The Story You Avoid Is The One You Need To Tell

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, joined with Kevin here as always. We've been absent for a little while and we're back. And we've been absent for good reason. And we both have some pretty major life updates that we will get into. One, my book shipped for pre-orders or is open for pre-orders, about to ship. And Kevin took on a new role in his life. So, we're going to dive into both of those things. But first of all, Kevin, I think, I think where we start with this conversation is the rules. You and I both are notorious rule breakers. And for any podcast, you're supposed to release every single week because that's how you compound consistency. We chose not to do that. How do you think about that?

Well, I mean, if you think back to the, the original idea that you and I had for this podcast was We, I mean, what we're recording right now is the interactions we have anyway. And in fact, we haven't had them for a while and I've missed it, you know, because I love catching up with you. I get so much out of these. And so the, the, we had no rules as a, you know, from the beginning here because really this, this podcast is just hitting the record button on conversations we're having anyway. And I think, you know, I was telling you before we hit the record button today that one of your sayings that I've adopted and stolen is, you know, I reserve the right to be a different person 10 minutes from now than I am today. Like, you know, everything is temporary. And, you know, we reserve the right to change the rules at any time. And we do this podcast because we genuinely enjoy doing it. But when life intervenes, and it doesn't it's not convenient or we don't feel like doing it, we won't do it. And that's the greatest part about it is we're not beholden to it. We're doing this, I think, from a, from a place of purity, which is awesome.

Yeah, I mean, the minute it starts feeling like work, that's a red flag for me. Yeah. And I take the same approach to social media and my newsletter. And, you know, everything that I do is I love this too much to make it a job. And And so, yeah, we took a month off because I was winging together building an airplane while I was flying for, for a book, a book launch.

Yeah. Well, let's, let's get into it because I got a bunch of questions I want to ask you because we actually haven't caught up really since your— I mean, we've talked a little bit. We saw each other at the Baby Bathwater event briefly. I attended your talk. So, I mean, why don't you start by just like, What's going on? Like, bring bring me up to speed on you know you were furiously heads down. I didn't hear much from you for a while. You you launched the book. I saw your talk. So talk about all that stuff, man. What's been going on?

Yeah. So I am sure some of our dozens of listeners at some point have thought like. Mike's been talking about this book a long time. Like, what is this thing actually going to be real? And this is the manuscript that is live now, is my 4th version of the manuscript. And, you know, I shipped a 72,000-word draft to my editor in December and got her comments back. And they were all very positive comments. But I just thought like, man, this is not the book. that it wants to be. It's not the book. It's good, but it's just not it. And in February, the subtitle, How to Want Everything You Have, came to me sort of in a dream. And I was like, that's it. That's the spine of the book. That's what this book wants to be. And so I cut 30,000 words immediately. I ended up cutting another 30,000 words and almost did a full rewrite. I bet only 15% of that manuscript from December remains in what the book is now. And man, I am so glad I did. I'm proud of it. It's resonating with the people who have read it so far. I've been getting amazing comments from the few copies that I pre-ordered and gave to advanced readers. And the process, what I would say is the biggest lesson in this is that I talk a lot in the book and I have talked a lot publicly on social media and on this podcast about external validation and the goalposts that we set for ourselves being empty. Standing on the top of the mountain and realizing that the view up there is empty and holy shit, I'm still the same person as I was. The book has really had the opposite effect. It feels like I thought the business exit would feel like. It feels like what I thought the money would feel like because I know what it cost me to write it. I know the thousands of hours I poured into this manuscript. And I thought I was working on the book, but the reality is the book was working on me.

Ooh. Yeah, that reminds me of something, you know, I've always felt, which is that almost all of the benefits of writing go to the author, not the reader. And people think it's for the reader, but it's actually for the author. And one thing I'll say, because I got to observe you through this process, is you approached this book as, as art and as a craft. And in an era when Let's face it, you know most books these days are written like to monetize an audience basically. Like especially in like the social media world and especially with like within the world of X where we kind of that we kind of inhabit. You know a lot of these guys I think they're they're good intentions but the book is written to basically be like here's my my shtick in book form and one thing that really I was. made me happy for you was when I saw our friend Paul Millard posted essentially like a 2-part review of your book. And Paul's someone like, he's the real deal. Like, we respect him because that dude, if anybody lives what they say, it's him to the extreme. Yeah. And, uh, he basically said the same of you. It's like, this is a book that was— you can tell the craftsmanship that went into it. You can tell the through line, it's different. And so I get chills thinking about that on your behalf, because what high praise. And that's, that's what you look like. You and I talked about this briefly, is like getting a review like that from someone you respect. It's like, that's it. That's all we need.

