In this episode of The Inner Circle, host Kevin Dahlstrom and co‑host Mike Brown explore why embracing obscure, "weird" passions can be a powerful source of happiness, authenticity, and personal advantage. The conversation begins with Mike’s tweet that declares a "cheat code" for happiness: love something absurd or obscure intensely, using his own devotion to the band The Cranberries as a case study. They discuss how rejecting curated, cool tastes in favor of genuine, uncool interests fosters confidence, vulnerability, and cultural richness. Kevin shares his long‑standing interview question—"What do you do outside of work?"—and recounts a memorable answer about a 501st Stormtrooper fan group, arguing that such esoteric hobbies signal high‑performing, well‑rounded individuals and improve team culture. The duo then connects this idea to the age of AI, arguing that personal, idiosyncratic stories are a competitive edge as AI homogenizes content. They critique the modern hustle narrative and the "I love my work" fallacy, emphasizing that true joy comes from pursuits undertaken for their own sake, not for performance. Practical advice follows: be willing to be bad, try varied activities, observe whether they bring joy, and let them guide you to a community or "tribe". Throughout, they cite personal anecdotes—Mike’s Cranberries wedding song, Kevin’s rock‑climbing community, brown supercars, and Billy Strings’ love of guitar practice—to illustrate how weird passions enrich life, relationships, and even hiring decisions. The episode concludes with a call to listeners to find their own ridiculous hobby as a path to a well‑lived life.
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Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Inner Circle. I'm Kevin Dahlstrom, and with me as always is my good friend, Mike Brown. For those of you that are new listeners, the idea behind this show is that it's the conversations Mike and I have anyway. We're members of each other's inner circle, and we hit the record button and we share with the rest of you in the hope that you hear something that impacts your life in a positive way. Today, I'm very excited to have the discussion we're going to have today because it's kind of an unusual topic for us and a really fun topic. And it's based on a tweet that Mike posted today on X. And the basic concept here is being your own weird self. So I'm going to read from Mike's tweet, which by the way, like most of Mike's tweets, is massively underrated. It doesn't get nearly the distribution or the love it deserves. Um, but that's coming, Mike, at some point.
A beggar enter my own mind, as we say.
No, just keep chopping wood, man. Um, so I'm gonna read this tweet and then I want you to explain a little bit. So, um, this is just an excerpt from what you posted today. So it says, cheat code to be happier in life: love something absurd or obscure way too much. I have a ridiculous outsized love for the Cranberries. They're nobody's favorite band, but they're mine. People try so desperately to curate their tastes and interests to look eclectic and cool. F that. It's exhausting and boring. Be uncool. Be basic. Nerd out on something no one else cares about. So this tweet made me smile from ear to ear, but maybe riff a little bit on kind of what— first of all, what instigated this post, and then kind of explain a little bit of your thinking behind it.
Yeah. So I have, I do have this ridiculous love for the Cranberries and it is, it's, it's so fun, um, because it's so outsized. Like I, you know, Dreams is my favorite song and it was released, I think in '93. And, uh, and I have just loved this song my whole life. It's, it's like super inspirational. And then she just wails with that beautiful Irish accent. And, um, so it's kind of been the soundtrack to my life and ended up being Uh, my driving song. And then when I met Claire, it became our song and then it was our wedding walkout song. And recently she got me tickets to go see a Cranberries cover band. It's, it's, it's the Cranberries music has become sort of the soundtrack to my life. Like when I want to feel good in the car, that's the song I put on. And it's, it's something my friends know about me. They're like, you, you love this band like so much.
It's like a guilty pleasure.
Yeah. Except for it's not guilty because the Cranberries are fucking awesome and they don't, they don't get the love that they should have. Their music is genuinely great. And if you don't love the Cranberries, you should. That's my hot take. But B, and I have a few other things in my life and maybe we can get there, but it's this idea of dropping the mask of what's cool. Like, and look, there are probably plenty of dudes listening to this who love like watches and cars. And that's great. I love cars too. Um, but, or, or like, you know, fine dining, like there, there are these certain categories. Golf. Golf. Yeah. There's these certain categories of things that is like, you're expected to love if you're rich. Um, and, and by the way, you know, every category of people has, has these kinds of things. And I just find so much joy in loving something ridiculous. A, because it's, it's my own and it's, and how I ended the tweet is it's a daily reminder not to take yourself so damn seriously. And that is the actual cheat code to the happier life is like, I give no fucks if people think this band is cool or not. Like, I think they're cool. And there's actually power in that. Like, dude, it doesn't matter if you're supposed to like them or not.
Yeah. And you thinking they're cool is enough. Like, who cares if anybody else does? If it makes you happy, that's sort of the point. Look, I mean, I can and will go on a little bit of a rant about this myself.
