What Your Kids Actually Need from You

Welcome to Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown. I'm here with Kevin Dahlstrom. And the whole idea of this show is just to have the conversations that we're having anyway behind closed doors and letting you into our inner world here. So today we're starting with a quote that Kevin posted recently. "The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of the parents." That's Carl Jung. Kevin, what do you have to say about that?

Um, man, Young is full of bangers, isn't he?

I think he's the original banger.

The original. Yeah. He would have done so well on X back in the day. Um, yeah. So, um, man, I love that. I love that quote. Um, because what I've observed over the years is that so many parents, when they have kids, they sort of, um, surrender their own life. End their life as a couple and they dedicate their entire life to their children, which, you know, the intent there is obviously super positive. Um, but the, the consequence of that can be sort of negative. And the reason is that, um, kids don't need a martyr. They need a model. They need you to model the behaviors that, um, you know, healthy behaviors, behaviors, behaviors you want to instill in them. And so look, the first thing I always say anytime I have a discussion about parenting, I have to say that the disclaimer is anyone who says they have parenting figured out is a charlatan. Um, I'm not going to claim to have it figured out, Mike. I'm guessing you're not going to claim to have it figured out. We've all made huge mistakes, but I will say, you know, now that my— I'm an empty nester, I just became an empty nester and, you know, you know, that's something I'm big on, Mike, is I make my judgments based on results. I like to look at the evidence and I'm proud to say, knock on wood, my, my girls at ages 19 and 21, the product has turned out pretty good. So I can only share what has worked for me. And I'll say, you know, related to this, the Jung quote, um, is that I think what a mistake that a lot of parents make, especially young parents, is they tend to focus on specific behaviors. Like you need to study more, you need to get better with money or whatever. And to me, those are all like tactics. The strategy that I always tried to focus on is, um, instilling good judgment because that one thing, if you do that one thing, everything else is downstream from good judgment. If you're just a good decision maker, then whether it comes to money or them finding a partner or their career or whatever, if they are good at making decisions, then that, that, that's something that applies to everything. And so the way to teach that, as, as Jung implied, is by living it. You know, we need to model the behaviors that, um, that we want our kids to have. And it's easy to say, hard to do, right?

Yeah, I think, I think you've nailed it. And I take this quote, uh, from Jung slightly differently, which is I think so many parents project their unlived dreams on their kids, or sometimes even worse, what's worked for the parent, they project that on their kids. So, so here's a great example is so many entrepreneurial parents, like have this need for their kids to become entrepreneurs. And I think you should only become an entrepreneur if you're unemployable. Like for most people, the stress is just simply not worth it. Yes, there is massive upside and entrepreneurship is a choice, but like you have to have the right personality for it. And I think the vast majority of people will be better off finding a really good job that serves the life that they want to live because entrepreneurship is so hard and yet, you know, parents and you see this like youth sports is the worst, right? The screaming hockey dad or baseball dad, you know, trying to make their kid a state champion because they never were. And look, I don't want to be too myopic about it, but I just think that is so pathetic when I see yelling sports parents out there screaming at their kid because they missed the puck or whatever it is. For me, from a parenting perspective, number one, my, my first principle is my kids are sovereign beings, right? They actually know what's best for them. And my job is to help shape that, help give them guidelines. Like you said, help instill that judgment so they can make really good decisions for themselves. And for me, I actually think this starts at the dinner table. So, you know, so many parents are like, you got to clean your plate. You got to try a bite of every, you You know, you got to eat whatever's in front of you. And we actually have a different tact in our household is, is, hey, if you say you don't like this, I'm just going to believe you. I actually can't tell you whether you like this or not. Right. And like, that doesn't mean like kids only eat Dino Nuggets or French fries. Like, like we encourage them to keep trying stuff and their tastes evolve over time. But so many people try to control outcomes for their kids. Yeah. And the reality is you can't control the outcome.