Yeah, totally. And, you know, for context, like, I don't know Paul well, I just met him on Twitter. And we have interacted on each other's posts a few times. But What really was cool about seeing his post and seeing his review is that was not expected. I sent him a copy because I was like, hey, man, I like Pathless Path a lot. I think you might dig this book. And he read it and then posted that. And yeah, it feels really great to start having people with no dog in the fight. Look, my friends tell me it's really good. That's cool. That's what your friends are supposed to do.

Well, and someone who you know is not going to bullshit. Like, you know, and you're right. Like, you know, getting feedback from your friends is a little different because they always want to be sensitive to your relationship. And to be honest, like, I have a copy sitting back there. I've read a couple chapters, but I've been slow to dig in. There we go. I've been slow to dig in because, like, I thought I knew Mike's shtick. Like, if anybody would know Mike's shtick, it should be me because we've spent a lot of time talking about it. Seeing Paul's review was like, oh, this is different than I thought. It's actually not all the stuff I know. So yeah, I'm gonna— I can't wait to dig in and read the whole thing word for word myself.

Yeah, I appreciate that. And it's, it has been a surreal process. You know, launching, I sent a newsletter and posted on X the other day, you know, I actually wasn't ready to launch the book. I was, I was making line edits. up until the hour it had to ship to the deadline to get advanced copies for my talk in Boulder. And I— it's so cool to— so I launched on Kickstarter on August 18th, so a couple weeks ago now. And look, there's a little gamesmanship in the whole Kickstarter idea. I set my goal at $20K. I was pretty sure I could do $20K. But now we're at like 45, and I think there's a good chance we're going to do well over the next couple of weeks. And it's been beyond my wildest expectations. And it's so cool. There's been a lot of people from various times in my life, or people that I may have lost touch with that have come out and supported the book. And that's also— it's just so rewarding to To see, you know, obviously, all of my close friends and family, like everybody's been wildly supportive. But to just see like, oh man, like I, I didn't expect the response that it's gotten. And I can't wait to see what happens. I really can't. Like, a lot of people have asked like, what do you want out of this? Or what are you hoping to get out of this? And we can talk about that. But It actually feels like it has a life. It's starting to take on a life of its own. And that's kind of what I wanted.

That's, that's awesome. Well, I want to ask you some specific questions. And some of this is selfish, because as you know, like, I've been contemplating writing a book for a while. And I'll be honest, like, watching you go through this process scared me a little bit. Because it's like, that's probably what it takes to write something that you're proud of. But so you mentioned earlier, You know, you were— you thought you were working on a book, but the book was working on you. Like, how do you— how are— how is Mike Brown different on the other end of this, this process?

Great question. Yeah, I mean, one, I think it is important to say that I didn't want this to be a business calling card. Like, this is not a funnel. Like, my intention for this book was, for $20, I can hand somebody Everything I've learned over the last decade, and they can take it and run with it, and never need to sign up for coaching or come to one of my retreats. Like this, this should stand alone as as sort of an artifact of you know the lessons I've learned the hard way over the years, and and that does I think require a different commitment. And in in many ways, you know I suffered in this process. I suffered with the weight of the aspiration of like. I think I can write a really good book and pushing myself and holding that standard of rewriting and burning down and rewriting. And I'll give you one anecdote, which is chapter 7, which is one of my favorites, you know, very close to the deadline, had a story in the intro that I thought was just okay. And I was sort of feeling this itch of like, I'm not sure if this is quite right. And I was sort of racking my brain of like, what's a better story to tell here? And then it just came to me and I was like, oh no, not that. Like, I don't want to write about that. And I ended up writing about my divorce and that was never supposed to be a part of the plan. But it just, it just landed on my heart that like, this is, this is the story that I, that I'm called to share here. And it ended up being one of my favorite passages in the book. And, and it was hard to write. I mean, it was emotional, it was revisiting, you know, some of the pain that, you know, fortunately, I don't, I don't revisit that often anymore. But it required kind of opening that that,

yeah,

that chest of like, man, do I really want to go back into this and feel this all over again? And I'm so glad I did because like, that's the standard. That's the book that I wanted to write.

Yeah. And what you're talking about is vulnerability and it's always uncomfortable. But you know, what I found is the more personal, the more universal, like that story in particular is obviously relatable for a whole a lot of people. And I think, you know, you and I have always said, and I don't think we say this with arrogance, but like, our competitive advantage, our secret weapon, whatever, is just lived experience. I mean, you and I, you're 45, 46?

