Kevin Dahlstrom and Mike Brown discuss smartphone addiction, sparked by Mike's 10-day heli-skiing trip that made him quit X. They argue for phone fasts and a framework of concentric circles: improve yourself first, then help family, community, and the world, rather than obsessing over distant crises.
Chapters
Hey everybody, welcome to The Inner Circle. I am Kevin Dahlstrom, and with me as always is my good friend and member of my inner circle, Mike Brown. And you know, the idea here is we're having the conversations that we have anyway. It's just that we hit the record button, and the hope is that somebody out there benefits from something that we say. And today, folks, buckle up because this one could get a little bit spicy and deep quickly, um, this topic came from, um, uh, uh, something that, that, uh, Mike experienced recently that I completely related to. So, uh, and I'll let Mike, I'll let you tell the full story, but basically you went on this epic heliskiing trip that you do every year. I, I see the pictures and I have massive FOMO even though I don't ski. Um, but you know, you went away to this remote lodge with these, this amazing group of people and you came back and you basically told me, I'm feeling like really disillusioned with the world. Like, I don't even know if I want to post on X anymore. And it's something we can all relate to because that happens to me every time, like, I disconnect from the world for a little while. And I think, you know, a lot of us call it like the post-vacation blues or whatever. Like, you gain this new perspective or you're in this new environment. You come back and you're like, oh, I'm back to the same old shit again. I didn't realize how much, how toxic this was. And so Mike, dig a little bit more into like the way that you are feeling and then let's talk about how to process that.
Yeah. I mean, you know, number one, I think everybody should take at least one phone fast a year. Like I, this is, this is a hill I will absolutely die on is we get so addicted to this device in our pocket. And it takes a few days of having your phone away to start to really see like the tentacles that it has on you. Right. And, and look, uh, I love posting on X. Like, let me just start there. Like, I love the challenge of writing and sharing my thoughts in a concise way with the world and seeing if it resonates. And at the same time, I went away to this heli-skiing trip, put my phone away for 10 days. And just had the most epic experience. And I came back and I opened up the app and man, like there is so much negativity. And after taking the break, the contrast was just, it was so stark. It was just like, oh man, like, do I really want to get back into this? And I, and I sort of didn't realize how just being on there. And even though like I've curated my feed the best I can to get rid of a lot of the politics and a lot of the negativity. Like it's creeping in at a level that I actually wasn't realizing how much it was affecting me and getting back on to like post again for the first time. I actually just shut my phone off and put it back in my pocket. And I was like, I'm not ready for this, man.
Yeah. And I think that's something that we need to listen to because it's like, um, uh, death by a thousand cuts. Like you don't realize in your day-to-day life. How much, how deep you've gone into that world and, and how the tentacles have gotten into you. And then you take a break and what it provides is perspective. And that's why, to your point, like it's so important to do a phone fast occasionally. I think international travel in particular, like just getting away from everything you know is the best way to gain perspective. And, you know, look, we have to come back and, and, you know, reimmerse and, and get back to real life. But I think we should listen to those feelings because to me, when you mentioned that, um, after you got back and you mentioned it to me, we said, hey, we should talk about this on the podcast. And I wrote down, um, a word, the word motivations with a question mark in my notes. And because what it made me think about was. Um, it makes you question your motivation for doing things. And you're right, like, it's timely that we're talking about this today because, you know, we're in the midst of this Iran conflict. And regardless of which side of the political spectrum you fall on, like, it's just, it's become toxic out there, man. It's like, there's so much outrage and so much fake bullshit, and it just really drags you down. And it makes me like, I have. I've posted way less on X in the past week than I have in probably 2 years because I've been struggling with this same thing. It's just like it, you know, what am I there for? And like, I'll write something that's really heartfelt and it gets drowned out by all the Iran war bullshit politics stuff. And, um, so, so it really, to me, comes back to like, why, why am I doing what I'm doing?
