for me. So there's a whole nother growth edge there. But I think that, you know, I was in this stage of emergence driven by a fuel of recognizing that, you know, there is a place where people don't have anything. And I had the opportunity, a lot of opportunity. So I was determined to take advantage of it.

And would you say your growth edge was fueled more by hard work, or did you recognize that you were talented early on?

Hmm. I'm not sure that I, I felt talented at that point other than with running. I didn't like school. I still don't like school. I didn't really want to continue to go to school. I didn't see the point of school. So that part was not something that I was really focused on. But, but running, I felt like, okay, I can— I'm pretty talented here. And in distance running, especially if you're talented and you do hard work, you see results. And so that, that was taking shape for me. I was like 17 where if you apply hard work, to a certain amount of talent, then you see results. And so that— and that's partially why school was always kind of a drag because I was like, why am I spending so much time learning when if I can just go do the thing and apply whatever skills I have with enough hard work, I can see results.

Yeah, sounds like the entrepreneurial bend starts early for you, recognizing that, that busywork is not the answer.

Yeah. Yeah. And I, it, so to put it in a very, a very fine point on it, like I, I was enjoying running and I wanted to go to running camp and my parents said, we're not gonna pay for running camp for 2 weeks in North Carolina mountains in the Pisgah National Forest, which is awesomely beautiful. But I wanted to do that. So I, a buddy of mine, Josh Glass, and I went to Costco and we bought, you know, boxes and boxes and boxes of candy bars. And we, I, I sold enough candy bars at running camp to pay for my 2 weeks at running camp. So that was like, that was a beginning of like a phase of like, okay, if I want something, I can go get, I can figure out a way to make it happen.

You go to West Point from there. How was that experience for you?

West Point's hard. I mean, you know, anybody who says differently, I don't really understand what's quite going on with their head. Um, so West Point was a shock to my system, um, because I had experience, I had a lot of freedom growing up and I had, I went from freedom to no freedom to 4 responses. Yes, sir. No, sir. No excuse, sir. And sir, I did not understand for a year. Um, and at the same time I immediately started running, uh, I was immediately running varsity. So I was on it. I was on a team with some of the, actually, uh, some of the best athletes in the country at that time. Um, the fastest 2-miler in the country was on that team from the year before me. The fastest miler, uh, from in the country was on that team, you know, so we had a very, you know, very strong team. So it was like, um, I was faced with a very abrupt shift in culture. Let's call it landscape. Feeling, uh, cut off from my, uh, my network, my community, my family, my friends. And pretty isolated, and I wasn't sure I was going to make it. So I was in a course that's lovingly called at West Point, Rock Math. And Rock Math is for talent, generally talented athletes that are not that good at math. And so the deal with Rock Math is if you don't pass it, they just send you home. So I can remember, you know, thinking, okay, I'm doing pretty well as a runner, and if I just can pass these classes, then that I might be able to get through this experience that I've put my, you know, essentially immersed myself in. And, um, I wasn't sure I'd— I was going to pass that class. So, uh, Eric Riem and I— and Eric's a pretty well-known author and speaker at this point in time, you should check out his work, um— but, um, we, we literally held hands and walked down the hall because in those days they posted the grades on the, on the wall next to the, the classroom. And we thought, well, this is it, you know, we're going to find out in this moment whether or not we're going to continue at the academy or if it was all just a really fun experiment. And I don't remember what Eric got. I think I got a C+ or something, C, whatever the case was, I passed. And so now I was in a place emotionally where I was thrilled to have passed the class because I hadn't really failed at anything in my life at that point in time. And I didn't want to fail in that West Point experience. And terrified because I was going to stay at this place for another 3 years.

Having taken the hard way through a service academy myself, I can certainly relate to how hard that experience is. You go on to graduate. Tell me about your military service. Was that better or worse? How did you find that compared to West Point?

So I think similarly, you know, this, this, this opportunity to explore growth that just comes up again. 'Cause in this case, I could branch to a number of different things. I wanted to be an aviator like yourself. Of course, in the Army, you have rotary wing, but I couldn't see. So that was something that was not an option for me. So the hardest thing I could choose was the Airborne Ranger route. And so that's what I did. And I think that was an amazing opportunity for me to explore new growth edges. So again, at this point, I hadn't really failed. I'd kind of stepped into harder and harder spaces. So I'd gone from, you know, being a pretty, pretty good student in high school and good athlete to a really hard college experience, finding my way through West Point, eventually, you know, being, you know, a wreath guy, which is a pretty high-ranking person at West Point. And I'm like, okay, well, let's see, let's see how hard the Army can make it. And that was the Airborne Ranger route. And so in that, in that space, I think what I was, what I was learning is how to manage my body at a different level. And mind-body separation. So Ranger School, for those that are unfamiliar with it, is at the time at least it was 63 days long. You get, you average 1 meal a day and about 2 hours sleep a night. So you're constantly moving. You're, you know, everybody loses 30 or 40 pounds during the, during the course of the school. A lot of people fall and break their backs. There are 2 people that died in the phase right before I got there. So it's a pretty hard school. And so I was learning like my mind, might say, hey, it's time to quit because you're gonna die, but my body could keep going. And there were other times my body was like, no, we're done. You haven't slept for 4 days, you haven't really eaten for 2 days. No matter what your mind says, we're shutting down. And so I think that was a— it was a great experience to learn, uh, the, the separation of the two and to start to step into a better understanding of the knowledge of the body and the knowledge of the mind or brain and how different they are and how they show up differently. And so that was a really, uh, wonderful exercise, even though it was incredibly difficult.

And what year did you graduate from Ranger School and what'd you do after that?

