Why Achieving Everything Doesn’t Fix Anything (Eric Spett)
Eric Spett built Terminus into a multi-nine-figure SaaS company, but 100-hour work weeks led to burnout and depression. After selling in 2019, he struggled with identity loss and anxiety. Now he coaches other B2B SaaS founders through Scalebound, focusing on business strategy and mental health.
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I was building a company. I didn't have the mentors and advisors, and I was really in my parents' basement, and I felt that it was— if you're not working 100 hours a week, if you're not sacrificing everything, you're doing it wrong.
What was missing, in your opinion, that caused you to dive in with 100-hour weeks? All these things that were supposed to be solved when I finally had enough money. Damn it, it's not the answer.
What did I do all that work for? What did I take all that risk for? What did I go into all that debt for? What did I make all that sacrifice for?
How did feel.
I was at rock bottom. It took more than a year to actually dig myself out of the hole. It's a tough way to experience life. There was a morning I just like stopped dead in my tracks and like, I think like shed a few tears because I just had this moment of like, where is Eric?
And it's, uh, great question.
One of the realizations of like starting to dig into this stuff is— and was like, oh my gosh, I feel like myself again.
Welcome to Money Stories, where we have real conversations about wealth and what makes a truly rich life. Today we've got a very special guest, my dear friend, one of my favorite humans, founder of Terminus, a multi-nine-figure B2B SaaS company. Uh, he exited that company in 2019, and now he helps other SaaS founders scale with his coaching program Scalebound. And just overall great dude. Super stoked to be hanging with you. Welcome to the show, Eric Spat.
Happy to be here. Cool, man.
Well, listen, I'm really excited for today's conversation. I've had a front row seat to your journey and, you know, one of the reasons I started this show is to dig into, you know, the hidden dark sides of entrepreneurship and, and really have conversations about the true cost of the journey. And there's plenty of places where we can go and get the hero's journey of, of building a multi-nine-figure company. But I'd really like to dig into maybe some of the parts people don't see and what happens behind the scenes. So here's where I'd like to start. How did you grow up with money and where did your drive to become an entrepreneur come from?
Got it. So we're getting right into it.
Digging right in, bro.
So how did I grow up with money? It's a good question. You know, I don't think I thought about it too much until really around college. I mean, my upbringing was, I would say, down the middle, middle class, maybe, maybe upper middle class. And, you know, come from divorced parents and think that that certainly influences my, my views on money and a lot of things in my life. And definitely always knew I wanted to make money. And I'm sure like, you know what, who doesn't? You know, who grows up and says, I don't want money. Let me, let me just work for free. But always from a very young age, found myself feeling entrepreneurial. I probably early on wouldn't have like called it that, but I always sort of figuring out a hustle or how to make a little bit more than all of my friends. I remember in high school I was doing a work program and I ended up working at a local church and somehow I weaseled my way into a rev share on the birthday parties that, that I was hosting and leading. And so I had this like 50% rev share on these birthday parties. Then I would get these tips. It was in a very like wealthy part of town and it just kind of went on from there. I went from that to being I went to a golf caddy. I had my fair share of like character-building kind of jobs, but especially as I got into college, I just always knew like that I wanted to make money. And I would say my first foray into entrepreneurship was truly during my senior year at college. I went to the University of Georgia up at Athens. Go Dawgs! And you know, I'd always had these side hustles, but never was like, I'm starting a business.
Yeah.
And my junior year of college, I had an internship at a Fortune 500 company and once again figured out how it was like— it was crazy. It was like $40 an hour.
Killing it.
So made a ton, but it was like it was soul-sucking. And I knew middle of the summer, I actually called my roommate at the time a guy from Philadelphia named Dave and was like, hey man, this, this, this work stuff is a little bogus. Like, let's, let's get back to school and start a company. And so I'm sure we'll get into it, but that was my first, you know, started my first software company during my senior year of college and never looked back. I mean, my whole career has been all software entrepreneurship. And I think the real question you were asking is what drove that? Right, right. And so it's something I've actually had a chance to reflect on now post-exit when I've had some time to reflect. And obviously my work with you and going to, you know, Tony Robbins' Date with Destiny, and I've done a fair share of, you know, workshops, retreats, meditation retreats, like, you know, had a chance to look at it. And, you know, I think like probably similar to most of the guests on your show, kind of cutting straight to what I learned is like the drive and ambition, which I had in spades and spades and spades. I mean, I'm, you know, reasonably intelligent, but certainly not the smartest guy in the room. But I was damn sure willing to work, you know, 10x harder than anyone else in the room. And that, that started at a pretty early age. And so as I unpack that, it comes back to proving yourself. It comes back to enoughness. It likely goes back to my parents' divorce and like what I experienced growing up, even though it wasn't conscious. Like, I had a great childhood. I had parents who loved me. But now I can look back and, you know, as you read about what does a secure attachment look like and what, what, you know, what do you really need growing up, you know, it's clear that like probably 90% of people out there like there are some, some, some calories, some macronutrients that might not have been filled. And I have to imagine that it's those things that drove that. Like, why am I willing to work 100 hours a week? Why? And we can go in any direction you want to go, but like, why am I going to go $100K into credit card debt with no idea why I'm really doing it? It just, it felt like the right thing to do. And I never thought about it until I had some room to breathe after the fact.
I always say one of the gifts of exiting a company while you're young enough to enjoy it is that, that space, because you have to answer the questions of, okay, I've built my identity around this thing for most of us. Now there's this vacuum in my life, and what comes up in that space is typically discomfort. And when you lean into that discomfort, you have the opportunity to pull on those threads and go, Wait a minute, like these things that made me wildly successful maybe weren't coming from the best place. So as you dug in, and the thing about, about childhood is none of us get out unscathed, right? We have the best parents in the world and there's maybe a teacher that says one thing that makes us, you know, drive into entrepreneurship. So what do you think it was for you? What was missing in your opinion that caused you to, dive in with 100 Hour Weeks?