Yeah. And, and, um, all, all. I'll take the bait and go down the rabbit hole a little bit, because as someone who's been overseas and served, right? The irony, or maybe it's not irony at all, is not lost on me that we elected the guy who was going to end all the wars. And we've done in 2 months, the thing that, you know, might be America's real national pastime, which is we regime change. This is something we've been exporting since the 1940s at a ridiculous level. And as someone who grew up, who watched Top Gun, who watched Navy SEALs, and signed up and went to war, I often wonder if I could go back and tell that 18-year-old version of me, like, someday you might be asked to kill people and it's not going to feel the way you think it's going feel, you know, would he have been able to hear me? And the reality is I don't think so, right? Like, we are— we— the war machine has been turning long before I was 18, and certainly long before for America. Like, this is, this is not new. But here's what I learned in 2008. Uh, I was, I was, you know, it was, it was Bush versus Obama, and, and I remember people being really afraid. My parents, uh, who are Republican, were very afraid that Obama was going to gut the military and put our warfighters in danger. And Obama got elected. And I remember walking down the hall of the aircraft carrier. And I saw a sailor taking George Bush's photo out of the, out of the picture on the wall and putting in Obama's photo. And I walked to my jet and I went to war and I bombed Iraq that day. Right. And what, here's, here's what I learned. That day in 2008 is that number one, regardless of who's elected, the war machine keeps on turning and the cash register goes ka-ching, right? And just this week, right, I log on after coming back from this heli skiing. You know, now we're doing regime change again in Iran, and Trump's just met with all of the defense contractors and ordered to quadruple weapons production. Right. So here we are. You know, the guy who promised no more wars and, and, uh, the war machine is turning and the cash register is ringing once again. And it's, it's just tough to see, especially as someone who's been on the inside.
Yeah. I, um, always love your takes on war and, and, you know, politics, which are two sort of the same thing in a way. Um, because, you know, it's easy to have a hot take on, uh, on war and some of these international issues when I'm sitting in my 5,000-square-foot house in Boulder, Colorado. It's another thing to actually be, as you were, in a fighter jet flying over, you know, Iraq, dropping bombs. So, you know, for me, to kind of tie what you just said together with where we started, which is like this You know, this, you know, we're bombarded on social media with this stuff 24/7. The problem with these phones we have is that it allows us to carry all the world's problems in our pocket. We're aware in a way that we never were before of all the world's problems. And so what are we to do with that? And I think what it's caused a lot of people to do is sort of get the order of importance flipped. People put an inordinate effort into having a take or trying to solve a far-flung problem they don't even understand. And forget that, you know, the change starts at home. Like, yeah, you want to solve the world's problems, start at home. And this gets back to motivation. And so, and this is kind of how I, like, when I get sort of overwhelmed by all the outrage on X, I do tend to retreat a bit and kind of circle up my, the wagons at home and try to focus on that. And I ultimately come back to this idea of like, I talked about motivations of like, you know, what is my motivation? Like when I started writing on X, um, I said that I'm going to write for an audience of one, which is me. And I have to say, I still feel like I largely do that. Like, of course I love getting, having viral posts. I love getting the praise, but, uh, I love having a following because it's, it just, um, turbocharges everything. But ultimately, like, I keep coming back because if I stray from that, it, it impacts me in a super negative way. And I'm going to just, um, tell you, like, but literally I haven't been posting much lately, but I posted something yesterday that I think is very appropriate for this conversation. I said, The market for negativity and misinformation is much larger than the market for positivity and truth. But here's the good news. Each of us gets to decide which market we participate in. Choose carefully because you are what you consume.
Man, that, that, that hits. I mean, it really does. And you know, the, the, the thing for me is you're going to get bombarded anyway. Right. And it's back to a matter of boundaries. Like, am I going to let this affect me? And sometimes the answer is yes. Right. Like for the most part, you know, it's not like X started being negative this week, right. With the war. Like, like, like this is, this is not new for the most part. It didn't affect me.
Right.
Because I've learned how to kind of put up those walls, consume what I want to click on, what I want to. But this week hit different, right? Like I lost a friend this week, another friend. Uh, and this was a friend that served. He's in community with me. You know, he had all of the tools, uh, he had the support and we still lost him anyway. And it was absolutely heartbreaking. And when that happens, like I've got to care, right? Because it's not the people starting the wars who are paying the price, right? It's the people that, that, that go on in service. So it was actually worth it to me to pause a little bit and go, you know what, this is something I care about. And I'm actually going to engage by choice in some of this because it's worth thinking about. It's worth fighting for. It's worth having a hot take. It's worth sharing my perspective. Yeah. But often it's not right. And so what is the threshold for engaging or even letting some of this in? Like I have largely since that day in 2008, been very disconnected from politics because I don't have the illusion of imagining either side is going to be better or worse for the war machine. Right? Like I've been largely disconnected, but sometimes it's worth reengaging. So, so how do you think about that? Like, how do you think about what's worth engaging in and what's worth just scrolling by? Yeah.
