In this episode of Inner Circle, host Mike Brown and guest Kevin Dahlstrom explore the challenges of building and curating a meaningful adult friendship network. They argue that friendships should be intentional, based on values alignment rather than mere proximity, and that the process requires a slow, deliberate approach. Key concepts include the idea of an "equal energy exchange" where contributions need not be identical but must balance over time, and the use of explicit contracts to set communication expectations and reduce obligations. They discuss the natural arc of friendships—seasons, beginnings, middles, and ends—and the importance of setting boundaries and letting relationships end gracefully when values diverge. Community hubs such as Mike’s house, founder dinners, and the Baby Bathwater group serve as physical spaces for cultivating connections, while shared activities like rock climbing provide a values‑aligned entry point. The conversation also covers practical tactics: writing down your current inner circle, identifying gaps, actively seeking out people who challenge you, and treating friendship building like a funnel—"kissing frogs" before finding the right fit. Throughout, both speakers emphasize that depth is not measured by length of time, that you must make room for new friends who match your current interests, and that your vibe attracts your tribe.
Chapters
Hey everybody. Welcome to Inner Circle. I'm here with Kevin Dahlstrom and I'm Mike Brown. And the whole point of the show is to have the conversations that we would have anyway behind closed doors and just share those with you guys. Today, that's actually what we were doing. We were diving into a conversation and we went, should we just hit record? So here's the setup. I'm really excited about this one. And it's essentially, how to make friends as an adult and more specifically how to curate your friend group, how to make time for your friend group and like, how do we decide how to spend time with people? So Kevin, I'll let you kick it off from there.
Yeah. I mean, everybody's heard this saying, you know, you're the average of your 5 closest relationships and it's a popular saying. It's a cliché because it's pretty true. Like we rise or fall to the standards of those around us. And you know, the, the name of this podcast is The Inner Circle for a reason. It's like your inner circle is one of the most important things in your life, and you should be super deliberate about curating it. And personally, it's something I struggled with for a long time is this question of how do I find true peers? How do I curate those relationships? What do I do with the rest of my relationships, you know, my friends from childhood and so on. So it's a very meaty topic and maybe a good way to kind of get into this is you were actually telling me a story about someone you hung out with at an event over the past few days. And you, you said to this person, we should actually like be friends. And what does that mean though?
So, you know, number one, um, I think this is one of the hardest skills that I've learned, uh, as an adult or, or kind of post-midlife chrysalis or crisis, but it's a skill because there's a lot of cool people out there, right? But we have finite time. Everyone knows, we always say, "Man, we should really hang out," right? And then it's a year later and you see that person again and you're like, "Oh, we didn't do it." So, how do you do this? For me, I think the criteria has to be fair energetic exchange, right? So, we're both equally talented. We both have perspective. We both thought deeply about topics. And my sort of criteria, Kevin, is existential questions. Like, this is the shit that I think about all the time. And I think this is how you and I became friends. So, if I've connected with someone, let's say 2, 3, 4 times in a row, that's sort of dating. And then it's like, okay, now maybe I want to start bringing this person into my inner circle, right? But the biggest lesson I've had to learn is moving slowly.
I think you hit on something really important that is, is the reason I struggled with my inner circle for so long is this idea of equal energy exchange. And an equal energy exchange does not mean the same energy. It just means equal. In fact, one of the things, so, you know, over the years as I was trying to build my inner circle, I tried out all these like business peer groups. Like I'm not gonna say the names of 'em, but we've all heard of them. They're bougie. They're, it's an honor to be invited to be a part of these things. But what I found was like, I was surrounding myself with a bunch of guys who were a lot like me, brought the same things to the table as me, at least in the business world. And that wasn't really what I was looking for. I was looking for people who made me think differently and complimented me. And, and then I had another category of, of people in my life who, most of whom were like friends from childhood and whatnot, who, um, I felt like the exchange wasn't equal. Like I was bringing way more energy. I was always the instigator, always bringing more energy. And so to me, it's like the two components are, you know, is there an equal energy exchange? Just like, you know, they can bring different energy, but you know, does the equation roughly equal out over time? And then, um, secondly, you know, are they, um, challenging me in ways that they see blind spots I don't see? Do they challenge me in ways that I don't think about? Do they make me think differently about the world? Um, Yeah. So, um, I've been really deliberate about that. Uh, in fact, you know, you and I, you just got back from a Baby Bathwater event. That's where you were. Um, I had to miss it because I had COVID. I, you can probably hear in my voice, I'm still struggling.