I'm 45. Yeah.

You're 45. I'm 55. We've both gone hard our whole lives. And we've learned a lot. We've done a lot. And that's what we have to share. Like, I always tell people, and this even relates to like, if you're thinking about writing on X or something, you don't know what to write about, you know, there's one topic you're the world's foremost expert on, and that's your own life, right? And if it turns out like you and I, you've done a lot of stuff that's probably worth sharing. And I think that's, you know, you weaving those stories into your book. It's like, It's one thing to like talk about the principle or the framework or the idea. It's another to say like, here's how I lived this. To me, that's, you know, the more personal, the more universal. Like, like those details matter.

Yeah. And, you know, the balance in writing is I did not want to write a memoir. And to borrow again from Paul, he calls it memoir-ish nonfiction,

right?

Yeah. I only share enough of my story to show, not tell, right? Like, show the reader how I came about these lessons contained in the pages. And it just makes it credible, right? Like, this is not theory. This is applied principles, battle-tested and hard-won, right? Yeah. They cost me something to learn. And Sharing them in that way is— I mean, it's harder than I thought, for sure.

And I have to interject here. I mean, because you and I have talked about this a lot offline, and that's the issue you and I have with a lot of these younger guys who have big followings on X or whatever because they're really good at engagement. And a lot of these guys write a book, but they just don't have a lot of— they're not speaking from a position of experience and having done it. Right. So it's one thing to have to give advice that sounds good. It's a completely different thing to have actually lived it and seen both sides of it and, you know, struggled and suffered like you said you did with this book. So, yeah, I think that's, that's ultimately what makes your book super powerful.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's right. And there's, and there is It's horses for courses, right? It depends on where you are in the path. And, you know, the wave tops sort of advice, I think, meets a lot of people where they are, and those books can be really popular. And, you know, this is sort of almost a different genre. It's like, hey, look, this is that lived experience, and I reserve the right to be wrong. Like, this is a snapshot in time. This is what I believe right now. Yeah. And I'm sure I'll publish another one in a couple years, and it might be completely 180 out. I might debunk all of my own principles, right? But that's the cool part is like, I'm willing to be wrong. Like, I'm not staking everything on these are the right answers. These are the right answers for me at this time based on the sum of my experiences, and I reserve the right to update them at any time.

Awesome. All right, next question. So, and I've told you this before, I think, but A long time ago, I read a book about John Carmack, who is the legendary video game programmer who wrote the game Doom and a few others after that. He built the first real-time 3D rendering engine for video games. Brilliant, like genius-level guy. And something that really— the one thing that stood out for me from that book is he talked about how he would write a version of Doom and he would get to the end of it and he would be so disgusted with what he had created, even though it was amazing breakthrough technology. Yeah. He was so disgusted with what he had created that he couldn't bear to look at it again. So, when he started the second version of Doom, he literally started from scratch because now he knew Exactly the way it should be built. And of course, that process repeats over and over. It never ends. So I've always wondered about this myself, is like when you write your first book, is, is the real benefit that you get from writing your first book that now you know the book you need to write or what, you know, the real story? Or is it— is that partially true, fully true? What's been your experience? Like, did you get to the end of this and say, Oh, I know exactly what I need to do now.

Yeah. In many ways, yes. I think the reality is I could have put out version 2 and then written this one as a second book. Instead, I decided to burn that one down. So, it really ended up being sort of almost writing 3 different books or 4 different books in one.

So, you threw it away before you published in a way?

Yeah. In a way, I threw it away before I published. And so I am thankful that I'm not sitting in a place of cringe right now. I am really proud of it. But I think it's because of that, you know, because I didn't publish the early draft, that I'm— that I am in that place. And as we've talked about on the show before, the real gift, number one, was finding my voice. Like, in writing this, I realized where my voice is the most powerful. And now I've built a replicable process. Yeah. From that, so this took me three years of blood, sweat, and tears. I have no idea what the next one will unfold, but I have a really good idea of what it's going to be, and I think it will be a shorter timeline from flash to bang, from from authoring that book to getting it out in the world because I have that repeatable process. But but B, it has. in many ways, yeah, force the conversation for what the next one is going to be. And a great example is in Boulder. So I'll tell this story. I was slated to speak at 3:00 PM on Tuesday the 18th.

At the Baby Bathwater event.

