When Winning Doesn’t Mean You’re Safe (David Staley - Money Stories Ep 13)

Your company is, you know, multi-8, 9 figures in revenue.

I got kicked out of my parents' house right as I graduated high school, and I didn't have a college plan. There was none of that stuff. I didn't feel I had a safety net. I was very concerned about food and very concerned about surviving. Now, that one year, I— it was a huge acceleration. I went from like $48,000 to like $230,000 from—

impressionant.

And if we had stayed at the Denver Post at the time, I would have projected to do like $480,000 that year. And so I just started to taste like what security could feel like. Then like an hour later, my wife, she gets results that say she has lesions on her brain. So we were like closing on a house that we feel like we can't afford. Now it seems like our partner wants out of the business and we've got this health thing.

Welcome to Money Stories. Today we have a very special guest, founder of Digible, a 9-figure agency for multifamily, recent post-exit founder, and, and recent but really growing friendship with David Staley. Thanks for being here.

Yeah, thanks, Mike. Happy to be here.

So you've, you've obviously experienced a lot of success. Where I would love to start is What, what's, what started you on that path? What, what gave you the drive to build such a company?

I mean, do you want to go back to like, let's go like adolescence? Yeah.

Send it.

Well, I don't know. I feel like I grew up with my parents are school teachers. My grandparents are school teachers. So since you said money story, I don't exactly know what you mean by, but you can steer me. But I think about, I had a, I felt a lot of scarcity growing up, you know, the whole, I just knew, I didn't know the family's finances, but I knew that school teachers, it always seems like they don't make enough. That was like sort of in the zeitgeist or whatever. Right. And so I always felt insecurity there. And then as I was growing up, I, I did also feel a lot of absence of love from my family. They, what I learned later is my mom. It was like, well, I'll parent the girl and then Dad, you parent the boy. And my dad was an alcoholic, although not— he was a functioning alcoholic and took my mom a while to realize that. So he was just more absent. So I felt more sort of like on my own. Now I think I probably would've been pretty self-sufficient or independent on my own anyways. I think that just pushed me further towards independence. And so then Growing up with my friends, I always wanted to play the game on hard mode or whatever. Like I was always doing the hard thing and I'm not sure why. It just felt like very natural to me. Like I want the challenge. I want to try to, I don't know, push my way through it. And then when it came to the company, it was my third startup for DigiBall. So I was probably just about 30 and it was more like we got forced into it from the three of us that founded DigiBull, my now wife, and then our third founder, Reid, we sort of got pushed into it from our other employer, and it was just more about survival mode. So there wasn't this grand plan of like, let's build a big company. It was more like, let's have enough to survive. Let's have enough just to not work for corporate and do our own thing. So you can dive in there wherever you want.

Yeah, well, let's get— let's go back to growing up. You intuited the the question about money stories, right? That scarcity, those feelings of aloneness I'm hearing reflected, you know, survival sort of also sounds like playing on hard mode, right? In this case, like, not only, not only am I trying to survive, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick the toughest path. Where do you think that comes from?

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it just, like I said, like I can remember even like in elementary school when we're playing GoldenEye, like on N64, I'd wanna play like on the hardest setting or whatever. And that was before I was yet conscious of feeling the sort of like lack of love from my parents that came kind of like a couple years later. So it just feel, I think there's the whole like nature nurture. Now that we have a 2.5-year-old, I'm thinking like, It's probably a lot more nature than nurture, and yet nurture matters. And so anyways, my nature I think was just always wanting to try to challenge myself. And then in particular, when it came to things that I felt like I had some skill at, I wanted— then I leaned in even more. But I wasn't like a great athlete. I didn't play like team sports, that kind of thing. And so then if I found anything that I had a little bit of like almost like purchase on, then I'd be like, oh, let's amp let's amp the dial up. So whether that was at the time video games or eventually, you know, business or more running, you know, eventually I got into running and then I started to amp up the, amp that up too. But yeah, it's weird though, cuz like if I wasn't very good at it by nature, like I don't know, choir or something, I didn't care to be challenged. It's like, not into it. So I had to have a little bit of success first. Yeah.

You, you, you find the aptitude and then, and then it's all in.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, so growing up with school teachers, obviously there's, there's not a lot of entrepreneurship example. When did you first become aware that you wanted better circumstances or that you wanted to get out of survival mode?

So I remember it must have been like 4th grade or something, 3rd or 4th grade. My, my parents were gonna buy a, a boat. And they came to my sister and I and sat us down for a family meeting. My sister's a year younger and they were like, hey, we want to use the money your grandfather put in your college fund to buy this boat. Are you okay with it? And my immediate answer at the time, because I'm also naturally very loyal, was I was like, sure, of course. And my sister was like, well, I don't know, we should think about it. And I was like, what's to think about? They're our parents. Shouldn't we have, shouldn't we be all in and trust? On the flip side though, I also became aware that my parents had, I don't know, $70,000 in credit card debt or something. And so I had this, my loyalty was first, but then as they were borrowing the money from our college fund, I also was aware of like, well, this seems like a very scarce resource to us. And when we'd like go to the movie theater, we have to, we would bring like the old popcorn jugs to get refilled for free or like whatever. We never like bought like the drinks at the baseball games or whatever. We just couldn't, we just couldn't. And so that's when I started to feel like insecure, like, okay, we don't have enough to just sort of like make it. And then as I entered high school, I learned about compound interest and things. And that's when I was like, oh shoot, I need to invest like $2,000 now so that I'm okay and I can retire at whatever, like 70 and not have to work like some of my uncles are working. And so that became a big thing for me. I was like, I don't want to have to work like my uncles work. You know, into later life. I wanna, I wanna be secure then, but there was like, how do I make it from now until then? And then I got kicked outta my parents' house right as I graduated high school and I didn't have a college plan. There was none of that stuff. And so immediately I'm working at this dollar movie theater for $5.15 an hour. And you know, I am having to sleep in my girlfriend's mom's house at the time cuz you know, I didn't have a place to live. And I'm just like, how am I gonna make ends meet? So I just got very insecure then of like, well, I never got to put that $2,000 in my budget so that I'm okay at retirement. And now I'm working a movie theater. What, you know, what future is this? And I don't know how to get into college and all that stuff. So that's when it really hit me hard of like, I want to claw my way out of this. So yeah, it was definitely an evolution from that age of whatever, like 8 with the insecurity building to then. Like, shoot, I don't, I don't know if I'm going to be able to make rent, basically, once I got an apartment out of my girlfriend's mom's house.