I graduated in '96. Um, after that I was with the 4th Infantry Division and, uh, you know, my time in the Army was pretty benign. You know, we were, this is before 2011 or September 11th, 2001. It was a pretty quiet period, you know, that we had Mogadishu during that timeframe. I was not part of that. I had, you know, people that I knew that were there. We lost 17 Rangers in the streets of Mogadishu for those that may not recall that. But, but it was, it was, it was pretty easy sailing. And I think, um, it was, I was actually kind of bored with my job in the military and I was very ready to get out when I did, which happened to be right before September 11th, 2001.

You know, I know the transition from military to civilian is not always easy. What did that look like for you and what did you step into from there?

Yeah, I got really lucky. I had a childhood friend that was in the institutional asset management space and I called him and said, hey, Dave Mertens. And Dave continues to be a really, really close personal friend. I'm getting out of the military. I need a job. I'd like to work in Colorado because I like living in Colorado. and he's like, great, come to Denver and let's have a discussion. And I got hired really quickly, at Janus, what is now Janus Henderson. I was, you know, thrown into a space where they said, look, you, you have good interpersonal skills, you have good EQ, you seem like a smart enough guy, although they didn't really understand what rock math was all about. Um, so, uh, we want you to, to help work on, uh, some M&A stuff that we're doing. So I, I basically jumped right into being able to work on deals that were in acquisition mode. And helping to evaluate deals, and that went pretty well. So then I moved into a role where I ran the sub-advisory business, so the insurance sub-advisory account insurance business for Janet, a portion of Janus Henderson. And through the acquisitions, we ended up acquiring a company called Intech, which was a quantitative strategy, and it was really complicated. And so nobody really wanted to touch it. I thought it was really cool, because I was like, this is where a lot of asset management is going to go. It's going to go in the— it's going to go— machines are going to do a lot more in asset management than they're doing today. So they said, great, if you want to work on this, work on it. And so what that allowed me to do was find some open ground to be able to express myself and what, what by then I knew were my talents. And so I ended up being the youngest managing director in Janus's history and running the institutional sales team, and that team happened to be the fastest growing and most profitable division of then a publicly traded company. So I'm learning, you know, a bunch of different things simultaneously, right? So the transition goes relatively smoothly. I jump right into the deep end. I can swim pretty well, well enough at least to be able to move and be promoted in the Janus system. And, you know, I'm thinking, I got this. Like, I'm pretty— I'm riding pretty high at that point because I'm making a lot of money. You know, a lot of the work that I'm doing with my team is responsible for the earnings call every quarter. I'm learning what it's like to be a corporate executive and I'm in a publicly traded company. So by 2007, I was both feeling very confident in my capability set. I had my first child and I was like, okay, I'm excited to be a new father. I totally got this. You know what I should do? I should quit. I should leave my bonus behind. My wife is still not super happy about this choice today, um, and I should start my first company. I should move into being an entrepreneur right into the teeth of the great financial crisis.

Well, I definitely want to dive in there, but I happen to know that being a managing director pays a little bit better than the military. What was your first taste of, of earning and, and how did that feel?

Yeah, I think It, uh, it felt like security, you know, stability. And the protector-provider drive that I think is inherent, especially in a lot of guys, was, was being met. Like, I can, I can take care of my family, um, and I can do more than that. I can take care of other members of the community. So going back to that, the, the early experiences of being around impoverished people, like, I could do more. So I was part of nonprofits and immediately working with those communities that are underserved. So I felt— it felt really good to have that stability and security and safety.

Yeah. Amazing. I mean, I'm hearing a very early through line of service from the first minute you start getting bigger paychecks. And we'll definitely continue that arc. So, you dive into entrepreneurship headfirst into the financial crisis.

Yeah.

Tell me what happens.

We had a great capital partner straight out of the gate. So I had this idea that the multi-boutique approach in asset management was going to be something that was going to really grow. It's pretty early. That business model was pretty early in those days. So the, the Wilson family that started Holiday Inn and invented the timeshare and has the largest timeshare in the world, they came in as a capital partner and said, we believe that you and John Zimmerman, my partner at the time, are capable of executing against this multi-boutique strategy. Let's build the company around it. So we're like, great, you're the capital, we're the entrepreneurs. At least we thought we were entrepreneurs. We didn't really know what that meant because we were really corporate executives pretending to be entrepreneurs. And so we're off to the races like right away. Trying to find smaller asset managers, buy a minority interest in those smaller asset managers, and build up the asset base, which has got a tremendous amount of leverage associated with that. So you can do really well from a cash flow perspective. So, but as it turns out, the market was a little unstable in 2008. So, so what it, what it, what it felt like is I went from a pretty high-flying managing director position at Janus to like, oh my God, we're, we're not going to make it regardless of the capital partner we had. We're not going to make it because the global markets are melting down and nobody wants to sell their business at the bottom. And asset management businesses probably have more leverage to that instability than anybody else. So there's no way we're going to be able to, to, to buy anything at this stage. So, so we pivoted really quickly and we started to go to all the large private equity players and say, hey, this is, this is the market to buy something. And we found traction with KKR and they said, we're with you, let's go do this. Let's go, let's go buy Janus. And so we ran down that path really hard and I thought, this is going to be amazing because we're going to end up with a massive asset that we know really, really well. And, you know, we can start making money again and this is going to be a big company. But that didn't happen, uh, because the board at Janus was dealing with the great financial crisis. They were freaked out. They were not interested in anybody, uh, that wanted to write a check for the business. And so a few months later, I remember being with, um, uh, Spencer— Spence Wilson, who's a patriarch of the Wilson family, and he said, look, the Wilsons— the Wilson family is experiencing a lot right now with our portfolio, and and so we think we're gonna have to significantly, you know, cut the, our capital commitment and we're not sure we can continue this. So at that point I'm thinking, well, the, the, the investors that we have, I'm gonna have to go back to 'em and tell 'em, you know, we've essentially lost our money and they have nothing. I'm not gonna have a job. I'm not gonna be able to get a job because it's this great financial crisis and I know financial services and, um, you know, I, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen. My, with my relationship because this is really difficult, a difficult time to go through, especially as a new father.