At the Baby Bathwater event. And I am fortunate enough to be a self-proclaimed professional keynote speaker, but I do get invited to speak a lot and I get paid handsomely for it. And, my goal is always to be the best speaker that organization has ever seen. And, I was approaching the Baby Bathwater event kind of the same way. I'm going to come down here, I'm going to bring down the house, I'm going to bring the pro to professional. And, at midnight the night before, I felt like, you know what, I'm going to burn down this professional talk. I had a discussion with Hollis and he was like, yes, Just do that. Just speak from the heart. And I came on stage and I sat in a chair instead of walking around and doing the pro keynote thing. And I just shared about the process and what it cost me. But in that talk, I shared a story of my combat experience overseas in Iraq. And that was not a story that I planned on sharing. And sort of like the divorce story that ended up in this book, What this really taught me and how I'm different, back to your earlier question, is I've started to really deepen this sense of trust of when I feel called to share and what I feel called to share. It's coming through me. It's not a decision. And again, I didn't necessarily want to speak about the cut. In fact, that story I had only told to probably a dozen people in very intimate settings. And I thought— there was a chance someday I would write about it or share it from stage. And all of a sudden, it was like, today's the day. And I'm feeling called to put this out there. And that sort of has— that same trust has really permeated this process. And I think the gift of writing a book is when you write something like, A, you have to, at least for me, I have to believe it. And then, the universe is going to really test if you believe this trust. And, in chapter 9, I write about the unfolding and how everything that has ever happened to you, you are the sum of your experiences and everything good, bad, ugly, every experience got you to where you are right now. And, in so many ways, the unfolding that's taken place of just all of these seemingly unrelated things just snapping into place once I, you know, wrote the final sentence and shipped it has just been— it's been staggering. And what that's really allowed is this deepened trust of like, it's all gonna work out. There's nothing we can do to not make it work out. And there's nothing we can do to make it work out. It's just gonna work out.

Well, I was, as you know, I was at your talk, and it was awesome. And there was a lot of people crying in that room. And, you know, I've always— I've pointed out to you over the years, like, I've wondered why you don't talk more about your combat experience. And I know that's deeply personal, but, you know, and in a way I respect you for that because that would be an easy flex, like, oh, I was a fighter pilot in Iraq, so here's my book, right? Like, and, um, but you, you never lead with that. In fact, you never talk about it at all. Um, and in a way that makes it even better, like, when you do choose to talk about it, it It's in the right way. It's not as a flex. It's really like, here's what I learned.

No, I mean, it's complicated. My relationship with the military and service and the warrior's path is complicated and it requires me to hold paradox of I experienced a lot of epic shit that a lot of people will never experience like shooting off the front end of an aircraft carrier on a catapult is one of the coolest things a human can do. And, and being in combat and, and coming home and seeing what that costs people and losing friends to suicide, like, it's heavy. And, you know, I've, I've wrestled with how to reconcile all of that over the years, because there are some amazing things that I learned and also some very difficult things that I carry with me because of it. And so I always want to speak with reverence, with respect, with the proper restraint, because it deserves that.

Yeah, well, I think that's, you know, that's true of almost everything. I think that there's two sides to every coin. And, you know, every blessing comes with a curse, every curse comes with a blessing. And I think to hold both of those at the same time, You know, is, is the right way, you know, to do it, to not wear rose-colored glasses, but also not to say this was all negative, um, because there's positives that come from it. So, well, dude, I'm proud of you. Uh, huge accomplishment, and you've already won, you know, regardless. You know, we both hope and believe you're gonna sell, you know, millions of books, you know, in your, in your career, which will span another 20, 30, 40 years. But you've already won. That's the best part.

I feel that deeply. And I appreciate, I appreciate you. And shameless plug, you can get a free chapter of the book at berichnow.com. You can back the Kickstarter from that page. And, you know, if you have been following along listening to this podcast, I think you'll dig the book a lot. Probably my favorite compliment that I've gotten is that it's an easy read. It's, it's, you know, 3, 4, 5 hours. People are finishing it in a few sittings, which is kind of a surprise and delight. So, go check it out if you haven't. I would deeply appreciate your support on the Kickstarter. You'll be one of the first people in the world to get your hands on a copy. And with that, I'm going to turn the mic here, Kevin. You also have a major life announcement.

