Never Build a Business Until You Understand This (Keith Roberts)

When was the moment when you said, holy shit, this isn't working?

It was hard to realize this is not going to be the fruitful life that I had envisioned. As the company grew, it created this machine that ate money. Keith Roberts is a transformational leadership speaker and founder of Zenman, where he spent 24 years creating digital solutions for major brands like Frontier Airlines, RE/MAX, and the Lumineers. Author of The Zen of Business, he blends ancient wisdom with modern leadership strategies, delivering powerful, story-driven keynotes that help leaders navigate change with intention, clarity, and purpose.

What was your first big break, man?

First big break ended up being the biggest backfire. It was over $100,000 to walk away. I realized, like, man, when you get that shot, you can't fuck it up.

I mean, I just can't imagine the emotions getting a big shot and then having that rug pull.

I disappeared off the planet, and that was probably the moment when it actually stopped being fun.

What were those early entrepreneurial experiences like?

Failed tremendously. Yeah. My initial relationship with money wasn't the healthiest relationship. I've always been great at making money, but I've always been slightly better at spending money. No matter what you have going on. I mean, I had foreclosure notices that were on my office that I would take it off the door before an employee saw it. So they didn't know how bad things really were. But there was somebody in a hospital that would cut off their left arm to trade problems with me.

Now we'll go back to the question that you stole from me. What would you go back and tell the version of yourself that was in the thick of it in the agency? I think, um, welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations with founders about money, meaning, and what makes a truly rich life. Today I'm joined by Keith Roberts, founded Zenman, uh, creative agency, ran that for 20 years, anywhere from mom and pop all the way to multinational corporations. Sold that a few years ago. Now you're writing, you're speaking and, and creating content. Uh, and, and I'm a huge fan. I'm, I'm really excited for this. For this conversation, having traced what I think is probably quite similar arcs. So, so Keith, I'd love to start at the beginning and if you could just share a little bit about your first memories around money, how you grew up with money and maybe how those shaped your beliefs.

Yeah. I mean, to be quite honest with you, my initial relationship with money, and I've struggled with my whole life, wasn't the healthiest relationship, meaning I've always been great at making money, I've always been slightly better at spending money. Um, and so it's— I, I think my relationship spawns from, uh, my mother was actually, when she was a child, so poor she was taken away by welfare with her brother and sister. And observing how that same experience impacted my uncle, my aunt, and my mom completely differently, and how they handled their relationship with money.

Just kind of take me back to, to your childhood. Where did you grow up?

And, and, you know, yeah, Um, grew up in Phoenix, Arizona. Uh, was there from like age 6 to 19. Um, yeah. So just like literally baking in that inferno of the Valley. Yeah.

And, and, you know, as, as a child, were you entrepreneurial? I mean, it sounds like you always had an affinity for making money. How, how did that start to shape your path?

Yeah. I mean, it, it's funny that I remember 7th grade being when I learned what the word entrepreneur was. And, you know, I'm 53, not to give too much away, but back then that was not the safe path. And I remember it was an economics teacher saying, you know, an entrepreneur is somebody that, uh, does their own thing and they're probably going to have multiple bankruptcies and almost all of them fail. And it was very different than the perspective today, but it resonated with me. I was like, I, I still think that's me. Um, and my first business was Magic Moments Photography, which was a, a photo company I started when I was still in high school doing like high school portraits and stuff. Yeah.

And what were those early entrepreneurial experiences like?

Failed tremendously. Yeah. Like honestly, just, hey, I started a business, so we need cell phones. And I'm talking like, you know, the real—

the old—

yeah, Zack Morris cell phones. And we did not need cell phones. We just literally like— I think one of the biggest challenges for me in the decades of business was switching from seeing my business's money like Monopoly money and seeing it as my money. And so I think even early on it was easy to just, well, there's something in that account that's one of the things that I need. What are the things that, even when I had the agency years later, you know, the pinball machines and the vintage Lego collections and the art that you justify as this will help me sell. But I think it's really getting back to the ego. Like it's, that desire that's causing suffering.

And where do you think that easy come, easy go attitude came from?

Um, it just— it's always been easy for me to make money, and so there hasn't been this— I've never had a scarcity mindset, right? There's always been this abundance that like things will work out, and, um, just sort of had that Ferris Bueller life that like— but I'll say this, it's only because when you need it, you bust ass, right? It's not like you sit around and hope that the stork is going to drop off an envelope and it's going to make everything better. When times were the worst is when I've had to like literally work the hardest.

I can totally relate to that. Um, you know, there's an agency that comes with that abundance, uh, but you know, I think that so often, especially, you know, talking about modern money mindset. It's all about if you can just have abundant thoughts, you know, champagne is going to fall from the heavens and all your problems are going to be solved. I could have used a little scarcity. I could have been a much better steward of my money.

Yeah.

And it sounds like, you know, a similar experience. So it's almost ironic that being good at making money can almost kind of cause this poor relationship.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the one— if I could go back and like share one piece of wisdom with my 13-year-old self, it would be compound interest, right? Like the benefit of just socking something away as early as you can start. You know, even my 14-year-old is doing it now and he's doing the math as to if I'm going to be a mechanical engineer and this is my path, at what point will I be financially free? And, you know, his vision is his 30s, which I love. And yeah, he's going to get there.

I love that. And, uh, you know, you stole a question from, from later on, uh, you know, what advice would you give your younger self?