It's a great question. You know, one of the things that when, when people ask me, because I did, as you know, I took a bunch of time off and I traveled and I was advising companies and coaching CEOs and investing. But like, I had a good while where, where my life was more focused on the sabbatical mindset and kind of really swinging that pendulum. But one of the things that I always tell people is like that time the gift of that— I wasn't married, don't have kids, don't have kids just yet. No, no mortgage, no house. It's like I got as clean a look in the mirror as one can get. Like, no existential crises, no, no driving need for cash or anything like that. Where is Eric? And it's a question. Yeah, it's a big question. And it's kind of scary because then you realize Oh, all this stuff that I attributed to growing the company and running the company, all the stress, all the anxiety, all of the things that come with that. I was like, oh, they're still here. Oh no, I thought they were all going to go away. It's like, oh, maybe I have some work to do.
Yeah, it's definitely a realization that, that hits every post-exit founder I know at some point. If they don't jump right back into building another company, which many do, which many do. Great. A great way to avoid having to answer those questions. But you got the gift of, of having to look in the mirror. So the way I always put it is I woke up and I was still the same person and I was like, oh no. Yeah, the anxiety didn't go away. All these, all these things that were supposed to be solved when I finally had enough money.
Damn it.
It's not the answer.
It's pretty jarring.
Can be quite jarring. So what did you start to uncover?
You know, it, it, it was and continues to be quite the process. I think a never, never-ending process, although I've, you know, I've had some cycles of it. And what's crazy about it is you feel like you're making progress, or you go to some retreat, or you go do something, and like, it's like, oh, I figured it out.
This must be it.
This must be it. And after the, you know, the afterglow of whatever work you were doing or journaling or reflection or whatever that period of effort was, you know, things sort of maybe revert back a little bit closer to the mean. Yeah, maybe it's 5% different, 10% different, 20% different. But you still end up looking back, you still end up looking in the mirror and you're like, oh, I still got a lot of this stuff going on. And so I would say to answer the question, it's like, what did I uncover? There's so much. There's the, the time and space to reflect on like what we were talking about here is like, what was it that actually drove me to be an entrepreneur? And, you know, for me it was always securing financial independence. And I know that people, most people say like it's about the vision or it's about the customer or it's about this or it's about that. And I, I always felt like for me it was like, I want to be financially independent so that I can create the life that I want to create. And now it's funny because I look back and tell entrepreneurs all the time, it's like your company is never going to be the same as it is today. And while we're all driving to some destination, we forget to really enjoy the journey while we're on it. And so, you know, going back, there's a lot of reflection on why I behaved the way I behaved and acted and drove the way that I drove. Some of it certainly points back to childhood. Some of it, I think, just points to the influences that I had around me growing up. And, you know, especially as I was getting older and you'd go to someone's house and you're like, oh, this is This is nice. You hear kind of the Christmas or the Hanukkah presents. You're like, ooh, that's a little different. And don't get me wrong. I had a wonderful childhood, but you, you know, I can look back and just see, okay, there was like a constellation of things that led to it. And it's almost like, you know, it's a little bit art. It's a little bit science. It's a little bit astronomy. It's a little bit biology. And one of the realizations of like starting to dig into this stuff is you never actually know. Like, it's not like you have a thought or you have a journal or you have a reflection or you have a conversation.
You're like, it was that day.
I figured it out. Yeah, it was that specifically. You get good ideas and you get good instincts. But ultimately what I found the process to be is like a very long, ongoing, sometimes exhilarating, sometimes frustrating, sometimes maddening process of just peeling back the layers and peeling back layers. And sometimes it's like, shoot, the layer, the layer— can we curse? Are we cursing?
Oh yeah.
It's like, shit, the, the, the layer grew back and then you have to peel it back again. But it's gone in so many directions, but it's really just like You never actually know, but you know that if you keep exploring and talking about it and reflecting and whatever it is to you, for some people it's endurance sports, for some people it's hiking, for some people it's meditation retreats, for some people it's plant medicine. Like there's 8 million paths you can go to sort of explore, but you never actually know. So you really have to, to go in a lot of directions and just sort of keep peeling and keep peeling. And over time it's like, Oh, you know, this, this onion only has a few, few layers left. Like, I'm closer and I, I like the way this feels. I've shed some of these later layers. I do feel lighter. I look back over the last couple of years, it's like, oh, I have felt lighter consistently. Some of the stuff that I uncovered must have been right or must have like just helped me understand myself and accept and, and figure out where do I want to go from here?
Yeah, I mean, really, what I'm hearing you say is that it kind of mirrors the journey of building a company, right? It's like, yeah, we're trying to get somewhere, but you've got to enjoy the process at some point, right? Because if you're solely focused on putting your life off and go, I'll just be happy when, right? Standing on top of that mountain, the view's empty. And with personal development, I find the same to be true, is you have to be committed to the process. Of unbecoming, of shedding layers, of letting go of old identities that are no longer serving. And it doesn't happen at once. And if you, if you start the journey with the outcome, with the destination in mind, it's going to be endlessly frustrating. But if you start from a place of just commitment to truth, hey, I'm going to burn away everything that's untrue, burn away everything that's not serving me. Over time, you do see that compounding effect where you wake up a couple of years later and go, oh shit, yeah, I do feel better. All right, let's keep going. Right. And, and I just want to— having been in both a part of and witness to your process, something I've always really admired about you is your commitment to the work. Right. And that is, you know, not everyone's willing to burn away what's untrue. And I've always been impressed with your dedication to to truth-seeking.
