The Seven-Figure Founder Who Was Secretly Falling Apart (Taylor Frame)

I was running a 7-figure agency. I had 3 kids. I had a house in Santa Cruz. I was on a heli-skiing trip.

We saw the rosy veneer. What does it look like underneath?

I was falling apart. Taylor Frame is the co-owner and chief revenue officer at Best Practice Media, where he helps entrepreneurs turn ambitious ideas into measurable results. With over 20 years in sales and marketing, He's helped hundreds of e-commerce and service businesses scale millions in spend. Taylor knows what it takes to scale fast, stay profitable, and dominate the market. It quickly became apparent that I was never gonna be able to earn or compete with all these people. I need to work harder. My value is directly tied to my income and my ability to make money.

I think so many successful entrepreneurs are trapped in some version of this thing. Your pantheon that you've built of money and success will make it all better starts to crack. What do you do in that moment?

Until you define what actually matters to you and then start aligning your life in that direction, you're going to be stuck in that loop. So I actually spent about a year and a half defining what I call my, my North Star. Which is what am I trying to do in this life? What actually lights me up? I am living those things through and through. I go camping with my kids at least once a month. I go on epic adventures with my friends.

You're still doing the same work that you were doing. Yeah, but you're a lot happier now. Why?

I think the two big shifts came down to—

Welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations with founders about money, meaning, and what makes a truly rich life. Today I am joined by my homie, my dear friend Taylor Frame, currently partners with my wife Claire at Best Practice Media, a marketing agency for e-commerce and service-based companies, and genuinely one of the funniest people I've ever met in my entire life. So, uh, I'm sure this conversation won't be very entertaining, but Taylor, welcome to the show.

Excited to be here. Thank you, Merrick.

So let's, let's start from the beginning. How did you grow up with money and how did that influence you to become an entrepreneur?

Yeah, my dad was an entrepreneur, essentially. He ran his own general contracting business, a whopping 2 employees on salary. So very small, but worked for himself his whole life. And I realized early on that if you're going to be able to have some time flexibility and some money freedom, you're most likely going to have to run your own shop. And so that kind of started my, my journey into entrepreneurship, watching my dad working on the job site and then working with a bunch of subcontractors who are also running their own shops to all degrees of professionalism. And so that, that was my first exposure into, you know, running your own business and the ebbs and flows of what that looked like. And then as I was growing up, because contracting is so capital heavy, the minute my dad would get money from a payout, it would just go into the next project. So there was never any like cash to do anything to the point that we didn't grow up poor, but we definitely did not have all the nice things our neighbors had. Right. And I was still mowing the lawn and doing the things and every dollar went far. To say the least.

Yeah. And what impression did that leave you with as a kid? Like, when did you become aware that maybe you didn't have some of those nice things?

Yeah, very early on. You know, we, we did grow up in definitely an upper-class community, which that disparity becomes very evident pretty quickly. You know, like when your bike is barely held together and your friend's bike's like brand new and never been scratched, like, whoa. That's crazy. They make bikes like that, you know? And then being like, I would go to school and I was, I had a lot of chores at the time. They'd be like, wait, Maria doesn't do that for you? Or you guys actually have, you mow your lawn? How does a lawnmower work? Like, I was like, yeah, doesn't everyone mow their lawn? No, that was just our family. So it became very quick early on, like, oh, there's a difference between incomes and income levels. Luckily, our family was really well-loved and, you know, we were very active in the community, so everything was fine. But yeah, it became evident early on that there was a difference.

And how did that difference start to manifest and drive you to become successful?

I think the biggest driver was I realized that to get to that next level, to have those really nice things, one, there was always the story of work hard. Okay. That was it. Like you work hard no matter what. And so I took that, which has served me very well and has some downsides in a big way. The second thing is that I realized that to have that, like the nice things, like the new bike or the new car or the the premium house, you had to make a lot of money. 'Cause I perceived my dad as being successful, but like we didn't have those things. I was like, oh, you've gotta crush to be that. And then the last thing I learned is that like wealth is only important if you actually use it and enjoy it. So when I would buy something nice, I would like use the heck out of it. Just every day doing that thing. Like if I bought a new bike, I rode that bike every day. Type thing. I think those are the main lessons I took away from it.

Moving on to college and afterward, how did that hard work ethic start to show up in your life?

Yeah, I mean, I have always been just a hard worker, and I'll be honest, I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. There's a lot of things I'm not very great at, but what I learned early on is that hard work coupled with like enthusiasm and passion and a little bit of like charisma can go a long way. And so those were those— that's what I practiced is like, okay, work hard, but then find the back door, find the way to do the cool things without having to pay for them all or get an invite from someone who had a lot of money that needed a friend. Like I was always looking for little angles And it worked really well, you know, because I had all these well-heeled friends, but they needed the kid that could actually keep up and that would bring a lot of fun to the table. So I was like, that's me, let's go!

I know what to do in this situation. Yeah, I, I know where my value lies.

Totally.

And, and what was your first foray into sales?