But I'll have more.

Perfect. Probably, probably could have used— if you're anything like me, could have used a lot of advice coming up. But how did you get into the creative agency space? What was your path to founding an agency?

Yeah, it was windy. So my entire life since like a young teenager, I wanted to be a professional photographer and I had the good fortune of going to Brooks Institute of Photography in Santa Barbara, California, which is the top school in the world. Very small elite school, about 300 students. And I studied industrial scientific and undersea photography. So I can take a picture of like a bullet cutting through matchsticks or, you know, sea lions, you know, off the coast of Anacap Island, but not super applicable to the real world. So I was a starving artist for a while. I was an assistant, did that for a couple years and, you know, got to literally the top of the game, but you can be an assistant forever or you can break out. And when I was entering the world, That was when stock photography was first emerging and it was already closing studios. So this is like 1995 and this has just been a trend that has continued to go down to where now literally photography is basically an obsolete art form, you know, with artificial intelligence, with the iPhone and everything we do compared to the— I got 12 exposures on my Hasselblad that I have to make the most of or 1 exposure on my 4x5. It's been crazy. So as I was entering that, I did a year as a starving artist, you know, spent my life savings on my first art show, which lost the majority of my life savings. And then I had to get a job. And I could not imagine doing anything that wasn't in the creative services, to be completely honest. And my old CEO hates when I would share this, but I lied on my resume, said I was a graphic designer, got a job, was so out of money I had to go to Barnes Noble and like write down, like get a— we worked with Harvard Graphics was the application I didn't know how to use, but I said I did. Went to Barnes Noble, like wrote down how-to notes, um, so I could sort of BS my way through my job. And this is where like hard work pays off, right? I'm not a graphic designer, but basic skills— you show up, you do the work. Um, 2 years, got a promotion that moved me to Denver, and I just could not do the cubicle corporate world thing. And so I joked that I started a creative agency so I could hire myself once a month as a photographer.

And this is a, an interesting arc because You know, I'm hearing there's like, there's like this deeply creative artistic side, but also kind of the hustler mentality to, you know, may not be completely above board, but like lying on the resume and figuring out at Barnes Noble is kind of an opposite yet complementary skill set to being an artist, a creative.

Yeah, I think very balanced as far as the left and right brain. And you do have to have that like just get shit done mindset. Even when I started the agency, it was in '98, so nothing made money except adult content. My one rule was I wouldn't do anything I wouldn't show my mom. So that was the line I would never cross, even though that, you know, initially we had some decent opportunities in the adult world. Never dipped our toe in it. Um, but I would call, you know, apartment complexes and say, hey, I'm moving to the, the city, what's your website? Oh, we don't have one, you know, can we send you a brochure? No, I'm not interested. And then I would do that a few times, or have friends do it, and then I would show up and hit them up and like, people calling and, you know, asking for a website, you need one? So it was very, very like guerrilla marketing. Yeah.

I love it. And take me back. I mean, I'm sure there were some tough times in the starving artist days and, you know, can you kind of take me back to some of those moments? What was it like for you in those days?

I mean, it was, the biggest thing was being lost, right? My whole life, all I'd wanted to do was commercial photography. All is my passion. And when you went back to sort of like how hard you worked, um, I got my bachelor's degree in 2 years, 8 months, like placed out of things, school year-round. I was ready to enter the workforce, um, and that was— it was hard to realize this is not going to be the fruitful life that I had envisioned as a youth, and having to evolve that into something that would still be fulfilling. And I'll sure— I'm sure we'll talk about it later. But, you know, commercial art is soul-sucking and agency life, as grateful I am that I did that for two decades, like you could not pull me back in no matter what you offer me.

I know a little something about it. Having a wife who owns a marketing agency. So yeah, not to skip ahead too much, take me back. You know, sounds like you were hustling, getting your first clients. Tell me about the good old days of the agency.

I mean, the good old days was before I had employees. So when it was just me and the, you know, the company's called Zenman because it was like the Buddhist dude building websites in his living room under the stairs. And then it was fun, right? There wasn't the overhead equals stress. And as I built, as the company grew, it created this machine that ate money and it got to the point. And my, my ex Mindy, who's, I would attribute my ex-wife to the person that I've grown the most from. Knowing in my life. Amazing, amazing woman and entrepreneur. But she used to tell me back then, like, why, why do you have all these employees? You're the guy people want to work with. You do the best design work there. You even do code. Like, why not just be a one-man shop like an Aaron Draplin? And I used to tell her, you know, how dumb that idea was. In retrospect, that was brilliant. The stress came from as we grew. So the first couple years when it was just me That was easy. Close a couple jobs, do a couple projects. It was fun. Um, the only challenge then was the isolation, right? Being in your living room 12, 14 hours a day writing code or doing design and not interacting with humans.

So where does the growth come from? What was your first big break?

