Why Success Alone Will Never Be Enough | Rob Sirstins

I had a gun to my head and everything made sense. It's just like, I don't belong. I feel the depression and the sadness and the darkness. It's just not in your head. It permeates in your bones, in your tendons, in everything. Summer of 2017, where I almost took my own life. Rob Stinnes is a former Division I athlete and the author of Ego of the Warrior. For nearly a decade, he's worked as an empowerment coach, guiding people to heal, find purpose, and create true freedom in their lives. Growing up in Salt Lake and being adopted into Mormonism was total fuckery. It got to the point where it's just like I either pull the trigger or else if I set this gun down, I have to live with purpose.

After you put the gun down, how do you start to uncover purpose?

Through my work and my healing, I'm like, okay, there is a purpose here. And I just slowly started finding it and then things started opening up. I am very good at finding the North Star and helping people get there. I always go over the 4 pillars. Is— first and foremost. Second, can you be— and the third is something all of us work on is— and so if we apply those 3, then that takes us to the fourth one is—

I think that's about as good a definition as I've ever heard. Welcome to Money Stories, where we have conversations about money, meaning, and what makes a truly rich life. Today I am joined by my dear friend Rob Searson, former D1 athlete, found his calling as an empowerment coach, author of Ego of the Warrior, and just a beautiful human, someone I deeply respect. Rob, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. Grateful to be here.

Yeah, well, let's, let's dive right in from the beginning. How did you grow up with money and how did that drive you to become successful?

I can't say I grew up with money, which is interesting. My life started in kind of chaos. I was born to about a 16, 17-year-old little girl. And I don't know if she was homeless and lived in a shack. And I had a 4-year-old sister already at the time when I was born. And luckily I was able to be adopted with my sister. And so I have reference points. And as she has done her healing, she's been able to recollect a lot of memories. And, you know, she suffered a lot of abuse growing up with our biological mother. And because of that, you know, the nervous system records all that as well as a baby. Luckily enough, 3 months later, we got adopted to a beautiful family in in Salt Lake City, Utah. I was born in Phoenix. My sister was born in Spokane, Washington. And so my family, my parents that raised me are my parents to this day, right? And unfortunately, you know, it came with its troubles. I grew up in Salt Lake East Side where no one else looked like me at all. And because of that, you know, I suffered a lot of bullying, a lot of racism. And even though my family and parents love me dearly, we suffered financially a lot. And I remember we moved every year and a half to 2 years. I learned nothing but scarcity. And if you don't have it, you just put it on credit cards to survive. And so that's how my brain started recording not only survival, but not really being grounded in one place at a time.

And what did that leave you with as you were growing up? What beliefs or stories did you have about money, about belonging?

For me, money was always hard. You had to work very, very hard just to break even. It never came easy. And there would be birthdays where there wasn't anything. There would be, we got evicted my sophomore year. In high school right before Christmas, the week of Christmas. And I remember it was snowing, it was freezing, and I had to call up all my high school buddies to help throw all our stuff in the truck, the moving truck, or else we were gonna lose everything that we didn't have. And so for me, it took a long, long time to understand how money actually works energetically. And finding a place where it can actually flow when you find your path. Because for me, it was just like, well, my dad did sales, my brother did sales, so I should do sales. And Mike, you know me very well. I am not a salesman at all. Right? But I tried that. Like, I got my college degree after playing football at the University of Utah. And I'm like, yeah, this should come easy. And all my friends and teammates, right? Like, if they didn't go in the pros, they were in like medical device sales or pharmaceuticals, and they were just making money hand over fist. Like, oh yeah, I'm going to do that too. I can get hired for my life, right? And it messed with me a lot. So I, I went from sale gig for 2 years. It's like same way I moved growing up as a kid. I went from job to job. And what I realized is like how much I hated it. I hated it. It was very inauthentic to me and I can be charming when it's time to be charming, you know, when I like with the girls growing up and stuff like that. But when it comes to like being charming with someone else that I just want you to buy from me to make money, didn't feel true to me, you know. And now I can look back and reflect at that. And so I didn't do well in some jobs. I got fired from, let go. Other jobs I tried to like make a jump higher and just like nothing really panned out. Right? Until I was actually forced where for a good 2-year period, I'm like, I couldn't get back in the job cycle at all. I had a degree, had 10-year resume, and I had to resort to personal training just to make ends meet. Right? That was really, really tough. And as I did that, I was in the darkest time of my life. I had to move back in, in my parents' basement apartment at 35, figure things out. And then all of a sudden, like through my work and my healing, I'm like, okay, there is a purpose here. And I just slowly started finding it. And then things started opening up. I'm like, oh, this makes more sense. And I've been doing it for, it'll be 9 years coaching next month.

