Why Marc Andreessen is Wrong About Introspection

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Inner Circle with my friend Mike Brown, myself, Kevin Dahlstrom. The idea behind this podcast is we tackle subjects and have conversations that we would have anyway, because we're both part of each other's inner circle. We share those with the world in the hope that you hear one thing that maybe makes you think a little bit differently. And today is yet another example of a literal topic. That we started having a discussion about offline and we're like, we should just, you know, record a podcast episode. I'm gonna tee it off, Mike, by reading something that I posted a few days ago. You know, on the plat— on X, which is where we spend a decent bit of time, there's always like the topic du jour. And one of the topics that came up a few days ago was this idea of like th— talk therapy, like what are the merits of it? And I happen to have a, I'm not, I try not to post hot takes, but I did post a hot take on this one. And, and I, here's what I said. I said, I've never once met someone who's been in therapy for years and thought they really have their stuff together. It's usually the opposite. Same for enlightened spiritual chasers. But I've met many people who've turned their lives around by becoming supremely fit. And I will say a few days later, I still stand by the words of my my post because that has been my experience, but I'm guessing there's nuance to the subject. What do you think, Mike?

Yeah. I mean, and I think it's worth even backing up further is that this whole topic du jour was kicked off by Mark Andreessen saying that he's not introspective and that introspection was, was invented in Vienna in the 1910s, which is, which is crazy, wildly inaccurate. Uh, I think the Buddha and Marcus Aurelius and, and several other folks who were pretty introspective might agree. He was only off by a couple millennia. So, uh, this is not a new phenomenon. And, um, my take is that introspection is the single most important quality to a life well-lived. And therapy by, by extension is a form of introspection. It's an introspection with a qualified licensed person who's, who's helping you do that introspection. Um, and look, Therapy is like exercise, is what I— was my point, is that like, yes, a brisk walk 3 times a week is not going to be the thing that makes someone supremely fit, just like vanilla talk therapy may not be. But almost no qualified, like, you know, up-to-date practitioners are doing vanilla talk therapy. There's all kinds of modern methods that people are using. And My point was, I think this is actually a dangerous position to take, um, which is sort of the idea that therapy doesn't work. Therapy is wildly effective for a lot of people, and it's not effective for everyone if they're not committed to the process or they're, they don't have the right therapist. So there is nuance.

One thing we definitely agree on is introspection is, as you said, the key to a life well lived. And I, yeah. Like you disagree strongly with Andreesen's take, and he doubled down on it and tripled down on it in the days that followed. And, uh, I think you're right also that therapy is one form of introspection. It's a relatively— that is a relatively new invention. Um, and one would think that, you know, it is a valid science and it has evolved, and lots of people undoubtedly get help from it. I think there are other forms of introspection. I always joke that, you know, I'd never done therapy, but I've done 20,000 hours of processing while I'm out hiking and walking. Um, I got there the hard way, like I do everything. But I think the key here for me is like the, um, what's the saying? Like it's 2% inspiration, 90% perspiration.

Yeah.

And I think where people get— what my observation, and I'm, I'm— you're much more of an expert on this topic than I am, but my observation is the people I was talking about, they, um, treat therapy as the end, not the means to the end. And it almost becomes like a way— I, I've almost, I've said before, it almost even becomes like a narcissistic endeavor. Um, some of the people I know who've been in therapy for 10, 20 years, they love their therapy, but they're in the same exact spot they were before. And I think it's because they don't treat it as the 2% versus 98%. Like, I think talk therapy with a great therapist is a great way to get, um, the insights you need and the tools you need. But guess what? Then you got to go do the work.