Um, man, first big break ended up being the biggest backfire. We got our first two six-figure jobs. I won't say the name of the company because we ended up in a lawsuit with one of them, but it was a large Colorado-based furniture company. And at the same time, we got another six-figure job with a collection company, and we were building large applications for both of them. And I had brought in a subcontractor to do some of the development work. The day after I wired him over $100,000, he went to both of these clients and said, 'Zinman is in breach because we're not under contract and haven't been paid.' we had paid him. It was very easy to prove. We'd wired it, but he closed his business and opened a new business to compete directly with Zenman, um, and went to that furniture company and said, hey, they're in breach. And according to that, um, they will have to pay us to finish the project for you, and you can collect daily on errors and omissions. It was like hundreds of thousands of dollars. We were actually not in the wrong. In fact, they were in breach because you can't hire our subcontractor. It was a very clear part, which they had done, but that cost me more money. It was over $100,000 to walk away, and we were totally in the right. So that was the biggest at-bat, and I realized, like, man, when you, when you get that shot, you can't fuck it up. Like, you really have to make the most of that opportunity, because it took another half a decade before we got our next, like, A-league client.

I mean, I just can't imagine the emotions that, that must come with getting a big shot and then having that rug pull moment. What was that like?

I mean, that was my first bout in therapy. I lost 30 pounds. Like, I disappeared off the planet. And that was probably the moment when it actually stopped being fun, like, altogether. And I probably went a decade where I just didn't laugh. Like, I could go see Jerry Seinfeld on a date and sit there all night and just be, you know, completely solemn, um, and I really realized like shit was broken, um, the, the ROI was not there, the juice wasn't worth the squeeze, and I was trading my, my time for money. And even though I think at the end I was like $600 an hour, um, that's a shit deal.

And were you making money or was it just a, a machine kind of, you know, top line grows as overhead grows?

Yes, and there were the peaks and valleys, right? So the one thing that we didn't do well at Zenman was we didn't have recurring revenue. We were project-based. So we go do a $250,000 project to build an airline website, which is amazing. There are not that many airlines that you can go get. And the site we built is still being used by Frontier. So the one I designed, you know, 12 years ago. So there just— there wasn't enough. It was like feast or famine and that lack of recurring revenue. We would have amazing months, but then we would have the next month we'd lose $100,000.

Oh man. I mean, what a stressful existence.

Yeah, it creates gray and it's impactful to your health, not just your physical but your mental health. Or I'm sorry, not just your mental but your physical health.

Yeah. So, so, so tell me about that. Like, like when did you realize? I mean, it sounds like you started to realize right after your first major loss, but like when was the moment when you said, holy shit, this isn't working?

Not soon enough. But it was— there was a program through EO called the Entrepreneur Master's Program. And the first year, there's an amazing man, Warren Rustan, who was speaking. And I remember realizing you are trading your time for money, and time is the only finite resource I have that we spend without knowing how much is left in the bank. And $600 an hour is a shitty deal. So I'm done doing that. And that was when I sort of pivoted and said, I want to create things that generate revenue, that make the world a better place, that don't require me to be grinding.

And what year was that?

Uh, 2017. So it was 19 years after starting the company.

Wow. And like, how did you exist for those 19 years, you know, never feeling like it was really working?

I mean, completely like 1% EO vulnerable. A lot of self-medication, uh, through cannabis. Um, that was a huge crutch that I used. And, you know, in the creative services, you can also use that as a justification like, oh, it's great, you know, I have an espresso and I'll smoke a joint and I'll do my best work. Yeah, it's kind of bullshit, right? I'm not saying, you know, don't, don't have that outlet, but don't have that crutch. Don't use it as self-medication. And I think the biggest switch for me was really embracing meditation at a daily deep level.

So let's talk about your path because I mean, you named your agency Zen Man from early on. So, so I imagine, you know, you're— you've been down this, this path for a long time, but it sounds like it was also the unlock later on. So, so trace me your, your path and then like when you actually made the switch and how that came about.

I was a devout atheist my whole life and just like, God doesn't exist. You guys believe in dragons and fairies. This is stupid. And when I was in college, I was a bartender. And, uh, you know, I would— I don't even want to say how much I drank, probably on a nightly basis when you work in a bar. And on breaks at school, I'd be sitting outside, you know, in Santa Barbara overlooking the sea, chain-smoking like 3 Camel Lights before break would be over and like downing a Mountain Dew. And there was this Buddhist monk that was auditing the tiny school I was going to that worked with the Dalai Lama, and he started just asking these questions like, why? Like, why is that better to you than like the beautiful smell of the ocean air? And he wouldn't, you know, it wasn't, you know, you need to become a Buddhist or why are you, you know, craving these things? But he just asked questions that made me contemplate. And the reason I chose atheism besides evolution and all of those other things like science being real was I struggled with why am I so lucky that I was born in the right place, right? If I was born in the Middle East, then I would think we are all going to be, you know, suffering because we're not, worshipping, you know, Allah or all of the different beliefs. And if we were born 2,000 years ago, we would be worshipping the sun in Egypt or— So I just, I didn't have the ego to say, "No, no, I'm the lucky one that's born here." I actually wanted to look out and say, "What are the different things?" And what really appealed to me is that, you know, Buddhists don't believe in a god. So that really resonated with me. And then the other thing, being on the crazy excess path of like, you know, chain smoking bartender, working around the clock was the middle way, and that, like, embracing moderation. And that was an eye-opener.

Yeah. So, and so did you start, uh, meditation at that time? And what did your practice look like, or more just the philosophy?

I started at that time, but it wasn't— it didn't take hold. It wasn't until probably about 14 years ago, 15 years ago, when I did formal TM training. And Transcendental Meditation To me, that was the game changer and adopting that daily practice. And the beautiful thing about TM is they give you the permission to know that like when thoughts enter your mind, it's not that you don't know how to meditate, it's that the same thing happened to the Dalai Lama or any other, you know, Olympic-level meditator that day. And go back to your mantra or your contemplation or your guided meditation. So that to me, that was the game changer. And the technique just works so well.