And was there a point, was there a moment where you're like, I've had enough?

What do you mean?

With, with not being able to make rent, with, you know, the struggle.

I don't know, like, about I've had enough, like, emotionally. It always felt like I was drowning since I got kicked out of my parents' house. I didn't feel that I had a place to go. I didn't feel I had a safety net. So it always felt like I'm one disaster away from, like, I didn't have medical coverage. I didn't, you know, didn't have dental plan. I didn't go to the dentist for like 10 years cuz I didn't have anything. So it was always like, it feels like I'm like one step from like being on the street kind of thing. And I didn't have any like father figure or mentorship to think like, let's play that out. Like what, what would cause you to be on the street? And what does that mean? Are you really gonna die if you land on the street? Like, all that kind of thought experiment. It was more just like, I need to figure out how to earn. And I did. Yeah, I did. It's not like I was like, I gotta get out of this, or I need to do better, bigger things than a movie theater. It's like, someone please gimme a job. I need, like, I want to work hard. I was always a big hard worker, so.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like there wasn't some grandiose plan. Like you were just trying to find some security. Like this, this stress of constantly wondering where your next meal is going to come from sort of lands in the body and you just normalize, you know, waking up every day and going, I don't know if this is the day I'm, I'm done. If I'm homeless.

Yeah. It's funny. My, when you said the meal thing, it just came to mind. My buddy Ryan and I at the, at the dollar movie theater, he was, he was also struggling. And we used to like take— there's two stories here. We used to take these hot dog buns because the movie theater would count hot dogs and they'd count pickles and whatever, but in, in cups, but they wouldn't count the buns. And so we'd like take the buns and then put popcorn in the center of the bun and that would be our meal. Very carb heavy. And then, and then he was like, look, man, we might need some protein. And I was like, okay. He's like, why don't we do a, a challenge here? Can we Can one of us survive on $20 for the month, for the entire month for food, but you can't, you can't cheat the system that like salt, like you can't, you have to buy salt if you want salt. Like, and so we went on this like 30-day challenge of $20. And so he went and bought a bunch of chicken because he was like, we need protein. And I went and bought a 50-pound bag of rice and a 20-pound sack of potatoes. And I was like, let's get to it. And I was just rice and potatoes for my 30 days. And he, his chicken went sour and So he lost, but I finished with like $12. It cost me like $12.11 for the month. But dude, my, my health like took a big hit. I was like, I was, I'm already pale and I was like more pale and ghostly. And so anyways, it just, yes, we were, I was very concerned about food and very concerned about surviving.

Yeah. But at the same time, like, what is, what is knowing you can survive for 30 days on potatoes and rice do for you?

I think that was just like, how do I cut expenses? Like, how do I like—

I mean, what does it, what does it, what does it get like, like what kind of confidence does that, like, that must have shaped you. Like you can kind of get through anything.

Yeah, there were a few things like that. So shortly after this 30-day challenge, this is how I got into running. That same guy, buddy Ryan, he had learned of this thing, the Canadian Death Race. It's this like ultra marathon through the Canadian Rockies. And I had never, I didn't even know what a marathon was as far as like distance. I knew people ran it and he's like, hey man. Why don't you do the Canadian Death Race? I was like, sounds cool, dude. And, but I couldn't afford to get to Canada cuz it was expensive from, we were in North Dallas and I was like, but what if I run to Oklahoma? Cuz it's the same distance. So my apartment in Lewisville was like 76 miles from the Oklahoma border. So I was like, all right. So we were like, fair, square deal, but you gotta take off the same day, same time. So it was like August 1st in Texas and I just like take up off I-35 to try to get to Oklahoma. Quick end of the story is like I got picked up by a state trooper as a runaway kid kind of thing. Like you're not allowed to run on the highway. Was not totally aware of those. Forgot sunscreen, all this stuff. I was halfway, I was 36 miles in. So when that happened, I like, I, so I, like I said, I didn't have health insurance and for the next like 3 days I couldn't get up off the couch. I was, I was toast, but eventually the body healed and it was fine. I was like, oh cool, I can do back to this hard things, right? It's like I can do the. $20, I can, I, I feel like I could have made it to Oklahoma. It would've been a, uh, not a pretty sight. But anyways, yeah, it's, there are a lot of things there that were indicative for me that you can do hard things and you can push through, you can persevere basically is like what it equals. And now it's just like, you gotta run out the clock, right? Like, so.

Yeah. You don't, you don't have to be the fastest. You just have to be faster than the bear, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's—

I mean, obviously that those challenges, right, the doing hard things is laying the groundwork for building a company because it turns out entrepreneurship is not easy. What were some of the challenges you faced in growing your company or maybe in companies before?

So the first one was I must have been like 19 or so and I got a— I was working at that movie theater, at a car dealership, and at a paintball warehouse supply. I was, I was just really working hard and I got a call from a friend that his sister, they were starting an e-commerce company in California. So I went out to California, like, I was like, sign me up, I'll go. It's like $20,000 a year, which was a lot for me at the time, but also not a lot in LA or San Francisco. And then eventually, so they were giving me equity in the company, but then eventually we went, they moved me to Connecticut because of tax reasons in California. And then they sold the company like internally, one founder to another. And I learned I didn't actually have equity. So I had thought I was like, I was like slowly going into debt trying to afford my bills in the major cities, right? Including New York. And then I was like, oh shoot, I didn't have equity. That's— I didn't blame them. I was just like, wow, how naive was I to not like really look through the paperwork or whatever?

I mean, how did you find out?

Well, they sat me down and told me that they were selling the company. I was like, okay, what do you know? What's my, what's my share? And they're like, oh no, There's no share. I was like, what are you talking about? And I should have known this too, cuz they originally, when I signed up, they had offered me a commission plan and I never got paid on the commission plan either. So it's like I should have known, but I, I'm not very good at advocating for myself. So I, and I put others first by nature. So when something happens, I'm like, oh, it's probably an honest mistake. They'll probably catch me up some other time, but I'm not gonna bother them and ask about, you know, my commission or my equity or any of that stuff. So I had to go through many of those, like being to even today, like I feel like there are still times I have to catch myself like, hey, are you sticking up for yourself? Are you being taken advantage of?

How do you start to shift that?