Send it.
But I was reminded when I, when I read your post, you are probably old enough to remember the old saying, let your freak flag fly. I don't know if you remember that saying, but that was a saying I used to hear a lot. I heard a lot when I was young. You never hear it anymore. I actually Googled the origin of that, and it actually came out of the 1960s counterculture movement. And it was a line from an old Jimi Hendrix song, Let Your Freak Flag Fly, meaning basically like be yourself. And I'll, I'll make a provocative statement right now that to me it's a huge red flag if something, someone doesn't have a really passionate, esoteric personal interest in something. I don't care what it is. And, um, there, there's something, uh, there's a question that I've asked in every job interview that I've conducted for the past 25 years. Which is, what do you do outside of work? Or what do you like to do outside of work? And it seems like a simple, innocent question, but I find it to be incredibly revealing. And number one, you'd be shocked at how many people struggle to answer that basic question. Or as you said, they give like a default answer. I like to watch the Dallas Cowboys, or I like to spend time with my family. I like to play golf. And those are fine, but I'm looking like for what's that weird thing? That you're passionate about, and I'll give you an example of the best answer I ever received. Years ago, I was interviewing for a customer service manager position at this company I worked for, and this girl comes in, and it's a fine interview. She's got all good resume, blah blah blah. Ask her this question, and she her eyes lit up, and she's like, "Oh, I'm a member of the 501st Stormtrooper Division." I was like, "What is that?" And she whips out her phone. And like shows me more pictures than I cared to view. What it is, it's a group of people across the world who dress up like stormtroopers in, in like very detail-accurate stormtrooper uniforms, and they march in parades and they do gatherings all over. And she was so excited to tell me, and that's exactly what I'm looking for, because to me, people who have that sort of passion for something, and the weirder the better, Uh, I find that that translates into every area. They're just interesting people. And so, um, you know, this is a, this is a huge thing for me. I've found over the years, like, not only do I think it's important, but it's actually a strong indicator of just a high-performing, interesting, well-rounded person.
Yeah. So this is, I think, the meat of the conversation. Like, we could talk about all the weird shit that we love, uh, for another 20 minutes. And, and I'm, I'm very tempted to do that, but, but what is it like? What is it about unapologetically loving something obscure? Do you think that, like, what's the underlying psychology that translates? Like, why, why was it so exciting to hear that she likes to dress up in stormtrooper armor on the weekends?
I think it's because in a way, it's like a, um, it's a form of like being secure in yourself that not only are you willing to talk about this thing that might be perceived as weird, like liking the Cranberries, But I'm joking. But you're being a little bit vulnerable there, but you've got the confidence that you know that you don't care, like you said about the cranberries, like you don't really care what others think. And the other thing is like, you know, it's infectious. That's one reason I like it. I always say that my number one criteria, for example, for hiring people to my teams is that they're accretive to the culture. Like that transcends to me even their job skills. Are you, because culture trumps everything. Are you accretive to the culture? And what's accretive to culture is bringing interesting points of view and passion to the table. Uh, I don't know. What do you think?
Yeah, no, I mean, this is, this, like, let's just, I have no idea what you hired her for, but let's just say it was a copywriting role. Like, I know that later on in her job, she's going to die on the hill of, of some copy that maybe other people don't, don't think or might criticize, but she's like, no, I, I have my own taste. Right. And, and Increasingly, this, I think, is important in the age of AI, as everything, you know, reverts to the mean of AI slop, uh, you know, originality is, is going to be the currency of the future. And, and if you don't have taste and discernment and, you know, the willingness to die on the hill, here's another, here's another great one I love. I love brown supercars. I love, I have a whole folder on Instagram saved of brown supercars. Because everyone universally hates brown paint. It's like, it's like, you know, the redheaded stepchild of, of supercar culture. But I think it's really cool to take an unloved color and maybe it's because of my last name, but take an unloved color and like make a really cool spec on an unexpected supercar. Like it's just, I think that's so cool to have a brown Ferrari because everyone picks red. And it's sort of the same thing. It's like this, this willingness to swim upstream, like regardless of other people's opinions and actually die on the hill of the opinion.
I think you mentioned something that I don't want to gloss over is in the age of AI, all we really have is the things that are personal and our own stories. And you and I have talked about this a lot. Like we always consider that to be our secret advantage as writers, as speakers, as Podcasters, whatever is is that we we are rich in experience. We've gone really hard for a long time, and you know occasionally when I post something on X, and it's very occasionally, thank goodness, I'll have someone that says, "Oh, this was written by AI," and you know it. I hate it when they do that, first of all, and in some ways, I guess like you could say, "Oh, thank you." I mean, I guess that means I'm a decent writer, but the reason that that's easy to refute in my case often is almost everything I write. is like about a very specific personal experience. I posted yesterday about sort of my journey in, you know, climbing really hard, rock climbing really hard as an aging climber and then facing an injury. And like, you know, I guess you could have AI do some help with the writing of that, but that story is mine uniquely. And I think that ties into what we're talking about today is like you're sort of Very specific, odd, esoteric interests are uniquely yours, and that's what makes you special.