I think the most common thing I hear from especially Type A founder types, you know, always say, oh, I can't meditate because I can't quiet my mind. Yeah. And it's such a misconception, is that, well, no one can, is the answer. But it's so pervasive that meditation is supposed to be this, you know, quiet experience. Everyone's like, well, I'm not doing this right.

Yeah, yeah.

When you are. Right, the only way it can be done. Yeah. So these, you know, kind of fundamental beliefs sort of start forming college. They follow you through, you know, founding the agency. But, you know, it sounds like there was some, you know, fairly dark years kind of in the middle here.

Yeah.

When did you first start feeling successful? Or, you know, what were—

Again, I'll go back to Mindy. She has this woman that she worked with that was like a— what is the energy masseuse? What's that called? The—

Reiki. Reiki. Yeah.

Reiki masseuse. And her masseuse had this nightmare that I had drowned. And it was right when the Oak Journal came out and I was invited to go on my first speaking tour. And I'd done like Denver Startup Week talks and agency talks, but not like motivational speaker, which I hate the term, but it's my job. And I had this speaking tour in Asia and Celeste called me. I went and met with her and she said, I had this dream that if you stay on your current path, you're going to die soon. But if you embrace this new opportunity, this is your life's purpose. And I remember saying like, embrace the essence of the boar on this. And so I did a month in Europe and all over Asia and just every— I just said yes to everything. You know, somebody offered me to come to dinner at their house after a keynote. Yes. You want to go to the, you know, Batu Caves in Malaysia? Yes, yes, yes. And just taken that same approach. Anytime I'm speaking. How can I be of service? How can I embrace the opportunity that Anthony Bourdain— like, have the drink, eat the food, say yes to the opportunity. But I've also realized when I'm not on the road, when I'm here, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a no. So I'm very, very guarded with my limited time that I have not on the road.

Yeah, I love this. And for me, that's what the middle way is actually about. It's actually about inhabiting both extremes, not compromise. I think, I think it would be— and look, I think there's, you know, moderation is certainly a part of the teaching, but, you know, the way I view it is like inhabiting both extremes. I want to go send it heli skiing and travel the world and, you know, party and, you know, embrace the whole thing. And then when I'm at home, it really is sort of monk mode. It's, it's meditation and writing and Yeah, saying I try not to leave my house ever is kind of the thing. And I've seen a lot of people go down this path that it's not about giving up, you know, the fun or the excess. It's just embracing both and knowing when to shift.

Yeah, absolutely.

How did you learn that?

Oh, I mean, years of excess and years of self-deprecation probably. And I would say like we talked about before we started recording, it's all still a work in progress. Um, you know, there are times when I don't do enough and times when I do too much, and, and that's the fun of life, right? Enjoying this little blip of time that we get hurtling through space in this flesh-covered skeleton.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, I want to go back to the, the inflection point because I think this is really interesting for folks because, you know, there are a lot of people listening that have built a successful company, you know, stood on the mountain of success, whatever that meant to them, and they look out and they go, is this really it? Because my internal experience does not match my external success, or what the world might view as success. It sounds like you were standing on that mountain at some point. What would you say to that person?

Comparison is the thief of joy. So I think most of us Um, when we envision what success is, it's how others see us. Are we viewed as successful? Um, and especially in, you know, EO or entrepreneur, YPO, different, um, groups, it's very easy to compare yourself to others. And I think that's the worst possible thing you can do as far as finding happiness. Um, again, completely an ongoing work in progress. But it was probably, you know, in my 40s when I was like, all right, I'm, I'm not, not going to cut my hair anymore. I don't care what people think. I am who I am and I'm comfortable in my own skin. Um, and surrounding myself with the people that embody the same values that I do, that lift me up. And cutting— this is probably a big piece— cutting energy vampires out of my life, cutting the people that had been maybe with me since I was a kid but were not making me a better person to be around.

I just had this discussion, you know, somebody asked me what was the best advice I could give for someone entering their 40s. And I think that's it, is asking of every commitment, every relationship, every agreement that you've made, like, is this still serving me? Because a past version of you made those commitments and you know, in my experience, you know, coaching hundreds of founders and in my own life, like 40 is the time you have to start getting rid of that stuff and going, okay, what's actually important to me? What do I want? What do I value? And instead of living for everyone else's, you know, commitments that they place on you, it's like, what do I actually want? And I think it's the time.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, so how did you get the idea for the journal? How did you finally decide to let agency life go? What does that look like for you?

So the journal was the EMP program and trying to figure out what could I build with the skills that I have on my own. And that was the Oak Journal. The program I did was teaching you how to be the best version of yourself, setting goals, clarity of vision, you know, creating a BHAG for your life and all of these tools to accomplish it. So I took those and distilled them down into a paint-by-numbers tool. But it was serendipitous because after I'd returned from that trip to Asia, an EO that I'd met in Peru reached out to me and said, hey, I want to, I want to buy an agency. I said, great, Daniel, I'll tell you a couple you probably shouldn't look at because they're in lawsuits and some that are great. He said, no, I want to buy your agency. And so even though I'd cut 90% of my staff and was really like not turning the lights off, but like definitely the dimmer switch was, was going down. He was a SaaS company and he bought us for our client list, our reputation. So it was, it was a perfect example of a win-win. You know, that company went from being a big player in Latin America to entering the US market. They had access to our Rolodex. It was such a good experience. I stayed on for almost twice as long as my earnout required, even though I was ready to ride off into the sunset. Yeah, but there was a like concern because the company was even called Zenman. So like, Am I losing my identity in selling my baby?