It's amazing. And I've had a front row seat to a lot of that evolution. And you approach the work with a bravery that is, it's rare and it's beautiful. And it's been an honor for me to watch. But before we get to the healing, I'd like to back up and, you know, you've already touched on some of the hardship that you went through. But you found solace in athletics. Talk to me about that journey.

You know, that is the one place where I belonged. I could walk onto a court, I could walk onto a field and be the best out there every single time and be better than guys a couple years older than me. And I took pride in that. And I knew that immediately. And I fell in love with the game of football and later on the game of rugby. And I was never a great rugby player. And I still run around with my team once a week during the spring and summer. They just knew to give me the ball and I would score. As far as rucking and tackling, I was terrible. I'm just like, I'm a running back playing rugby. And they all knew that and they took care of me in that way. And I did really well. I even got invited to play with the USA Eagles out of high school. And I decided to take on and go to the University of Utah for football, 'cause it had to be one or the other. I love sports. It was a place where I didn't feel less than. I didn't feel the racial prejudice that I did outside of sports because if anything, I was supreme when I was there. And that felt really good. Right. But it was funny. I was even talking to my partner, Brandi, about this the other day. It's just like I would on one day, you know, during the season of football, my bullies would become my best friends. And then after the season was over, they were— they'd be back to being my bullies. And so it was an interesting thing to look at. And it caused a lot of confusion, confusion of how I belonged. And if I could not show value outside of the sports realm, there was a lot of confusion. And this is stuff I'm still working through today. Right? Especially with everything going on in the world. Right? It's just like, where is this place where I can find safety? And bring value and be seen as equal.

Yeah, and I think that it's worth digging into those feelings, that lack of belonging, because I think racism is such a charged topic nowadays. And fundamentally, it comes from not being able to put ourselves in that person's shoes. So here you are being raised by a white family, in a predominantly white area. And even within those dynamics, there's still a distinct undercurrent that you're not one of us. Can you just dig into that for me so we can really get a sense of what that might feel like?

Growing up in Salt Lake and being adopted into Mormonism was total fuckery because you're being taught things that Blacks are less than. You're being taught that Blacks are stained with the sin of Cain murdering Abel, like all these different things. And I could go deep in the doctrine, but the point of the matter is, so already I had this place where I'm just like, I don't know where I fit in. I'm trying to believe this thing that I'm being taught, and I'm still being told and cemented in that I was bad before this. Life existence, right? And being told this all the time, and being treated and dealt with the most racism and bullying from people within the church. So nothing ever really computed. It never made sense. It just caused more confusion. And unfortunately, it caused a lot of self-hate within me. Right? And I started creating the stories. Yeah, I'm less than, I'm not good enough, which did play into my money. Right? I'm like, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy enough. God sees me as less than. And so I'll never be able to obtain the success of which I dream. And so for me, it's just like, it's football or nothing. It's football or nothing. And I did really well in high school. I was the number 2 running back behind, I believe it was Fahutahi, who went on to BYU and then Minnesota Vikings, right? And I got a full ride scholarship, University of Utah. And going in that freshman year, I was driving home at 2 o'clock at night from my best friend's house, and I got T-boned at an intersection by a police officer going to assist another police officer at a robbery. He T-boned me at 80 miles an hour. Blew out my back. If it was 6 more inches to the left, I would've died. For some reason, I was able to crawl out and, you know, but what it caused is me to be that player that went from being able to play through hurt and injury to being injured all the time. Right? If I stepped the wrong way, if I slept the wrong way, I couldn't walk, I couldn't run. And so I dealt with that the first couple of years at the University of Utah until reluctantly I had to walk away. I'm like, I just can't do this anymore. And if I knew how to train better rather than having, you know, our strength coaches just put all the weight on for squats and cleans and everyone's blowing out their back or something like that to the way I know how to train now would have been a different story. Right. And so that, yeah, it just continued on the confusion. Like, okay, now that's not working. Now football's off the table. Now what? And then I went into like 10, 15 years of just like jumping around the workforce, Salesforce, trying to find something that matched and nothing did.