That's right. I mean, that's funny. It's like, I think most of those parents who just try to assert their will on their kids, of course the intent is good. I mean, nobody wants, you know, nobody, everybody wishes the absolute best for their kids, but it just doesn't work. And, um, I'm reminded when you were talking, I was reminded of the quote, um, you don't get the kids you want, you get the kids you deserve. They, Um, my daughters and both of them, but one in particular, um, she's so different from my wife and I'm like, where did you come from? Like, um, she sees the world so differently. So every single time I make the mistake of assuming that she sees the world the way I see it, or I try to enforce my way of doing things, not only does it not work, it backfires in a major way.

Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite parenting stories is, you know, my son and to this, to this point, like I thought I was going to get a little mini me. Um, and it turns out my son is a very, uh, sweet, sensitive kid and definitely, uh, the son that I deserved and, um, has taught me so much, but, you know, early on we were in T-ball. He was, he was probably 5 and. Look, he was never going to be a great T-ball player. Like, I was never in danger of raising a state champion T-ball player. And, uh, he, he was on second base standing on the base and the kid at the plate got a hit and he was like looking up at the sky and he didn't run. And all of a sudden, all the parents, the coaches, everybody is shouting at this kid to run and he's just staring up at the sky. And then he realizes he's being yelled at and he jumps out of his skin. And runs straight from second base off the field and into my arms. And at this point, I can feel all the other eyes of— and he's sobbing in my arms. I can feel all the other parents just going, you're going to get him back out there, right? Like, we got to show him who's tough.

Tell him to man up.

Tell him to man up, right? And I just looked at my son who's sobbing in my arms, and he was just like, I want to go home. I want to go home. And I was like, Let's go home. And I, and I walked out of there, you know, to, to, with the, with the judgmental eyes of all the, all the other parents. But, you know, in, in that moment, my son needed me to show him that he was safe, right? There's plenty of time in life to, to show kids how to be resilient, how to, you know, dust yourself off and get back up. And I think those are super important, but I think that discernment is like, he needed to know that, that I had his back in that moment.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the discernment you have to use as a parent, like as a parent, part of having good judgment yourself is knowing when you tell your kid the equivalent of man up. I mean, I wouldn't use those words ever probably, but, but, um, but you know, there are, um, you know, there are times when you have to kind of push through and, you know, we did a re-episode recently about, you know, the struggle and. Uh, the kind of interesting, um, delicate dance we have with struggle. Um, and you have to let your kids struggle a little bit. You can't be the helicopter parent. Um, but at the same time, it doesn't always have to be hard.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And, and that's it, right? Like, and, and again, I think there's a, there's a difference in, you know, a 5-year-old kid, uh, playing youth sports versus a 16-year-old kid. You know, if my 16-year-old kid is running off the, off off the baseball field. Okay. Maybe we're going to have a different conversation, but at 5, like, we're just out here having fun, man. Like, that's the whole, that's the whole game. And he was clearly not having fun in that moment.

Yeah.

And I don't want to risk ruining sports for the rest of his life because, because he thinks he's going to have all this pressure on him.

Yeah. Well, yeah. And I think like, if it, the situation was not on the baseball field, just having fun, but it was like your son ran out of like, the SAT test and wanted to cry in your arms, you might have a little bit different response to that. And that's the judgment. Um, I want to pivot a little bit and, and I, I have one tactic that I'm a huge believer in that I don't think it's, um, talked about or used very much is I'm a big believer in just the power of words and specifically of words said repeatedly over many years and You might even call it a mantra. And I famously have this sticky note that's hung on our family refrigerator for many years. And it's to the point where my kids roll their eyes every time I say it now, but it says, Dahlstroms invest in experiences. Another mantra of mine that my kids roll their eyes at is use good judgment. And the fact that they roll their eyes is actually a very good sign to me because that means I've said it a lot. And, you know, those things actually stick. If I think what it is, it's like as a leader in a way, like as a parent, you're in a way like a leader. Um, you have to make it clear what the values are and what the expectations are. And I actually don't ask for much explicitly out of my kids. Like I've written about, and I always get, when I write about this on X, I always get people who call bullshit on it, but it's true. I've never looked at a report card from my kids. Never. Um, I know they make good grades because they tell me and I believe them and My wife has probably done a good bit of looking at it. Um, but I haven't, but they do know the expectation. We work hard, we use good judgment. Um, you know, but at the end of the day, we're big believers in investing in experiences. Like we're, we're here for the experience, not a short-term outcome. And so I think this idea of like making the ground rules super clear in the form of specific words that has real power.