Such a bummer.
It's such a bummer. But I often say, and this is gonna sound like a shameless plug, but it's really just the truth, is joining Baby Bathwater is the most impactful thing I've done in the past 10 years in that regard, because it exposed me to a lot of people who think in very different ways, but also bring a lot of energy to the table. But let me, let me then steer this now to something that was my first reaction. You said you met this ama— guy at, at this event. You've talked to him a few times. He's, he's amazing. I know him also. He's amazing. It's one thing to say, let's be friends or let's be close friends. It's another thing to actually carve out space in your life. So how do you think about that? Like this idea of like, you know, um, there's a— well, there's a cost to it too, right? Like we're all, we're all busy. We all have full lives. We have family, we have work commitments, we have personal stuff we want to get done. Like, how do you, how do you fit someone into your life?
I can't claim that it was intentional. It kind of just happened this way, but Building this house has actually been one of the greatest gifts because it's become the community gathering place. Like, we have founder dinners a lot, and it's sort of become, you know, again, unintentionally, I mean, we imagined we might have people over when we designed our house, but it's kind of become the default for where our crew hangs out. So literally with this person, I can just add them to the list. And let me give you a couple things that we talked about. All right. So, there are two kind of contracts that I make with my friends. And by the way, I talk a lot about when it comes to relationships, explicit versus implicit contracts. Like, I want to make the agreements explicit upfront so that nobody's confused and nobody's butthurt and no one's feeling like, like, you know, how do we actually do this? Like, I want to, I want to make it explicit. So here's what I told this guy. I said, number one, when it comes to communication, right? I don't want to have any obligations. So, so when it comes to texting back and forth, like some days I might text you 50 times and then you might not hear from me for a month, right? And as long as that's cool with you, like the next time we see each other, we're going to be all in and homies, right? But like, I can't deal with, "Hey, man, I texted you the other day. You didn't text me back." Like, that stresses me out, period. So, first of all, you know, the flow has to be free and clear and cool. And like I said, we might talk a lot, we might talk a little. And if I ignore your text, it's because I'm just doing shit. And, you know, it means nothing about you.
Yeah.
Number 2, we all travel a lot. Right? So I'm going to put you on the list for invites and you are never obligated to show up, right? And if you miss 10 invites in a row, like no harm, no foul. Let me know if you still want to be on the thread, but I'm not going to hold it to you. It's like, I want to make this as easy as possible for you to be my friend with no pressure and no obligation. Because what happens, Kevin, is the more successful you become, people need things from you, right? And they may not even know they need something from you, but all of a sudden there's all of these pulls, right? Uh, you know, if you start to build a following online, the more money you have, people are looking for you to invest. They might be looking for you to promote stuff. I want my friends to have a space where they can just be themselves without anybody needing anything from them. So I'll pause there.
This idea of being explicit about what the relationship does and doesn't look like is really important because I think what makes us all hesitant to have a huge circle of friends is the obligations that come with it, right? And the expectations. And that's been a big lesson for me. Um, you know, there's a saying out there that some relationships for a day, some are for a season, and some are for life. And I think even within that, You know, the depth of the relationship doesn't necessarily have to correlate to time. Like you don't have to be, you know, you and I don't have to get together and have beers every week to have a really deep, meaningful relationship. It can be sporadic. Um, I have to tell this quick story. I had a bizarre thing happen one time and I used to do some work in Hawaii. And one time I went for a hike and I ended up hiking alongside this older woman. She was in her 60s. And was one of those like really mystical spiritual types. And we just started chatting and it ended up going very, very deep, very quickly. And we ended up chatting for like a couple of hours while we were hiking up to the top of this crater actually. And then, um, when, when things, when, when the hike kind of came to an end, there was this natural like, oh, we just had this deep conversation. I felt like there should be some obligation, like, oh, we should stay in touch. What's your Instagram? Whatever. And she said something that kind of like knocked me onto my ass. She was like, um, no, we don't need to stay in touch. Uh, you know, we had a great relationship. It was what, or, or great chat. It was what it was. And it can just be that. And I was like, wow, she's actually right. Like I could, not all of my relationships, I don't have to collect every single relationship into this ever-growing circle. It's fine if some have an expiration date and some don't.