And just take me back to that moment. I mean, what kind of pressure were you feeling? I mean, how did you deal with that?

You know, I don't think I had a lot of tools at that point in time to deal with it. Um, I think I did two things that I knew how to do, and both of them have served me well. And have really served me poorly. Uh, I drank, uh, and alcohol is an amazing off switch for those of us that just charge, charge, charge. I don't drink anymore. And, you know, I think that that was one way that I dealt with that pressure in a super unhealthy way, but just shove down the emotions, cover it up with alcohol, and then move forward. That was the second thing I did is move forward. Just move forward. Just get up and move forward. And so by getting up and moving forward, we started to piece together a business and we started to be able to get to a place where we could, we could take some smaller stakes in these asset management companies that were on their back foot. And we found a group in Seattle that was similarly positioned in the marketplace, had the same vision as we did. And so we merged with that group. We created Northern Lights Capital. and with Northern Lights Capital, they had another family, um, the Laird Norton family that started Weyerhaeuser as their capital partner. And they also brought to the table, uh, BNP Paribas. It's like the 6th largest bank in Europe, I think. Um, and so now we had capital, markets were turning, I was drinking, which was unhealthy. Um, but I think by using alcohol to cover up a lot of those emotions that I didn't know how to deal with, I didn't have tools to deal with. I was able to move forward, and by moving forward, we were able to start to build a company.

Yeah. And it strikes me that we are taught one really— two important skills that you're using here. One is compartmentalization. We know how to shove those emotions down and just put our head forward. And we're taught how to drink. Yeah, right. I mean, this is kind of our inheritance from the military. It's the go-to.

Yes, it is.

Right. And but you start finding some success and how does your path unfold from there?

Yeah. So by 2012 or so, we were, we were in a position to continue to acquire minority interest in asset management companies. So we, we continued to do that. And by leveraging centralized service capabilities, we were building operating leverage in the company. Which allowed us to, to continue to take free cash flow and buy more minority interest and continue to repeat the process. And, and so by 2014, our investors were getting pretty itchy and we were trying to figure out like, what, what should we do? And I had an amazing partner, had a few at that point in time. Paul Greenwood and Tim Carver, Andy Turner, John Zimmerman were all partners, but In specific, Tim Carver is a magician when it comes to financial engineering. He went to Harvard and he may not like me talking about this because he's the CEO of a company now, but he studied mythology and folklore, which makes him particularly creative. So he found a way to take a, what was a Post-it note company that was publicly traded in Australia and use it as a way to access capital markets. So we went, we took Pacific Current Group public through that company in 2014. So as far as how I was feeling, I was feeling like we're probably going to make it. I had my second child and this whole thing may turn out pretty well. It may turn out pretty well. So I think the IPO was better than pretty well. Everybody made money. And so at that point in time, it was like, it was like crossing the finish line. Of an Ironman, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't a marathon because that's just running. It was like there was swimming, there was biking, there was crying, there was drinking, there was we're not going to make it. And then, you know, we got there.

Give me a sense of how hard you were working. I mean, you know, I know the grind in finance and what was that like? And, you know, for the bootstrappers out there, You know, when did you get kind of the financial success?

You know, we were fortunate enough with that business that we had the right capital partners that we could take salaries, not market-level salaries, but take salaries and continue just to build up the business. So we were, you know, we were pretty stable in that business after we got through '08, '09. So, so '09 to like 2000, '14. So that's what, 5 years? So 5 years. And so that part wasn't really the big part of the overall equation for us as far as stability is concerned. For, from a bootstrapping perspective, we were working pretty hard because we had 19 underlying companies on 4 different continents. So it was very routine for me to go from like Denver to Seattle, you know, Seattle to Hong Kong, Hong Kong to you know, India, India to London, back to Denver in 6 days. That was like a pretty, pretty normal routine. So at the end of, by 2016, so I, after, after '14 we went public, I had an earnout, uh, was, was longer than I stayed. And, um, I, I was just exhausted. So by 2016 I was really physically depleted and it wasn't so much the economic piece, it was, it was literally the physical aspects of looking for new deals and continuing to grow the companies we had because they were so globally spread out. And it was, you know, entrepreneurs will all appreciate this. It was a world filled with, at that point in time, with surprises at every turn. So if you have a business that's pretty straightforward or like singularly focused, you have a certain series of surprises. When you have 19 companies on 4 different continents, you're surprised that may pop up, maybe you know, repatriation of dollars from Australia to the US, you know, that you thought you could do, you can't do. And a publicly traded company that meets once a month in Australia by regulation has different requirements than even the quarterly requirements of a US-based company. So the surprises, the emotional triggering of the surprises was probably the hardest part.

And was there a rock bottom moment or a turning point where you realized this wasn't working for you?

I think as soon as we went public, I was like, I need to stop and I need to spend time with my family. And so it was about a year later where I felt like, okay, I found the right place to land and it's in Boulder and it's a multifamily office and I'm going to get out of this business of building anything. I'm just, I'm just going to be an investor. I don't want to be an entrepreneur anymore. I don't want to build businesses anymore. I just want to sit back with other entrepreneurs and pick companies that we think are going to do well and invest. And so I ran a multifamily office for a few years and just, just did that. But here's— so that wasn't really, I wouldn't say at that point a rock bottom. I'd say it was more just a misalignment and an exhaustion. And, and I thought I was just finished. I didn't want to do it anymore. That was never the right fit for me, that multifamily office in Boulder. Because I wasn't building anything and I wasn't creating anymore. And as, as all entrepreneurs know, like that fire that's in your belly to create doesn't really go away. And so if you're, if you're not doing that, which I wasn't, it's going to emerge, you know, it's going to come up again. So what happened was I got pushed out of that partnership and, you know, that was the wake-up call that it was time to find alignment again in a different way. And that's when I met Vinay.