Yeah, yeah. I actually just posted on X yesterday that I now have something resembling a job, which you know I haven't really had anything you would call a job for. I don't know, a really long time. I guess you know probably around the time I rebooted and moved to Boulder. I mean, and to be clear, I have worked pretty continuously the whole time, but just on sort of projects. And you know, I've done advisory work, consulting work. I started a small business, Bolt Health, which. You know, is doing great, but I'm not involved in the day-to-day of that. And so, you know, I've I've enjoyed having you know control of most of my calendar. I've climbed my brains out. I you know as we were talking before we hit record, you know, I have a pinch me life. So do you. And and you know we we talk a lot, Mike, about you know what's the number one rule when you have a great life?

Don't fuck it up.

Don't fuck it up. Like, and it's, you know, it sounds funny, but it's real. Like, you know, it's easy to chase shiny objects and get involved in stuff because I love business, man. I get excited about stuff and I'm not opposed to making money either. And

turns out,

and it turns out, yeah. And, but it's easy to chase shiny objects and then you end up like, oh shit, what have I done? Like, now my calendar is full. And so, I guess the big announcement is I'm now the chief marketing officer for a company called CrowdHealth. CrowdHealth is—I won't call it a startup because the company's been around for a few years and is killing it. Maybe it's a growth company, hypergrowth company. But as things tend to happen in my life these days, I met the CEO Andy Schoonover. On X, sort of started as a mutual respect thing. Hey, I love what you're doing. Hey, I love what you're doing. You know because I think I mentioned it to you like a year ago. Like there's this really cool company. I'm you know I'm talking to them and I had no preconceived notion about where it would lead. But I concluded for myself and I told Andy, the CEO of Crowd Health. I said, "I think this is going to be a multi-billion dollar company." Like it seems inevitable to me that this is going to be a multi-billion dollar company. And by the way, I think I can help you build that multi-billion dollar company. And so I got pretty excited about it. Initially started working as an advisor to the company, and you know, as it sort of slowly grew, and now, like I said, I've got something that probably more more closely resembles a job than anything I've had for a while. And I'm super excited because you know the bar is high for me. You know, like back to this idea of like when you have a great life, don't screw it up. So the bar is super high. Like if I'm going to put my time into something, there has to be—I mean, let's be honest—there has to be the financial upside. But but that even that's not enough. I have to really vibe with the people and the culture, and so far it's like sort of checked all those boxes. And so yeah, I'm I'm I'm super excited. And you know, my belief is no matter how rich you are. Humans need work. Like, we actually need to be on the hook. We need a little bit of uncertainty in our life, and we need things that you would call work. And I've always had it. I'm ramping it up here quite a bit, but I'm a big believer that you know humans we need to be working. Like the idea of like you know working for a bunch of years or decades, and then all of a sudden one day you do this. weird thing called retirement, where you stop doing anything and watch, you know, uh, you know, TV all day. That's the path to misery, in my opinion.

Well, 2 things. One, you know, I am, I am selfishly very excited as your friend, uh, because I know how you— how much you believe in this product. And, and what you— you know, the conversation you're referring to must have been a year ago at least. You know, sitting at my, at my kitchen table, you know, talking about how excited you were about CrowdHealth. I, as far as to my knowledge, that's long before you, you started talking to them in an official capacity. And so my question is like, what, what makes you so excited about this company? Like, what are you doing here? And, and what's exciting enough to call you out of retirement, you know, to call in the closer and bring out the big guns? Yeah.

