Mike Brown and Kevin Dahlstrom compare luxury vacations to simple family time, finding that fishing and hiking with kids matter as much as five-star resorts. They cite a pattern from 350+ founders: spending beyond $30-50K monthly hits diminishing returns. The real wealth is time freedom, not stuff.
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Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, joined by my dear friend Kevin Dahlstrom, who is a member of my Inner Circle. And that's the whole idea behind this podcast, is that we're having the conversations that Kevin and I wax philosophical on anyway. Today's topic is inspired by a trip I recently took. I went to Kentucky for spring break, and I got to set the stage here. Last year for spring break, we went to Cabo. We stayed at a 5-star resort. We blew it out. It was amazing. And my wife suggested we go visit my parents and my brother in Kentucky for spring break. And I was, I was kind of bummed. I was like, oh, but I wanted to go to the resort again. And I got there and the cousins mobbed my kids. They, they started playing. They ran around for 5 days on my brother's property in Kentucky. They fished, they hiked, they caught frogs. They went in the canoe. They had the best trip of their lives and we had an amazing trip with my parents and my brother, just slowing down, talking about deep conversation, you know, talking about deep topics. And the insight was a lesson that is obvious. It's almost too obvious to be true, but it's the best things in life are free. And compared to this 5-star Mexico resort epic trip, the basically free, other than the price of plane tickets to Kentucky trip. Was equally epic. And I even, you know, I think about this stuff a lot and still get caught up in this idea that the resort has to be better.
Amen, brother. Um, well, clichés are clichés for a reason, right? Just because there's some truth to it that the best things in life are free. And there's so many examples out of it. And, um, when we decided to do this topic before we hit record, I said, this is one of those lessons we seem to have to learn over and over and over. Because like you, like I bias toward like these spectacular bougie, um, experiences and there's something to be said for that. Um, but, but fundamentally, you know, what makes for a great experience? It's, um, it's doing the thing with people you love. And I think the parenting angle is particularly interesting because the only thing better than winning yourself is when your kid wins and we see them happy. You're by definition happy. And so whatever you need to do to connect with your kid is going to be a magical experience. I know you, you posted again, uh, recently about you. I think you spent like 20 hours last weekend playing a video game with your son and you thought maybe you'd get some hate for that, but in a, in a cool way, people like were like, yeah, that's awesome. Like, and, and again. If you're connecting with your son, does it get any better than that?
Yeah. Well, so that one was actually my daughter and she's 8 and I did, I did sort of try to bait Twitter by saying I spent 20 hours this weekend playing a video game with my daughter. The first thing is, uh, she had some teeth pulled. She actually had surgery and like couldn't go run around and play. So that's why we chose to play a video game all weekend, but I mean, we We played all weekend and it was this cooperative game. It was her first, like, real story-based game. And we had the absolute best time. Like, I think it was one of the deepest connections I've ever had with my daughter. We had such a great time. And, you know, the point that I was trying to make is that there's a, there's a right way to parent. Like, if I, people believe there's a right way to parent. If I posted that I went camping or spent the time outdoors with my daughter, everyone would would clap. My idea was that people would probably get mad that I spent 20 hours on screens with my daughter, but the connective experience is actually the same. And, and that's the point. And what happened restored my faith in humanity, at least, at least X's humanity, because all these parents were like, oh my God, I love gaming with my kids too. And it was just like a really cool moment of like, there's no right way to do it as long as you're connecting with your kid.
And, and outside the context of parenting, connecting with other humans, um, and so I posted something, it was completely unrelated, but, but I'm going to tie it in. Yeah, I said, you know, when I used to be a big executive in these big companies, one of the companies I worked for, um, we had a, um, a suite at Cowboys Stadium for NFL games, and I had unlimited access. I could go whenever I wanted and I would go sometimes and it was amazing. Like I wrote, you know, leather recliners, prime rib, private bathrooms. But every time I went, I noticed something, which is the people on the other side of the privacy glass were having more fun. And because I think it's something about this idea of, you know, you can't buy the best experiences because they're participatory, right? Like you could have watched your daughter and a friend of hers play that video game and, and you bought the set, set. You maybe, you know, gave them some nice food and whatever, created a comfortable environment, but you participated, which took out— you did the hard thing, which is the work. And that made all the difference.