Yeah, I mean, this is, so much of my work focuses on that post-exit identity loss. And even if you're ready to be done with the company objectively, there's still so much more that's wrapped into that. How did you navigate the post-exit transit? It sounds like you had an earnout. How did you navigate the identity loss?

Psychedelics. So I did, I had, I think you've talked to Aaron Houghton. Yeah, Aaron's amazing. And, you know, I think his— I mean, his exit was much bigger than, like, much bigger than mine. And his identity loss was much more significant. And so, you know, being friends with Aaron and seeing that before I went through it and the lessons that Aaron learned along the way, I decided, all right, when the time comes, I'm going to go to Joshua Tree, did a bunch of psilocybin, sat around the campfire, and then at the end of the night, I burned my last business card and said, okay, I'm— this chapter is done and I'm stepping into the next chapter. So an intentional, intense psychedelic experience. And honestly, it worked. I never had that feeling of loss. It felt like closure and a new beginning.

I mean, yeah, what a fortunate thing to have seen a friend go through it because I think so often it's kind of blindsiding because there's, you know, there's exuberance and there's, you know, the finally doing the thing. And then all of a sudden you step into the vacuum and it's like, oh no, what next? But it also sounds like you sort of had what next already on the horizon.

I did. And I also didn't, which I think makes it even more just sort of awe to see from the outside. Like mine wasn't a you can just be done for life exit, right? But seeing people that do have those, like, I don't ever— like, my grandkids don't ever have to do anything if they don't want to, and still having that struggle is crazy to see. So that, I think, made me even more acutely aware of trying to avoid it.

Back to the relationship with money, this easy-go, easy-come mentality. Did anything change for you after the exit, or when did you start to become aware that the spending and that mentality might have not been serving you?

I've been aware of it. Yeah. In perpetuity, to be honest with you.

But every time you're in a shitty situation.

Yeah. When you, when you like, oh, that didn't come as quite as the check didn't arrive, it didn't clear, you know, post-exit, that was, it was kind of like a do-over. And so I took that as an opportunity to say, okay, you know, this big check came, big check came. I've got this earnout. I can reset and just start a new foundation. So I, I kind of got a do-over, which most of us don't get in life. And so that, that for me was there. And in all fairness, the do-over was like 20 years of all-nighters and grinds and 100-hour weeks. So I earned it. It wasn't a, you know, fall-in-my-lap situation, but I don't expect to have another one again. And so that was kind of my reset and then rebuild.

Sounds like you had at that point the earned foresight to recognize not to blow it.

Yeah.

Which is rare. I wish I had that. I could have used that information about 2019. So, so you exit, you reset, and how does your new career start to take shape and unfold?

Slower than I expected. You know, all of us, especially founders, we think it's going to happen, you know, 10 times faster than it takes.

Never heard of it.

Yeah, but it It was a slow grind and just constantly, constantly working. The one thing that I've been very different in my approach to speaking and being an author is, um, I try to add value, not FOMO. So from everything that I do, you know, if it's, you know, posting something on, on social or an article that I write, it's, it's not about how awesome my life is. It's about how there's tools that you can use or something that can inspire you or a concept that I would like to share with you. And I think, um, that's more important than just the, the hustle mindset or the look how great you can be if you have my life. Like, this— that's, I think, the worst thing to, to put out there is how great you are. Um, I really try to do the opposite and just let everybody else know how amazing they can be and already are.

I think that's such a beautiful clarification, because as someone who's been on this path of building a personal brand, you know, over the last couple of years, everything I speak about tends to be nuanced. And it turns out there's not a lot of room for nuance on social media, right? It's a lot easier to say, take step— my step 1, 2, and 3, and your life's going to be amazing. And it sounds like you found a really great approach. Can you unpack that just a little bit more? Because, yeah, it strikes me that you are not the attention-seeking type, right? And That's been a limitation of mine, right? So what advice would you give me on this?

So this is interesting because the, the book that we're, you know, that's on the table, The Zen of Business, is my second book. The first book to promote it, uh, Ryan and Avery and I set a Guinness World Record for the longest public speaking marathon, and we donated all the money that was raised from book sales, 100% of the proceeds from book sales during this day and a half that we were speaking non-stop, to, uh, Free Tibet. And it did not make the book a bestseller. Uh, it was the worst hangover I've ever had. It cost a— it costs a lot of money to set a Guinness World Record for that little plaque, and you know, you get to set the confetti off and that's fun, but it didn't make the book a bestseller. Um, I hate the term personal branding. I think it is bullshit. In fact, I'm working on a book called Your Personal Brand Is Bullshit, and the reason is I think most people are inauthentic and they're trying to put something that's fake out there. I have a good friend who I also met at MIT, Kimberly Moffett, who helped me embrace like, hey, it needs to be authentic, but the way you can actually share your message, the easiest way is actually social. So she helped me. I've been working with Kimberly for a year and a half, and I went from like 800 followers that were my friends and EO friends to 120,000. And it was authentic. I shared things that I thought were valuable. And when the book came out, it was a bestseller. So the, the power of creating an organic following— I'm not going to say personal brand— is when you do create something, you have that built-in audience that you can plug into and share, whether it's a new journal, a book, you know, I'm gonna do it when, you know, when this podcast comes out, by all means, it's going to be on there. Um, that has value, and that has value beyond the agency or this book or this tool. And so It's cringe to get over it, but it's powerful and it's fun. I have grown to the point that I get the most ludicrous hate and I really embrace it and have fun with it. I think if you don't do that, it would be— it would destroy you.