Well, I am excited. I get excited about disruptive products, and I I honestly like have in my entire career have always been sort of industry agnostic. I don't never thought of myself as an industry guy. I think of myself as a you know I'm a marketer. I'm an idea guy. I'm a strategist, and I am a student of business models. And I love like when someone builds a better mousetrap. Um, it— I get really excited about that because that's like a marketer's dream when you've got a product that is just clearly superior. And in this case, it's kind of absurd, to be honest, um, because we all know, you know— so for those of you who don't know, CrowdHealth provides an alternative to health insurance. And essentially the way it works is you've got a crowd— it's currently 35,000 people and growing very rapidly— of people who directly fund each other's medical expenses. And CrowdHealth, the company, simply facilitates that. They're essentially the technology provider, manage the community, and it works better than insurance. And so like I was saying, you know, we all hate insurance companies. We all know, you know, my example is I was paying $2,500 a month for insurance for my family of 4. That I rarely used because I don't tend to go to the doctor. And then when I did use it, um, I had to pay out of pocket anyway, either because I use— I tend to use providers that insurance doesn't cover or treatments insurance doesn't cover, um, or it's because there's a $7,000 deductible that you've got to meet before they start covering anything. And so if you do the math on that, you know, that's like $30,000 a year plus the out-of-pocket costs, so like call it $40,000 a year we were using on, spending on health. I mean, in a way I could just, you know, stop my health insurance completely and pay everything out of pocket. But then of course, the reason we keep insurance is because of that threat of something catastrophic, right? Like, you know, you get cancer, you have a major accident, it's a $2 million medical bill, it bankrupts you. That's the gun to our head that keeps us in the insurance system. And That's really part of what crowd health is for. So it's a it's that backstop, and you know there's many examples within the crowd health community of people facing very serious illness, and it's covered by the crowd. And so anyway, I mean you've got an industry that is just broken beyond repair, like to the point of absurdity, and it's so obvious it's not going to fix itself. And so then you've got a product that is. You know, one quarter the cost and way better. And and and on top of all that, like just the privilege of not having to deal with insurance companies is a huge selling point in itself for anyone who's ever dealt with an insurance company. And so, man, and by the way, it's not like CrowdHealth needed me to be successful because the company's already killing it. They're growing at triple digit rates already. Mostly through word of mouth, which by the way, as a marketer, is a huge green flag. Uh, and so I'm really just joining to help become a catalyst for further growth. And, you know, I've done this with a few companies before, and, you know, back to my original thesis, I think CrowdHealth is going to become a multi-billion dollar company. And so it's kind of twofold, right? It's like we're going to have a hell of a lot of fun along the way. And by the way, if we do it, It's going to be a nice financial outcome for me.

Yeah. Well, and I mean, this is alignment, but I know because of our live podcast conversations and many conversations, money's not enough for you at this point in your life. You have passed on offers or opportunities that might look like this from a financial perspective. In fact, maybe even more lucrative. So, so what was it? Okay, so, so you've got a superior product, but, but what, what excites you most about stepping into this role?

Yeah, well, I think, well, first of all, you're right, um, that I can't fake it. Like earlier, to be honest, I've never been good at faking it. I'm just wired that way. And, um, but I did fake it early in my career because everybody has to. You have to, you know, um,

gotta play the game.

Yeah, you gotta play the game to get ahead, and then you earn over time the privilege of not having to fake it anymore, thank God. And so, you know, I'm a big believer in, you know, listening or observing yourself. And like, I mean, you've had this, Mike, is like, you know, when you go to bed at night, what are you laying in bed thinking about? And to use your phrase, do you spring out of bed in the morning, or are you like, oh fuck, I've got a calendar full of meetings and none of them I want to attend? We all know what that feels like. We all know what both of those things feel like. And unfortunately, I think most people don't get to experience the former enough, like the spring out of bed, can't wait to get to work type thing. And so some of it is for me is like that. Like those are the signals I, I look for. in a work opportunity. Because, um, you know, look, at the end of the day, you know, all you've got is the 16 hours that you're awake every day and how you spend that time, right? Yeah. And so you and I are always, you know, looking to optimize that time. And I'm pretty close to optimal, um, but I'm shifting a little bit here. I, you know, I reserve the right to change that at any time, and I'm shifting a little bit here, and it's going to be more focused on work But I'm super excited about it. And some of it is like even coming down to just like, I know that I can be super useful and add value. And that's just a good feeling. Like when you can go build something and be, be respected and add value. I mean, what else is there in life is like, you know, you try to do that for your family. You try to do that in work. You try to do that in your hobbies and that's it.

Yeah. Well, and, um, I think the, the, the paradox here of our, of our rule one, Right? Kevin and Mike's number one rule for life is when you have a good life, don't fuck it up. But I think that the other risk is complacency or being closed off to this is the only way, right? And you've been climbing a lot and you've been dabbling in various degrees of intensity over a few years. Yeah. And I'm really excited to see you really jump into something you believe in. And it may be at the cost of some of your free time. And I think that's a good thing.

Yeah, absolutely. And something I was thinking about while I was eating lunch before we met up today is I'm— I've become aware over time that I am also a guy who sort of needs to have his feet held to the fire a little bit. Like, why haven't I written my book, Mike? It's because I don't have to write my book, you know. But when you like commit to something like being the chief marketing officer of a high-performing company, you got to have your shit together. Like you got it. You're accountable for stuff and people are relying on you. And in a way, that's like it's scary and it can become can feel like a burden. But you know, that balance is what we're all looking for. I think back to my what I said earlier is like. We all need to be on the hook because we all have a little bit of what I've got, which is like we don't quite perform our best unless we're being pushed and we're accountable and our feet are held to the fire. And to tie back to your book, like you had announced to the world for a long, long time, I'm writing this book, it's coming out. And so you called your shot. Now you got to shoot your shot.