Yeah. And this also ties into something that I've been railing against for a long time, is this word obsession that people are obsessed with, pun intended, especially on social media. The conventional hustle bro advice is to be obsessed. And look, I get it. It's a new trendy way to say disciplined or work really hard or whatever. But I think it's dangerous, actually. Like, I think the idea of being obsessed, especially with work, is one, again, it's boring. Like, if the work— if your work is the most interesting thing about you, like, sorry, man, you don't get an invite to my dinner party. Like, I want to know about your weird musical obsession or that you know, you collect Matchbox cars or like whatever, whatever random ass thing you do, because that's just, A, it's, I think it leads to a richer conversation. But, but, you know, as we look to the future with, with AI taking jobs and, you know, the future of work, I think is, is very uncertain right now. And there are going to be a lot of people that lose their purpose and lose their meaning, especially if we move to a post scarce society. Uh, you know, for the first time in history, human capital is going to be divorced from, uh, your ability to survive. Um, I'm an optimist. I think, I think that we are headed for, for a post-scarce world. And so what's left in that, in that scenario? It's, it's culture, it's art, it's, it's literature, like it's, it's interesting things. And, and so You know, I think the only way to not lose our humanity in, in that type of world is to have varied interests and, and to dive deep on things that, that may seem, you know, meaningless or inane to other people.
Yeah, you touched on what I call the I love my work fallacy. And you hear that a lot from guys who are successful in the business world. Well, my work is my hobby. I truly love my work. And the truth is 99.9% of them are kidding themselves. Like, There are the Elon Musks of the world who are freaking building flying cars and rockets and stuff. Yeah. Who truly are obsessed with their, their work. Those are the extreme outliers. And most people, um, only say that, say that they love their work because they don't know anything better. And that's, that's actually very, very sad. It's like a lack of imagination, lack of exposure to anything more interesting. And one, one thing I want to add too, to this discussion about around like, Finding that esoteric interest, because I, I do wanna pivot to like our thoughts on how you cultivate your, your own interest. 'Cause I think that's something a lot of people struggle with.
Yeah.
Um, but, but when you find your thing, for me it's rock climbing. For you it's, well, there's a bunch of things for you. You, you know, brown
supercars,
mountain biking, supercars, cranberries, whatever. Yeah. But when you find your thing, you find your tribe. And I had a thought, I had kind of an epiphany the other day. I realized that all the people who I would consider part of my inner circle, zero of them come from my work. And I think that's a very, very good thing because that naturally results in, number one, diversity, but also probably more shared values. Because one thing I've realized about climbing is, yes, my climbing friends and I, we both like rock climbing. That's the obvious thing. But really, What it's an indicator of is like we share at a deep level the same values. And that's ultimately what you're looking for is like people who sort of see the world in a similar way as you or, or partially similar way. And so find your thing and find your tribe. I wanna pivot though to what a lot of people may be listening to this and thinking, cuz I've heard this, I've had people literally tell me this directly, is How do I find my version of what rock climbing is to, to you, Kevin? And I, I'll tell you one story. Um, I used to work for this really big company. The CEO who was worth, let's just say, well into the 9 figures, 9 figures would be $100 million. So well past that, he came to me one day and he said, hey man, how do I find a hobby? Like, I have no hobbies. I, I work all the time. I go home. from work and I watch ESPN for a little while and go to bed. You seem really passionate about so many things that you do in life. How do you do it? And he sort of stumped me because I didn't really have a great answer for that. So I'm going to pause. I have, I do have some ideas on that, but I'll pause there. I want to hear if someone asked you that question, Mike, how would you answer it?
The first thing I tell people on this is be willing to be bad at something But not just in the hopes that you're going to get better someday. Like, be willing to be unapologetically bad, like, for the life of the project, whatever it is. And this is, I think, correlated with the joy piece is, you know, because we live in a society that values high performance so much, we love the rags-to-riches story and the proverbial rags-to-riches. You know, I started mountain biking, I was terrible, but now I'm a world champion. Which is like, that's cool. We love the hero's journey. But if you start with the intention of being world-class or really good at something, it makes it another job. And so, it kind of sucks the joy out of this. And by the way, I mean, I did this for years. I have a personal experience with this. My brother was a pro triathlete and I thought that was really cool. So, I started doing triathlons so I could become a pro. And literally from day one, the day I signed up for my first triathlon, I took my brother's, you know, training plan, and I trained with him and like, started training to become pro. And I never quite got my pro card. I was knocking on the door when I quit. But I quit because it sucked. Because I, because I recognized that there was, there was really very little joy in it for me, because I was training so hard because the I was so focused on the outcomes. I was so focused on where I placed in the race. And, uh, it just, it just really sucked any joy that you would get out of having a ridiculous esoteric hobby. And, um, and now I try to go full opposite of like, what, what thing can I pick up that, uh, I'm never going to be good at and not put that pressure on myself?