Yes, there is absolutely a place for luxury and, and going and blowing it out. And I'm so glad that we had the Mexico trip. And I'm so glad that we had the Kentucky trip and both can be true. And this is, you know, I think where, where people get it wrong is they get trapped in being myopic about only one belief, right? If we say the best things in life are free, that means I have to only go on farm vacations for the rest of my life. No, I'm going to probably go to the resort again next year, right? I want to have both experiences, but I want to be free to choose which one it is.
Yeah. I call those contrast vacations. So, like, my wife and I are big on this, and one that I talk about a lot is Last September for one of our friends' 50th birthday, we went and hiked to the Grand Canyon rim to rim camping, um, you know, roughing it. It was hard. Uh, and then we flew to Vegas and had a 5-star dinner. We're in the number 1 spa in the world the next day. That contrast gives you perspective. Like each thing makes the other better. Another example, and we got so many examples, but I love this story is Um, 2 years ago, I, um, so I had this thing where for both of my daughters, when they're teenagers, I told them they can pick any location in the world. I'll take them there, just them and I, and I'll pay for it. They, they, they set the itinerary. My younger daughter wanted to do the Orient Express, which I thought was pretty cool. So it was like a, we took this luxury train through 5 countries through the Alps and we ended up in, uh, Italy and we were sitting in at the end of the trip. We were sitting in St. Mark's Square and, um, having coffee from the world's oldest coffee shop. Uh, been open since like 1750. And I asked, and it was, the sun was setting and I asked my daughter, I said, what was your favorite memory of this trip? And she said, actually right now. So the $30 coffee was her favorite memory from an amazing trip that cost a lot. And yeah, to your point, Both were great, but I think too often we focus too much on just the stuff you can buy and forget about just the simple pleasures.
Yeah. And in this, I mean, obviously it's a cornerstone of your philosophy, right? Is getting outdoors and sure, you've got to spend some money to buy a rack of rock climbing gear. But it's sort of a one-time investment and you get a lot of smiles and miles out of that. Out of that deal. Um, and, you know, at the same time, like, it's not, it's not, it doesn't have to be one or the other. And, uh, as it reg— like, this is something that's, that is constantly top of mind for, you know, the, the clients that I work with, the community that I run, is, you know, how do we raise kids where we have both experiences, right? Like, I want to show my kids the best in the world and, and some of the amazing exotic vacations that we never took as a kid, and I don't want them to normalize that as a standard. Like, I, I still want to do, you know, camping and, and, you know, farm life and all of that. How do you think about showing your kids that contrast in, in a way that, uh, you know, is, is meaningful for them? Yeah.
Well, um, it ain't by telling them anything because as we all know, like, anything you tell kids goes in one ear and out the other. Um, everything in parenting is about modeling for me. And I, I joke with my family sometimes that my kids are almost to an alarming degree. My kids are convinced we're broke. Uh, we're not, you know, spoiler, we're not broke. Um, but I think it's because of the way my wife and I live. We, we actually, I mean, and this is going to sound, you know, like a brag, but, you know, we live a very simple life and we have a really nice house like you do. But beyond that, um, you know, the way I spend my time, the way my wife spends her time, it's very simple. And I think they know what they've experienced. And, um, I think those incredible indulgences are, um, amazing. It's amazing to be able to show them the stuff. Like you said, I didn't get to do that stuff as a kid. Um, but to me it's like the 90/10 rule. Like that's maybe 10% at best. The other 90% should be the simple, seemingly mundane stuff that it turns out are the best experiences. Like, you know, we live in Colorado. For me, like going and climbing a Flatiron with my daughter is a peak experience. And she would say the same thing. And that doesn't cost anything except a little bit of skill and a lot of effort.
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm reminded of a, of an exercise, um, that, that I first participated in with, uh, with my coach Philip, you know, probably almost a decade ago, uh, and that I've since taken for retreats that I host called the 5 Happiest Days. And I have people journal on their 5 happiest days. And almost without fail, right, one of those days is some wild blowout experience. And 4 of them are completely mundane experiences like the coffee shop or like climbing the Flatiron, right?
Yeah.