I think this is something that we get wrong, is that we tend to prioritize length of friendship as how we rank our closest friends, right? But the reality is that I've started to shift it as like every friendship has a natural arc, right? Sometimes people come into your life, they burn really brightly, and then they fade away. Sometimes it's a slow burn over many years, but every friendship has a natural beginning, middle, and end. And we are very bad at knowing when the end is, right? Um, but the reality is like people are always changing, right? The only constant is that we're all changing all the time. And to imagine that I'm going to be in the same season and have the same interests and that the friendship is still going to be nourishing the same way it was 20 years ago is wild. Like, and this doesn't mean, it doesn't mean anything about the the other person, right? Like, I've lost touch with a lot of military guys that were my best friends when I was in the squadron. It doesn't mean anything about them or anything about me, right? It's just that we had this shared experience at that time.
Yep.
Uh, you know, being overseas, being deployed, like, we were really good friends. Now we live totally different lives, and no harm, no foul, right? And the other thing is, like, I've got to make room for new people that share my current values, my current interests. And, uh, you know, you can't keep in touch with everybody. Right. And so I can honor those childhood friends. I can honor my high school friends. I can honor my military friends. And like, you know, we, we still might stay in touch once a year, but like, that's not going to be my best friend at this point in my life. Yeah.
I think that's a really important thing to embrace. I think that, you know, maybe the best takeaway so far is what you said around like the length of friendship is not the measure of depth, uh, or of importance. And the classic example, which you mentioned, is childhood friends. And like, that's something I struggled with for a long time is like my best friends from childhood. You feel like that's really important and it is, and you want to stay in touch, but at the same time, you've grown dramatically apart. And like you're very different people now. And frankly, if you met today, you probably wouldn't be friends. And, and just recognizing that that's okay. Like two, two thoughts at the same time, right? Like, like one is that I, I still want them to be some, play some role in my life. I wanna stay in touch and all that, but also they're not gonna be the guys I go on, you know, week-long retreat with because I've evolved and grown and I have a different circle of closer friends now.
But the last piece of this, I think, is learning how to set boundaries and let people go gracefully. Right. So, and this is something that's, that, you know, I've dealt with as I've become more intentional. Right. So, so number one, you know, when I was in the oil and gas industry, I felt very lonely. You know, I just, that was especially for people who know me now, like, like, you know, there's not a lot of shared overlap and values with the, with the good old boy Texas club. They've got their deal. I'm more, more of the meditating snowboarder type. Like there's not a lot of big Venn diagram overlap. And I came to Baby Bathwater and also totally changed my life, right? There, like I've, I met people that thought differently, that had done things that, you know, it was totally mind-blowing. But now I've got this group of 150 people and like, how am I going to select an inner circle? Right. And necessarily that means I let some people in and then found, let's call it, you know, down the road, 6 months, a year, whatever it is, is like, oh, maybe we don't overlap as much as I thought we did initially. Right? And this is, I think, where people get really stuck is like, oh no, like we hit it off, we shared some values, maybe it was business. We were, you know, talking about business, and kind of found out we like, we don't have as much in common, or even worse, like, maybe we don't share the same values. Like maybe I see people doing, conducting themselves, conducting their business in a way that I wouldn't want to do. Like, how do we separate? This is really tough, right? Like setting these boundaries. But I've had to learn just because we we started down the friendship road, I don't owe you anything. Right. That one, that one is tough. Like, how do you gracefully unwind? I'm sure you had some similar experiences.