It's been recent for me. So like even after leaving my company, like one of the self-development things I've been doing is this self-love workbook. And I'm like, I think I miss it. I don't have a lot of self-love. I think I, or I don't think I do. What is that? And let me go into it. And I like go to the coffee shop, spend 2 hours there, like working through the self-love workbook. And one of the categories there that you rate yourself on is basically respect. And my— I didn't know that it was respect. They have you do these questionnaires and it's like, my respect is like a 2 of 10. And I was like, oh, roh roh. Yeah, I know I should, I should work on that. And part of what they define for respect is like, can you speak up for yourself in the moment? And that's what I don't realize is in the moment, I I won't, I don't even recognize it. It's like I compartmentalize or something and I'm like, what does Mike want here? And I, I'll work for Mike, but not for myself. So it's a work in progress, very much a work in progress.

Yeah. And A, what a gift to dive, be able to dive into all of that stuff. And it's, it's one of the things that I think is tough when you're building, when you're in grind mode. There's not time to do self-love workbooks, right? And, you know, one of my favorite things that I always tell post-exit founders is like, don't jump into the next thing too fast. Like, give yourself some space. So let's fast forward. When did you start thinking about exiting? How did it come about? And what's it been like since?

So for the past maybe 4 years or so, our third founder had been saying that he wanted to get out of the company. He, you know, he's got a family that's going to exit high school soon, wants to spend time with them. And so for the past 4 or 5 years, I've been like, okay, I want to keep doing this company. I don't want to do something else. This is the most fun I've had. And yeah, it just, I was enjoying the ride. So I was like, let me make sure we at least have the right team in place because I knew myself well enough then that like, if someone brings a big deal to us, that if he wants out, I'm gonna— it's gonna be hard for me to put my foot down even though we have equal voting rights. And so, start putting the team together then of like investment bankers and legal and advisors and that type of thing, just so that I had other people to help advocate, you know, when the time came. And there were many offers over the years to sell the company, but for whatever reason, we were ever able to navigate through it where we were like, let's keep going, let's not do it, even though they'd be life-changing. But I had believed since the beginning, we had all agreed, like, we're not going to sell. We're going to build this company not to sell. So even when we gave options to employees, we didn't give them less pay because of it. In fact, we pay like 20% above market. And that was because we didn't want people to think like, I'm going to get this lottery ticket. Because if we also never sell, you never get the lottery ticket. So I don't want you, whoever employee—

Banking on us.

Yeah. 47 being like, hey, how do I get my equity back? You know? So anyways, I, I was really committed to that. I'm very much a person that will do what I say, and I have also not allowed myself to change my mind. Like, I'm like, if I say something, it must be kind of forever versus like, you know, I think even Bezos said like a wise person can change their mind. And so I'm pretty stubborn, but I usually tried to think it through and be like, this is going to be my life philosophy on this point. And therefore I never have to worry about changing my mind. So, it, I had thought of it just because how can I make sure we're set up so that if a deal comes along, I'm not forced into selling. But then I had my sort of requirements that like, okay, if we are forced into that, what are the things I, I'm gonna hold firm to? One of those is like, I didn't want an earnout. It's like, I don't want a boss. Like, that's one of the reasons of starting your own company. When I, it really ultimately comes down to freedom. I want to be able to do what I want to do. And not what other people tell me to do. So that flexibility. And then last year, the day we closed on our new house, my wife and I, who is one of the founders, she, he called us and was like, hey, I went out and I, and I was like, cool, but you know, I don't want out. So this was, that was a positive for me. I was like, so what do you want? Because let me try to go. I can, you know, get the money to get, get what, get you a good deal. And so he told me what he wanted and I was like, you're not asking for enough. Your equity's worth more than that. So let me see what I can do. Then like an hour later, my, we did this Prenuvo scan. Are you familiar with those MRIs?

Yeah.

My wife did one of those scans. We both did one of those scans and then she gets results that say she has lesions on her brain. So then we have like this health crisis. So we were like closing on a house that we feel like we can't afford. Now it seems like our partner wants out of the business and we've got this health thing. Whoa. A lot of stress.

Yeah. Press pause here. Take me back to that moment because closing on a house, selling a business, like those are big deals. The health thing is something different. What was it like in them?

You know, I, I'm someone that like braces— well, I feel like I compartmentalize well, which is a superpower, but also is like a saboteur in another way. Right.

And it's a skill I'm, I'm very familiar with.

Yeah. So like I, I got some results and they're like, hey, you have lesions on your prostate, you should get it checked out. And I was like, okay. But going into the Prenuvo thing, we knew that 40-something percent of people need further testing on whatever it is. So I'd already mentally prepared that, like, when they say I have something, I'm also naturally kind of optimistic. I'm like, okay, cool, I'll figure it out. And if not, now I have the perseverance, I'll fight through it. Right. My wife is more a little bit on the other side of the optimism. And she is like, oh shoot, now what if I can't walk up the stairs or like play soccer with our son or that kind of thing? That's how she immediately internalized it. So I was more trying to like, how can I help manage this whole situation, right? Like I need to be a rock, I feel like, for her in this moment and for the business, because we're all in, right? Like this is our only source of income, her and I. And yet I know I'm, I'm also have learned I need to be there emotionally for her and let her feel like it's okay to feel sad and scared. That has been a challenge for me to like, I guess sympathize, not empathize, is what someone was recently telling me. 'Cause the only way I know to do it is to empathize, which then means I'm taking it on and feeling it too. And so, well, I, I can't put my place, myself in that place, I feel, and also negotiate this like exit, right? For my partner at the time. So yeah, I, I was more like compartmentalizing the health stuff and say, hey, we'll figure it out. We'll, we'll do the doctors. We'll like, we'll, we'll do further testing, but let's not freak out until we know, like the whole reason we did this was to help prevent things. So. I'm thinking this is a long, like, in my mind, I'm like, it's a future problem versus a now problem. And I still had a little bit of the sense of the money situation of like, we're not yet set. So like, if, if we're on the street tomorrow, like, you know, now how do we handle the health stuff? So I'm like, we need to like make sure we have finances secured in order to handle the health stuff, I think was like deeply seated in me.

Yeah. So you, I mean, at this point you, you're, Your company is, you know, multi-8, 9 figures in revenue and you haven't taken anything out that you would be able to handle health stuff?