Um, so I've always been kind of a natural leader. Like, I, I was like captain of my soccer team and all that kind of stuff. And so I, I learned to like corral people pretty early on. I think my biggest foray into sales was when I, when I got into college, um, and I started— it wasn't necessarily traditional sales. Like I said, not the best at school, right? So I would go and find the cutest, smartest girl in every class, that I would go to, and I would say, hey, listen, I'm not going to make it through this class. I need a lot of help, and I would like you to help me. They'd be like, what? I'm like, yeah, there's no way I'm getting out of here with like over a D unless you have some assistance. So I got really good at selling. I would be funny and fun and like keep them entertained during class and during study hours, and in return they would teach me or do the work for me. And That was my first foray into, okay, I get there's actually a different way of doing this instead of just doing it the hard way.

I love it. And you've sold some interesting products over your time.

Oh, have I ever. So, I mean, I've sold everything from gym memberships to life insurance to Jesus to SaaS to physical products. I've really sold everything. I added it up the other day. I have been pretty much since my freshman year of college actively selling now for over 20-plus years, um, and I love it. Sales is amazing.

I think one of the, the keys to being a great salesman is rejection. So how did you learn that lesson?

Oh, this is a great one. So I served a Mormon mission, and for those that don't know, a Mormon mission is Essentially selling Jesus door-to-door for 2 years. You can go all over the world. All my friends went to exotic places like Peru and Japan and like Germany. I went to North Carolina. Turns out North Carolina, pretty good on Jesus. Everyone's pretty sold up on Jesus. Uh, so for 2 years I went door-to-door and got really good at trying to get people to listen to me. And all I got was rejection for 2 full years, about 8 hours a day. So you learn really, really fast. You're either going to be able to not take it personally and roll with the punches and try to get incrementally better. Like if I could be on that doorstep for 30 seconds, how could I make that a minute? How could I make that a minute and a half? Could I get a glass of water? And now we're talking for 5 minutes. So it became a game for me of like, just incremental wins, and then constantly looking at the process. I was like, okay, we did that one pitch that didn't land at all. Let's try this little tweak. Let's adjust it. Let's get the hook right. Let's see if we can do something fun or curious on the porch that will maybe get them to open up. So for 2 years, every single day I spent iterating, getting rejected, trying little micro tweaks. And I think honestly, that time cemented my skills as a sales rep more than anything ever.

Yeah. I mean, I can't even imagine. A, you're not going anywhere. You got plenty of time to iterate on your pitch. Yeah, right. But I mean, you know, I cut my own teeth in cold calling, so I definitely have been there, but it's tough. Like, like as, as much as we can joke about it now and look back on those days smiling, like it's not that easy to have the door slammed in your face. How did you handle that?

There, there's this interesting thing when you are deep in Christianity or in religion. It is— it wasn't a job, right? So that was the biggest thing, is I felt like I'm serving a higher calling, right? I'm getting people to accept Jesus and hopefully make their lives better. So there's a lot of social programming that went in to help you deal with that. Like, if this was a sales job, I would have quit after 2 months. Like, whatever commission you're paying me is not worth this. But when you add that component that you're trying to help people find Jesus, the rejection becomes a lot easier, right? So that's a component there that definitely needs to be factored in, is the social programming. I'm not going to say brainwashing, but something similar to that. Uh, but, uh, that helps a lot. With that. The second thing is realizing that it's all a game, right? And that's where that— the fun component would happen. And that if you can turn anything into a game or keep it light, you could do it forever.

Yeah, I love that, man. So, so how did you take your, your door-to-door sales skills and translate those to the real world?

Yeah, I mean, it's— there's two principles, right? Which is one, you got to listen to people. Because people tell you all these things. And when I, when I train my sales team, when I do my sales calls, I'm always listening for— there's what people are saying and then there's the layers below it. And the layers below it are where the meat is. It's where what people are really meaning when they say stuff. And so pausing and not being so focused on your process, being like, wait a second, tell me more, a little bit about that, like getting curious. That would get you on a doorstep for another 5 minutes. They would talk about their vintage car in the driveway or a picture of them, of their family in Hawaii. And you just had to ask one or two questions. Now you're not this stranger anymore. You're like someone that's curious about their life. So listening is like absolutely crucial. The second thing is asking good open-ended questions and that everyone wants to talk about themselves. So you couple those things together, listening and open-ended questions, And that's the biggest thing I learned from that mission. Applied that directly to my first job out of college, which was at Adobe selling SaaS software.

Tell me about that.

I mean, that was— we called it the country club. We moved into this brand new building in Utah. That's where I started my career. They had a climbing gym, a beautiful cafeteria. Everything was all designed. We would go, we'd go make a couple of cold calls and then hang out most of the day like it was. Epic for an entry-level job. So I did that, climbed through the ranks very quickly because I like sales and I'm good at it. Um, made it to senior enterprise account executive in like 3 or 4 years, which is kind of the top of like an individual contributor in a SaaS sales org. Um, and it was great. I learned a ton and that's how I actually got into e-commerce.

What was that next move like?

So in e-commerce, I was working with big retailers like Gap, Restoration Hardware, Men's Warehouse, Victoria's Secret, Victoria's Secret, Williams-Sonoma. Those are my customers. And we would design these insane e-commerce experiences, and then these companies would give us millions of dollars. And then we check back in 6 months later, hey, how's it going? They're like, we haven't even opened the box. I'm like, what? You guys just paid us millions of dollars for this thing and it's amazing. And they're like, yeah, what? I don't know, got lost in the paper shuffle. Guess we're not going to do it. They'd be like, well, we got this new thing. They're like, tell us about it. And then they buy that and not unwrap it. And after about a couple of years of this, I was like, there's got to be someone that's going to buy this cool thing and then actually use it. And that's when I got exposed to like mid-market and, and entry-level e-com. And that's where I started my first agency.