Yeah. I mean, what I'm hearing is the really the devastation of the one place you could find value repeatedly.

Right.

Being taken away.

Right.

What is the headspace like going through that?

Well, for me, it led to the summer of 2017 where I almost took my own life. Right, I had a gun to my head and everything made sense. It's just like, I don't belong. I feel the depression and the sadness and the darkness. Is just not in your head. It permeates in your bones, in your tendons, in everything. You can't sleep. You're so exhausted all the time. Because it's just like, nothing makes sense. Right? And it got to the point where it's just like, I either pull the trigger, or else if I set this gun down, I have to live with purpose. I have to find a modality of healing outside of religion. That actually caters to me and what I'm needing. Right? And I don't know why I didn't do it. Like, I still look back, having the gun to my head, to the temple, finger on the trigger, and I just set it down. I'm just like, okay, let's rethink this. And I remember driving away home because I was in a parking lot that I go to to overlook the Salt Lake Valley. And I remember driving home, it's just like, all right, Rob, like, this isn't something we're going to go back and forth with. Like, you put the gun down, you put the gun down forever. And so I called up my best friend the following day. He had no idea. No one had any idea where I was. Like, they knew I was having a hard time, money was struggling. They had no idea where I was. And we went to lunch. He, he was, he was very upset, you know, as he should be. He pulled up his car next to mine. I gave him my gun and I haven't seen it since. Right. And so it was more of the process of like, okay, if I put the gun down, I'm putting the gun down forever. And then it's just like, okay, let's find out what works. And then that led to plant medicine, that led to healing, that led to different communities, right, of people that I never thought I was going to be friends with. Like, who would have known, like, you and I would have connected in such a brotherly level, right? Which I'm so grateful for, you know. And so that's kind of the headspace that it took me to.

Wow, well, thanks for sharing with that level of vulnerability. I know it's not easy to talk about, but I also just wanna recognize and honor your bravery because I think it's easy to take these concepts as abstract.

Mm-hmm.

And hearing the real level of damage. And what strikes me is that, you know, it's double, it's compounded for you because at least, you know, a Black man raised with a Black family has his community, right? You didn't even have that.

Nope. And that was, you know, and that's something I'm still working on, um, with my own therapist. We were talking about that the other day. It's just like I had no point of reference or safety, even though my dad was the safest man I know to this day. Like, if he found out I was being bullied or anything, he'd be knocking down doors. Right? He didn't care. He'd be at the school. He'd be, you know, but at the same time, I needed more than anything a man of color to be like, hey, I got you. This is what I see. Like, and he couldn't do that, right? He could protect me. He could love me. But not having a community to fall back on was really hard. And here's the greater fuckery of it all. When I signed my scholarship at University of Utah, I was so excited because I'm like, oh, I'm finally gonna be around other men of color. And I couldn't wait. And I remember the first, like, athlete party I went to. Those dudes wanted nothing to do with me. I was an alien. I was an alien. I was, I was a white dude in a Black dude's body, right? I wasn't from the inner city. I didn't speak like them. I didn't dress like them. I didn't understand the culture other than what I saw on TV. You know, and so I'm just like, great, more fuckery. I don't believe— I don't even belong there. Right. And over time that changed and shifted as they saw me on the field. And as we got to know each other, you know, they still clowned me a lot and that's fine. And they still do to this day, like someone, which is great. It's fine. Right. But it's still that place of like, I am an alien. Right. There's these parts where it's just like, where do I find the place and the footing that I need to be like, ah, I do belong here.

And I'm just, I'm struck by the sheer sense of loneliness. And after you put the gun down, how do you start to uncover purpose? You knew you needed something outside of yourself to connect to.