No, no. And we weren't paying ourselves market rate. We weren't. I think I'd only started paying myself like over $100,000, like maybe 2 years earlier or something. And we were catching up like a lot of personal loans we took out to support the business. And I mean, we didn't talk about that, but when we started the business, we got sued by our former employer. So that took multiple, multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so we were like trying to claw back out of that. And then we, we bootstrapped the whole thing. So we didn't have, we didn't have any other sources of funding. So we'd paid employees well, you know, 20% above market, but paid ourselves far under 20, like far less than 80% of market. And we're just trying to catch up. So no, we hadn't taken, we hadn't taken everything out and the business has been like growing so fast it needed a lot of reinvestment to capitalize on it. But my, our third partner, we hadn't been seeing eye to eye on some of those investments and that's where some of the friction started to come in. Uh, he's more visionary, I'm more integrator and I, you know, was just doing—

there's a natural tension there.

Yeah. Yeah. So no, we didn't have a safety net. Like we had just paid off our debt, I think that prior year and we were stretching to get this, this, a new house.

How does, how do you think that ties into not being able to advocate for yourself?

Which part?

The, the not paying yourself market rate.

Yeah, it's 100% tied in. It's like, even though he and I were equal equity holders, he had a family and then we had dual income, right? Like Nicole and I. So I often was like, take what you need, man. 'Cause I realized the stress that he had with money. Was impacting the whole company. So I was like, we need to get you square before we get anybody else square. And so unfairly, even to my wife, she's getting bundled in with me where she's not getting paid nearly appropriately either. And yet she sh— she shouldn't in a way be bundled with me as if we're a package deal, but effectively we were earning one person's salary together. And that wasn't fair to her, me, you know, whatever. And yet I'm still trying to tell our third, like, take more, take more so you don't stress out and do— because the more he's stressed, the more the visionary kind of acts erratic or wild. And so I was like, if we can get him square, then I'll be able to get myself square. But it was never like where I should have done. And if I was advising myself, be like, well, hey man, you're equal shareholder, so why are you deferring? Like, I just realized this, like, A few days ago, I was thinking about it on my drive. I never set my salary. He always set my salary. So he'd be like, hey, we're going to bump you up like $10,000. I'm like, cool. But still, like everyone from a director and above is still making more than we're making as founders. And yet my house is like collateral against the company and whatnot. So my 401(k) is tied up in the company, like all this stuff. So it, it. Completely ties to this not advocating for myself, but good lesson. So I'm not holding it against anything, just more of like, all right, what I do in the future versus, and what I tell other people.

Yeah. Which, which aligns, you know, a through line in your story is radical personal responsibility, right? I mean, it doesn't sound like you've ever blamed someone else for your situation. And what a superpower. Right? It gets you through long runs. It gets you— I mean, that extreme ownership, to borrow Jocko's term, is a superpower until it's not. Right? And when it goes too far, that's kind of what we see here is building a monster company with no safety net well beyond when you could have had one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, there's— we had way more hard times than we should have and caused way more stress than we should have. But that was part of, that's part of the challenge of having, I mean, I like ha— at the time I liked having co-founders. It's less lonely. And yet, like, you know, if someone wants to bet it all on black or whatever, and you're like, hey, I'm still trying to get that $2,000 to square away from my retirement. Like, right. That's a little bit at odds. So it would've been nice to have like, some at least like meet in the middle versus like going extreme one direction.

Yeah, but I mean, I see this so often in the entrepreneurship community is we kind of internalize this idea that I'll just be happy when I'll just be happy when I get the exit, I'll just— I'll finally shore up that $2,000 investment account.

Mm-hmm.

You know, when I sell my company and often it's for millions. and, you know, the day before they sell, they don't have two nickels to rub together. They're equity rich.

Yeah.

And it sounds like you were squarely in that camp. How stressful was that?

I didn't feel— I mean, I sort of, since I always, I never was doing well, like ahead of this, like I had, what happened was like through my 20s, I had a couple of different startups. I, I, did, and then I worked like for the Yellow Pages and then I worked for Hearst Newspaper Group. So it's like I always picked like the failing industries along the way for reasons that we can get into, but I didn't make over $48,000 until like the year before we started the company. So the, now that one year, I, I, it was a huge acceleration. I went from like $48,000 to like $230,000 from—

Crush it.

Because of my commission plan, like I, I was doing really well. And if we had stayed at, at the Denver Post at the time, I would've projected to do like $480,000 that year. And so I, I just started to, to taste like what security could feel like. And, but yet it wasn't so much of a backstep for me where it was like, okay, I, that getting that money was enough to buy our first little log home of 1,100 square feet foot up in the mountains. and it's like, thank goodness, cuz that's where we lived for the next 8 years while we built the company. But yeah, I never had enough to where I'm like, oh, now I have to like stop getting guacamole on my Chipotle. It's like I never was getting guacamole on Chipotle. And then meaning just, I think about like, you know, it's the upcharge of $2. Okay. Yeah. You looked confused in my—

No, no.

I see you, uh, you haven't had—

I've actually heard, I've actually heard other, other, other folks use that exact same thing.

Oh really?

It's like, It's like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm good.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you are good.

Yeah.

But, but okay.

So, so I wasn't stressed until the last year to get to your question. Like through the exit process, that's when I started losing my hair. My teeth enamel started coming off from like the acid, like from the stress, but it was all just trying to organize the, the exit.

And selling a company is tough regardless of how you slice it, even if it's an easy, relatively easy transaction, right? There's just so much to do. Where was all of that stress coming from? Like, what was the stressful part about selling?

Well, we sold internally, so the company bought my shares. I did a stock redemption, but what came as a surprise was I thought I was buying our third out, and then I raised the money and brought it to him and it was, the valuation was triple what he was asking for. So I felt good. And then I was like, good, I'm doing a good thing for my, my partner here. And then when he, then he was like, actually, I want you out and I want to stay. I was like, that blew up my world. I was like, for 5 years you've been saying you want out. Like, I just was like, what the heck? What secret have you been keeping here? So, and trust is hard for me. It takes years for me to gain, like, feel real trust with someone. So that just felt like really shattering to me. And then he offered me that like a third of what I was offering him from an equity standpoint. And I, and I, it was like just like compounding my like trust issues. And so that's really what it was. It was more the stress of the relationship. I was like, okay, outside of my wife, this is my best friend. And then to just feel like, I was like, this is kind of like that. It's not exactly the self-love, but I think it's related. It's more of like, I had respected and thought so fully that this, that things were one way and it turns out they're the complete opposite way. And now how naive have I been? And now how is this whole thing imploding on me? So it was just the stress of managing like the loss, I guess, of what I felt was that relationship, or at least the like trust jar is emptied now. And then like, now I also gotta make sure I'm good. So it was two big internal things for me coming to a head.