You sort of take the physical break and kind of go on coast mode, but you're still building something that's out of alignment. And, you know, for, for those listening that, that may be in that place, what's the cost and how do you start to reconcile that?

Which part?

The building out of alignment, doing something that doesn't light you up and just collecting a paycheck. And how do you How do you reconcile and start to, to get right?

Yeah, I think building out of alignment is really difficult. It's just the hard path. And the worst form of that is building from a place of fear. And so if you build from a place of fear, it's inevitable because you're so out of alignment. You're just running, you know, you're operating from a place of scarcity. It's, it's not enough. I'm going to make it, but I'm just going to work harder. That's going to crumble in a big way. And so I think alignment, you know, comes in the form for me of feeling into my heart center and that service component that you mentioned before, and really doing a somatic check of like, you know, am I running full throttle with all of my systems, fight or flight, you know, in the, in the sympathetic nervous system, or am I in a more stable place? Not moving out of fear, not running from something, but being pulled towards something, being excited about something. And so that alignment is what I was seeking in, uh, in 2018. And I was curious about what would show up, right? I knew enough by then to know that building as an entrepreneur out of alignment is really, really hard. And ultimately it's suboptimized and it will cost you your life. It'll definitely cost you your health. And I think it'll cost you your life. And so by 18, I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. And so this opportunity of leaving this multifamily office, again, not my choice, because I would've stayed there one foot in front of the other, pressed ahead like we talked about before, used alcohol to solve the pain. And just continue to ranger on, right? Uh, that, that opportunity when I got pushed out of that partnership was an opportunity to reconcile. Like, do I want to continue to swim upstream? The West Point loves swimming upstream. That's like their thing. That's what they— or do I want to start swimming downstream? And downstream to me means in alignment. And, and mostly that's, that's feeling into my heart center and feeling into— in that heart center, what am I being pulled toward? I don't want to run away from something. What am I being pulled towards? What's magnetizing me towards something? And at that point it was AI and it was like, okay, I understand financial services. I like exploring growth edges and, you know, building something as a technology entrepreneur would be interesting. Do I feel— does my heart feel aligned with doing that? And so what it, what it feels like in my system when that comes up is it's like a warm feeling in my heart center. It's like a yes, yes, let's go do this. And so rather than being draining, it's energizing, right? And so I'm feeling the energy pour into my system, and, uh, Vinay and I are starting to talk about what Tiffin could look like. And, um, I started to get excited about building as an entrepreneur in AI.

And I just want to pause here a second because You are using language that is not taught in the military, certainly not taught in financial engineering. How did you start waking up to this process?

Yeah, I think I had a lot of hard lessons, right? I'd found myself out of alignment more than a few times and I'd chosen the harder path. I mean, I chose the harder path to this, this whole story, right? Every single time. And I chose it with the, the concept and the training that working harder will get you where you want to go. At some point, as we've already discussed, I became exhausted by that process. And so I realized that, hey, this is not the way I want to continue my life. This is not how I want to show up for my family. This is not how I want to build. I want to build with enthusiasm. I don't want to dread going into to build just because I have some obligation. I don't think obligation and love can coexist. You're either obligated to go do what you do or you love doing what you do. Choose one, you know. And if you, if you're not moving from a place of loving what you do and like, I'm practical, like there are some days that, you know, you don't love. Like yesterday I was working on some invoicing I had to do. I don't love doing that, but I love what I do today. And so building from that place is where, where I wanted to be in alignment. So I think that I'd had enough experience doing it the other way and it was full of enough pain that I wanted the pain to stop and I wanted to feel like I was pulled towards something and being energized. And so, um, learning, waking up to, with my somatic therapist Aaron Galloway, if anybody ever wants to meet him, just ping me, I'll introduce you, um, to the knowledge base in my body and how to access sort of deeper knowledge that would get me out of this, um, place of, you know, painful creation as an entrepreneur. The way that we've been taught in society to build, you know, I grew up in financial services, it's you know, full of people who went to Harvard and Princeton and Naval Academy and other places that are great educational institutions that are taught, you know, if you can use your mind, your brain to, to learn more information and regurgitate it faster and you work harder, you're going to make money, you're going to be successful. But what is success, right? What is success? You have money and you're, you know, your health is crap. Are you successful? I don't think so. So, so the awakening for me came when I really started to learn to listen to my body and to trust it and to ask my mind, you know, hey, I appreciate you, um, but what if you just took a break for a second? What if— and I started meditation, you know, and we did things at Tiffin like hired a chief mindfulness officer, Thomas Droge, great guy. And with— in that space, listening to my body was really the awakening, because what I found was my instinct, my intuition the deeper knowledge that resides in my, in my somatic system was really fast and really accurate. And so the more I stepped into it and the more I trusted it, the faster I could go and the more fun I was having, right? And so I, I don't like it when people talk about ego death. I don't love— I don't like it when people talk about, you know, um, you know, I really don't— my mind is always like, you know, trying to, uh, sidetrack me or throw me off. I think the mind is amazing, and I have an incredible amount of gratitude for my mind. But oftentimes now I listen to my body first, and then I ask my mind for the data and analysis to back up what I'm feeling. So that to me was a big awakening in starting to bring into this programming of, you know, grit, growth mindset, never quit, never surrender, sort of work ethic, this opportunity to feel into what alignment really feels like, and then to, to seek that not just in, you know, every year's worth of work, not just every quarter, not just every week, but every, every moment. And so we get to like presencing and how important that is to be aware of, uh, what is arising in your somatic system as a, as a really strong compass in a constantly shifting landscape. We've talked about different business opportunities and entrepreneurial roles. And, you know, I was a CEO at Tiffin and what that— these are all like labels. The reality is, you know, I think I've always operated in a very— an environment that's constantly changing, and I'm fine with that. But using my head wasn't serving me. Using my body really has helped me a lot.