And again, I'm saying this out loud for the first time, but I think that actually might be the ratio. Right? Like, I think if we sort of apply it, it's 80/20. 20% blowout experiences are going to make that lasting mark. And 80%, you know, being present, being truly there as a parent in the mundane, when you're, you know, playing soccer in the yard with your kid, can be equally as amazing as floating in the lazy river at the 5-star resort.
You know, I have to say that my direct observation has been that at some point wealth actually becomes a block to some of the best experiences. I always think about the CEO I worked with. He's a friend of mine, super nice guy. Um, he was worth 9, well into 9 figures, let's just say. And, um, but I got to a little glimpse into his life and like how his family lived their day-to-day and the way they traveled in particular. And, and take it one, one trip in particular, I went with them to New York, you know, because I was with him, we got to fly private. We had a driver at our beck and call the whole time. We stayed at the Peninsula. We had back, you know, backdoor access to Michelin star restaurants, whatever. And it dawned on me during that trip, I actually had to get out of the hotel at some point and go for a walk through the streets because it dawned on me that this guy had never really experienced New York. And we all know like New York is one of those places where like the grittiness is what makes the place. People yelling at the noise, the cars, the little, the bodegas, whatever. And he had never experienced that and he never will because it's, he lives in somewhat of a, a gilded cage. And so, you know, obviously having money is better than not, but I do, I truly believe at some point it starts to become a block and it's so important for us to go to Kentucky, uh, metaphorically and ground ourselves. So we don't forget that.
Yeah. And this is, you know, it's ironic almost in a certain way. Like, you know, my son right now is obsessed with fishing. He's 13. He loves fishing. It's, you know, he's watching— when he's not out fishing, he's watching fishing YouTube videos. Like, he's just, he's obsessed. But we can do that because I built this rad house in this amazing neighborhood with a pond in it. Like, I didn't grow up with a pond. Right. So, uh, I had to create wealth and spend all of this money to live in this awesome spot that now allows him to connect, uh, to nature, doing the simple things. And, and there is something kind of ironic about that, you know, it's like having a private—
but at the same time, um, fishing is kind of like climbing where it is equal access. Like if you went to a lake, let's say a good bass fishing lake, for sure. Um, You and a billionaire and a broke person are all fishing the same waters. And it's the same with like, like the, when I always say about the rock, like the rock does not give a shit who you are. It's coldly indifferent to who you are. And that's one of the things I love about it. It's very humbling, very grounding. Um, and so, so I'm going to tee you up with like the, the biggest layup for Mike Brown ever. And I'm going to segue into it by saying like, Why does, you know, if you're a listener out there, why does any of this matter? And I would say, uh, the reason this matters is because you don't need $100 million to live a great life. Um, the, you know, so much of what society tells us to chase, so much of what society says success is, is just plain wrong. And it's because if, if you embrace this idea that the best things in life truly are free, and there's exceptions to that, you know, everything in moderation, including moderation, it really changes the economics. Like, you know, the, the fancy car, the fancy house, the, the, the jet set lifestyle you think you want to lead that would just make your life amazing. It ain't all it's cracked up to be. So what's your take on this from a financial perspective as the arguably the preeminent expert in this matter.
Yeah. I mean, look, I've got, I've got my own, uh, evidence and then I've also got a lot of, uh, anecdotal evidence. I don't, I don't have, I don't have a formal study on this, but I've worked with, let's just say, you know, 350 plus, uh, successful founders at this point. So I've talked to a lot of rich people. We'll put it that way, uh, financially successful people. Here's what I basically found, uh, a couple of things. Number one is that marginal utility kind of taps out, kind of hits a ceiling at between $30K to $50K a month in spend, depending on where you live, right? So some of that's if you're in San Francisco versus Kentucky, you know, that, that's where that delta comes in. But beyond that, like if you're, if you're spending, let's talk about the kind of upper limit of that range, like $50K a month, like beyond that, you're either collecting stuff like collecting cars, collecting houses, you know, collecting art or flying private. That's how you really start to get those numbers up. But if you don't do that, like it's actually hard to spend a whole lot more than that without, you know, really indulging in excess. That's not going to make your life any better. So, and by the way, worth noting, I got to interject.