You've got to do the action and the integration, right? And so, uh, what I teach my clients is a framework called the, uh, the AI loop, which is awareness, insight, action, integration. Awareness is, okay, I'm having an outsized reaction to this situation. Insight is what I think you're touching on here that people get out of therapy is like, where did this come from? When maybe it came from a childhood experience that now imprinted upon me and I'm acting this way. But action is the place where people get stuck. And, and you're right, people love mining for insight because it feels like you're doing something. But the, the insight portion should be the minimum effective dose, right? I don't need to mine every childhood memory to understand why I operate the way I operate. I need enough to build the pattern recognition and go, okay, I see where this comes from. Now how do I start to repattern this? And first, it's conscious. That's where action comes in, a conscious repatterning. Okay, I'm catching myself in the moment. I'm engaging in a process to repattern my belief. And then integration is where that starts to become subconscious or second nature. We've run that loop enough times that now we've created a new way of being. And you're right. And this is why I love coaching over therapy, right? Like therapists are bound by specific guidelines, right? But like, as a coach, I— what I do can look like a form of therapy, but I also just get to call people on their bullshit and be like, hey, stop that. Like, yeah, I'm sorry that your mom was mean to you, but like, you can't treat your wife that way.

To go back to the original Andreesen post, uh, about introspection, and then Elon actually retweeted or reposted it and said, yes, you're forming like neurological ruts, and There is some truth to that. If you dwell too much on the past, I think it can reach a point that it becomes harmful. There's a saying in football, a good cornerback has a short memory because if you get burned on a passing route and you're just thinking about that constantly, you're gonna get burned again. You gotta forget about it and move. So I think there is something to this idea of moving on, but surely there are things we can learn from the past that can inform our future.

And this is it, right? Like, let me excavate enough to understand why I'm operating the way I'm operating, right? Look, most of us operate like we walk through life asleep, operating totally unconsciously. We react a certain way and we say, well, that's just how I'm wired. Well, no, it's not how you were wired. It's how, you know, your brain is doing pattern matching. Something happened to you as a kid. Now you react this way, but you can change it. It turns out you can just actually understand where it came from and start to re-pattern your brain. And the vast majority of people would be served, I think, to do a little more digging than they do. But here's, it's wildly uncomfortable. Like it's, it's scary to have to dig into the things that hurt us. And I think that's, that's really where, you know, some of this comes from and from a person like Andreessen or Elon, you know, we're talking about greatness, right? With the great men of history weren't introspective. Well, for me. I wanna start by defining great, right? And the example I use is J. Paul Getty, you know, one of the most rich men in history, but his grandson was kidnapped and he wouldn't pay the ransom until he had it. He had his ear cut off. Like, is that a great man? Like, I don't think so. No.

I mean, so many of these discussions come back to like, what's the definition of success? And I, I say often that, um, Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, has literally said that his life is a tortured existence.

Yeah.

So to me, that's not success. Um, and, and the truth is, like, I was thinking about it, an intelligent person cannot, um, help but introspect. We just do that. It's human nature. You're going to. And so the question becomes, how do you get the most out of that introspection? I think I, I will concede, like, a really good therapist can help, or a coach. I will say, I think therapists are like real estate agents, like 1% of them are amazing, the other 99% are not so much. Um, so, you know, um, I think long walks with friends, I think physical effort, I think all these things, kind of reading, traveling the world, these are the things that have helped me process over the years. And I think it's probably fair to say it's, it's more like an, an, an and, not an either-or type scenario.

And I also think a big part is how are you meeting the process? How are you finding your therapist? So, I'll, you know, I've had various therapists over the years. I am looking for someone that is absolutely world-class at their craft. So, they're usually recommended by a friend, they're vetted through my network. Like, I'm finding people at the absolute top of their game. And then, I'm going to them with a specific outcome in mind, right? Like, let's say it's procrastination. Okay. I mean, this is something that I've struggled with my whole life. I'm terrible at admin. I would rather jump off a bridge than have to call the health insurance company to process a claim like that. And this has really been sort of crippling throughout my life. And so I'm going to approach the therapist with this specific outcome in mind and go like, hey, I really want to dive into this. Now, what happens is we start diving in and find where these beliefs formed. And this is the mark of a great therapist is there might be a whole iceberg that we're uncovering, right? Like the Titanic, there might be a huge deeply ingrained pattern that is manifesting as procrastination, but it actually affects all of this other stuff. That's what a great therapist does. But sometimes, there is a minimum effective dose where you could go for 6 sessions and clear something. And again, this is depending on the method that they're using, right? And there's some really effective stuff. So somatic experiencing therapy, you know, is locating these things in your body. Like, there is some, some really cool modern technology, which is what I would say these techniques are, that, you know, are extremely helpful. But you have to do the work, as you said.