Well, it's, it's such a fascinating process, and it, and you know, going from everything has to be hard to, you know, recognizing— and by the way, it serves us really well, right? So the, the same process served me really well until it didn't. And then, you know, for most of us, eventually we find that there has to be a better way. And, and meditation was deeply impactful in, in my journey as well. So now bringing this kind of newfound consciousness and awareness into Tiffen, uh, how does that How does that path unfold for you?

Yeah, I mean, I think from the outset, Vinay and I were very aligned around this in a, he is a deep meditation practitioner and I learned a lot working with him. And we would do things like vision quest work with our C-suite where we would go to Crestone, Colorado and do solo retreats. And so we started to bring this into the work at Tiffin as part of an integrated way to approach all the work that we did. And so I think— but what it allowed us to do was to, to move really quickly. We moved away from the kind of traditional Industrial Revolution linear orientation that was so focused on some of the things we've talked about here, like engineering skill set, you know, be really good at financial engineering, be really good at engineering engineering. Work harder. Those are all things that benefited the assembly line, right? But what was happening in 2019, 2020 is we're moving away from this linear-based thought process. We're moving into, uh, you know, Klaus Schwab, uh, quoted this in— he's the founder of the World Economic Forum and chairman of the World Economic Forum— in 2016, he said, hey, this is the fourth industrial revolution and it's driven by AI, right? And so, and so I think what was happening, we when Tiffin was taking off in really 2018, '19 is we were recognizing we were at a really pivotal point in time from a broader landscape perspective. And so we needed to approach our work very differently. Right. And so rather than start one company this time, we started 10 in, you know, 30 months. Right. And so we were like, we just need to go really fast. Innovation at speed, growth at the edge. These were our core values and remain core values at Tiffin. Because the world's moving a lot faster and it's not moving on an X-Y axis. Now it's X, Y, Z. It's, it's really moving in a way that is multidirectional. And so how do we keep pace with that? And we were the first to bring natural language search to the financial services space, the first to do a conversational AI in the financial services space and a lot of other things at Tiffin, you know. And so we just, we just thought differently and we did, you know, we with our chief mindfulness officer, we would do Qigong. Every Wednesday at noon, right? And so we would open meetings with meditation practices so that we were— what we were doing is building in a different ritual system to honor not just company culture, but to build company consciousness, a collective consciousness that was formed as we went from 3 people to 30 people to 320-plus-odd people. And we brought on, you know, new strategic partners like JP Morgan, Franklin Templeton, Morningstar, Hamilton Lane. All of, all of those folks could easily disrupt your culture we really worked to create a container that was strong enough to, to withstand different cultural influences because we were so embedded in this collective consciousness in a different way of thinking that allowed us to go really, really fast. So that, that is— was a— it has been and is— it continues to be an amazing organization because this, you know, growth— it's a billion-dollar company today. It'll be a $5 billion company in a couple of years. It's, uh, and for me it was transformational because not only am I going deeper inside through, you know, through meditation work, you know, through somatic, uh, somatic work we've discussed, holotropic breathwork, in integrating these practices on a personal level, but also bringing that energy into the organization. And essentially the military called this— it, Naval Academy as well as West Point, I'm pretty sure tone at the top, right? Tone at the top. And the entrepreneurs listening to this podcast might appreciate that I don't think the military knew that what they were really talking about was resonant tone. So the frequency, the energy you bring into your work each day really creates the stability, safety, and psychological safety and security for the organization to perform at a very high level if it's done properly, right? So we get to like Jeremy Utley's work ideal flow. Why does it— why does one company have more ideas or better ideas than another company? They have more ideas. Why do they have more ideas? Because they've created psychological safety. So, so Tiffin was really an opportunity to practice this across 10 different companies at speed and learn with really quick iterations. Like, is this working? Is it not working? Let's, let's, let's learn really, really fast and let's let's learn to, as individuals and collectively as a collective consciousness, learn to maintain more equanimity for those that follow the Buddhist tradition, or step into a super observer position for those that are more, um, scientifically oriented. But to be able to observe things unfolding in the organization, real time, at speed, with the backdrop and accelerant of AI, because we're building AI companies. These are all AI companies. And so this was, this was a really expansive period for me. So we'd gone through this sort of alignment opportunity and call it dark night if you want to, to now aligned and feeling like, okay, there's the, you know, as a, as a creator, as a co-creator, as an entrepreneur that's bringing ideas through from, let's call it David Bohm's work. He's a great physicist, right? Einstein called him his spiritual guru. David Bohm would describe this as the, you know, seen and unseen, or the implicit order and explicate order. But entrepreneurs are bringing ideas through and making them reality, right? So the question now during that time for me was, could I stay centered and balanced enough to observe the whole landscape, develop a different map, like real time, that was very flexible because it's all sort of energy, really. And a compass that allowed the whole organization to go faster. 'Cause if the leader does that and the leader sets that resonance, that tone at the top, then the whole organization follows. And what you have is collective coherence. And collective coherence is how companies get built at speed with purpose.

This is so fascinating to me because there are a lot of founders, I think, that are on the waking up path, that are, you know, going down the meditation rabbit hole. But I think there's a real fear bringing that to the company culture, right? It's a whole nother leap to do it for yourself and then bring it to team members. How was that received? I mean, how did you implement that as a company-wide culture?