Of course, we recognize $30 to $50K is still a shit ton of money, but, but, but that's an important point to recognize is take it from Mike and the 350 rich people he's talked to is like, you know, $30K a month is not $100 million, not even close.
Right. I mean, and yes, so I always wanted, you know, that is a lot of money, right? $30K to $50K a month, you know, $350K to $600K a year is a high earning income, but, but by no means even close to $100 million. And, um, you know, really what I've also seen working with tons of these founders is that like the happiest, most fulfilled founders tend to have a business that nets them somewhere between, you know, that $600,000 and $1 million a year and is super low drag. They don't have to spend a lot of time on it. They've kind of optimized it. They're not scaling, they don't have 250 employees. And I'm not saying that, you know, scaling a company is a barrier to happiness, but just in my observation, the stress that comes with that is usually not worth the squeeze from a lived perspective. Now, there are some benefits to that. And, you know, I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, but, you know, I think that there is sort of a bell curve of like, utility when it comes to wealth. And I think that's kind of it.
And honestly, what I would add to what you said, um, because when I started getting into rock climbing, I was introduced to a whole other world and culture where, um, they seem to be way happier than all of my colleagues in the business world, but way poorer, like nowhere near the $30,000 a month. And I think, you know, the fundamental truth here is Um, ultimate wealth is control over your time. And to be clear, that doesn't mean a life of leisure. I think that's a miserable way to live. Like, you're probably still working just like you and I do. Um, but you do it on your terms and that's as good as it gets. And I would say that, um, I know people, like I always talk about my friend, uh, Tom, he's a mountain guide in, uh, Las Vegas. He's ex-military. Never in his life has he made more than $70,000 a year. And when I first met Tom, because he works about half the year, travels internationally about half the year, has an incredible lifestyle, very simple. And I said to Tom, I said, how in the world do you have a better life than me? I've done all, everything I was supposed to do. And the reason is because he set up a really simple life. He got very clear on what's important to him. He recognized this, this fundamental truth that the experiences he loves don't cost a lot. And so he does it on $5,000, $6,000 a month.
Yeah. And it's totally doable. You know, if you really get clear on what is it that brings you joy, you know, and look, who's to say that if I hadn't, you know, kind of gone down this philosophical rabbit hole 20 years ago, that I couldn't be living that same $5,000 to $6,000 lifestyle. Unfortunately, I normalized myself to a more luxurious life and now I have a taste for the finer things. Right. But there's, but just like the resort in Mexico, like there is diminishing returns. I don't want to spend every day at a resort in Mexico.
Yeah. Well, and, um, I'd say that, you know, my story is that I walked away from the, you know, the trajectory that, that CEO I was talking about was on and consciously chose to be poorer. It's all relative. Of course, I'm, I'm fine, but you're doing all right to be poorer. Um, but, but as you know, Mike, I'm currently contemplating another reboot and radically simplifying yet again. And, and it's really honestly not even so much about the money, but this idea from the, the movie Fight Club that everything you own owns a piece of you. It doesn't matter whether you're a billionaire or you're broke. A simpler life is just a better life. And embracing these simple joys is better joy.
Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's certainly. Unburdened, right? And that, and that, like, if, if the goal of wealth is to be free, which I, which I think it is, right? Like when we talk about money, it's not actually more money that we typically want. It's the feeling we think more money will give us. And that is freedom. And unburdening from stuff is a great way to increase freedom dramatically. Right?
1000%. This went a lot deeper than I expected. We started off with this idea of you went to Kentucky and realized yet again that Um, you know, simple joys are the best joys. I think we ended up laying out kind of our entire financial philosophy, which hopefully is, is useful for folks because as you and I often joke, and it's not really a joke, I'm not sure any two people have thought about this subject more than you and I. Yeah.
I mean, that's, uh, you know, we, we can poke fun of ourselves. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a great privilege to sit around and pontificate, uh, on, on this particular philosophy. Um, But at the same time, like, you know, there are a lot of people out there who are working really, really hard. You know, they are neglecting their families and they are well past what a great life could actually look like. And so, you know, if that's you, this is, this is just a desperate plea to maybe think about the things that Kevin and I are talking about here. Like, it doesn't have to be that way.
Amen, brother.
Cool.
Awesome. Good chatting again.
All right. Thanks, Kevin. We'll see you next time.