Yeah. So, uh, And on the finance side, were you making a lot of money at Adobe? Like, how, like, what was your first taste of success?

Yeah, I remember when I got my first job offer. I mean, up to that point I had been dead broke, right? Where I'd have $200 in my checking account. I'd be like, I'm good. Like, we are rocking and rolling. Do I have enough money to get to the ski hill today? Yeah, I think everyone's gonna pitch in $5 gas. That'll last me the rest of the week. We can go 3 times. Like, I did not need a lot of money to live a really good life. And when I got that first paycheck at Adobe, I think my starting salary was $35K base and $35K commission. So like $70K. I was like, we're good forever. I'll buy a house. I'm going to raise 3 kids. Like, I'm, I'm rich. And that slowly wore off over time. But, um, getting those first couple paychecks and commission checks was insane. I was like, this is mental.

So you made it?

I made it. Yeah. And then I got married and expenses started to creep in and we moved from Utah to New York City and I felt very poor very quickly. once we got to New York. So all these money stories started coming up, which, you know, you and I have gone in depth in Unbreakable Wealth and spent 2 years unraveling these things. So like, you know, a lot of those unravelings, it's hard, you know, I can't talk about all those things in, in 5 minutes, but 2 big things came up for me that we've talked and, and great about the, the first one is that My value is directly tied to my income and my ability to make money, like on a personal, deeply soul level, right? So that was the first thing that started coming up when we moved to New York. I'm like, well, I'm not valuable anymore because I, I'm not a high earner.

And where did that come from?

So going back to a little bit of my religious upbringing, and I have wonderful parents, right? I don't have like this gnarly childhood trauma, but everything was earned. And especially in the religion I grew up in, a lot of your value is based on what you did. It was all action-based. So if you followed all the rules, well, you're a good kid. We can love you. If you do all the things, you get the grades, you're the Eagle Scout, you're the captain of the track team, which I was all those things, then you deserve love. You've earned it. Like, we— you're great, right? And then that started to creep over into finances. Well, if you're, you know, in the top 10% of the sales force, like, we love you, you're great. But if you're in the bottom 10%, ooh, we have some serious things we got to talk about. And that was directly came from religion, um, where if you weren't doing the things, you weren't going to early morning seminary, reading your scriptures, showing it up all the church meetings, you know, being the guy that's making all the right choices, the community was like, ooh, got to keep an eye on him, he may not make it, right? So my worth was always tied to my outputs. That was a really hard one to unravel, and, and I'm still unraveling that one.

Definitely. I mean, and, and, you know, you, you— I, I love the way you can bring humor into this, because this is actually a story that is so deeply wired, not just through religion, but, but into our society in general. I mean, this is a different flavor of my same story growing up, right? We, we are told, I think, at a, at a very societal level that our achievements are worth. And if you're good at stuff, great news, it works. When you're on, when you're on the come up, and you're, and you're doing things and winning stuff. Everybody loves you. And then you move to New York. How does that start to unfold?

It quickly became apparent that I was never going to be able to earn or compete with all these people. Like, there's no way. I'm a lowly sales rep at a, you know, Fortune 500 enterprise SaaS company. Like, there's no way I'm going to make $1 million a year. Like, that was impossible. And so it quickly became evident to me that I'm like, I need to work harder. So because that's all I knew, I'm like, you just go harder. And so I kept pushing there, kept pushing there, and just kept getting met with roadblocks. I couldn't get above that because Adobe's smart. They know exactly how to structure a comp plan to keep you right in that $300,000 to $350,000 range. That's where they're very comfortable with you. If you want to go above that, you either need to get really lucky or never ever see your family. It's kind of one or the other. So this started to play out, and then I went from Adobe to another SaaS company, ran into the same thing, and then it really started compound when I started my first business, you know, and was the, the sole owner. you know, I had a partner at the time and it became very clear. I was like, oh, this is hard. And to make a decent amount of money is challenging, right? So what did I do? I went back to the same things as work really hard and try to bring some charisma and some sales skill to the, to the table because that's really all I had. But those stories, I mean, and you and I met at the pinnacle when, when I was— say, from the outside you definitely couldn't tell I was falling apart, but I was falling apart.

And, and if you would, what, what is falling apart? What— take, take me inside. Yeah, because we, we saw the rosy veneer, uh, as so often is the case. What does it look like underneath?

So at this time, I was running a 7-figure agency, uh, in the e-com digital landscape. I had 3 kids. I had a house in Santa Cruz. I was on a heliskiing trip, right? So like, you look at on the outside, you're like, this guy's made it. On the inside, I was so afraid that I was going to lose everything. I was afraid that I wasn't worthwhile. Like, I didn't, didn't bring anything to the table to anybody. So a lot of self-doubt, a lot of harsh judgment, and then a overriding stress that, like, I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't get to that 8-figure or that 9-figure or that next deal. Like, I was just so in my head and hurting on the inside and so judgmental of myself. So that's like the inside part of what was happening. The veneer— guy's a rock star. On the inside, could barely sleep.