Yeah, I mean, I think in many ways it's pretty binary as far as how people receive it. Because if it, if it goes strongly against their worldview, like everything is, um, material and, and can be touched, and maybe they're atheists and there's nothing after death, it's pretty hard. And so, because you're asking them to move in a level of ambiguity that they just have never experienced before, so you get to see people move into their fight-or-flight themselves and just crumble under the pressure of the speed of what we're talking about. Because you— there's, there's nothing to hold on to. Like, so if you're a software engineer and you're really good at writing code and, and they come to you and say, hey, it's, you know, there's, there are machines you can write code now and it's much faster, that just distorts your whole worldview in a way that's really hard for you to digest. So there's that group. Then there's another group that's like, this is incredibly liberating, let's go, because I, I can feel it when I'm in coherence. I can feel it when I'm in alignment, and I feel so free to move and to step into the thing that's most uniquely human, which is creativity. So, you know, humans are very good at adaptability and they're very good at creativity. And so the people that really enjoy what we've discussed, or they're bringing this into their company, is because they recognize that this allows the fullest expression of them as humans. And in today's world with machines as amazing partners, it allows them to go faster and do more than they could ever imagine. So, so those folks get really, really excited. And I think we found more and more of those folks. But I recognize that for a lot of people that are more hard science-based, much of what I'm touching into feels like pretty out there, pretty like ethereal, like how do we Now science is catching up. And so, um, if you follow science, you'll, you'll find that I don't think it's actually that far out there anymore. Um, the, the thing that is really interesting at this point in time is I think we're stepping into, uh, an age where this is necessary. So the Renaissance period, for example, lasted, you know, from 1400 to 1650, right? And, you know, we, we had things that were emerging at that point in time, thanks to Gutenberg, like the printing press. So you had a time where, you know, religions and educational institutions, they had all the books. So there's really no chance that somebody's going to catch up with information. And to me, that printing press shift feels a lot like the internet, like, you know, YouTube University. We have access to amazing amount of information today. Um, the, the Florentine guilds where we shared information, to me that feels exactly like open source. Today. And there's a lot of, you know, you can build on code that's already been built because it's shared openly today. So, you know, I think the new map in the Renaissance period, you know, people got on boats and they took years to go sail into parts of the world that had been unexplored. That new map is quantum, the quantum field, and new opportunities that just didn't exist 2 or 3 years ago. So the group, there's a group that's really, really energized by that. And they also recognize that the old ways of leadership, and this is a body of work that, that I'm very focused on right now, I call it Level 7 Leadership, but, uh, the old ways of leadership don't really work anymore in the way they used to because old ways of leadership really were focused on that assembly line orientation, linear thought process, thinking about strategic plans in years, not quarters or even months, and not having the feedback loops to get real-time feedback. Right. And so in a world where we have machines that are very good at scaling things, they're very good at precision. We don't need humans to do that part anymore. We need humans to lean into the human piece, which is adaptability, resilience, performance under pressure. So if you're unable to perform under pressure, that's a problem. Performance under pressure, all which feeds into creativity and creativity not being something that we're taught in school. Creativity could be pricing models, it could be revenue models. It could be just thinking about this business in a different way because The world's different than it was a year ago. That requires a different style of leadership. So, you know, this is a really exciting time for entrepreneurs and for executives, those that may find themselves kind of lost, adrift for a little while because none of what they have learned and used in the past is working anymore in this new world. But it's, it's really exciting because I think it's an opportunity for a new style of leadership to emerge is built on the back of servant leadership, still honors that style of leadership from a moral perspective, but moves at speed because servant leadership's great unless you have to execute really quickly, then it doesn't work because it's too slow.

There's so many fascinating things to unpack here, but what's coming up for me is this inflection point that you're, that you're touching on, right? I mean, depending on your worldview, AI could be considered an emergent consciousness, which is not something that we've ever dealt with, uh, on a, on a global scale before. Massive opportunity, but also deeply destabilizing and probably dependent on your worldview. How do you think about that and how, you know, what is the future of work and meaning for humans in this new landscape?