Yeah, and I appreciate that. And, you know, we were talking about this just last night of, you know, when we met, which was closer to a decade ago than not, I was a very different Eric. The energy I was giving off was— everything was different. I was in it. You know, I was in the trenches. I was in battle. And now we've had the chance to kind of reacquaint and get to know each other kind of in this different chapter. But I think what you brought up is like, I know the same was true for you, even going back as far as time in the Navy and probably even before that, is that for me, the starting that path of like personal growth and personal development, it was in service of, of the business. It was in service of the revenue. It was in service of the exit. I knew especially, you know, I was relatively young when I started Terminus. I think I was 24. That I was like, oh, this is like really working. I need to stay ahead of this, which prompted me to kind of lean into, you know, all the stuff we love to talk about and all these practices. And I definitely like I was drawn to that. I was like super drawn to that as an entrepreneur. And I think what, you know, you're, you're articulating is that it's carried through post-exit. I'm still interested in exploring and learning and growing. But now it's, it's in service of something else. It's in service of like, who is the Eric that I want to become? The father, the friend, like, you know, the, the what do I— the eulogy, like, what do I want people to say? Because that's, that's not how I was living when I was building the company. And even after exiting the company, it's like it took a long time to reorient. And something that we talk about all the time is like, you know, don't really have to work anymore. And if I can't now chisel myself into that person that I really want to become, and that's not just saying like, oh, there's always more work to do. Like, I'm just going to be neurotic and always push the goalpost out further. It's like, no, like there's an Eric that I want to become. I'm entering into different chapters of life of like kind of really settling and I'm recently married and we're planning on having children. And it's like, if I can't do that work now, then I've got no shot. It's not like, oh, well, after I build the next one or after this, I get liquidity from this investment or that, it's like, no, there's, there's no excuse left that like, I know there's a path that I want to take and that I want to be on. And it's funny to look back. It's like kind of that personal growth and self-development work has been constant. But the driver behind it has certainly changed.
Yeah, it makes total sense because in the absence of external motivation, now you've got to find an intrinsic reason to do the work, right? And that intrinsic reason is always going to be more rewarding. It's always going to be closer to center of who you want to become. But, but take me back a little bit. You know, you've mentioned grinding, working really hard, maybe, maybe doing some of the putting off your life until the exit. Take me back to some of the hard times in building a multi-nine-figure company, because I know it's not easy. What were some of the tough times?
So honestly, it's like, it's painful to kind of have to put myself, to have to put myself back there. I mean, I'll take it even further back to the first company that I started while I was still in college. It was called Fishlist. It was an online marketplace for wholesale seafood. Basically like LinkedIn for the, for the commercial seafood industry, which great idea, way too early. So I got my, I got my master's in market and timing matters a lot. But if I look back at that, that was a really dark period. I was building a company. I, didn't have the mentors and advisors that I did with Terminus or that I do now. And I was really kind of literally in my parents' basement and I thought that it was, hey, if you're not working 100 hours a week, you're doing it wrong. If you're not sacrificing everything, you're doing it wrong. I was also, you know, just, just out of college at the time. So you can do a fair bit of damage to yourself that, you know, at this age you just can't do anymore. Your body and brain just, just sort of tell you no. But, you know, coming out of that first company, Fishlist, I was definitely clinically depressed. I didn't know it. I didn't know the label at the time, but I had been feeling it for probably 18 months before I decided that I needed to do something about it. I was about $100,000 in credit card debt. This was back when you could just get out 6 credit cards with, you know, $20,000 limits and 0% balance transfers. And I played that game. And, you know, as we know, being, being in debt definitely takes a toll. I was not exercising. I was probably like 20 pounds underweight. I was in a toxic relationship. I mean, true rock bottom, like not found myself at a point where I literally couldn't get off the couch for about a month. And the reason that I actually stopped doing building Fishlist was that my mom, I went to visit her in New York and she saw where I was at and like I got home and she was like, she called me up. She was like, Eric, I've been thinking about it. It's time to call your business partner and tell him like, you can't do this anymore. You need to get a job. You need to fix yourself. And, you know, I would say that process probably took, you know, it took another 12 to 18 months for me to get back to a point where I actually felt like myself again, like my ambitions were back, my energy was back. Moved in with my, all of my college roommates to, you know, a post-college house and the social life was back. I was out of the relationship. Those were some, some really, really dark times. And, you know, I've gone through my fair share of challenges since then and, and happy to talk about the challenges at Terminus, but I think that first company really took the biggest toll. And I really hope that I never am back anywhere remotely close to that place because it was scary. And it like, you know, now looking back, it's, it's a blessing in a way because I learned so much from it. And I, You know, I also appreciate my parents. My parents are divorced. I, you know, I appreciate both sets of my parents for kind of letting me go through that experience to a point and letting me try my hand in entrepreneurship and starting a company. I turned down some amazing job offers, but that first one, it took it out of me for quite some time and it really, really humbled me.
And I think I can draw the conclusion here, but I'm going to guess that company was not a resounding success.
Oh no. You know, we thought at that time that we were very much, if you build it, they will come. And so we just kept toiling and building. I mean, we had the world's greatest business card. I mean, we probably spent 2 weeks designing that thing. We were just, you know, straight out of college, focused on all the right stuff, literally like my business partner moved into my parents' basement with me, with his dog, and we were just kind of in this dungeon with no oxygen and no— not, not too much in the way of guidance. And, you know, kind of if you're talking about building a successful company, we did almost everything wrong for a pretty sustained period of time.
There's two ways to go about it, the easy way and the hard way. It sounds like you picked the tough one.
Well, there's no easy way. Yeah, but we picked the You know, we chose to climb Mount Everest when we could have, you know, done Stone Mountain in Atlanta or something like that.
Yeah, I know. I, I definitely get that. And so there you are in this really dark place and your mom comes to you and says, hey, you got to, you got to make a change. What was that like to hear that from her in that moment?
I think it's funny. I can actually get back there. Pretty easily. And it was just like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. It was like a permission. It was like permission to stop trying to build the company and to just sort of let it go and to get out of the hole. So I definitely, I just remember immediately after that conversation, it resonated. I wasn't arguing with her. I wasn't like, Mom, you don't understand. I was like, she's right and I should take this advice. And I, you know, took, took action right then. I literally hung up the phone with her and I called Dave and was like, hey man, I'm sorry if I'm letting you down, but I just, I can't do this anymore and I need to go get a job and I need to take care of myself. And he was, he was great about it. He was like, I totally, totally understand whatever you need. He was super supportive. And it's pretty funny because as you know, I took, took a week or so to, to get my resume together. It was painful. Like I was just out of brain cells. I was, I was in the pits. As soon as I started taking action and reaching out to people, within 2 weeks of that conversation with my mom, I ended up in the opportunity and with a new mentor. And someone in my life that, you know, continues to this day to be someone that I attribute so much of my success to. And so when it's like, when you kind of look back at how things unfolded and how, how things went, it's like, man, it was perfect. I mean, it was painful, but it was perfect because the experience with that company, Fishlist, 100%, I can see exactly how it led into the path that ultimately became a success. And again, that's not to say that there wasn't tons of challenging seasons across, you know, every part of the journey, as there continues to be today. But it— what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It is, it is true.