Yeah. And I think this is such a critical thing to share because I think so many successful entrepreneurs are trapped in some version of this thing.

Yeah.

How did you start to become aware that this wasn't working?

It became aware in mostly my home life is like my kids would talk to me or my wife would be saying something and I couldn't hear anything they were saying. Like I was just so wrapped up about this next deal or this client that was going to churn or this next revenue goal. Like, and I worked at home, so I had an office in my backyard and I'd be out there for, you know, 8, 9 hours a day. And when I'd come and hang out with the kids, like I was still at work, I was still on Zoom calls. In my head and I was like, oh, this is not good. Like my daughter's trying to tell me something and I can't hear her because I'm so worried about money. Like, this isn't good. That's where, that's where things start. I was like, I have to change this. And then the other thing that happened is I joined this networking group where I met a bunch of other— and that's how we met, through Baby Bathwater Institute. I started meeting all these other entrepreneurs and some of them were much farther along in the personal development journey than I was. And I started listening to some of the things they were saying. I was like, oh, that's, that's not what's happening for me. I don't feel that way. And so started learning and asking questions and, and being vulnerable when I felt like it was safe to be vulnerable. And people like opening up a little bit and people like, oh, I see where you're at. So it was a combination of things that were happening at home, the network that I started to get myself exposed to, and just this general, like, unhappiness where, where I was at.

What's so interesting, right, is you're stuck in this loop of achievement equals love.

Yeah.

And by all external markers, you've done— I mean, you built a 7-figure agency. Yeah, that's knocking it out of the park by, by most anyone's standard.

Yep.

When that didn't work, how did that feel? Like what? Like that, that's gotta be a little crazy making.

It was like, let's say for example, you went to Disneyland and all the rides were broken and you walk in, you're like, this is the best day of my life. And they're like, oh, well, hey, Thunder Mountain's closed. And so is Space Mountain. And Indiana Jones, like, we had to shut that one down too. Like, can I get a churro? They're like, we're sold out. So you're like walking around and you're like, this is empty and miserable and I hate this. And multiple times I went to my wife, I was like, should I just go back to Adobe? Like, I was a lot happier there. And so it was really disjointed, but I knew that if I could, if I could solve some of these internal things and if I could get the business where it wasn't all reliant on me, there was a better path out there. I could see it. I could see it with these other people. So there was hope. I did not know the journey to get there, though. I did— I didn't see a path, right? That was the hardest part.

Yeah. And was there a decision point or a low point where you decided, all right, this is it?

Yeah, uh, I think is when our team at the time— I had grown it to about 15 people, which is a lot of humans that are asking every 2 weeks for a paycheck. I was working just insane hours, like I was holding this agency together with talent and duct tape, and it was very, very stressful. And I went on this, this networking event where it was through Baby Bathwater again, and, and I was so scared and just hunting for deals anywhere I could find them. And I started connecting with a couple of my now very close friends who felt so at ease with themselves and like everything that was going on in their life. And a lot of them weren't, weren't as even as successful as I was. Like on paper, it looked like I was winning, but I was like, wait, maybe money and hard work don't necessarily lead to fulfillment and internal joy. And that was a big unlock. And then I could feel all of these shifts and shatters inside, and I was like, oh no, we've, we've un— we've done something that can't be undone. And that was also scary, right, is that, that shift. But it was at that moment where I was like, this has to change, it's unsustainable, I can't live like this.

So what do you do in that moment? You, you're, you're kind of pantheon that you've built of money and success will make it all better starts to crack.

Yeah.

What is that like?

Incredibly unstable. Uh, and that's when I had to go back to these thoughts of like, all right, money does not equal happiness or fulfillment or joy. And actually, if I look at my ledger, there are all of these things that I am not that appreciative of. I was not appreciative of the great relationship I had with my wife. She loved me. She didn't care about any of these things. Uh, all my kids were healthy and loved being around me. I didn't have any stock in that. Um, I had a great network of friends that I had met both inside of my networking group and through my community and at home in Santa Cruz. Like, I wasn't grateful for any of that. So I started getting back to like, wait, What is the purpose of life? And for me, I've defined this as really amazing experiences with friends and family and living life deeply. And how I define deeply is intentional about the moments that you're creating and really enjoy them, like in the moment. Like, and it can be as simple as sitting around the fire with your friends. Best moment ever if you're there. And so I started having the shift where I started looking at the things that I had not taken stock of and said, you know what, that's where the richness lies. I also hired coaches. I joined Unbreakable Wealth, which was a massive shift, you know, and you got to see my transformation. I remember a conversation we had at the heli lodge. We were like, hey dude, how you doing? And it was the most like I didn't know at the time, but you were saying, hey, I see you, I see what you're going through, let me offer some stuff. And you started giving me some tips and some advice. And then from there, when you rolled out your first retreat, I signed up. And that was a— that was an arm where we started to climb out of the valley.

Thank you for the— for the unpaid promotion here. But it is, I think, a really beautiful thing to have, you know, watching your journey unfold. Because on one hand, you're one of the most fun people I know.

Thank you.

Like, like you, you bring the party everywhere you go. And I was watching you do that on these heli trips. And yet there's some darkness, there's some heaviness.