I mean, we have a responsibility to to pay attention to what's going on in the world and to be educated and to, um, to help effect change, right? But at the same time, you know, you can't boil the ocean. And so I think the, what I keep coming back to is, um, and it's like a cliché, but, you know, clichés are clichés for a reason, which is like, be the change. Like, you know, you can be aware of the problems at a global level. And you can have a, a, a perspective and want to make a difference. But the biggest way to make an impact is to start with yourself and be the change. Um, start with your family, your kids, you know, how you're raising them. Um, and then secondarily, like, you know, the older I get, the more I believe that there's just no benefit to negativity. The world has plenty of that. Like if you have a hot take on how the world should work, be an example of that. Be a shining beacon of how that should work. It's easy to criticize others and point fingers. It's really hard to live a life that represents the change you want.
Yeah. And this is it, right? Like why you and I both started posting on social media, right? Like, look, man, I don't know everything, but I know a whole lot more than I did 10 years ago. And not only, you know, beyond posting to an audience of one, like I I'm posting to me 10 years ago. Like, I'm sharing the things that I figured out through blood, sweat, tears, and a lot of heartache. And hopefully, I can shortcut someone else's pain. And I think one of those things is, what do I choose to take on? You know, number one, can I affect this? Can I control the outcome whatsoever? If I can't, then, you know, I can either choose to leave or I can choose to accept. Right. And, and for me, like my whole motivation in the first place is again, it may sound cliché. It may sound corny. I'm literally trying to help people. Like, like this is my purpose on this earth is, you know, I think deeply about big life questions about how to live a great life. And I'm going to share those hot takes because I think they actually, you know, I'm naive enough to believe that I actually think that they can help people out there. Uh, and they do, right? And, and you and I both, every now and then we'll get someone that either comments or shares our work and is like, man, this really changed me today. I needed to hear this. And that's it. Like, that's why I keep logging on, you know? And if the point of negativity starts to outweigh those, those points of positivity, maybe I'll take a break. And I think the answer for me, and I'm, you know, thinking about this real time is. The conventional wisdom for posting on social media is you've got to post every day. You've got to show up every single day. I don't think that's true. Like, I'm going to show up when it feels like it's serving me. And if it's not, I'm going to take a little break and reevaluate.
Yeah. So a couple of thoughts. So I'll give a very specific example of, you know, how I think you can have an impact on the world without sort of being one of the crabs in the bucket. is, you know, so I consider myself a Christian now. Um, I caveat that by saying like, um, you know, my brand of Christianity, if you will, is probably different than a lot of people's, which, you know, I could, I could talk for an hour about that, but I do consider myself a Christ follower, a Christian. But that doesn't manifest by me debating with atheists the virtues of Christianity versus Islam versus is there a God or not? I just try to, um, live my life accordingly. And if that's attractive to anybody else, then maybe that comes up in the conversation sometime. And I think, you know, I only bring that up as an example of like, you can apply that sort of thinking to everything, like back to the Be the Change. Like, you know, if I have a hot take on how the homeless should be treated, then why don't I just become a shining example of how it should work? And then maybe others will find that like, oh, that's actually a really, I love the way Mike approaches that. I'm going to do that. And it's tied into this idea that, because you and I have made a lifelong study of like what makes a great life, like everything we ever write is about that one question. And fundamental to that is, is something, um, that Tony Robbins has said for decades, which is you'll never be happy if you're focused on self. And, um, the best way to be happy is to help others. And the best way to help others is not by going, in, in my opinion, is not by going and spending all of your time protesting an issue that's happening 5,000 miles away that you don't understand. It's probably by helping somebody right around you, helping them with whatever their problem is. And if everybody did that, right, the pay it forward, then the world becomes a much better place.
One of the fundamental tenets that I write about often is that there's no true wealth without service, right? The day you become truly wealthy is the day you realize it's not about you, but there's concentric circles of service, right? First of all, change starts with yourself. At the innermost circle of service is serving yourself, like becoming the best version of yourself, eliminating the things that are dragging you down and focusing on the things that make you the best version of yourself. That's number one. The second concentric circle is family. Okay, cool. How am I going to apply that to my family? And yes, it's show, don't tell, right? Like we all know, like kids are watching a whole lot more than they're listening.