Yeah, that sound like they started in childhood, right? A, you were always alone, right? Had to take care of yourself. So it's easy to see where trust issues come from. Like, why would I rely on someone else to do it? They're probably not going to show up, so I'll just take care of it myself. Right? And then advocating for yourself, right? Like, as a kid, you can't— you don't have the capacity. You don't have the knowledge of how to advocate for yourself. So you just kind of take the situation. And the beauty is you're okay, right? Like, you can actually handle it. But then the problem is you can handle it. And so you walk through life actually being able to handle it.

Yeah.

So there you are. Now the tables have turned. You were offering 3 times the valuation and Now you get a third offer. What do you do in that moment?

I was pretty like dumbfounded. I'm not usually like, like, 'cause I'm very, I'm, if you, have you ever read the book Positive Intelligence?

Mm-hmm.

You know? Okay. So they've got the saboteurs and one of my saboteurs is logic. And so, and it's really hard to break out of it 'cause I still see my logic saboteur as a, as a superpower.

Yeah.

Anyway, so I, with logic, I'm like, well, this doesn't make sense. I just offered you like more, can't, shouldn't it be the same deal? And so it took, and from the time he asked to the time I brought the money was like less than a month. And so, but then it took another like 5 or 6 months for him, for us to work this out for when it, when the tables turned. And that was really stressful and frustrating. 'Cause I move, I like to move very fast and be like, well, this is, and I, I don't like to negotiate. I like to be like, here's a fair deal. And so it sort of went into all these things I don't like to do. It's like, let's move really slowly, get lots of lawyers involved, and also like negotiate. And that was, yeah, it just was like rubbing salt in the wound basically. Did I answer your question?

Yeah, this is, this is, I mean, this is fascinating. How, like, so it sounds like you did end up negotiating for yourself on your behalf. Like, how did you finally break the chain? How did you, how did you step into, you know what, I'm not gonna take a third of what I offered you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get something better for myself. How, how'd you do that?

Well, there's a couple, like, I guess like hyper developments there for me. One is I just happened to finish reading Die With Zero.

It's one of my faves.

Yeah. So I read it.

Thanks, Bill.

3 times that year. And then, and then the health stuff with my wife. So like, I was like, at first I was like, no, I, my, my inclination would be, what are those 4 archetypes? Like warrior, magician, sovereign, and something else. Anyways, it's like, I know Tony Robbins talks about it.

Yeah.

But anyways, I, my, my inclination is warrior. And so it's like, oh, I'll fight this. And it's like, I'll, that was my inclination. And then as I was going through this self-dev, like this hypergrowth area of like, well, what, what is the money for? What is safety? 'Cause I'd never defined safety for me before. Like what, how much is enough? In order for you to feel safe. So the Perkins book really helped me there about like, okay, let's itemize what would life cost you. And then once I did that, I was like, okay, even if I did get the third, it's enough. And I was like, okay, great. So we're going to be safe, but now I'm principled. And so from a principle standpoint, I'm like, it's not fair though. I need this to be fair. Like I need what it's worth and, and what I offered. And, and I already thought that I was giving, by the way, way more than a fair offer. It was like, I was offering the 409A came back higher than even like what I was offering, which, so I would've raised it had I known, but so I got settled with it. That was your question, right? Yeah. I got settled with it or how I advocated for myself was my attorney. Best thing my attorney did, which they'll probably feel like they offered more value than this, but I think this is the greatest they offered was I knew of the book, Never Split the Difference. But I didn't, it didn't connect with me. I didn't like that negotiation style. The book that they had was Getting to Yes. And that book is similar to Perkins. Like, it was like a nice, it was like, this is what I'm looking for. This is how I naturally negotiate. And yet this book is like 30 or 40 years old at this point. And I just never heard of it. But that book let me negotiate with logic and reason and just ignore all like emotions and feelings and gave me a framework and a path in order to do it. To just say like, hey, let's sit on the same side of the table instead of being adversarial and say like, this is the problem. Can we solve this together? I want to feel fairly treated and like I'm getting the fair value and you want control. So therefore, how come— what are some solutions we can do this together? And so that book was just phenomenal. It completely— it saved me. I don't think it would have worked had I not read that book.

So you crossed the threshold of never advocating to yourself to actually negotiating. It's gotta feel pretty good.

In a way that I could negotiate that felt fair, where it wasn't me advocating. So I wasn't yet internalizing as advocating for myself. It's more of like, I'm following this process that gets everybody their win. So I just wanted to clarify, cuz I'm still working through the advocacy part.

No, I, I, I love it. And it's, it's really refreshing to just hear like, hey, I don't have this all figured out. Like I'm, I'm today years old trying to advocate for myself. Like, and because that's the reality, right? And one of the reasons I started this podcast is because there's so many shows out there that it sounds like people have it all figured out. And what I really want, you know, young founders or people on their way up to know is like, hey, look, you built a 9-figure agency and you're trying to figure it out like right now. And how cool, right? Like there's so much permission in that of like, you don't have to have your shit together and you can still do it probably. Right. So we're both a member of PEF, Post-Exit Founders. And, you know, there is a, it's a common story. You're essentially living on one salary between two of you. And then boom, there's a windfall. Take me through that.

Yeah, I mean, that was, that was a lot. I mean, we go from, we, so part of me building that team, as I said, like maybe 4 years ago is maybe 3 and a half years ago, I found the wealth management firm that I'd want to use. And I was meeting with them quarterly. We never paid them anything. They were amazing. That company is Crescent, but our two, our 2 contacts moved over to UBS. Funny enough, like the month we closed. So we close, we move everything to Cresset, and then they're like, hey, so we're at UBS now. And I'm like, shoot, man, I, I need some time to chillax. I just, I just did all the paperwork for Cresset. Like, let's talk again, Chase, later. So we're still talking to Chase, but yeah, so that was a little also disorienting, right? Like move everything over. We think we have a plan and then the people we've been working with for 4 years are now somewhere else and the plan's not executed yet. but I was like, hey, you know, this is where I had, I've had to remind myself like there's decades ahead, so we don't need to make any rash movements now. So I was very calculated going into the windfall where it, you know, let, what are my principles? So my principle one is like, not, don't get into anything illiquid, you know.

Man, I wish you'd have told me that. Yeah.