Yeah.

That you can see just below the surface.

Yep.

And as that starts to uncork, it's, it's not always a straight line. It's not always a straight jump. So, so what happens from there?

If anybody is, is in a similar spot or can relate to this story, it really helps to get support. Uh, and a lot of times we look for support with people that actually can't help us. So I would like talk to my wife about this stuff. She doesn't know she's been on the same journey with me the whole time. Like a lot of her stories become my stories and vice versa. Like, we needed— I needed outside support. And that's where investing in networks like Unbreakable Wealth, networks like Baby Bathwater. And then I even hired for a little bit of time, 3 or 4 months at a time, some personal coaches to help me unravel some of these stories, almost like therapy. And I firmly believe that if you're feeling a lot of these things, You can watch some YouTube videos, you can read some books, but it's going to be really hard to unravel them because you need that person that's kind of walked through this stuff, especially in entrepreneurship, and could say, hey, I see you, here's some things you need to do, I want you to do them and tell me how they're going next week, right? And, and that's really important. And that's what I got through Unbreakable Wealth, Baby Bathwater, some of these personal coaches. So I think it's really hard to dig yourself out of these holes personally.

Yeah. And, and what about the role of, of community? Uh, because it turns out you're not the only entrepreneur in these networking groups that might be feeling a little underwater.

Yeah, I, I think one of the things— this goes back to my sales— is I really value community, friends, network, and I put a lot in into the people that put a lot into me. And so over the last 5 years, I have formed just incredible relationships where I can send them a voice note, I can send them a video, or I can send or call them, say, hey man, here's what I'm feeling. I just want to run this by you. Does this seem accurate? Am I out of my lane? Are these my money stories talking, or is this my entrepreneur— like, where is this? And I have sounding boards and people that actually see me for my true value, which is I like to have fun. I'm a very giving person. I really love people. Like, they're very non-transactional relationships. Those networks have changed my life where I can now get really good feedback, be like, hey Taylor, actually you are kind of wrong here. I'm like, oh great, I can fix that. Or being like, hey, you may want to look at it from this perspective because that perspective is maybe a little outdated.

Yeah, so cool. And, and the other piece is just like some of the commiseration, right? Like, turns out entrepreneurship is hard, hard. And chances are, if you have, if you've built and cultivated this community, you're not the only one banging your head against the wall.

Yeah.

What was it like for you to find out that like, hey, you're sort of not alone in this, in this thing?

It felt like going back to the Disneyland analogy. Like, oh, we opened a ride. Like, what? Where? It's over here. And as I was standing in line, I was like all these other people, like, you found out about this ride too? Like, yeah. And so it felt like a coming home, like, and, and I've made really good connections with both males and females, but it feels like, you know, Claire, my current business partner, it was so funny when we formed Best Practice Media. I had a previous agency and we merged together. And I was like, hey, Claire, like, I've been through some shit. Like, oh, she's like, yeah, me too. One of our first business meetings, we just sat around and drank some wine and we're like, I'm really glad you're here. I'm like, yeah, I'm glad you're here too. You know? So just having that, that commiseration among business partners, friends, it changes everything.

Yeah, totally. And you know, again, having the pleasure of watching your journey unfold from a very front row seat perspective, you're still doing the same work that you were doing.

Yeah.

But you're a lot happier now. Why?

I think the two big shifts came down to number one, uh, hard work does not equal success or money or whatever. Uh, it just doesn't— that equation doesn't add up anymore. And so now what I focus on are: can I create leverage? Can I create value? And can I be focused on the things that I have placed at the highest level of my value ladder? And those are health, family, friends, community, and good times. And like, that's what I'm after. I don't need to make $1 million a year to actually have more of those than most people where I'm like, I'm crushing. So I got really in alignment with how much money do I actually need to make to live an incredibly good, fulfilled life while preparing for the future and doing all the things. And so I've recalibrated that wealth is not just a money figure. It's actually all-inclusive. That was the biggest shift. And that allowed me to be really happy where I was like, oh, actually I do like going to the beach in the afternoon with my kids. And yeah, it, it's really expensive to live in my neighborhood, which is on the sand, but that's a really good trade-off. I'd rather do that than do like one big vacation a year. Cuz now every day is a vacation. So it's just getting really clear on how How do you define wealth? And, and then making sure you stick to that. The second thing that I've done is I've done a lot of work to just love me. Like, you know what? You're good right now as you are, and you don't need to prove that to anyone. You're fine. And just really feeling that, uh, and that's helped me be a lot happier.

And for someone listening, Goes, oh, I probably need to take that leap. I probably need to dive into that work, but I don't even know what that looks like. What would you tell them?

The first thing is find some people that are happy, like really happy, and ask them what are they doing. And it'll come down to two things. One, they've gotten clear on what matters to them and they're not just chasing the blank American dream, which is going to set you up for failure. And two, they probably have a really good community. And so you need to find those things. I mean, obviously Unbreakable Wealth is a no-brainer. Get in there, join the community, be part of the conversation. Second one, Baby Bathwater, no-brainer. It's not that expensive for the insane value that you're going to take home. And then if those aren't your— find another community, but find it with people that are actually living good, fulfilled lives, not people that are out there being like, I have a 9-figure business, like, look at my bankroll. It's probably the wrong community.