Well, and yeah. And like, when you begin to set boundaries, one thing that I've had to learn is that the other party may not always understand the boundaries. And that's okay too. I mean, the boundaries are for you. and, um, and you know, they may want more from the relationship, may not be comfortable with the boundaries, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't set them. One point I want to make too is I think, you know, cause, cause this issue of like, I mean, again, this is why we called the show The Inner Circles. You know, this is a lot of people think about like, gosh, I'd really like to build a bulletproof inner circle. How do I do that? And if you think about how, um, most people make friends, it's usually a couple things. It's like proximity, like just people you happen to be around in your neighborhood or like the places you go. Or a lot of times it's through work because you spend so much time at work. I mean, outside of like your family at home, that's the place you spend the most time. And what I found over the years is I struggled with that because I was like, these, you know, yeah, like some of these people are nice people. I enjoy hanging out sometimes, but we don't share the same values. And I think when things really begin to change in a positive way for me is when I started like seeking values alignment. And today my friend group and my inner circle comes from really two places. It's rock climbing and it's the Baby Bathwater group we just talked about. But the point is you've gotta be, you've gotta go seek out the those people. I think in a way it's like we tend to be a little bit lazy with our friendships and like it just happens to people to be the people that were around or that, that come into our life. And, um, that's not the best way to curate an inner circle. Yeah.
And I mean, uh, final plug for Baby Bathwater, you know, I, I've also done a lot of the groups. I think it's important to find one that not only is there a common interest, but it actually matches your values. And for me, The thing that makes Baby Bathwater unique is that yes, we're all there because we have a business. That's the common thread, right? But almost nobody talks about business that much, right? Uh, it, it really is. I mean, the other night at dinner, I was having a conversation with some really cool folks about the fundamental nature of reality and, and free will versus determinism. And like, that's the stuff I want to talk about. Like, that's what really lights me up. And, and yeah. We all have businesses, but that's actually the common thread that, that unites us is interest in the, in the fabric of reality.
Cool subject, man. Hopefully there's a few things we said in here that will help, help people out. I mean, you know, I would just say that, um, you know, to anyone who's listening, just be deliberate about your inner circle. Like literally sit down, get out a piece of paper and write down like your friend group and who you consider to be part of your inner circle and think about why and where the gaps are. And then if there are gaps, you feel like something's missing, be proactive about it. Don't just curate from the existing set of, of relationships. Like go find the people that you want to emulate, that will challenge you to grow, that you want to be part of your inner circle.
Yeah. And, and, and the last thing I would say is like, A, um, people ask a lot of times and, and clients ask me all the time, a lot of times, uh, they are lonely and they go like, how did you build such a great friend group. Number one was deeply intentional. Like I said, this is what I want. I want people that share my values as a parent, as an entrepreneur, you know, as a thinker, as a philosopher, like this is something I want. And I went and I built it, right? And I built it in two ways. One, by building this house and throwing parties and throwing dinner parties. Like I had to kiss a lot of frogs. Like I had to have a lot of people come through and be like, okay, that's not quite a fit. That's not quite a fit. Like, This was an actual process, right? Like this didn't just— I didn't just say I want cool friends and like magically overnight they show up. Like this has been a like 5, 7, 8, 9 year process now. And then two is your vibe attracts your tribe. Like be someone who's interesting and interested, right? Like, like if you're not interesting, why do you think interesting people want to hang out with you? Yeah.
Final thing I'll say, which is very related is, um, you know, I mentioned that rock climbing has sort of been the source of, of a lot of my closest friends. Um, and it goes way beyond obviously just the fact that we're climbers. You have to, it's, it's, it's really a, a spiritual connection that you have. But to your point, over the, the 27 years I've been climbing, I have climbed with, I would guess, at least 250 different people and probably 3 of those. I would consider to be close friends. Right? So it just takes, like, there is a kissing frogs aspect to it. It's, it's very freaking hard to find people you truly connect with at a deep level. And so it just does take effort and it's almost like a sales funnel in a way, right? It's like you have to put a lot of people in the top of the funnel to get a few out the bottom.
And the last piece is, uh, and I think we can end it here, which is just because those 247, right? Weren't your best friend. They're someone's best friend. And if you're forcing this friendship, you're actually keeping them from finding their best friend.
Good point. Good stuff, man.
Great.
Hope it's been useful.
All right. All right. We'll see you guys next time. This is the Inner Circle.