So I was like, so basically keep that principle and it's like, as long as it's not illiquid, then we're okay for now. And so that was, there were some others, but that was the biggest thing. And so I had already prepared that and given that to that wealth team ahead of us exiting, just like, this will be the plan so I don't do anything rash. And my logical brain also says, what do I need a wealth team for? I can just buy Vanguard or S&P 500. But again, to protect me from maybe making a rash decision as someone may, or like trying to maximize returns, I have the wealth team and I told them, your Your goal is to guard me from making a weird investment, like an irrational thing or illiquid investment.

Yeah. I mean, that's what I basically call wealth managers. Stupid insurance. Like, yeah, my natural inclination is to go bet the farm.

Yeah.

So just save me from myself. I'll pay your fee.

Yeah, that's, that's— and I told Nicole, it's worth it, isn't it? And she's like, of course. And then let's see. And what I loved about this team too, is I had expected wealth managers to always be telling you to like, 3% withdrawal rate or whatever. But for those 4 years, they'd been telling Nicole and I to spend more, even though we weren't making money. We were, we were putting money in our 401k and they're like, stop that. Like, and a good example here is we got our windshield cracked on our Jeep 4 years ago and it was $600 to fix it. And we refused to fix it. And every time we go meet with Chase every quarter, he's like, so did you fix the windshield? I was like, well, no, it's $600. He's like, dude. You can afford to fix the windshield. Did you buy a second car? Because we, we only, we sold her car. So keep expenses down, just drive one car, commute everywhere. And he's like, get a second car, fix the windshield, dude. And so I liked that they were telling us to spend more. I was like, these are the people, what I don't want is someone else reinforcing whether it's her scarcity mindset or me being too defensive, but I want to stop them from me being too aggressive either. Right. And so I just felt it was a really good mix. So yeah, now you were asking like, how did I handle the transition? I just put that plan in place before I had the money. And then I was like, I'm going to go off to Chile and Argentina and climb some mountains and then come back and slowly work on it. And so, I mean, we can dive in more as you want, but—

I mean, no, that's— I mean, first of all, what strikes me is you're probably the smartest post-exit founder I've ever met for learning that lesson. Because most people go through an arc that looks more like mine of like, oh, I'm King Midas, like everything I touch turns to gold, let me go blow it on some angel investments. So good on you for not doing that. And like, was it die with zero or like, how did you know? How did you know not to screw it up?

Well, ever since whatever, 5 years ago conversation about like, hey, I want to sell, I I'm, I owe, I'm a super, I'm super curious and I love to research and just have, have it figured out before I'm put into the situation. And so I've been spending the last 4 or 5 years just listening to post-exit things and reading books and like making sure my identity wasn't tied to the company and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That's what I was about to just ask. Okay. So you get the money, you have a really smart plan, you know, that's great. How did it feel though? Not, not. All of a sudden you've been building this thing for how long?

It was 8 years.

Yeah. Building this thing for 8 years. You built the team. I imagine you're close with a lot of those people, and then one day you don't show up to work again. What's that like?

So it was good and bad, right? Because like, since I was aware of not wanting my identity tied to the company, I was also aware that my community was the company and, you know, our people in that industry, multifamily. And so I just accepted that I'm gonna leave this community behind afterwards, meaning that I won't, I don't have, like, if you, my Wheel of Life exercise, my friends score was a 3, right? Like I know that I didn't have community, so I knew that like, okay, once this thing happens, now I must go find community and quickly. So I joined 4 or 5 groups cuz that was part of the plan. It's like, no need to do this until once it happens then. Execute the plan, join PEF, Hampton, Long Angle, like just, you know, went into Sherri's group, just everything, right? To like, see what, what am I into? But I knew like some of the, some of the folks at, at the company I should have felt closer to, but I was keeping them kind of at arm's length because I didn't want to get too attached. So I was really conflicted where, because also one of our core values is authenticity. So that last year was very stressful for me because it was like, I I felt like I was having to lead two lives and that—

You knew you were leaving?

Yeah, I knew something was happening, but we, at first I thought he was leaving, but I was like, we can't talk about it. And then it's like, no, I'm leaving and we can't talk about it. And so, uh, yeah, we didn't, it all got announced on the same day, like wire hit and I'm outta here and I go to Chile. I think I just, just peace out, which worked, worked well for me then to not have to deal with all the questions and all the people and like, so I don't understand what's next, what's happening. And it was the holidays, so it was like people are forgetful by the time I'm back in the country and stuff. But yeah, I just, keeping that arm's length was challenging for me and made me not get as close to people as I should/maybe, or that I could have, I guess. And I'm still conflicted about that. And then I've worried about like, yeah, as I left my other companies or other organizations, I've kind of been, I'm, it was in survival mode so much that I wasn't keeping a lot of my old relationships and going into digital, it was then I kind of knew I wasn't going to keep those relationships because of how it was going down. I was like, I, cause I won't be able to be as me. Like, I won't be able to really share what I'm going through. Like, I won't be able to share, like, I'm working with this longevity doctor, like with these folks, since that'll bring up questions. The team's not aware about me, like getting a windfall or anything like that. So, so yeah, that just becomes challenging. So then therefore I know I can't hang out with those people because I want to be me and I don't want to have to worry what I say. So now I've just been spending those 5 months or whatever, like quickly building community.

Yeah. Which is, which is how we met. Super fun. We're in a core group together and, uh, this, this story is, is so fascinating to me because we, I mean, our, our, our paths are so opposite in so many ways. And so it's, it's really, it's really cool to be able to unpack here.

That's interesting because in our core group, I felt like we were the most similar or like had the most similar.

I think, I think from an emotional perspective, but, but financially, like I started making money very early on in my company and was taking it out.

And then you didn't know guacamole was $2.50.

Yeah. Yeah. I was a baller. Trust me. And, and like I said, I, I kind of did everything wrong. You did everything right. And, but at the same time, like this, this crazy analytical, you know, you're planning your exit 4 years out. Like, I wonder, like, you know, how do you think about that now? Like now you're living in freedom. Now you're, now you are waking up every day, don't have to go to an office. Where does that analytical researcher mind go now?