Yeah. I mean, ultimately, pain is a, is a very effective teacher and You know, I never want to begrudge someone of the journey, but, but I say often, like, we can be grateful for the lessons and the wisdom, but you don't have to be grateful for the pain. And it sounds like that was a really tough time. So how did you carry that into Terminus? You know, something I hear young people ask a lot is like, how do I find a mentor? And it sounds like you're a total mess. Like, if we're being— if we're being honest here, right? So you're in this kind of downtrodden state, how do you get a great mentor into your life at that point?
Yeah, so this was, you know, one of the things, one of my superpowers for sure, always has been, is just being resourceful, being persistent, and just like, you know, I've always figured out a way to get into the door or into the conversation, whatever it might be, whether it was a specific class or a teacher that I wanted to be in their class, like always figured out a way. And so the gentleman that I was referring to earlier is a guy in Atlanta named David Cummings, who is— I have no words. I feel like, and I don't even feel like this is an understatement, that he's like the Warren Buffett of, of software, of B2B software. And now so much more. I mean, today he owns, I think it's 7% of downtown Atlanta. He's doing a huge revitalization project. He was for a long time, the only outside investor in Calendly, which was a huge success. Another company called Salesloft in Atlanta that was a huge success. And that list goes on and on. I had met David when I was still in college, and I'll tell an embarrassing story here. So I got connected to another guy in Atlanta named Alan Graber, and we were going to pitch to Alan, and Alan happened to be working out of David's office at the time at a company he was running called Pardot. And David was maybe 30 at the time. And it's me and my business partner Dave, and we're college students and still partying and we're a mess. And we're, you know, we went to his office in Atlanta to pitch for an angel investment and we pitched the Fishlist idea and we talked about, oh, we're going to go into grain and poultry and we're going to, you know, we're going to take over the world. And David chimed in and gave us some very sage advice, which was, Why don't you just focus on one market first and the one where you have the connections and the information and just stay focused on that? And ultimately, on the spot, which I really appreciate and respect, declined to invest and gave us the reasons. And I remember walking out of his office that day and told, told my business partner, I was like, man, what does that guy know? We're going to, we're going to be billionaires by the time we're his age. Fast forward, it's maybe happened a little bit in the, in the inverse direction. And so fast forward 3 years from that meeting, I'm in this pit of despair. I'm making a list of people to reach out to. And I probably wrote the most important email of my life, which is it was 2 weeks after David had sold that company Pardot to ExactTarget, which there's very shortly thereafter got acquired by Salesforce. Bootstrapped company, tremendous exit. David is maybe 32, 33 at the time, and I just sent him an email that said, hey, David, don't know if you remember me. We met a few years ago. I've decided that I'm putting Fishlist to bed for these reasons. And I would— said something to the tune of, I would do anything for the opportunity to be a part of whatever you're going to do next. And I've realized that it's time for me to learn rather than earn. And I'll do anything and everything to be a part of your next story. And so, yeah, and still have the email and met him. He asked me to meet at a local Starbucks the next day and kind of asked me a handful of questions and then said, great, I'm starting this new company. It's called Kebi. I'll hire you as a software engineer. And I was like, I only sort of know how to write code. Like, I'm not definitely not a software engineer. He's like, it's okay, you're smart, you'll learn. And that was the beginning of experiencing David's superpower, which is finding people, setting vision. And I've never seen anybody who is able to say— I've never met anybody who's able to stay so abstracted and just put trust and confidence and faith into the people that he hires. And so went to go work for David for a year and a half. In that time, he bought a 100,000-square-foot building on one of the busiest intersections in Atlanta, transformed that into the Atlanta Tech Village. And I share that because I basically was smack dab in the middle of the ecosystem working with David. And a year and a half into that, it was actually funny. And I'll tie it back to the story. There was a morning, this was just before New Year's heading into 2014, and I was walking into this Atlanta Tech Village parking deck and I just like stopped dead in my tracks and like, I think like shed a few tears because I just had this moment of like, I'm back. Like, oh wow. It was like 18 months or so. I had gone to therapy. I'd moved in with my best friends, like you know, I'd paid off some of my debt and was like, oh my gosh, I feel like myself again. And that day I was having a lunch on the calendar with David, went to a local Houston's and, you know, I was back to myself again. So of course I was doing Eric things and, you know, here I am, this like still young 20, 23-year-old at the time. And I was like, hey David, Basically, I'd like to be on the executive team of Käfi. And he said, you know, not sure yet, probably too early, but you know, my hunch is in the next 12 months, you'll probably start another company. And I was like, no way, man. Like I've been there, done that. I just got to feeling good again. But I, you know, I cataloged that in my brain. And I, I knew what he meant after a little bit of thinking about it, because David had a, what, a very successful pattern of taking entrepreneurs. And one of the things that he looks for is previous failure and people that have been humbled, which I had in spades, and people who consistently throughout their life have had a chip on their shoulder. And he's just a really good read of people. And so I knew what he was saying was If you want to start a company, I've got the money. And so I spoke to a handful of the other CEOs that I know that he had invested in because we all worked in the same building. And, you know, about 3 weeks later, I went back to David and I said, hey, I've been thinking about what you said about starting another company. And I just— David's pretty— he'd be a great poker player. I don't think he gambles, but he'd be great. It's hard. Hard, hard to read. But man, he had a sparkle in his eye. He was like, it was like he caught the fish. And, and to this day, he'll still say that it was my idea, not his. But I like this guy is just so, so smart. And, you know, basically he was like, okay, here's the deal. Here's how this is going to work. And I was like, yeah, it sounds good, but let's negotiate a little bit. He was like, okay, so here's the deal. Here's how this is going to work. Why don't you get started next week? And so Terminus actually started— David owned the domain terminus.com. Terminus is the original name of the city of Atlanta, which is where we live. And there was no idea. It was just, you're going to start a company and, you know, $300K investment and this should last you 24 months and let's go find you a technical co-founder and we'll figure out the idea. And so that was the beginning of, of the Terminus story of like just David 100% betting on me in the riskiest way possible. I didn't even have an idea, much less something on a napkin, much less an MVP. He just said, you know, Eric's meant to be an entrepreneur and I'm going to enable that and I'm going to put him in an environment where he can thrive and be successful. And I'm happy to go more into the Terminus journey. But what was frustrating to me wildly back then I couldn't get an answer out of David. I would, I would, you know, he was collaborative, but anytime I tried to get him to solve one of my problems or give me the answer, which I knew he knew the answer, what did he say? Whatever you think. What do you think is best? I trust you to make this decision. And it was frustrating at the time. I was like, this guy owns so much of the company and he knows the answers and like, why won't he just like, give me the answer. And now I look back and I was like, wow, he was developing me. He trusted me. He knew that he was interested in working with founders and CEOs who were either going to sink or swim based on, you know, what they're made of and what they're capable of. And if, if he has to get that deep into it, then it's probably not the right person and it's probably not the right fit. And it's not to say he wasn't abundantly helpful because he was. But man, did he make me make my own decisions. And can I look back and say, wow, talk about what developed me and what made me grow and what pushed the envelope for me. And it was that, you know, I could use the word leadership. It was, it was that type of leadership and seeing that demonstrated not just with me, but with others. So it was just incredibly powerful.