One of my greatest pleasures is zinging followers on X back when they— when they drive by, you know, hate on my post that I worked 4 hours on, like crafting this beautiful story. And someone's like, you know, this guy sucks. I'm like, you know, yeah.

So I do the opposite. The this guy sucks is actually good for your organic reach to grow if it spawns a conversation. So I've had like I had a woman say, do you think this bozo really dresses like this with the glasses and cardigans? And I'm like, and my response was like, you know, I knew her name wasn't Karen, but let's just say, you know, Karen, I'm wearing glasses since the second grade. I live in Colorado and I'm quite fond of cardigans. I dress like this every day. This is authentically me. 'But sending you positive thoughts and energy, and I hope that you have a great day.' And then everybody else piles on like crazy. But what ends up happening is that conversation within the platform tells the algorithm, 'This post is really interesting, all these people are commenting.' So the posts that I get the most hate on end up performing the best, which is sadly ironic.

Totally. I said, yeah, you definitely— yeah, you got to feed the beast somehow. It might as well be sending good vibes.

If you let it get to you, it's— you're never going to get— and Kim has a good point, like, hey, you've— you're getting this hate because you have over 100,000 followers, right? If you had 84 people following you, then yeah, mom's gonna love you. But see it as a milestone of achievement, and that was a great perspective.

Yeah, so, so, uh, talk to me about the second book and, and, um, how you came up with the concept and, and, and kind of 'Cause The Zen of Business is an amazing title. What does that mean to you?

It's applying ancient Eastern wisdom to modern business. And it really goes, like we were talking about, the Four Noble Truths and then the Eightfold Path. And then it takes the 8 concepts, you know, right understanding, right livelihood, right speech, right concentration, and unpacks those with not just a Buddhist belief, but also how it applies to business. And then it follows up each chapter with an Eastern concept. Right speech is a great example, right? Effective communication, especially as a leader, is the most underdeveloped skill in people that lead companies today. And so, understanding how that applies not only to your business but even your relationships and your children and your partner. So, it just takes everything and breaks it down and applies that tool that's existed for thousands and thousands of years to help somebody make money but have better, happier employees that are healthier and, you know, do good with your customers and leave the world a better place.

I think it's so needed, um, as someone who's also down the Buddhist path. Um, but here's where I struggle, and this is, this is, you know, sort of real time, is, you know, uh, as I've given up the illusion of, of not enoughness, as I've been, as I've walked you know, the meditation path and done healing, you know, there is sort of, um, at least what appears to be a conflict between giving up the, the dirty fuel, the chip on the shoulder, I'm going to show the world energy, and then showing up and, and, you know, still achieving in business and having motivation. Do you address that in the book, or how do you think about that?

Yeah, actually, there's a quote from Bruce Lee in the book. And Bruce Lee would say, "Having goals isn't about keeping score, it's about having direction." And I think where those goals start to create desires that create suffering is when we attach a scoreboard to it, as opposed to, you know, "Hey, I do wanna have a New York Times bestselling book. This one made it to Amazon. Next is USA Today," right? There's this stepping stone to get there. And it's a goal, but if I never achieve that goal, I'm still going to be proud of the results that I got. I think, um, it's also in the book, one of the best sayings is that, um, one of life's greatest tragedies is not that people aim too high and miss, but that they aim too low and hit. So I'd rather shoot for the stars and end up at the moon than, you know, shoot for a hilltop and get there.

Yeah. And, and how do you separate that from self-worth? Right. If you set a big goal and you don't make New York Times, even if that was your lofty goal, like, how do you keep that from kind of creeping in?

I mean, being— celebrating wins, right? Like being proud of yourself. We literally were just talking about this in Forum 2 days ago, and everybody in Forum is high achieving and we're all setting goals and accomplishing them. But many times we're struggling because we're comparing ourselves to others, right? Okay, well, I've published 2 books. That's more than most people are going to do. So even if I never make the New York Times bestseller list, still being proud of myself and having gratitude for the accomplishments that I've achieved instead of like, well, all right, Tucker Max has how many bestsellers and he's kind of a dickhead, right? No offense, Tucker. I've read your books. You know, you would say that about yourself.

I'm a nose sucker. Yeah. I mean, and yeah, he's self-admitted.

Yeah. But that's his books, right? And that's the story he's telling. And but yeah, just being good with who you are. And I think only trying to be better than yourself yesterday and never comparing yourself to somebody else because as soon as I even said the name, I'm like, oh, he's got 3 bestsellers. Like, shit, he's actually way ahead of me in the race. But then, and I have no idea, but I think about my boys, like I'm winning, right? And I have no idea if he's married, kids, or any, truly have no idea. But I know I have the two best kids in the world and I'm winning in my heart.

To tie it more deeply into Buddhist concept, how do you think about desire versus attachment? And I'll frame this because again, kind of like meditation, I think people get non-attachment wrong, is I should float above it and not have any desires.

Yeah.