That's been the, so the hard, one of the hardest shifts for me is I knew, so I thought maybe I would buy another business, like leaving the company. 'Cause Nicole and I had started, since we weren't pulling money outta the company, we knew we needed to diversify because it started to feel too fragile, like that everything was tied up and we're not controlling it. So then last year at the beginning, we like joined Cody Sanchez's group and we were gonna go buy another business and right when we were starting that search is when this all started to happen. So now I just put it to like, okay, I guess I will buy our business. And then, so then I was still on that plan and that part of my exit was like, hey, I need to have enough funds in order to buy this next thing that became part of my getting to yes, like negotiation. 'Cause I was like, I need enough to buy this other thing, but not be risking it all. And so I thought that would happen, but I also told myself, I was like, I've read enough bad stories and heard enough interviews of people saying they wish they had taken a year off. I was like, man, a year feels like a long time. So I was like, Nicole, I'll give it 4 months. Let me go do some mountain climbing and stuff for 4 months. And then we'll, then, then we'll talk about if I buy something, but I, I, I won't do anything for at least that time. And that was so good cuz again, it's like I knew I should do a year, but I was like, if I can do 4 months and by the time 4 months came, I'd done enough other work and had enough space that I was like, cuz it was like, I won't think about the next business until 4 months happens. And so that gave me enough that when 4 months came, I'm like, why do I want to end this? This is pretty rad right now. And so anyway, so I, uh, so now I decided, okay, if I'm not working on the next thing and we could talk about like me not yet finding purpose, but how I'm dealing with that. If I can't yet find—

I definitely want to talk about that.

If I can't yet find my purpose, let me turn it internally and let me treat myself like a business. And so what on that wheel of life, let's get the friends and the fun up from a 3 to a 9, right? Like, what does that look like? What's the plan to get there? And then like, oh, the self-love thing, I should work on that. So I started to then like put together this almost like mind map of all these areas of the self I want to work on. I was like, shoot, this could be a decade. Frankly, it's a lifetime, but let's just say it's a decade. My next decade, what am I going to spend it doing? I said, let's just reframe it and say the next decade you spend on yourself, like just working on yourself. And that's how I've been spending each day right now is just let me work on myself. And that started very furiously with like books and workbooks. And then I was like, hey, part of this, a lot of the stuff I'm sure you've consumed too, is like, give yourself space, quiet time, meditate, breathwork. And so now I'm like, all right, let's— now I gotta start to slow down that like, must be achieving, must be like, must earn the day kind of mentality.

Yeah.

And I say, I'm still working on myself and I'm doing it slowly.

Well, and the, the very thing that makes you successful as an entrepreneur is this win the day. But you can't win self-love, right? Like, like you can't achieve your way to self-love. So there's, you have to start to learn grace, which might be counterproductive from a hustle culture, you know, build nose to the grindstone perspective. But when you're taking space for yourself, it's kind of the cornerstone.

Yeah. Working through it.

Yeah. And, and so, so how do you work through that right now? And what does finding purpose look like?

So 2 years ago I'd gone, I was like, my wife said I was unhinged. She's like, you're unhinged. I don't know that our staff knew that, but anybody close to me could feel it cuz I was feeling like, isn't like more the integrator mindset. We should be doing it this way, yet we're doing it this way. It doesn't make sense to me. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go on a personal retreat. So it was first like little personal retreat I did, went for 2 days to Vegas cuz we had a conference we were gonna be out there for. Normally I wouldn't choose Vegas, but. It was great. I basically was like, how can I find— I need to find purpose because then maybe that'll give me peace that digital is not the purpose. And I started to feel like digital is now default alive. So therefore, and it's not saving the planet, which always like, like bothered me. I wasn't like curing cancer, but it's like, we're slinging ads. Like what, like what am I contributing to the world? And I tricked myself for a while thinking we're giving employees a good place to work, you know, they get full benefits. We're going to be covering 100% of healthcare. It's a 32-hour work week. Like, this is a rad, kick-ass place to work, but we're not saving the planet. So anyways, at, on my retreat, I was, I really, it was kind of coming to a head of me searching for purpose. And I had this epiphany that like, what is purpose? I was like, well, I think it's something you love that you just can't stop doing. Okay, great. What do you love? Well, the only thing I'm sure of is my wife. At the time, I was like, if I didn't have my wife today, could I go out and force love to happen? No, I couldn't. So then why do I think I can force purpose? Why do I think I can just make it happen? So then I'm like, well, damn, dude, if that's the case, then you just need to be open for purpose to happen, similar to when I met my wife, and it will come to you, but put yourself in different situations that may facilitate but stop trying. It's like, okay, cool. So that was a big load off, but then it's like, now what? And, uh, so yeah, anyway, so that kicked off a lot of this develop, like self-development about like purpose. And then, and then it's like, how do you, what do you do in the meantime until purpose arrives? And there was this Harvard professor that also said that only 20% of people ever find purpose. So then I was like, well, why would I have the ego to think I land on purpose? And then I went through that Wheel of Life exercise, the Tony Robbins version. And when I was putting that together, I was trying to think of my hubcap for my like slices of the wheel. And I just kept coming back to live a life of adventure. And I was like, that's not saving the planet. It's like, but do you believe that everyone's purpose must be altruistic, save the world? I guess not. That doesn't seem fair. Like, cuz if you can love anyone, then you should be able to love any purpose. Like sort of that.

So.

Comparing it to love.

I love this.

So then I was like, great. And do you also believe that your, that your purpose must stay the same forever? Similar to that earlier, I was like, I must never change. It's like, no, if I give myself the grace to change my mind later, cool. Then for now, my purpose could be to live a life of adventure.

Heal.

And rest. Heal, sure.

Like, heal.

Chill out.

Rest. Yeah, exactly. And, and I would argue kind of having walked this path that it's really hard to find purpose until you've treated yourself like a business and done the work and kind of healed some of those old stories and those old wounds. Because if you don't, the new purpose will still be out of the old rather than what you get to step into. I mean, I never could have found— I mean, I couldn't have backed my way into coaching as a purpose. I couldn't have logic myself there, right? It just kind of showed up for me and now I leap out of bed every day to work, right? But if you told 25-year-old fighter pilot me like, hey, you're going to love, you know, coaching entrepreneurs and helping them find freedom and purpose and value. I mean, I would have laughed my ass off. I couldn't have foreseen that. And yet here we are and it's the coolest thing I've ever done and when I was open. And so I think that's really key is, and I was retired for a while. And then the other, the other big thing that I always tell exited founders, it's like, you have to shift the mindset from like entrepreneurs burn the boats. We're like, okay, this is what I'm doing. And now I'm going to put my head down and I'm going to finish and I'm never going to, never going to change my mind. Right. On the, on the post-exit side, It's like, hey, you get to try stuff on now. You'd be like, maybe I like pickleball and you can play pickleball a few times and be like, actually, this sucks. I don't like this game. And, and same thing with trying on purposes and businesses, like giving yourself permission to try shit on and then be like, do I even like this? And then like reserve the right to be like, nah, let's go somewhere else.