Yeah, I mean, I— what strikes me in this story is being at this rock bottom place to being back 18 months later to then have someone of this caliber just believe in you 100%. How did that feel?
Pretty amazing. I mean, like pinching myself amazing. You know, one of the things I always like to share with, with anyone, not just founders and CEOs, but And when you find those people who believe in you more than you believe in yourself, you latch on to them and you don't come across them very often. You know, maybe, maybe 1 or 2 in a decade. And, you know, when I reflect back as we're having this conversation, like when David hired me as a software engineer, I was at rock bottom. I mean, it's like if this guy knew what I'm dealing with when I go home, Like, how did— how— like, he just saw past all of that. And it, you know, it took the better— it took more than a year of even while I was working for him and with him to actually dig myself out of the hole. And through all of that, it's like he saw through it and he saw who I was and what I was capable of. And to this day, I'll just— every opportunity I get, I make sure that he knows how impactful he was to my life. And, you know, all these employees that we were able to hire, we had a couple hundred employees at the time of leaving Terminus. And, you know, he's done that with like 20 people at this point. It's, it's, it's remarkable.
What a gift.
What a gift.
And so now here you are, still ridiculously young.
24.
24. And is it an immediate rocket ship ride? Like, how did, how did it work?
Yeah. So David had built— David's company was called Pardot, which was a marketing automation software. So in the B2B marketing technology space, and David and I were kicking around all sorts of ideas. He was very collaborative in the ideation. What's the market? What's the category? We were looking at everything. I mean, he had just bought this this 100,000 square foot building. We were talking about building like access control software. We were talking about like, I can't remember the exact idea, but like something that would literally just scrape the entire internet. And he had seen an article that he just forwarded to me with just like the words interesting. And it was when this, again, this is almost 10 years ago, or it is 10 years ago, that Facebook and Twitter allowed custom and tailored audiences, meaning that you can advertise digitally, digital ads to people based on their email address and there was a matching. And so the concept, as I noodled on that, was like, wow, we could actually build a marketing automation platform, which is how companies send out their emails. But what if we could actually serve digital ads based on what stage a certain company was at in their CRM? So the one-liner was that Terminus would essentially follow prospects and accounts throughout the sales cycle and change up the digital ads that the entire company would receive as another touchpoint in the sales process. And so what we realized with that was once we gave people the power to target not just a person, not just an email address, a lead, but an entire account, they had never had that power before. So that led its way into something much bigger called account-based marketing, which we were one of the pioneers of, and today is a an established category with, with multiple players, but very tactically, again, resourcefulness coming through is we kind of had a one-liner, what we want to build. And the funny thing is, is we went on a wild goose chase a little bit, but we came back to that exact thing, which is what Terminus became. But I literally, I probably did in 3 months like 150 to 200 calls with everyone, all of the the technology companies, all of the, the potential partners, all of the data players, different B2B customers. I even at the time I left the old company on my LinkedIn, Kevvy, but was actually working on this other thing. So I actually went through the sales process of everyone who would eventually become a competitor and learned every nook and cranny. And it was like, I call that the mad scientist days because we just figured out all this stuff we could do, and then we started pitching it, and we started selling it not as a SaaS or software or subscription, but just as like a managed ad campaign. And then we slowly built components of software based on these campaigns that we were running. And so we did that for about a year. So like from day one, no idea, to that, we did a year, was able to sell like a million bucks of these ad campaigns, but it wasn't a software company. And then we made this really hard decision that was, all right, we're going to stop doing these managed ad campaigns agency style and we're going to start selling this like very fledgling subscription SaaS product that we had built. We sold our first deal for $250 a month.
All right, let's go.
And we were off to the races. And from there, I was lucky enough to have a great technical co-founder. And then we also brought in another co-founder who was a marketer. It was his problem space and his gift was evangelism and storytelling. And he helped turn our, this really effective digital ad platform that we had into this bigger concept of account-based marketing. And then we started doing the, we called it flipping the funnel. So rather than, rather than the wide funnel at the top, narrow at the bottom, you start narrow with your target accounts. And then widen it by more personalized, more channels, more, more outreach. And this flip my funnel concept really resonated. And so what we always said was the brand was driving the demand and the brand wasn't even as much about Terminus as it was about helping people understand that there's a better way and to flip the funnel. And so from there, we— it was lightning in a bottle. It was rocket ship growth. We went on to raise, you know, many many tens of millions of dollars of venture capital and, you know, did the Series A, Series B, Series C, at which point a growth equity firm came into the business. And so it was, it was not easy, but man, it was so fun. And, you know, I'm sure you feel this sometimes, like I would give a lot, a lot to go back to get to experience those highs and those lows. Because I didn't fully appreciate them the way I can appreciate them now while I was in it.
There'll, there'll never be another first company. I love it. Well, you know, we've already touched on the, the mental health side of the journey and how important that's been for you. So as you're on this rocket ship ride, walk me through your mental health and how did that track?
Up and down.
Yeah.