I think that's my takeaway is like, you know, maybe 2% is too small, but 10% is like getting the insights, uh, adopting the technology as you refer to it. I think it's a good word for it. And then the 90% is doing the work. I, I will say, I think to me, I guess the red flag that I see a lot is when, um, in fact, um, there's a woman, Abigail Shrier, who's a, is a New York Times reporter.

Mm-hmm.

Wrote the book, I think it's called Bad Therapy or something. Um, and, and one thing she, my wife read it and she paraphrased it for me, but she was, my wife was saying that She talks a lot about like these labels we attach to things have meaning and they can be harmful, especially with kids. And what happens is when the therapy itself becomes the identity, that's a huge problem. And that would suggest that you're getting the 90/10 flip the wrong way.

Yeah. And, and identity is a great subject to bring up, like, like a, um, a good therapy process should actually help you unwind identities that you've built that aren't serving you, right? And if in, in service of that goal, you're, you're just rebuilding a new identity, like, that's equally problematic. I mean, the, the process of self-actualization and eventually self-transcendence is the process of shedding identities and going, you know, we've talked about supercars on this show. I used to be the supercar guy, and then, you know, was liberated from that identity by just letting go and saying, I don't have to be the supercar guy anymore.

Right.

And it took understanding why I formed that identity in the first place. And then I was able to let it go. And that is like what an effective therapeutic process might look like. But if I, you know, if I took on a new identity as the guy who hates cars and, you know, it's equally as harmful.

Is it fair to say, Mike, that a good therapist or a good coach will force you to do the work? Because I think about like, is it a red flag if you go to therapy, let's say once a week, and now you're 6 months in and yeah, maybe it feels good, you're making some progress, but I guess it's not like, how do you know if it's working or not, I guess is maybe the question. And, and I, I almost wonder if it's like part of the responsibility of being a good therapist or coach to say, look, dude, You just got to do the work. Like, I can, I can provide insight, I can coach you, but you got to do the work.

Yeah. Here's what I'll do. I'm not going to speak from a therapist's perspective because I'm not one. I've worked with some great ones. I've worked with some not great ones, but I am a coach. And so here's how I approach that with my clients is number one, the person has to be willing and committed to the process. Like, I'm not going to do the work for you. I have no interest in, you know, dragging someone to the water, right? I will show you the process. I will be there with you. I'll hold the space for you to face the really hard stuff. But I have had conversations with clients of like, hey, what are we doing here? Like, we're 6 sessions in and you're wanting to meander around the surface and you're dodging my hard-hitting questions. What is your ideal outcome here? Like, what are we actually doing? And often that will shake something loose. But I've also terminated engagements with clients, you know, and I haven't had a client like this in a long time. But at the beginning of my career, 4 or 5 5 years ago, you know, there were folks who, who just weren't really interested in doing the actual deep work and the hard work that was required. And we just go, hey man, you don't have to do this, right? I assume that you're here because you want a better outcome for your life. But if you're not willing to do the work, like, I'm not going to waste either of our time.

Yeah. Well, you know, we were joking before we hit the record button about how the work you do is hard to describe and frankly hard to sell because It's, it's a combination of a bunch of things and the word coaching, life coaching in particular, has some like stigma around it. Yeah. And, and frankly, like I just have, having been tried therapy 2 or 3 times, this is gonna sound really blunt and unfair. Sorry. But, um, I, I sort, I end up feeling most of the time like they're just kind of dumbasses. Like they're, they're not challenging me on an intellectual level. They're not holding me accountable. And they're not capable of doing that. And, and then, but, but then I hear, I'm very well aware of the major transformations that you, you've seen in your customer, your clients. We just talked about one before we started recording.