This is something I, you know, obviously you don't have to join my community. Go find your own. I built the one that I wish that I had, and it turns out it's pretty awesome. So I'm stoked about that. But the thing you're touching on here that I really want to pull apart is be careful who you take advice from, because there are, you know, with the rise of social media and the personal brand, there are a lot of people giving advice. Yeah. Make sure you want their life.

Here's a really interesting thing. When I was in Adobe doing SaaS sales, I started asking all of my, you VPs, the people 3 or 4 levels above me that were making good money, started asking about their life. How many days you on the road? What do you do for fun? What does your weekends look like? And nothing they said was appealing. Nothing. I'm like, that sounds miserable. Your life sounds terrible, actually. And the more that I dug in, and this was not just 1 or 2 people, It was everybody in the whole organization. So I was like, wait, this is my path. That's where I'm headed. I don't want that. And that's what really started me to jump and join, like start my own business and go on this. So you gotta be really careful on like, where is your highway leading?

Yeah, it's, it's so critical, I think, to, um, first of all, you know, I don't love goals as, as a metric because it, they're they tend to be extrinsic, external validation focused. But you need to have an idea of where you're— what direction, what the vector of your life is. And I had a similar experience in the Navy. You know, I looked at, you know, people that were above me and people like, can't you wait to be there? And I was like, no, that does not look like the life that I want. I got to do something different.

Yeah.

And so many people just accept the default path. How do you start to change that?

You've got to get clear on what you're trying to do. Like where, like, and I think this comes through the process, and this is one of the things I actually love about Unbreakable Wealth and what a lot of the personal work we've done, which is it is not a one-size-fits-all. Like for me, I want my day-to-day life to be like, not that I'm on vacation, but I want it to have lots of things that I can look forward to. So if I've done, let's say, 5 hours of Zoom calls, I'm pretty exhausted. I want to go take my son to the ocean. I want to go jump in the ocean. I want to watch him skimboard and I want to watch the sunset. That's worth a lot of money to me. And so that's where I invest, right, in those little day-to-day things where other people may like, you know, I want to work super hard for 3 months and then I want to check out and go on a 5-star resort vacation for 2 weeks. So that's not my jam, but that could be your jam. But getting clear on what actually you value and then tying that into your daily lifestyle— if you can't do that, you're never going to get out of the rat race.

Yeah, I love that. It's, uh, it really is getting clear. I mean, I think the recipe for success has to start with getting clear on what success looks like.

Yeah.

So I know we've kind of circled this a little bit, but what does wealth mean to you now?

So I actually spent about a year and a half defining what I call my, my North Star, which is what am I trying to do in this life? Because unless some dramatic things happen, like, I'm not going to be the richest guy in the room. Like, that's just not going to happen. And So I, I started looking at like, what actually lights me up? And there's a couple things that light me up. It's, it's having amazing experiences in nature with my family and friends, and then running a business that allows me to use my talents at their highest and best use. And honestly, I still have work to do, but I am living those things through and through. Uh, I go camping with my kids at least once a month. I go on epic adventures with my friends. We go surfing in Mexico, we do ski trips, we go on really cool overlanding adventures. I'm outside pretty much every single day doing something, swimming in the ocean or riding my bike or playing in the pool. And so, and I'm doing this with the people that I love, the people that I want to, want to engage with. And the second thing is that on the work front, I get to empower— we have over 30 employees at Best Practice Media. We have over 80 current clients that we're supporting. I'm helping a lot of people. We're giving our internal team amazing training, amazing success in a really great work environment, and we're helping clients build their businesses in like really foundational ways. Like, so when I look at those, I'm like, I'm pretty successful now, but I've defined that. Still not the richest guy on my block, but that doesn't matter. I'm in the ocean every day. He's not.

It's, it's, it's such a cool thing, especially to hear you describe the, the service component, because it's my fundamental belief that there's no true wealth without service. How did you start to discover that for yourself?

That's a good question. More than the money, it's cool to see impact, right? A lot of our employees, they were not being considered by other places, right? And we've developed them into insanely talented humans that are now managing people and building systems and doing all this cool stuff. I'm like, whoa, it's amazing. But someone had to give them a chance. Like, someone had to create a container. And so for me and Claire, my business partner, a big part of what we do is How can we have a meaningful impact both on our employees and our customers? Then that's valuable for us. Like, we love that, right? But we had to get clear on that too, because there's no dollar figure assigned to that, right? It's like, oh, you see half your team thriving. Like, we have some of the best employees out there, I think. And I mean, we get rewarded by having a great team, but I don't know, like, no one's handing out awards for that.

Yeah. I mean, it has to come from from inside. And, you know, there has to be a certain trade-off. If you're only focused on the bottom line or enriching yourself, like, it's really hard to make those kind of investments in people.

Yeah. The interesting thing is, like, wealth is not single dimension. It never is. And that's the trap for a lot of people. When I get the next house, when I get that next supercar, when I get that next promotion, when I make $1 million in a year, I'll be happy. My friends will love me. Like, everything will change. Nothing's going to change. You still take all of those terrible money stories and all of your baggage and you bring it to that next plateau. And literally, it's the same. So until you define what actually matters to you and then start aligning your life in that direction, you're going to be stuck in that loop.