Yeah. I mean, and, and Hilariously, this is a pattern that I've lived and I speak about this in the book is that for most of my adult— actually my whole life, my best performances when I pull a rabbit out of the hat at the 11th hour when my back is against the wall, I used to self-sabotage myself into that high performance. Now, hopefully, I have recognized and lived that pattern enough times where I can choose it consciously, but there is still an ingredient of pressure, I think, that does push us out of our comfort zone and elicit that high performance. And that was certainly there for me. And it sounds like it is for you, but the second part of that is that this is about something bigger than you, right? This is a product that is legitimately changing lives, saving people money, disrupting a very broken system that's worth getting out of bed for.

Oh, 100%. I didn't mention that simply Because that's a table stake for me. Like, I'm just not— I like the box number one when I'm looking at an opportunity is like, is this something I care about? And for most things, it's a no, and that's an immediate pass. So I should have mentioned that as the first thing. Like, actually, this is a company that's making a huge difference in the world. But I just take that— that's for granted for me because that's a table stake. Like, I wouldn't even have had the conversation with Andy if I didn't believe and feel very passionate about what they were doing. And, uh, I get very motivated at the idea of crushing these evil insurance companies. Let's be honest. Uh, that's part of it for me.

Yeah. And as it should be. Right. And we've, we've talked on this show about, about potential and, you know, leaving upside on the table. And I, and I do think, um, there's a lot of places where it makes sense to leave upside on the table and not go chasing every shiny object. But sometimes, you sort of start getting that internal call of like,

yeah,

and my gifts and talents, and I'm speaking as you here, like really can drive some impact greater than myself. And that's a call that I think is worth listening to, even if it means giving up a little freedom.

Yeah. And I think to kind of distill this down to maybe a lesson that's applicable to a lot of our listeners Is to me, in some ways, that's the goal in life, is to slowly earn the right to be aligned in everything you do. Right. And it, it, you don't, it's not a God-given, it's not a birthright. You have to earn it. You know, you have to have financial security and you have to have a skillset that's valuable and all these things you have to develop over years and decades. But at the end of that, I mean, it's, I'm not a spring chicken. I'm 55. So you would hope I've done a few things in life. Yeah. And, you know, I've earned the right to be very selective and demanding in the opportunities that I pursue. And I think I posted a comment to something you put on X, said something like, you know, I wait for the right wave and then I ride it. Like, to be honest, as a CMO, it's a lot easier to be— to look like a rock star as a CMO when you've got a company that's already crushing it, right? So now it just becomes of like, can I, um, can I, can I accelerate our growth? Whereas if you come into a situation where it's a company that's struggling, you do have to pull rabbits out of hats. And I've, I've done that and I've tried to do that and failed. And that's not as fun.

Yeah. And so, so, uh, you know, for the listeners out there who may not be at a place quite yet where they can pick They can be as choosy on their wave selection. Right? How do you balance, you know, alignment with earning the right to, you know, get to the position where you're in, where you get to take this golden opportunity? Like, how do you think about that? How would you think about that 20 years ago versus now?

Yeah, well, you know, Mark Cuban has something that he says, and I'm not a Mark Cuban fan necessarily. But He he talks about how being like having a strong financial position enables opportunity because if you're up to your eyeballs in debt, just trying to keep your head above water, you can't be opportunistic. You just have to find ways to have income. But and I'm not talking about being wealthy or super rich. I'm saying like getting your your financial life in order, eliminating debt. Having a little bit of savings allows you to not be driven solely by salary, right? And so you can be opportunistic. And that's really the story of my career is I was pretty opportunistic. Like I was kind of patiently wait, like I said, waited for the wave, patiently wait for the opportunity. When I saw one that checked all the boxes, I'm like, yep, I can do it. And sometimes that involves taking some risk. And so that's why you've got to be in a good financial position. The other thing is like. You know, and this seems like kind of obvious, but build a skill set that the market values highly, right? So like, I never wanted to be involved in a trade that involves just purely trading time for money. And you can make good money doing that. Like doctors and lawyers basically trade their time for money and make a lot of money doing it. But I didn't like how that plays out long term. And so one of the things I always liked about marketing is it doesn't correlate Like, you're— the value of an idea or the success you're going to have with a marketing strategy doesn't correlate directly to the hours you put into it, right? The best idea wins in a way. And, you know, of course, AI is now putting that on steroids in a weird way because AI can handle the execution of a lot of stuff. Ideas are even more valuable now, truly good ideas. And so that's the skill set that I built. And, you know, I've just, I've been able to parlay that over time. So I'd say like, put yourself in a position to be, to have the luxury of being opportunistic, even when there's a little bit of risk involved. You can take, you can place asymmetric bets. But the way you, that your ticket into those opportunities is having a skill set that is valuable.