All right. Well, you, you're gonna love mine. I, we have two family mottos. One is. Browns have each other's back. And I think that should go without saying, right? It's like, hey, you only get one famzie.

You know, let me interrupt. It should go without saying, but there's huge power in saying it.

Over and over, right? And that's, and they know, and even, you know, if my son is disparaging my daughter or vice versa, go, hey, hey guys, Browns have each other's back. Like we don't speak poorly of each other in public, right? Like this is, this is not something we do. And they know that. And it actually. Actually has really shaped the way they relate to each other. Like they know they have to have each other's back. And then two is Browns can do hard things. Right. Love it. And the nuance there is Browns don't always have to do hard things, right. But we can do hard things. And, you know, one of the biggest challenges for me as a parent is for both my wife and I, school came very easily, right? So, so yes, there was an expectation from our parents that we got good grades. But we were going to get good grades anyway, right? Like, like school came fairly easily. My son is wildly dyslexic and dysgraphic. School has always been really hard for him. And I think the difficult piece here is it's actually hard for me to relate. Like I can't relate to how difficult school— I mean, school is not designed for a dyslexic kid. I mean, we just, everything is based on reading and writing and, um, it's exceedingly difficult. And so for me, I've learned so much just finding compassion for, you know, our differences and also still encouraging him to do hard things. It's like, hey, this is your job. Like we got, we got to get this thing done. But if I had some expectation that my kid's going to get all A's, like I'm going to be sorely disappointed. I'm going to be banging my face against the wall.

Yeah. I think your point about expecting your kid to be just a mini me is a powerful one. I think we all fall victim to that thinking to some degree. And I'll tell you one thing that's been very eye-opening to me. Um, it's the simplest thing in the world, but it's just like the Enneagram test. So, um, number one, like the Enneagram is just a simple personality typing test. And the reason I like it is because it's simple and fun. Um, but even in my marriage, like it was very helpful for me to understand like, oh, She's not wired just like me. I can't, you know, who knew, right? But my wife doesn't sleep like me and she's not being difficult. She's being who she is. And then you can apply that same thing to your kids and you realize that they just see the world completely different. And guess what? When you embrace it, it's awesome. But there's a tendency if you have this mini-me expectation that like anything that deviates from the mini-me is wrong and something to be beat out of them. And actually like you want people to become like the way to win in life is to double down on who you are, like be your best you.

This is it. I mean, I, I, my question is like, what do you actually want for your kids?

Right. Right.

And I'm asking you, Kevin, like what do you want for your kids? Like what do you think a successful role as a parent, you know, what is that outcome?

Um, I think to Um, well, I'll go back to like the, the use good judgment, which is upstream of everything. But what does that specifically mean to me? Um, I'm a huge believer in the power of just not doing stupid things. You know, I repeat that Tolstoy quote all the time about like people will put all this effort into doing all these smart things when sometimes the most powerful thing is just to avoid doing dumb things. To me, honestly, like just doing that. Creates a pretty good baseline for life. Um, and so like, dodge those bullets and avoid those kill shots that take out so many people, whether it's addiction or just one bad decision, a bad marriage, whatever. Um, and then everything from there is gravy. And I think, um, you know, again, at the foundation of that is use good judgment, like point yourself in good direction. Know when to hold it, know when to fold it, know when to walk away, know when to run. Um, but I'll flip that on you. Like, that was, uh, I've never actually, I don't think explicitly answered that question, but how would you answer that?