That's what I got out of Perkins' book. Like where he would, cause it also lines up with this other book Mastery, but it's like you do this thing and you like it because you're good at it. And the more, the better you are, the more you like it. It's like, well, what if you liked opera or whatever? He, in his book, he talks about trains.

Yep.

Right. It's like, I wouldn't know that unless I tried. So I was like, I better go try things. 'Cause slinging ads for multifamily, is that really it? I do have a question though, on your stuff with your, would you want to take, I don't even know how to frame this, but I struggle with this idea of like, I like to remove the word should. Yep. My vocabulary.

That's a good, that's a good start.

Yeah. But I also like the, I always think about the evolution and being better. Yeah. Right. And so then I think like, shoot, I do think I'm better, a better person, I guess now. And that's what I like to believe with the growth mindset. But if you then took, you know, Matt from now and put him back at the beginning of your entrepreneurial journey, is that a good thing or not a good thing? Like basically, was it— I don't ever regret anything. And yet I wonder like, should this version of me have existed? That's the should thing. But you know what I'm saying? Like, there's this thing of like, I love, like, I'm trying to love who I become now, but I loved who I was then, but then there was the journey.

Yeah. So, so I would argue a couple of things on this. Number one is you can't actually become something different than you already are. And what you're actually going through is the process of unbecoming. So You know, my journey has been about burning everything that's false and first identifying those things, right? So maybe that is a core belief of like, I'll just be happy when, okay, actually that's bullshit, right? Because all of the data, all of the science, all of the anecdotal evidence says that if we set a goalpost and we hit it, we're just going to move the goalpost. So I'll just be happy when must be fundamentally false. And then where can I go through and just categorically eliminate untruth? Like, and you've got to hate the dissonance of untruth. More than the perceived pain of changing or letting it go. So I would just say like, you gotta get really good at changing your mind because there's a lot of sacred cows to burn out there until you start to reveal that version of yourself that you've always been. Right. So it's really about a process of remembering rather than becoming different. And when you go through the process of remembering, then you realize that, that guy 10 years ago, like there was actually no other way for him to be like, that was part of the process. And there's, that's where that, that self-love, that grace comes in and go like, you know, I was doing the best I could with the information I had. I'm a product of my environment and my experiences and, you know, so like one thing that happened for me, you know, like I can't turn the show around. This is good. Do you have a podcast or anything? We do. Yeah. Yeah.

I love for the business we did. I don't know how it'll go now, but Yeah.

You know, starting to, to not only, so there's accepting those parts of yourself. That's going like, well, I don't really like that, that part, but I guess, I guess it's okay if it's here to actually go on.

Oh wow.

I see how valuable this was on the journey. Right. And that those, those parts of us tend to be our superpowers until they become a limitation. Right. So not advocating for yourself was a survival strategy. When you're a kid, then, and I call this divine assignments from the universe, right? Like this was your survival strategy, but then at some point it doesn't work anymore and you've got, you get, you get the opportunity to build a new one. And so being mad at the kid who built, you know, not advocating as a survival strategy is kind of ridiculous. Got, it's got you, it got you here. And now there's so much fun. There's creativity and joy in being like, Cool. That doesn't work anymore. Let me burn that one down. And what do I get to build next?

The, the part you mentioned about the, like, I'll be happy when— I didn't really ever feel that myself, but the way I was getting through the goalpost moving, I did relate to. And my big unlock there was let me write down at the beginning of the year what I'd be happy with. And then I'd revisit that every quarter. And it's like a lot of times I'd passed it and I'd be like, Great. Kick ass, dude. Like old self was happy about where you'd be now. So there's nothing to be, you can't, you can't ask for more if you would've made your old self proud. And so that was, that was, yeah, that was just a huge unlock for me versus like, I could always do more. It's like, yes, you can always do more, but if you're setting your goal for yourself, whatever back then, and maybe that's different than some entrepreneurs overreach in the year, but underreach in 10 years. But I've always been pretty measured, I guess, with that.

Well, so, you know, kind of recapping the journey. Number one is you didn't start off with grand plans. You were just seeking security. And then, you know, and I want to give credit where credit's due. Like, it didn't just work out, but it kind of did. Like, now you're kind of in this place. It worked out. You got a windfall that you weren't even actually planning on. What does wealth mean to you now?

I don't know that I could do better than like Perkins, like health, health, wealth, and time. Right. So, and he didn't, I don't think he said this in the book, but it's like a wealthy man has 100 problems and a sick man has one. Right. Like, so I think about that a lot now. So a lot of like post-exit has been focused on longevity, just building the team, like again, in preparation, like I just turned 40, so. How do I make sure I'm doing everything now to prevent things, you know, in the future? So to me, it, it's more about now that the wealth is secured, it's more about the time and the health. And so how am I deliberately spending the time and how am I making sure health, you know, lasts as long as possible?

Yeah, I love that. Well, it sounds like you're doing a great job and figuring out as you go and, and, and working on what's important, so. Very cool. Sounds like a great spot to be.

It's a great spot to be.

Yeah.

I've always felt like my life is a great spot to be regardless, you know? But yeah, I'm very happy. Yeah.

Amazing, man. Well, listen, thanks for, thanks for joining me today. What a conversation. Your story is, is wild. And I really appreciate you sharing it with us.

Thanks, Mike.

What are you up to? Where can people find you? Any, or are you disappearing off the face of the earth for a little while?

You know, it's funny, like, even though like social was our second biggest revenue driver, I don't have social accounts. Like I had LinkedIn, but I never am on. I had an employee handle my LinkedIn.

Yeah, nailed it.

So I, yeah, I, and I'm so grateful I made that decision not to be on social. Sorry for you. So yeah, no, I'm just, I mean, you got, you can put my email in the show notes, you know, my personal email.

We'll skip your personal email in the show notes.

I don't care. Like, I'm not going to lie.

You get to disappear and go climb mountains. You've earned it.

Yeah, but if someone wants to climb a mountain, then they should reach out.

Cool.

Yeah.

All right, man. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

All right.

Cheers.