Yeah, I, I think that there's a, there's a constant circle, if you will, that's that's always unfolding and it's order, disorder, reorder, order, disorder, reorder. And so we're going through a period with the emergent technologies that are available and I don't even like AI. I mean, I'm okay with kind of augmented intelligence to your point. I prefer just intelligence where there's a new type of intelligence that's really taking shape in a new way that's accelerating everything. and that's going to cause disruption. You know, we've seen it at the federal government level and using AI to ferret out fraud. You know, agree with it, don't agree with it, that's not the point. The point is the speed at which it happened. And so this is, you know, again, for me, very similar to the Renaissance period. They were just coming out of, you know, dealing with the plague. They had political instability. We had COVID. We have a certain level of political instability today. That's the, that is the disorder process, which has to happen before you get the opportunity to create reorder and some level of stability. The cycles are just happening a lot faster now. So for me, it's a very exciting time. It's because it's very liberating in being able to create or co-create with machines at speed. And so things that used to take that take years to get done can happen in weeks and weeks and days. And everybody here on the podcast can agree with that. I mean, you just think about Spotify. How long would it take you to put together a playlist? You know, when I, when I had to record something on a cassette tape, it took a long time and we would set boomboxes, you know, across from each other to be able to record something. It would take a long time. You know, it takes me a few seconds to put together a playlist today. Right. And AI can even do it faster, you know, and does every day for us. Right. So to me, it's a— we're in an emergent time of amazing opportunity to co-create, but it's going to require a different way of thinking, a different way of being, a different way of leading, and a different way of working. To come back to your question on how that— what that work looks like, I think it's much more flexible. And there's a whole value system component to this and, and what different generations value, but I think it's more flexible. I think there is a community component that's not been addressed appropriately yet, like whether people work in person or they work remotely. I think people do have a strong desire for community and we're going to find a new way to create community, in-person community for people who really— like most people want that. I don't think humans are meant to do this, this life solo. And so that's going to be different. And if I, if I sort of think into what the trends look like for the next 2 or 3 years on work, I feel it's gonna be very results-oriented versus activity, which is a big shift. There's a lot of people in big corporate organizations now that they just do activity. There's no, you know, results is like whatever. Entrepreneurs know that results matter, and organizations are going to very quickly with technology figure out where there's activity versus results. So there's going to be a much more results-based orientation, and that's going to give talented people and those that are willing to become more talented because they have YouTube University and all of the information ever available in the world at their fingertips through their device, um, the opportunity to work on a, on a project basis. So what that probably looks like is rather than working a 40-hour week, whether it's in person or remotely, they're going to say, hey, I'm really good at doing this thing, right? You want 3 features added to, to your platform? I can get that done. Um, You know, how's, how's this week look to have that done? So deadline deliverable. Yeah. And the, the entrepreneur says to the developer, sounds good. And the developer's thinking, I can probably do this today. I can take the rest of the week off. And that's fine because what the entrepreneur wants is the result and they're willing to pay for it. And so I think that, that, that's what work looks like. And then the second, the second part of that for me would be as people step into themselves more fully. They're gonna find they have a lot of different interests, maybe 3 things or 5 things they're interested in. I know you're interested in cars, right? You had a Lamborghini and that's cool. So why shouldn't you be able to build a company in technology and do something with cars? And so I think people will have, they'll do more project-based work with more flexibility. It'll be a lot faster. So that's gonna open up a space for them to fill in with 2 or 3 other quote unquote jobs. But the reality is there'll be passions that they're making money doing. Yeah, I love this.

I mean, in my work, I call this becoming multidimensional, right? We— I think we've been sold for so long that work needs to be our entire identity. And I think that becomes more and more dangerous in the future as, you know, the way we work and the amount of time we spend working starts to shift. If we don't have other areas that light us up and bring us joy and bring us fulfillment, we're really facing a pretty scary time.

I'm not scared. I'm, I'm, uh, as a matter of fact, I, I, I would like to think that we are moving to a time where there's just a lot less fear. And I can, I can imagine a time where there's no fear. And, and, and so I recognize there may be some ground to cover, but we're covering ground a lot faster than we used to. To get there. So, so I agree with you on the, the multidimensionality. I just don't think it's scary. I think it's exciting. Um, and I don't, I don't know all of your work. I'm excited to learn more. But one of the things I feel that we are aligned on, you and I, is this concept of what's energizing versus what's draining. And I think if, if everybody, just everybody listening, would just take time once a week to create a T-chart, um, and the one left-hand side put, these are things I do during the week that are energizing, These are things I do the week that are draining and really try to live into more of those things that are energizing. What's going to unfold is dramatically, like, amazingly impactful for their individual lives. And then at scale, what it looks like is we hear a lot of this. We hear like, forecast by, you know, 2030, there'll be 400 million less jobs because of AI. Maybe. But will there be 600 million new jobs created. Maybe nobody ever talks about that side of the equation, but if I feel like that, if people would stick with feeling in, feeling into their alignment and focus on what's energizing versus draining, then, then I have no idea how many opportunities there are to, to make money. But there, there are more than we could ever imagine.

Yeah. And I think just to a point of clarification, What I was saying is scary is for people that have built their entire identity on external validation, on worldly success. Yeah. You know, as our lives are less tied to time or value, that can be— that's going to be really a destabilizing force. And so we have to find meaning. Yeah. Elsewhere.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. A friend of mine, Kate Allenson, calls this the messy middle. And she's been in the executive recruiting space for a long time. And what she sees more now than ever are executives that show up and they say, hey, I did exactly what you just described, Mike. I— my whole— my whole identity was caught up in my job and how much money I made. And, you know, I did all the things and I'm totally unfulfilled. And now I don't even know what to do because I don't know how to— I don't know how to— I feel like I want to do something that's more aligned, but I don't even know how to begin finding a So on that note, you've obviously been very successful financially.

What does wealth mean to you now?

Yeah. Hmm. You know, on an individual basis, I think it means the ability to show up in service. And that's kind of the through line for me all the way from the beginning. But I can do it from a place of like Just dropping fear altogether because there's nothing to be afraid of, right?

Well, we, we certainly, uh, have a shared definition of wealth, uh, because I believe there's no true wealth without service. What does service look like for you now?