So I'm definitely like, and I'm not shy about talking about it. I'm definitely predisposed to mental health challenges. You know, pretty most of my family is. And I think that the experience with, with Fish List really kind of amped it up and it's sort of always been there. And so for me, it was a rocky ride. You know, and it's, it's crazy because when you're at the office and especially when you're hiring out a senior executive team and you've got hundreds of employees, like, no matter how you're feeling when the office— when you're in the office, you have to be on. But when you're, when you're home, you could even be more depleted because not only are you having to deal with what you're going through emotionally, but you also had to spend your entire day pretending like life is great. And keeping everything afloat. And so for me, you know, I would say every 12 to 18 months over the, the 6 or so years I was running the company, I had a major mental health challenge.
And what would that look like?
So for me, it, it starts with, with anxiety and what that means to me or what, what I experience is I basically start having ruminating thoughts around a certain thing and it gets stronger and stronger over time to the point where I can't really compartmentalize. And I'm in these, I'm in these ruminative loops. Tough word.
Yeah.
And then there's another loop and then there's another loop and then there's another loop and then there's another loop. And pretty soon anything that's coming my way in life or in business is, is this loop that's kind of like, it's almost like a screwdriver that's just tightening and tightening and tightening. And as these loops in their intensity kind of build up, which might be really hard for someone to understand who's never experienced this, it becomes debilitating. Your head becomes so noisy that you really just can't function. And also You spend, you know, everybody knows decision fatigue is a real thing. You know, Mark Zuckerberg, whatever color t-shirt he wore, it's like, yeah, let's like, let's try to minimize decisions. When, when you're in this ruminative, anxious place, your brain is working like 200%. And over a period of days and weeks and months, it just, you're just in bed. You can't even get up. There's, there's, there's nothing left. And so for me, one thing that was really challenging, and this happened earlier in my life, is like, I, you know, started in therapy and ultimately started taking Zoloft, which is an SSRI, and found that like, you know, there's sort of two different Erics. And there's one when I've got the Zoloft and I've got the help. And then there's this very anxious, ruminative Eric, which I've made plenty of attempts to go back and figure out what is causing this and go off the SSRIs. And it's like, hey, you know, it can be different this time, especially post-exit. I was like, what is there to be anxious about? My life is great. I got a bunch of money, don't need to work. I don't have kids running around yet. Like, outside my life is perfect. But no, that, that, uh, those mental loops and patterns remained. And so for me, it's been a series of realizing, okay, it's like maybe someday I'll be able to resolve that and don't need the help of the SSRIs. But like, listen, my grandparents on both sides are Holocaust survivors. Like, you know, you know, that, that feeds down generation to generation, like You know, it's, it's part what did I experience from my parents? What did they get from, you know, from their parents? And it's taken me a long time because I'm this guy who feels like I can fix anything, I can do anything, I can accomplish anything. And it's like, this is one thing that's proven to be not necessarily in my control and not for a lack of effort and not for a lack of trying and not for a lack of like giving it my best effort. But really settling to like, okay, this is, is sort of just the way that I'm wired. And, you know, over time I will keep trying to work on it. But, you know, these 18-month cycles of feeling great, taking over the world, and then, you know, going down into a pit of despair, it's like, it's a, it's a tough way to experience life. It's a tough way to show up for others in life. It's a, you know, it's tough to, to have a committed relationship, which, which I've had. And, you know, I'm now married and like, it's, it's tough for that partner. So yeah, even when things were going well with the company, I mean, there was periods where I was like, just, you know, my employees saw what happened to me when I went home. Like, they wouldn't believe it. They wouldn't believe it.
I deeply appreciate you sharing the mental health journey that you've been on because, A, I think it is way more common in entrepreneurship than most of us can appreciate. And B, what you're doing here is normalizing it, right? There is an unfortunate amount of stigma that remains around mental health in our, in our country and especially in entrepreneurship because to be backable, right, you have to be able to beat the world. And, and you were massively successful despite these challenges. And I just want to really honor your commitment to sharing that because I think it's really important for people to hear that you don't have to have it all together in order to make something worthwhile and build something meaningful in life.
Yeah. And even going back to what we were talking about earlier, it's like I think it's so prevalent with entrepreneurs because of the things that drive entrepreneurs, which are on— when you get to the root, it's the feelings of enoughness, the needing to prove yourself, the needing to validate. Like, those are, those are very anxiety-producing things. So I think there is actually a correlation, which it's like the things that are driving entrepreneurs to be entrepreneurs, not all of them, but many are also the things that cause mental health challenges. And so, you know, you and I talk about this all the time, but like, one of the— like, how could I not say that? You asked me a question, like, how can I not just answer you? Like, I've got past this point of, oh, I've got something to prove. What if someone listening to this podcast doesn't like me? What if a CEO that wants to work with me, a software CEO, is listening to this and they're turned off by it? It's like, great. We shouldn't be working together if you can't hear me say something like that and, you know, respect where it's coming from, etc. And so that's one of the coolest things about, you know, the financial independence. And it shouldn't take financial independence to feel that way, but it sure helps. Turns out it sure does help for most people. But it's like, that's the gift now. It's like I can, I can just be myself all the time. And if people like it, Great. If they don't, great.
That's okay.
I'm good.
Yeah. How do you get there? Right. Because. Okay, take us back. You sell your company, massive windfall, and even that, even managing that doesn't come without its challenges. So what were some of the mistakes you made on that path? And then, yeah, walk me through the post-exit mental health piece.