So, so how do you separate those two or reconcile that?

I think just being actually grateful for what you have. I think there's— I like cars. I've always liked cars, right? My dream car was, um, Range Rovers. And when I finally had one, right after I got it, we got pregnant, and my ex had a Honda Accord, uh, which is not as safe as a Range Rover when you have a baby. So when our son was born, we traded cars, and I, I've always driven black SUVs. She had a white sedan. I hated that car, and I treated it like shit, so it fell apart. So that made it worse to drive. And it wasn't until I actually realized I need to be grateful for this car that I actually bought a new car. It was, it was almost like, uh, I'm not going to make this change until I can realize this car is nicer than 99% of the people on this planet will ever drive. And when I can be grateful for it, then I can move on to the next thing without feeling like it was creating suffering along the way.

For me, like, when I, when I think, you know, I've got a book coming out, um, later this year. When I think about something like the New York Times bestseller list, you know, I can desire to be on the bestseller list without attaching to that desire, without making it mean anything about me. So, you know, it's only human, it's natural to be like, well, I want somebody to read this. I poured 3 years of my life into this thing. Like if it sells 30 copies, I'm gonna be kind of bummed, right? And so I can hold this with an open palm and just go, yeah, like I desire to do well, And if it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything about me, right? And that's the non-attachment piece. It's not eradicating, you know, worldly desires because it's— that's, that's not possible for humans. Kind of like it's not possible to stop the thought stream.

Yeah, well, I don't think— I think that's when we would stop progressing as a species as well.

Yeah, we need, we need a vector, sort of.

Yeah. And yeah, we're always improving. And I know that Necessity is the mother of invention, but it's also curiosity and I think boredom and just having time to sit around and think about what's possible.

So a question that I get often from, you know, hard-charging entrepreneurs who are sort of looking at this path and let's say, let's say that they're, you know, curious about the principles in your book. The question I get often is, yeah, this all sounds great, but what if I lose my edge? What would you tell someone like that?

I mean, why would, why would you lose your edge by being healthier and happier? I would argue that you're losing your edge by burning the candle at both ends, right? The, the hustlepreneur is only going to get you so far. And yeah, I mean, I take cold plunges and I make sure I do my sleep and my gratitude and meditation and all the things that are scientifically proven to help, but If you think just by being hard in perpetuity, you're going to continuously improve, you're eventually going to stop growing and start reverting. You, you have to get new skills. And the cool thing that I like about a lot of the, the information in the book is now there's scientific studies that show it, right? It's not just the, the long-haired hippie guys saying how much happier he is with Buddhism or meditation. Um, and meditation has nothing to do with Buddhism. Um, you know, there are studies that show what is happening to your brains. The neuropathways are being created. The additional time that we're spending in alpha or theta brainwaves, like it's, it's truly magic. And now we have the science to show the results, not just the testimonials.

So, uh, if there's a founder listening that said, I've tried that meditation stuff, I downloaded Headspace, it didn't really work for me. Uh, how would you describe your process with, with meditation and, and You know, how, how has that path unfolded for you?

I mean, I had the exact same thing and then it was, it was TM, right? And going through tm.org and actually hiring somebody to teach me, go through that 3-day process of learning TM. I would also say Google TM mantra by age and you can save the 2 grand and learn it. You know, the, the Transcendental Meditation organization believes that if you, if you pay for something, then you'll value it more. And I agree. However, they did a study in the '90s called the Maharishi Effect, where 400 practitioners of TM went to Washington, D.C. They told the mayor, we're going to lower violent crime in the city. He said, when hell freezes over, it's the hottest month of the year. It's always the highest crime rate. And you can Google this if you're listening. Violent crime was reduced by 26%. I think it's still the lowest violent crime on history in Washington, D.C. So if you've got 400 people meditating for 2 hours and it has that profound impact on people that are just in their city, why wouldn't— even if only a billion of the 8 billion people embraced it— give this away? Like, I'm a huge fan, and Aaron would agree with this when I was helping him with Founders First. The more you give away, I mean, nothing, nothing that's in that book is proprietary that I came up with, right? Like, this is a life's experience and the books that I've read and the experiences that I've had coupled into my opinion. Um, but man, I'll happily share it with anybody if it'll help them be a better version of themselves or reach their potential.

I think that's the balance that any, uh, you know, for me on the coaching side, but, you know, speaking, creating content You know, the way I look at it is, you know, my book can absolutely impact the world for a pretty low price. I mean, you know, and by the way, you know, I plan to offer it for free for people that can't afford it, you know, that type of thing.

I love it.

And then there's a certain percentage of people that go, okay, I want to go deeper with Mike and they can pay me a certain amount of money.

And then there's people that want to go one-on-one.

And so I can still make a living doing what I'm doing and impacting the world. And it's not out of balance, right? It doesn't mean I have to charge everyone.

It's actually feeding your income, right? Because you are giving something away that you're passionate about, that you believe in, that you value. I'm sure that actually absolutely leads to the people at the top echelon of, you know, your one-on-one work.

Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's, uh, you know, people I think can, uh, view it, um, myopically and be like, why don't you just give it all away for free? If you really say you're about helping people.