It's so well said. And, you know, I know one of the things that, you know, can be tough for the, you know, is the fact that, you know, business is a never-ending problem-solving loop. Right. So how do you deal with the stress of the fact that, like, there's no done? Like, you know, until the day you sell and ride off in the sunset, like, there's going to be problems coming down the pipe. How do you start to process that or relate to that?

Yeah, this is actually one of the things that I still struggle with. It's— this is a— you know me well, Mike. Uh, this is something that I, I have really still perplexes me to this day. But here's a couple things I've learned. One, I realized that we are at our best typically when we are striving, when we're working towards something. And I've realized that the magic is in the process. Never the destination. I'll close a big deal and, and actually now I get a little sad because I was like, I really liked that process. I actually like the process more than the outcome. We're like, great, now I got to service this client. That's a whole nother thing. But like, I've actually started to really enjoy the process of doing the sales, training the team, working on that. And that's really fulfilling for me, right? So the fact that you think this destination is going to be the solution, it never is. The view is— it doesn't, it doesn't change anything. So enjoying the process. And then the second thing is realizing that as you go through these things, as you striving, you become a better person. You're sharpening the blade. You are becoming the actual outcome, which is wisdom and empathy and kindness and caring. And the ability for me, it's to hold space for other people now. Be like, hey man, I see you. You okay over there? Just like you did for me, right? So I want to pass that down.

Well, that, that warms my little heart. And I, and I see you doing that and deeply caring about our team members and our, and members of our community. And, uh, it's, it's really great to just watch this. Process unfold. Because the thing that strikes me so much is that you were always that person. You were that person the day that I met you. There was just some shit covering it up, right? And so it's not actually becoming a different person, it's shedding all the shit that is not you. And I've watched you do a beautiful job of that over the last 5, 7 years. I'm not even sure how long it's been at this point.

Thank you.

Do you feel more like you now, or what? Just kind of give me a sense of what that's like.

Yeah, I feel like now I can show up in rooms and just be me, like unapologetically. I used to just— I'm a chameleon. Like, you could put me in a church meeting, you could put me in a raucous bar, you you could put me at a punk rock show and you're like, that guy kind of belongs here, right? But I've realized now that I, I don't have to really act for anybody, and I can like make jokes and have fun with people that used to very much intimidate me. People I was like, wow, you are, you know, worth a trillion dollars, and this really high-up dude, and everyone on social media loves you. Like, now I can make fun of that person.

And they actually laugh and they deserve it, probably.

And they realize it's not coming from a place of malice. Like, you're like, oh, Taylor's good. He knows who he is and his value and what he's doing, and they want to be around that. So it shifted for me. I'm not— it's going to sound a little woo-woo, but I'm now more in alignment with who I am and my purpose, and that is quickly attracting the right people that are like, I see that, I want that in my life. Whereas people that I used to like, kind of like try to pull them in, like, oh, let's be friends. Those people have drifted away.

Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, become the person you'd want to be friends with. Yes. Right.

Very much so.

And you are that for so many people. I also want to get to how you think about home life, family, because I know this is such an important core value for you.

What are your—

some of your philosophies around, around parenthood and relationship?

Yeah, for me, I want to create experiences that, one, are outside, because I believe that nature is absolutely crucial to healing. It's really hard to feel better about yourself when you're doom-scrolling Instagram. Like, you're just not. Like, you've got to go outside and feel the water in the air. And so But one of the core tenets I have is I'm always trying to get into nature with people that I love. And like for you, like we're going to go mountain biking this afternoon. Like, I'm really looking forward to that. It's going to be amazing and it bonds us together. So one is, is I try to take my kids outside as much as possible and do physical things where we can connect. And that is really special. The second thing is I'm, I'm really trying to listen and see what my family and my friends need and do the best I can to be there for them for what they need. So like, for example, right now, you know, my daughter's 9 and she loves to do art. So I'll just spend some time doing art with her and just asking her open-ended questions and just seeing how she's doing. And instead of me trying to force something, just be open to it. And that's been really, really fulfilling. So I think my parenting advice is go outside and then to just try to see where they're at and what they need.

I love this. I think there's so many parents that are trying to twist and contort their kid into what they want them to be. And for me, it's figuring out what my kid is into and then me being into that with them. Yeah, right. You know, my son loves fishing right now. I am the world's worst fisherman, but man, if he asked me to go fishing with him at the pond, I'm out the door. Let's go in a heartbeat. Right. And I don't need him to go connect with the things I like. I want to meet him on his level.

Yeah.

And I just think that's so critical.

Yeah.

How do you do that with your kids?

Well, one thing, and I— this is actually one of my big pet peeves. I think most parents way overschedule their kids. So there's no time to be a kid doing like 4, especially where I live in Southern Orange County, California. You gotta be like on a college D1 track by 4. I'm like, what are we doing? So first you've gotta create some free time where they can just be themselves. So, uh, that's the first thing. We have a lot of free time in our family and I really value that where it's like, hey, do you want to go skateboard? Do you want to go ride bikes? Do you want to go to the beach? What are you into? Sometimes, like, they just want to sit and do a puzzle. Like, all right, let's do that. So without the space, you can't create the connection. The second thing is I try to put as many options on the table as possible. So in our garage, which is really the only part of the house I care about, it is loaded with activities. You can skateboard, you can surf, you can skimboard, you can snorkel, you can ride a bike, you can ride an e-bike. Everything's in there. If you want to do it, I'm right there with you. I will teach you how to do it. I'll answer questions. I'll stand back, whatever you need. But all the equipment's there and it's crazy. They start doing it because it's there. So that's my other hack is like, just create a plethora of options and then let's see where they go.