Yeah. So a few questions in there. So let me start with the mental health piece. It's like Classic Eric. What did I do? You know, the next day I, I flew to Nosara in Costa Rica and I spent a month there and just like I said earlier, I swung the pendulum. And during that trip I was like, okay, I'm good. Like, things are good. Let me— I don't, I don't need the meds anymore. And so, you know, within 2 weeks of my exit, I, But I was like, okay, I'm good now. And realized it's not like immediately when you go off of an SSRI that like things fall apart. It's like, you know, maybe in a few weeks or a month, people around you can start to notice it. Then it's maybe 2 or 3 months till you really notice it. And then it's like 6 months until like, it's like, ooh, this is rough. Here I am again. And so even pretty quickly, I was traveling the world and, you know, I took a, I took a real sabbatical. You know, I, I call it the reverse ski bum. You know, I didn't ski bum after college, but I, I ski bummed after Exit and I, you know, traveled and now spend a lot of time in Cape Town, South Africa. But, you know, my mom has this incredible saying and, you know, I don't think it's novel or, and I don't know where she got it from, but it's wherever you go, there you are. And I experienced that, you know, the, these seasons of mental health challenges that, you know, have persisted post-exit. And, you know, what I've learned is if I'm on meds, it's very simple for me. If I'm on Zoloft and I have some semblance of a morning routine, which for me is normally, you know, 10 minutes of meditation using a product like the 5-Minute Journal and then the Productivity Planner to plan my day. And I kind of stick to that. And if I'm exercising regularly and if I'm eating well, and I don't do this much anymore, but if I don't do anything that is a total derailer, like going to music festival or partying or anything like that, like I'm good and I'm consistently good and I'm reliably good. And those are also the things that consistently get me out of the pit of despair. And so honestly, not much has changed. Obviously there's less external stressors. So I maybe have the space to catch it sooner, and I certainly have the space to put these practices into practice cuz I've got no excuse not to. So the thing that, you know, and you and I have worked on a ton is it's also the mindset. Like I put the pressure on, I put the risk on to earn sort of the freedom and not even like the financial freedom right now. I'm talking about like the mental freedom.
Yeah.
To just live this, you know, peaceful, content life. And life is still going to be life. But if I can't maintain my baseline, like I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, it actually takes, you know, it takes extra effort to be at baseline for folks that have mental health challenges. More so than most, like if I can't just maintain that, let alone being above and beyond, what do I do all that work for? What do I take all that risk for? What do I go into all that debt for? What did I make all that sacrifice for? It's like there's a way that I want to feel most days and I have the power and there's no excuse not to. And I know that you push on people who are still running their companies. It's like you don't have to wait till the exit or the financial freedom to incorporate some of these principles. Now, you might not have as much time. There's more stuff that derails because running a company is crazy. You never, you know, you get like a bombshell every 2 weeks that just rearranges your atoms in your brain and you're just like, I don't know if there are atoms in the brain, but I think there are. So I'm not saying that even if anyone's listening to this that like is still running their company, it's not wait until the exit and then do all these things. You can and honestly should do both. And not only that, your company is going to be better for it. And even though you perceive you're taking time away from your company, you're actually compounding the efforts of yourself and every single person on your team. And so it's not just limited to, you know, exited founders and stuff like that.
Yeah, I think that's a, that's a really important point. I appreciate you sharing. My next question in there was managing a financial windfall. How did you do that and what were some of the mistakes you made?
Yeah, I'm glad you asked the second question because I totally forgot what it was.
Here we are.
Here we are. You know, honestly, if I can look back and I have a crystal ball, should have just put it all in the S&P 500 and not lifted a finger.
I'm with you, brother. Now, you and me both.
I'm hopeful that, you know, as all of my illiquid investments and private investments pan out, that maybe I'll actually be ahead of that. But, you know, I chose the path of— I'm a tinkerer. I like to learn. So I chose the path of managing my investments myself. And I guess time will tell whether or not that was a good idea. I put, you know, did a lot of angel investing. I did a lot of fund investing. I enjoyed learning about private credit and learning about real estate and kind of understanding family office style dynamics and asset allocations. And, you know, I probably— mistakes made. It's like, there's plenty of ways to learn with really small checks or with kind of building mock portfolios and seeing how they would do. You know, I kind of learned about the asset classes by participating in them and then sort of figuring out my asset allocation and my risk tolerance and profile and Am I optimizing for absolute returns or am I optimizing for stability? You know, all of that stuff came 2 years later.
Yeah.
After I had, you know, invested, you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars in all of these vehicles. And that's not to say I'm upset with what I did, but I probably could have been smarter about it. And then the other thing is, you know, as anyone who's, who's had an exit, can confirm, I've never heard anyone dispute this. It's like, it's really 6 months until it actually settles in and your brain starts to, you know, especially for folks that didn't grow up with, you know, tons of wealth and riches, it's like, it takes a long time. You've been operating however many 20s, 30s, 40 years, maybe 50s and 60s until you have this windfall. Then you have it and it's like, your brain has to readjust and it takes quite some time. You know, I'd say 6 months is when it starts, but after a year it's like you actually kind of have your, your head around it. And I got that advice and I really appreciated that I got that advice. So I'm, I'm sharing it for anyone that's listening, but it's a, it's a process and having, you know, I've, the reason that we are, we're working together is I really, you know, I've known you for a while now, but I really respected the content that you were putting out for Unbreakable Wealth. And this was, you know, before this podcast existed and it was— you were just getting started. But I was like, man, his messages, I just feel like he's speaking directly to me. And I'm very fortunate and grateful that like I knew you. And so I was in your sphere and so I was seeing it. But the work that you're doing and, you know, in the groups and with private clients, it's like you're speaking right to the exited founders and there's not many people that are doing it with a viewpoint that you have of really taking it below the tactics of wealth, which are important. They're super important.
Sure.
But really going, you know, peeling back the layers of figuring out what are the motivations, what motivated you to generate all this wealth in the first place, are those the same motivations that you want to take forward into this next chapter? Do you want to take the same amount of risk? Because I'll tell you what, if you don't have a plan and you're not talking to people with, with your perspective and mindset, like you're going to revert right back to, to who you were pre-exit. And so, you know, whether it's Unbreakable Wealth and, you know, I know you're an advocate staunch one, but like you're an advocate of wealth, wealth advisors and wealth managers and, you know, having just like you would at a company, like you've got your board, you've got your team of advisors, you've got the people that you go to. Managing the post-exit journey is no different.
Totally, man. And, you know, as I like to say, I love learning the hard way, but I'm trying to quit. So, so the reason I have these viewpoints It's not because I got some download and aha, it's because I earned the wisdom through a lot of blood, sweat and tears and a lot of really catastrophic mistakes. And now I get to share that because, you know, what's the use of wisdom if you're not going to share it with people and try and shortcut them some of the same pain? And so, you know, it's really an honor to be able to talk about these things that bring these conversations to light, because the reality is I was just doing what I thought rich people did. And I think there's such a hero culture around venture capital and angel investing, especially. It's almost like there's an expectation that you're supposed to go redeploy your capital into angel investments after you exit. And I think that's really damaging. And without a really smart, sophisticated plan, like, you're going to head for some icebergs on that path.