Oh, right, right. Livelihood, right? I mean, even in the Noble Eightfold Path, like we still— I have kids, you know, I have overhead, you know, I have to have a roof over my head. We're not meant to live under a bridge and, you know, beg for rice. I'm not a monk. Yeah, right livelihood. In right livelihood in Buddhism, it's, you know, we don't harm ourselves, we don't harm others, we don't create drugs or alcohol, we don't kill animals and we don't hurt the planet. So I see nothing wrong with making a living and having that, that financial freedom. It also gives you the opportunity to make the world a better place. I think Jeff Hoffman is one of my favorite entrepreneurs as far as his story with what he does, you know, with the money that he's made and making the world a better place.

And You know, based on this path, what does wealth mean to you now?

Freedom. Yeah. So wealth is freedom. It's time, right? Like the ability to spend my time where and with the people I want in the places that I want to do. Obviously, if you want to travel, if you want to have experiences, Um, there's a cost associated with that. Um, but also, you know, I did an exercise about 6 or 7 years ago. I'm sure you've read a bunch of Joe Dispenza, but he has this tool where you write intentions and feelings and when you're trying to sort of visualize your future, but you don't know exactly what you want to do. And it was, you know, 2018 when I was starting this and I wrote, you know, I want to get paid to travel. I want to feel like my world helps others reach their potential. I want to not have imposter syndrome. I want to use my creative skills. And it's crazy when you write things down, how it just comes to fruition. But there wasn't a, I'm going to be a motivational speaker. In fact, I think that's the worst job title there is.

Only, only second to life coach.

Yeah. They're pretty good. They're pretty equal.

I wonder if you can just take us a little deeper on, on some of the concepts in the book and, you know, some of the core concepts like the Noble Eightfold Path and how you view that as a Western householder, right? Because I think a lot of times people can look at this and go, yeah, that sounds great for a monk, right? And there's certainly the practitioner path and that's, you know, its own thing. How does a Western householder apply this?

Man, the best example would probably be right intention. And again, we go through all of those 8, but as a Westerner, everybody's familiar with the Golden Gate Bridge, right? Everybody knows San Francisco, and you probably know how many people tragically take their own lives every year from the Golden Gate Bridge. There was an article I talk about in the book in The New Yorker where a coroner, after recovering a body, went to somebody's apartment, and he had left a note that said, "Today I'm going to walk to the Golden Gate Bridge, and if one person smiles at me, I'm not going to jump." And obviously nobody did. And so thinking about— it gives me goosebumps— but just thinking about saying the barista's name and asking how they're doing when you pick up the cortado in the morning. Or, you know, when somebody cuts you off in traffic, you know, thinking like, fuck you, you know, I'm in a hurry too. Or thinking, man, maybe that guy just got a call that his wife was in a car accident, he needs to get to the hospital. Like, if I can change my perspective to always expect that somebody has the best intentions at heart, even when it's not— what, how's that hurt me, right? In fact, it actually helps me because now I'm not bitter and pissed off and angry at that person. I'm actually sending them empathy and love, which only comes back to me.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I certainly find in my own life when I, when I focus on the Four Measurables and, uh, you know, always just trying to Yeah, it's kind of the opposite of the fundamental attribution error, right? Which is assuming that I have noble intentions and everybody else is out to get me or assigning the worst. How can I flip that on its head and assume positive intent all the time? And it's wild, right? Because the reality is it doesn't change the nature of reality at all, but it fundamentally alters how you experience reality.

1,000%. That's all we can do is our perception.

Yeah, totally. So now we'll go back to the question that you stole from me. What would you go back and tell, you know, the version of yourself that was, that was in the thick of it in the agency, you know, maybe, maybe 10 years in realizing it's not working. What would you go back and tell that guy now?

Oh, you'll get through this.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, that's one of the things that over all of the like stumbles and falls and like really, I don't know how I'm going to make it out of this. We always do, right? Like, there's, there's always tomorrow. And Warren Rustan, the guy I mentioned earlier that taught me a lot of the tools that are in the Oak Journal, he had the saying that if, if everybody in the world took their problems and we all hung them on this giant clothesline, and I could see your problems and I could see his problems and everybody else's, and you had to go and choose which problems you take back, almost all of us are going to take our own problems back when we see what everybody else is really dealing with. And then another thing that he said is like, no matter what you have going on— and I mean, I had foreclosure notices that were on my office that I was, you know, getting to the studio at 6 in the morning to make sure if there was a new one, I could take it off the door before an employee saw it. So they didn't know how bad things really were. I mean, things were bad, but there was somebody in a hospital that would cut off their left arm to trade problems with me, with a terminal disease that had just lost a child, with something that isn't even— it made my problems completely irrelevant. And when you compare your problems to other people's, it's pretty grateful for the shit we have to deal with.

Yeah.

What an amazing thought.

And if there's one thing you could leave our listeners with, um, I'll give you the final word. What's the, what's on your mind? What would you like to hear the audience take away?

Oh, that all of them can accomplish anything. And that, uh, you know, all of the things that, that people use as, um, self-limiting beliefs or, um, reasons why they say, I'm not going to accomplish this, you know, I wasn't born into money, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good-looking enough. I mean, if you say that, you're right. But the truth of the matter is anybody can accomplish anything if we just every single day try to be 1% better than you were yesterday, make progress towards your goals, and think in terms of decades and not years, and you'll get there a lot faster than you expect.

Well, man, well, this has been an amazing conversation. I deeply appreciate the work that you're putting into the world, and I look forward to seeing what unfolds from here.

Thanks. It's been an honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

All right. Cheers, Keith. Thanks.