I mean, the reason I asked is because I, for me, it's, I want my kids to be empowered to be who they truly are. And I don't get to tell them who they are, right? I know who I am. I've done a whole lot of work to figure that out, but why would I project that on them? And, you know, who they, who they are, um, is going to vary wildly from who I am and what works for me does not necessarily work for them. But one of the things I love actually, uh, to your sweatshirt with Baby Bathwater, here's the crazy thing I've learned at Baby Bathwater. There are a million paths to being successful, right? Like I was recently sitting around, uh, having a conversation with a group of entrepreneurs. There was one that dropped out of high school and got his GED and didn't graduate college until he was 28. Right? Like there, there are so many paths and We sort of have this, you know, work hard, get good grades, go to a, go to an elite college. And that's the only path to success. And I have no idea what college 90% of Baby Bathwater members went to. And these are all super successful people. I mean, there are a lot of Middle Kentucky Eastern State type folks that took a very wild path through life and still wound up as massively successful. Oh dude.

I mean, let's, let's pin this one because that's an episode in itself of this mini paths thing. And if I, like, if I could tell my 20-year-old self literally one thing and like, if I could pass one note, that would probably be it. That like, find your own path. And it sounds so simple. And yet, you know, I, I went most of my life without even knowing that that was an option, like to create my own path was an option. Rock climbing, strangely enough, was the thing that exposed me to a completely different world I didn't even know existed and ended up like completely blowing up my life, uh, mostly in a good way. So absolutely, like, I think that's your answer is better. And if I had to give a succinct answer, I would restate it as like for them to find their own path and not do stupid shit along the way would be nirvana. I'd be like the chef's kiss. Um, Let me, let me kind of try to start wrapping this thing up because we could talk about this topic forever, but I had the one thing I wrote down before we got on this, um, this recording was, uh, the best piece of parenting advice I ever heard. And, um, it came from someone who, um, I have a lot of respect for as a person, which is Laird Hamilton, the, the pro big wave surfer, um, slash philosopher. And, um, the story that was told by his wife Gabby was that she was at home one time and he came in and she was just sobbing and he's like, what's wrong? And she says, man, I'm just having so much trouble with our 14-year-old daughter. I'm at my wit's end. I think I've just concluded I'm a terrible parent. And Laird, in his typical Zen fashion, just pauses for a moment and he says, You're here and you love them. The rest is details. And it sounds so simple, but if you think about it, like the word you're here, that implies presence, which I believe is the single most important ingredient for parenting is just being there. Doesn't even mean you're doing anything. That's being around, being there when you— and then love. We have to ask ourselves, like, you're here and you love them. Well, is love on your terms? Like, is it performance-based or is it unconditional love? Which is kind of what you're talking about. Um, what you did with your son is a great example. And so I repeat that, that story from Laird all the time, because it really is, it's that simple and that hard at the same time.

Yeah. I mean, this, this for me, a similar, uh, quote, and this is from my friend Dan Martell. It's one of my favorite things that he says is no one has to change for you to win. Right. And what that means is like, I can be a great loving parent and it doesn't matter if my kid goes to Harvard or if he works at 7-Eleven, right? Does he get— is, is he being who he is? Is he, is he loving his life? Like, is, is he fully expressing himself? Like, that's all I want for my kid. And he, and the big thing I try to instill is you never have to earn my love. Like there, there is nothing you have to do. There's nothing you could do to make me love you anymore. And there's nothing you could do to make me love you any less. And that's it. It's that simple.

Well, it's, it's a, it's a form of, um, your core message, which is essentially like process over outcome. And if you focus on the process of parenting and surrender the outcome, then as a very wise guy I know once said, uh, it makes the outcome both inevitable and irrelevant. Mic drop.

I love it. Well, uh, yeah, this is, this is such a great topic. Uh, I think we're gonna have to do more on parenting because, uh, Clearly we're both pretty passionate about it too.

Hey, if you're listening to this, let us know what you think. And, uh, I'd love to do a part 2 on this because this is a subject that's near and dear to many people's hearts, obviously.

Yeah, definitely. Well, as always, thanks, Kevin, and we will see you guys next time.

Peace out.