Yeah, I, I think it's, um, first it starts with me, right? And showing up in the best version of myself that I can every single day. And in doing so, I believe that I'm magnetizing myself to attract others that show up similarly. And with that group, an amazing sort of amplification happens and we start to, to build new companies really quickly. Like last year, we built a company in 14 months, we sold to Shopify and it was a, it was a great company called Vanish Discovery. And every entrepreneur that was involved with that company, we were just, we were just showing up in a similar way with the shared purpose. And that, that's really where it starts. So it starts with me and then it builds from how I show up to other communities that show up similarly. And I believe that it radiates out from there and it's not that complicated, right? So the people who are happy building what they're building Um, and again, there's tough days. I'm not saying it's like, you know, we're in utopic bliss land. Um, but they, they, the people that I'm talking about, when they, when they walk out and they smile at somebody on the street, or they look at somebody without pity, or that somebody, you know, they judge somebody that they need help, and instead of helping, they serve. Because, and they serve through a smile or through looking at a person like, uh, I understand that maybe you're, you're having a bad day, and I just, I feel love for you. That's service. And then that builds into all kinds of amazing organizations and structures that create things and benefit people in ways that I could never imagine. And that's where you get to Sangha. So I co-founded a, you know, a company called Sangha about a year ago with 4 other people that are amazing people that I would say came into my life in the same way that that I've just described, you know. Um, and there were two of them had, had started this group that they called Sangha, and they said this is, this is an amazing place for leaders that are emergent on the spiritual path, or maybe they're pretty well-versed on the spiritual path, but they want to be in a space with other leaders without judgment, with other people that have a daily practice, that are dedicated to daily practice. So they have their own thing and so wouldn't it be cool if we like built this into a company? And so that was 12 months ago. Today, Sangha has— we call them circles, so groups of 6 to 8 people, half men, half women. We think it's very important to have that, that male-female balance in the work that we do. But we have circles in— we have multiple circles in New York, San Francisco, multiple circles in San Francisco, Boulder, Montreal. We have people who want to open circles in Costa Rica, Miami, LA, you know, Austin. And, um, you know, I don't know where this goes. We're not trying to build it the way an entrepreneur would try to build. We're, we're, we're trying to step into this as clear channels, um, for this to emerge through us. And, uh, so far it's been an amazing journey and I, I can't wait for the impact that, that Sangha is able to create as its own entity, uh, as it continues to mature.

It's such an amazing concept and, and I personally can't wait to learn more. So, you know, from this place, what's lighting you up the most now, and, and how do you view your day-to-day?

Yeah, I mean, first, I value more than anything else my personal freedom, right? Um, and so that's something, as I think about my day-to-day, I want to make sure that I'm aligned with. And I just couldn't be more humbled by the ability to show up and co-create every day. Um, and I'm excited like a little kid on a scavenger hunt as what's going to show up, because I have no idea what's going to show up, right? Um, as I mentioned to you coming in here today, you know, I was watching one of your podcasts and a friend of mine texted me and said, hey, you gotta check this guy Mike out. What are the chances of that? No chances of that. Just it— but that, that happens all the time. That sort of thing happens all the time. And so, so what, what lights me up is waking up every morning, doing my daily meditation practice, going to the trails. I do about an hour meditation, then I go to the trails for an hour. And so I'm really full with like lots of nature and, and lots of introspection and, and feeling that move through my system. And then opening up and saying, what's going to show up today? And then having the opportunity— this is the personal freedom piece— to be able to, to chase some of those things and be a part of them and build with them. So, you know, I get a— I get great opportunity to sit on a few big company boards like Lockton, you know, company board or Bow River Capital's board and, and be the board member that can look around corners because he has had experience building in AI, not the board member who's interested in the dividend. That's super fun. And these, you know, Lockton is the largest privately held insurance brokerage firm in the world, operates in 55 countries, 13,000 employees. It's really fun for me to dig into that broad problem set. How do you, how do you bring AI into that organization? How do you bring more technology in the organization? and it's, and it's fun for me to be able to, advise on earlier stage companies. I mentioned before Vanish Discovery. I'm working on a few others. Brightwave, which is agentic AI for the financial services space, and I think it's gonna revolutionize, is revolutionized how, how private equity and venture capital can get to information really quickly with agentic AI. Another one's called Grid Arrow, kind of hits closer to your old world. Um, it's how we, we built autonomous aircraft for cargo delivery. And so rather than a C-131 or C-141 having to go and congest contested airspace, we can fly in 6 or 8 of these smaller, much less expensive, you know, unmanned aircraft and deliver cargo that way. And I think that's going to revolutionize, you know, how areas like sub-Saharan Africa get medical supplies delivered or how people in Alaska, you know, get their FedEx or Amazon packages. So really— so I'm really excited about that. And then, and then, you know, lastly, it's— and this is not in any particular order— it's the opportunity I get with Sangha and other groups. I have 3 or 4 other groups that I'm a part of that are, that are similar. And the thing, last thing I did before I came into this discussion today was do a meditation with a buddy of mine, John Churchill, who's a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner in another group I'm a part of in San Francisco. And the, the leaders that are showing up, these are not woo-woo leaders. These are entrepreneurs. They have built companies that you would know well. They're, they're some of the largest companies in the United States that they've started and built. And these are the people that are showing up in these circles. That gets me really fired up. And that's led me to Level 7 Leadership, the book, Leading in the Age of AI, which is just, you know, thinking about leadership differently as the world moves at a faster pace than it ever has.

And is the book out yet? Can we—

can we preorder? Sometime early next year.

Yeah. Hey, me too. We'll, we'll do a co-launch. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you. That'd be great. I mean, this is—

it's such a fascinating arc. From, you know, the guy in Ranger School putting one foot in front of the other, the guy drinking too much, you know, just again putting his head down, working harder. What do you— what would you go back and tell that younger version of yourself now?

You know, this is a practice I think is actually pretty helpful, uh, to do on my own, which is using a future version of myself in meditation to coach my current self. So it's a really effective way to, uh, to do what you're asking me to do a little more practically in this moment. But I think, uh, there's— it may sound like I'm, um, sidestepping the question, but not a lot, because without the pain and the missteps that I had, I wouldn't be where I am today. So I could say alcohol caused me a lot of pain, which it did, but I'm really thankful for that because I am where I am with clarity now because of that. I think I, if I could, if I could give my younger self one message, and this is what I hear oftentimes from my future self. So the 60-year-old version of me speaking to the 51-year-old version of me. It's okay. It's gonna be okay. Just enjoy it.

What a mic drop moment. Thank you so much for being here. This, uh, I'd love to do this again. This was an incredible conversation. I appreciate you.

Yeah, thank you, Mike. I appreciate you too. Cool.