Yeah.
Right. I can tell my kid how I want them to act, or I can just show them what acting right looks like. And one of those is a lot more effective. And then it moves into community and it moves into the world.
Right.
And hopefully I'm living in alignment across all of those things. But, you know, again, back to what's happening a lot online, especially with the release of the Epstein files and all kinds of— we're seeing people that have had a lot of hot takes on global change find out that their house is not in order, right? That they're not living in accordance to the values, you know, individually and with their family. And like, why the fuck am I going to listen to someone even if they have an amazing opinion that I agree with? But I found out their house is not in order. Like, I'm gonna dismiss that person.
100%. I think that, that, that concentric circles model, too many people have flipped it and they put all of their focus on global problems. And as you said, they don't have their own house in order. And not only is it like, those aren't the people who I think are worth emulating, but also it's just ineffective, right? You're just not gonna be effective until you, you kind of start that core with yourself and, and work outward. So let's wrap up by, let me ask you in a very real sense, like, so you came back, you were pretty disillusioned about the world. You like opened your phone. You're like, fuck that. And you put it away. But, but now you've probably come back to center a little bit. How did that work? Like, how do you find that center again?
I mean, for me, it's number one, constantly reevaluating, going, okay, you know, is this serving me or not? And, you know, ultimately, right? Like I've made a ton of friends on X. It's, it's served me at a high level. I've found clients, like, you know, my writing makes an impact. So I don't want to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.
Right.
So now I just evaluate, okay. You know, what does setting boundaries and making sure that I'm keeping the thing that, that is serving me. Without bringing in a bunch of negativity. So, you know, what I've been thinking about is, okay, cool. Can I write and post before I scroll? Right? Like that's something that's really helped me. And then B is, you know, can I constantly reimagine my relationship with this? And like right now, maybe it's a little bit too hot. Like maybe the world is a little bit too polarized for me to engage in the way I was. I can actually continue to sort of take a break, put limits on it, maybe still put some writing out in the world, and I'm going to be maybe a little less involved than I was. And then just keep asking, keep asking the question, keep coming back and going, okay, like, is this serving me? Am I ready to reengage? And I think there's seasons, man. And I think you just have to honor yourself every day. If I find myself getting swept up, cool. Let me close the app and go take a walk. Let me close the app and go meditate. And, you know, maybe I write without publishing. Like, there's all kinds of things I think I can do without getting swept up. I don't know. How about you, man?
Yeah, for me, um, similar. It's like, for me, it's always a retreat to the things that really matter. Um, when I find myself getting pissed off at the world and feeling like that nasty feeling in my stomach that you get when you're doom scrolling too much, we know that's not healthy. And so for me, I say like, get super clear on what really matters. And it's, by the way, it's mostly the same for, for all of us. It's like, for me, what really matters to me, my wife, my two daughters, being outside in nature. I love rock climbing and what it represents for me. I like writing for the simple joy of writing. There's a short list of things, and I find that if I retreat to those things and focus on those, The rest sort of melts away, and that's the way to be happy anyway. And I can still be aware of what's going on in the world. I can still affect change in my own way, but it has to start with the things that really matter. Somebody made a comment on one of my posts the other day saying how like, you know, we will scroll social media, we'll spend an inordinate amount of time like following professional sports, you know, we'll looksmax ourselves. We'll do all this stuff. And it's like, it adds up to many hours every week that are just absolute fucking waste of time. And that's just like a, a huge epiphany for me is like, you know, what are you spending your time on? Right. And helping others is obviously, and making a difference in the world is part of that. But like ultimately, how are you doing that? And it, for me, it's always back to the basics.
Yeah, I love that. You, you saw it here first, you know, taking a little break now. We'll, uh, we're, we're gonna start re-engaging. And it's an ongoing experiment. And I think that's one of the beautiful things about the show is like, we don't have all the answers. Like, I don't know exactly how this is going to look. I'm just going to keep experimenting, testing, and then updating my opinion from there.
Likewise, brother. We're works in progress. Appreciate you as being part of my inner circle, man. You've had a huge impact on my life.
And if I could echo that and right back at you, and we will see you guys next time on the Inner Circle.