Yeah, I think that's really powerful. It's like, I think there's a tendency we try to translate, like the, in some ways the work world into our personal life and make it all about performance. There's a, a great quote from a famous climber named Alex Lowe. He said, the best climber is the one having the most fun. And it, it really is true. I, what we're talking about is finding that thing that you do for the pure joy of it. You may suck at it. Now, there's nothing wrong with striving to get better because I do believe like Pursuit of mastery in that craft is a very rewarding thing.
Totally.
But it's like, it's like me in rock climbing. Like, you know, I'm a pretty good rock climber after 30 years of doing it. But I'm by no means like among the elites and that's totally fine. Like I have the same, just as great an experience, if not better, because I have no pressure to sort of perform, you know, for social media or anything else like that.
Yeah. I don't know if this is a great example, Kevin, because 5.13 puts you pretty elite in the rock climbing world, especially at 50+. But the thing that I see in you, and I'll just be a mirror and reflect back, is your love of rock climbing comes way before the performance aspect of rock climbing. And now, because you've been doing it so long, the mastery shows up and it starts to make sense why you're climbing at such a high level. But, but I, I'm gonna go out on a limb and I would say like when you started, you didn't start to become elite.
Correct. No, I was bumbling around and honestly, like in, I was having just as much fun then as I am now that I'm performing at a much higher level, which, which sort of makes your, your point. And I think that's the, the overarching point here to me is that don't, if, if you find that you're having to kind of fake it or force it, that's a red flag. You know, My answer to that question that the CEO asked and that many people have asked me is I don't know any other way other than to try things that sort of catch your interest. And I think you have to give it a little while. I mean, nothing's necessarily fun the first time that you do it. Try it for a little while, see if you connect with the community, and then observe yourself. And what are you thinking about in your quiet moments? You know, like a rock climber like me, We're, we're impossible to be around in some ways because that's all we think about, all we talk about at dinner parties. It drives my wife nuts. Um, but it's a, it's an indicator that it's something you care about. It's just sort of try things and then observe yourself.
Yeah. And, and is, you know, the Marie Kondo principle, right? Does this bring joy? Uh, and, and if the answer is no, either one, am I putting too much pressure on myself? Because you might be just stifling the joy out of whatever the hell it is that you're, you're trying to do. Um, but B, like, do I actually like this? And, and if so, you know, again, I, uh, my, my son used to love to go to the skate park and there was this guy who was, who was older than me and he was kitted out and he was rollerblading and he was the only one there rollerblading. And I happened to rollerblade when I was in like junior high or something. I was, I was like, damn, like, should I buy some rollerblades and get back into this and be the hilarious old guy at the skate park? But, you know, there's no, there'd be no possible way for me to be a good rollerblader or even a decent rollerblader at this, at this point in my life. And like, maybe, maybe I should just pick it up and go do it. Right. Because it's back to the point is like, be uncool, love something that nobody else loves and see, like, see if you can tap into that joy source because, you know, on a more serious note, like we are I think missing joy as a value in our, in our society, right? Like everything has to have a purpose. Everything has to have a performance aspect. And, and doing something for the pure unadulterated joy of it, I think is, is starting to become a lost art.
And when you find that thing, the beauty of it is through good times and bad, you always have something to look forward to. I could have something really bad happen in my personal life. Something really bad happened at work. And guess what? This weekend I'm going to be on the rock having fun. It's super important. One more story and then we can kind of wrap up. I saw an interview recently with Billy Strings, who many of our listeners will know is like, you know, blowing up right now. He's filling arenas. He's probably one of the top guitarists, living guitarists in the world right now. And the interviewer asked him like, you know, if you weren't touring so much, what would you be doing? He'd be do— he was like, man, I would love to just be able to practice 12 hours a day. And I was like, wow. I mean, Billy Strings has been playing the guitar since he was like 6 years old. He's a virtuoso and all he wants to do is practice playing guitar. That is true love, man.
Absolutely. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great thing to reflect on. So, uh, you know, if you're listening, if you don't have a hobby, if you're, if you're looking for more joy in your life, go find something ridiculous. Go find your cranberries. Uh, because I can promise you, It is, it is a path to a life well lived.
Awesome. Thanks, Mike.
We'll see you guys next time.