Yeah. And it's You know, we, we've spoken on this many times. It's like, I think we both feel like we have the best job in the world. I mean, we both, you know, coincidentally, serendipitously, whatever it is, kind of found similar paths in, in coaching and community and helping. And I know that we both wake up, it's like, when you ask us what lights us up, it's like, it's the time for you. It's mostly with exited founders and high net worth individuals. For me, it's with active, CEOs, but the— this is going to be great and you'll love this. I'm not sure if you've heard me say this before, but when I'm, when I'm talking about Scalebound and people are asking, well, what do I get out of it? I say, well, you know, for most of them, it's their first time building the company. And I say, as I'm sure you've already experienced, there's something called the first-timers tax, and it is hefty. It is a hefty tax that is unavoidable. Unless you have the proper support. And I know that that's exactly, you know, all of— most of your clients have had their exits. And but this second mountain, this what do I do post-exit? What do I do financially independent? Guess what? It's, it's, it's the first time again.
The taxman, the taxman comes calling.
The taxman comes calling. And so I think that's just the coolest thing that we're, we're both getting to do that. And then I just thought about this, but I went on, you know, at some point in my life a few years ago, I, I Googled the top 10 Brené Brown podcasts and there was one that was called FFT and it stands for Fucking First Time. And she— it's a reminder to people that like the first time doing anything is awkward, it's uncomfortable. You make tons and tons of mistakes and you just have to remember like FFT, like she was talking about her pickleball match and she was trying a new, trying a new stroke or something she learned in coaching. And, you know, she's just making a mess of it. And she's like, I got to remind myself, FFT, fucking first time. And especially with these post-exit founders and people who are figuring out how to deploy and continue to deploy their wealth, like, that's not where you want to pay the tax. You know, you really want some good advisors and some thought partners and coaches and folks like you who like have helped dozens and dozens of people with exactly that because you don't want to pay that tax with deploying your capital. I mean, you don't want to pay it building a company, but like you're still going to pay it. But, you know, the, the stakes might even be higher once you've put in your 10 years or however many years to build it. Like it's a you know, you don't, you don't want to wash all that away. It's going back and starting another one.
When it happens, it happens so often. And I think there's really a critical window. You know, if you make $100 million, you can make a lot of mistakes and still be okay. But if you're kind of in this like $5 to $25 million range, which is, which is, you know, where a lot of founders end up if they, if they have a successful company, you can knock yourself out of the game. And that's sort of, you know, what I did. I was, I was in a position where I should have never had to work again. And then all of a sudden found myself going, oh, I don't have access to any of my capital. I'm a multimillionaire on paper, which is cool, but it's not as cool as being able to pay your bills, right?
Yeah. And the investment tracker feels so good. You know, when you start doing these angel investments yourself, you got your investment tracker and, you know, you're probably a little bit ignorant to the risk profile. Of these investments, even though, you know, but like you probably haven't looked at the data so closely and, you know, I'm not going to share the numbers, but, you know, I know we were in the car last night and you, you told me the math of if you had just taken the, the money from the oil and gas exit and put it into the S&P 500, what that was 2019. So 6 years ago, and you told me what that would have added up to. And both of us It's her fault. It's something. It's, it's a painful, it's a painful lesson learned. But also, what a gift. What a gift. Because now, now look, like, you get to spend your day helping people avoid that situation. And you might, you might help hundreds of people or over time thousands of people make better decisions. And like, you know, you might have forgone some wealth for yourself, but maybe you created, you know, hundreds of millions or into the billions of dollars of wealth for other people.
Let's go with that. Definitely billions. Eric, this is, this is so cool, man. I appreciate you sharing your journey so vulnerably and walking us through what got you here and what made you who you are today, because how you're showing up in the world is just so impressive and you're helping a lot of people. Tell me a little bit about Scalebound, who you help, what you do, and where people can find you.
Yeah. So Scalebound is a coaching company primarily for B2B software CEOs with a SaaS business model. And we start— we've got some group coaching offerings for earlier stage CEOs starting as early as $100K in annual recurring revenue or ARR. And then my private clients go up to, you know, $60, $70, $80 million. We work with bootstrap and venture-backed founders. And you know what, what we do and what I do is exactly what we talked about. It's like, I want these CEOs to win. I want them to avoid the painful lessons that can be avoided. I want to ride shotgun with them and be a part of their journey and just help do everything I can to support them getting to achieve what you and I have both been like super fortunate to have in our lives, which is freedom and ability to design our lives and to create and give back to the world and in an even more direct way than, than building a company does. So it's a one-stop shop for a B2B software CEO that wants to not focus only on, you know, of course, the business and models and frameworks and tactics and hiring and firing and everything that goes in building a B2B software company, but also into the mindset, because that is— you talk about all the time, that's maybe even more than half the battle is how you show up. And I have a lot of experience helping CEOs become the best version of themselves in conjunction with— I know this is an overstatement, but like, it's rare to come across a question or situation that I haven't either experienced firsthand or through one of my 50 or 60 investments or through the many dozens of CEOs that I coach. So it's awesome to get to pair the like You've got to show up as the best human being to be the best CEO. And I can help you with anything that's going on in your business and add a layer of accountability and partnership that is a little bit different than your co-founders or your board members or your advisors or anyone that's like more directly involved in the business. So it's, it's the best job in the world. And every, every minute spent with helping a CEO is like a great minute spent on this planet.
Well, you're doing an amazing job and putting great work into the world. And I had the privilege of speaking to your group this morning and that's fun. Got some really, really special folks in there doing great work. So really cool to, to have a, a front row seat to your journey. And, and where can people find you if they want to get in touch, learn more about Scalebound?
Yeah, definitely find me on LinkedIn. My name is Eric Spett. You'll see it in the show notes in the description. It'll be there. And our website is scalebound.com, S-C-A-L-E-B-O-U-N-D.com.
Awesome, man. Well, thanks for joining. Thanks for being here. And yeah, thanks for having me be part of the ride.
Yeah, man, I appreciate you so much.
Cheers, brother.
Cheers.