Yeah. And in many ways, what I'm hearing is that you sort of leapfrogged your way there, right? You built enough financial stability, to take a swing. When that one pays off, now you get to be a little bit more choosy. And that compounds over time to get you where you are now where you can be ultimately choosy, right? Like you are eliminating most options before they're even on the table to get this amazing opportunity.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I can make it really tangible. And this is going to be on a larger scale, but this applies even to people who are earlier in their career. As you know, when I rebooted my life in 2018 and moved to Boulder, I walked away from a seven-figure salary. Like I was a made man. I was guaranteed to make ten or twenty plus million dollars over the next five to seven years, and but I had an epiphany, and I realized that number one, I was miserable in that life. Number two is more money wasn't going to change my life in a profound way. Gaining control of my time would. And so I walked away, but I had a safety net. I had some security, um, which allowed me then to be opportunistic. And which leads us up all the way to today. Like, I, I, as you said, I passed on a lot of opportunities along the way. Um, and now I can, I can kind of shoot my shot.

Yeah. Well, I am, uh, I can't wait to have a front row seat. I'm, uh, I'm, I'm a believer in CrowdHealth. I'm a believer in what you're doing and, and cheering you on. And I just, I can't wait to see where you take this. And, and, uh, I don't know, what are your parting shots here? Like, what, what do you, what do you want to, uh, leave people with as you kind of step into this new chapter?

Well, I think I'll, I'll, uh, one of them is, you know, as we've said a few times during, uh, part 1 and part 2 of this, is that, um, You know, everything is for now, right? Like I I told you, like before I accepted this position at Crowd Health, I would have told you I have the best life of anybody I know, and that I'm pretty darn close to optimized. And then I pivoted a little bit, right? And it's because I always reserve the right to reevaluate that and to change and and to pivot. So. I'd say, you know, don't be afraid to, uh, to change and, and in some ways to like, um, walk away from something that's really good, uh, in pursuit of something that's, that's great. Uh, so I guess that's, that's kind of the whole thing is like complacency, comfort, whatever. When you reach some degree of that, I think there is a tendency to kind of coast. And, you know, the difference between an okay or a good or even a very good life and a great life is that, you know, willingness to walk away from something that's really, really good to strive for greatness.

Yeah. I mean, and I can, I can underscore that with, with writing the book. You know, I, I would have said a few years ago that I found my calling. as a coach. Yeah, like, that was my highest purpose. And in the process of becoming a writer through writing this book, I am really starting to feel that, that maybe my highest calling is being a writer. And if I had been so doubled down on, well, I found my purpose, I've got to protect this at all costs—

Great example.

You know, the opportunity to shift and go, actually, maybe this isn't my highest calling. Maybe this is part of that purpose. But actually, there's a higher purpose even within that.

Chills, dude. And the body— to put it in really simple terms, Mike Brown didn't have to write a book. You had a great life. You would have— you would still have a great life if you had chosen not to write the book. I didn't have to take on a new challenging role where I've got, you know, I'm under pressure, I've got skin in the game. But I choose to do that because That's, you know, that's growth. And we're doing it in pursuit of, of greatness, like of having, you know, what's the next thing? Because even an incredible day-to-day life can, you know, as you said, you can slip into complacency.

Yeah. If you're closed off, if you, if you've decided the minute you decide I'm optimized and I'm not changing anything, you're immediately closed off to even better. Right, and that and that's that's a question that I ask. I ask myself all the time, and I know you do too. Yeah, this feels really great, but what's even better than this?

What's funny while you were saying that, I was thinking like it's almost a bit of a red flag when you say like I'm optimized because that's the moment you become sort of complacent, and that's that that's probably your sign that you need to throw a bomb into your life.

Yeah, I love it. Well, two big bombs in this episode, and. Man, great to be back on the mic with you and rapping and doing what we do best.

More episodes to come, people.

Yeah, we're back in a big way and more episodes coming to you very soon. But, thanks for joining us as always. Buy the book, join CrowdHealth. Both of them will make your life better and we will see you guys next time.