Yeah.

And, um, so I guess what's someone to do if they've got like, I'm struggling in life, maybe it's something specific, maybe I don't even know exactly what it is. Like, where do I even start?

This is a really great question. And I sort of agree with you. I don't want to blanket label most therapists as dumbasses, but here's what I'll say is you have to have someone that can match your processing speed and intellectually challenge you and push you, right? And essentially be able to call you on your bullshit. And by the way, like, I am an extraordinarily effective communicator. So if I went into therapy and didn't really want to get into the work, I could wow most therapists with all of the jargon and they'd be super impressed, but I wouldn't actually be doing anything, right? And it wasn't until I met my first coach who eventually became my mentor, Philip McKernan. He asked questions that pierced my soul and I couldn't wriggle out of it. I was like, oh, okay, this is what we're doing here. And it totally changed my life. So, finding a match is really important. And finding a match for you personally and your personality, like, like vibe check, like, do I actually want to spend time with this person? You know, do I feel comfortable with them? Can they deliver the result? And coaching, especially more so than therapy, because therapy has a methodology, and coaching is, has the person done the thing that I want to do? Here's what I use. I help people, you know, redesign their entire life from first principles and create that meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. And that's the thing that I've spent 10,000+ hours on in the last 10 years doing for myself. I've gone deep into the depths of therapy, coaching, psychedelic therapy, meditation, life design, finance. I've done all of the things. And so, essentially, my body of work is my life. And by the way, that doesn't mean my life's free of problems, right? It doesn't mean that there's no friction in my life, but You know, I've created what I believe is an extraordinary life for myself. All right.

I got chills from that last one. So I'm gonna, I always try to like, for myself, every time we record an episode, I always like, I'm a simpleton. So like, what's the one takeaway? And I think you just nailed it, which is like, if you're gonna get help and we all need help, I think we can all agree on that. You can label it however you want. So I have a problem with the talk therapy label, but that's my issue. But, but you hit 3 things. So number 1, they have to be your intellectual equal, right? So that you can spar with them, cuz that's a lot of what you're doing.

Yep.

Number 2, there has to be a personality match because like I always say about rock climbing, like you're gonna spend a lot of time with that person. It's pretty important that you actually just kind of like them at a, at a human level. That's number 2. And number 3, which is something I write about all the time, have they effing done it? Like examine their life. Do they have a great life? And that, that's sort of a qualification for someone being part of at least my inner circle anyway. Like, I know you well enough now that is Mike Brown's, you know, life without problems. Of course not. But you've got things pretty darn dialed at the age of, I don't know, you're 46, 47. And I like to think I do too. And it's, I've gotten there the hard way. And so, you know, I always say, you know, emulate someone who is what you want to be. And not just in one area of their life, but the totality of their life.

Here's, I think, what— and I'm saying this for the first time out loud, but, you know, I like sort of the way I was wired. Like, I am compelled to eliminate dissonance and take things to the far-reaching endpoint of rigorous logic. Not everybody's wired that way, right? And so what people who work with me as clients get to benefit from is like my natural wiring. I applied that to personal development. Like I took all of the modalities to way beyond what most people would do, but that allows me to bring that knowledge back and help transfer it to someone else and go, hey, this is bullshit. This works. Here's all the things I did. I don't know what the right answers are for you, but I have a lot of experience doing this thing for myself. All right.

Well, I want to wrap this up.

Yeah.

Because I want to keep them to 20 minutes, but I'm going to say two words as a seed for a future episode that are very related to this, and we should absolutely schedule this, which I want to talk about in the future, the role of plant medicine in all this. Oh, a lot of buzz about plant medicine, psychedelics, whatever you want to call it. But, um, in my limited experience, it's had a huge impact on my ability to introspect, and I know yours as well. So we'll save that for later.

Cliffhanger.

Here we go. Cliffhanger, baby. All right, dude. Awesome as always.