Totally. And, and let them connect with it on their own, right? Rather than pushing it down and being like, I signed you up for skimboarding lessons every day this week. Yeah, right. Which is what— which is, I think, how a lot of parents approach it. Like, they're pretty sure their kid's a prodigy. Yes. And, and so then they, they, they schedule fun.

Totally. It's tough, kind of rough. Like, my son, he didn't like skimboarding. He's, he's really enjoys it now, but that actually came when I got a skimboard, and man, Turns out when you're 40 trying to skimboard, you can get really wrecked. Uh, so I started skimboarding. He's like, I want to try. I'm like, here's my board, give it a shot. And then he started doing it and now it's like his favorite thing to do. So I'll just go and watch him now because I've fell too many times. It really hurts a lot.

It's kind of the worst.

It is the worst.

So getting outside, you know, allowing their kid, your kids, to discover, uh, who they are sort of on their own with unstructured time. Any other keys to success around, around parenting? Because I just watch you being such a great dad. I know you have so much to share on this topic.

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is I'm just— well, two things. One, I try to do a lot of touch, uh, hold them, hug them, kiss them, tell them that I love them, tell them I'm proud of them. If they do do something cool, like on the skateboard or bike, I'm like, that was really cool. Like, also be there to support them. Um, and I think that really connects us. I can feel them really enjoy that. And I enjoy it too. Like, if I've had a hard day, like cuddling with my 2-year-old is the best. It's like an instantaneous good luck charm. Uh, so the touch has been really nice. And then I said, I think the second thing that I've been really intentional about is not trying to force them in any direction. Just be like, okay, what do you want to do? Like, both my boys have become very passionate about camping. They ask me every day, when are we going to go camping? Well, let's see, let me find out when we can go. And so, um, but just creating those opportunities without pushing too hard has been really great.

Super cool. And, and What would you— what advice, if you could go back 5 or 10 years, right, what would you go back and tell that younger version of you that was maybe grinding at Adobe or, you know, grinding trying to get your first agency off the ground? What would you tell that guy now?

First off, I give a hug and I'd be like, hey dude, you're doing great and you don't need to match anybody else. You can just be you and take a breath and look at the sun and be happy. Like, this is the best time of your life right now, right? And, and I was still— I still had a lot of great experiences, but a lot of it was robbed because I was so scared and so worried about money and status and making it. I would just go back to that guy and be like, 'Hold down. Now is a great time and you're doing it all right and I love you and everything's going to work out better than you ever imagined.' I mean, amen.

That's, that's, that's sort of a mic drop moment. I, I can't imagine a better thing to tell a 10-year-ago version of myself either. I, you know, it's, it's such an awesome thing to be able to work with friends and you know, this community that we built and we lift each other up. You know, you're in my community, you're business partners with my wife. Like, like, you know, people worry about like working with friends or, you know, kind of intermingling things. I think our experience really kind of shows what's possible. How do you think about that and what's that been like for you?

Yeah, you know, it's tough when you're running a business because there's money and stress and a lot of things can come into that. And I've always tried to be really, uh, grace forward. And here's what I mean by that. It's really easy to come up with stories in our head about what our partners or our employees are doing without actually asking them. And, and a lot of times those stories are usually not good stories. We're usually never assuming the best. So two things that have allowed us to do this with a lot of beauty is one We have really open conversations. What are you working on? I need help with this. Great. I'll step in and do it. Like, that's incredible. The second thing is that realizing that the stress that comes from business and the stress that comes from running organizations, a lot of times it's very little to do with us, actually. It's, it's just kind of comes with the territory and not deflecting that onto our partners. And then actually be like, hey, I'm a little stressed. They're like, yeah, I am too, actually. Like, oh, okay, so you're worried about the same things I worry about? Yes. And then we can actually come up with a plan, and we're not like, oh well, you know, she didn't do this one thing, and like building up that resentment. So keeping open communication and leading with grace, I think, has been the key to our success.

And, and for me, if I may, I just think it's also like doing shit with people that you love, it's, it's just better.

Oh, way better.

And, you know, something we touched on before, like, the nature of the work that you're doing is not much different.

Yeah.

But when you're around people that light you up, just makes it better.

It's, it's way better. The other thing that happens is, like, because we're connecting on so many different levels and working on so many things, you do get a little bit of of hidden X power and momentum that you wouldn't get otherwise. It makes the journey way better. And that's really, so me and one of my close buddies came up with this saying, "All we have is the journey." That's really all we have. Like, let's say we sell Best Practice Media one day. That'll be a one-day thing. We'll celebrate, we'll have some champagne, we'll do some high fives, and then we'll be like, "Now what?" But that journey is where the beauty is. That's all we have.

I love it, man. Taylor, thanks for being such a good friend. Thanks for being such a rad business partner and thanks for coming on the show.

I loved it. Thank you so much, Mike. This has been amazing.

Cheers, brother.