You know, it was crazy how it happened because, you know, as I was personal training, I created, I just had this idea. I'm like, I'm going to create And I'm not a creator at all, right? That's not— but I put together and I built this handheld vibrating muscle roller for the smaller extremities of your body, like your forearms and things that you can't get to. Like now you have the, the, the guns that do massage guns that do. But before those came out, it was really cool. And I called it Vibral and I called up one of my buddies and I'm like, hey, do you want to help me invest in this and back me on this? And because he was a venture capitalist, he did very well. And I met with him. He's like, yeah, this is a great idea. He's like, let's put it together. I'll throw some money at it. You put some money in it. And I put like just maxed out all my credit cards. And he's like, let's put on Kickstarter and see how it goes. I'm like, great. We funded within 2 weeks, right? We funded like $55,000 within 2 weeks. I think our goal was like $30,000, just proof of concept. As soon as we funded, he emptied out the account and said, peace out. And so I couldn't deliver on anything. I didn't have the money. And so for the next year, I was running around trying, you know, to meet with different people. So like even sports teams and teammates and like everyone's like, this is a great concept. And where'd your partner go? And explaining that, like no one wanted to touch it till eventually I just had to let it go. Right. The point I'm making is the golden nugget. Or the collateral beauty I got out of that is he's the one that introduced me into plant medicine. He's the one that— before, I didn't know anything about it. I, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I didn't do anything before that. And that is what shifted significantly my trajectory of healing, is finding plant medicine, because then it eventually brought me into the community and the friends that I have now, right? And Once I did that and finding safety and finding, oh, other people have similar or different stories. Other people have dealt with suicidal ideation. Other people have dealt with bullying. Other people have dealt, like, with far worse things that I could ever think of. And just seeing and be able to hear other people's stories was actually very healing for me. Right? And then it took off and, you know, here we are.

Yeah, I mean, the, the, the journey from pure, utter aloneness to community after not fitting in your whole life.

Right.

How profoundly healing was that for you?

It was great. And it still is. It's something I think about often. Right. And I have a lot of gratitude for it because, and I know a lot of people go through this, it's just like, I'm on a fucking island by myself. Right? And no one sees me. No one will understand me, especially with the men's epidemic of suicide. And that's something I really try to convey through my coaching. It's like, you don't have to be on an island if you don't want to. There's other, there's other people that can see and hear you and empathize with where you're at. Right? But because of our ego, and I was one of those men as well, we feel like we just got to sit on that island and suffer until we can't suffer anymore.

I'd love for you to dig in because I've heard you speak on this before, but how, how were you reinforcing that story of aloneness?

How was I?

Yeah.

I think I was reinforcing it because when you get in that place, you can't see any other way out as much as you want to. Right. And you even hear like, and it's very oversaturated with men and women on social media. It's just like, well, just be vulnerable. Just be vulnerable. Not everyone deserves my vulnerability. Not everyone can hold my vulnerability. Right? And that's something I've had to learn over and over. But the thing for me is identifying the areas that I was most afraid to do. Right? And if I had fear within my body, with a possibility of something helping me, I'm like, let's do it. It's either that or the other way, and the other way there's no coming back from, right? And there's a difference for me of not being called to do something and feeling fear. And fear is usually always the door to step through.

That's so beautifully said. So you step into plant medicine, you start to find community, you start your path of healing. Can you take us through some of the patterns and beliefs that you started to unwind on that journey?

Well, the first one is definitely loneliness. Like I'm an alone on an island. The second one is, one of the biggest ones is obviously like the victim, right? And placing blame. And for me, it's something I still unwind to this day. Because we hear it all the time, like, you are not responsible for what happened to you, but you are responsible for your healing. That sounds great. It sounds great. But when you're viscerally holding so much pain and trauma and confusion, and the world is still amplifying that pain that you see day to day, there is a place where it's just like, okay, like, I can take accountability. For what's mine. And there's still all this negative energy that I'm seeing and that I'm feeling going on in my world. Right. And so that was the other thing. The next, the next one, which I believe everyone, it's just not men, but the ability to ask for help. I am not good right now. I actually need some support. Right. That is a superpower that takes, it's like a new muscle you got to build. Right. It's just like, okay. I've tried this over and over to self-process. It's not working. What am I missing? Right? And I have luckily created a lot of beautiful people around me that can be like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Great. Awesome. Right? And so when you ask for help, because you can't see what you can't see, which is obviously why we call them blind spots, you know? And so those are probably the top 3 things right now that have helped the most.

And you step in this community, you start your healing, but the money stuff is still there.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you start to uncover purpose and re-pattern that relationship with money?

For me, it was a slow, slow evolution of re-identifying my value outside of football. And once I saw that, hey, I'm actually very good at this thing over here. And then over years and time, because the first couple of years it's just like, I'll take anyone that wants to work with me, right? And gets you into trouble because you're taking in people that are unsafe, that are way above my pay grade, which, you know, you know. And then, but what I realized is the more you align with yourself, the more you call in people that are more aligned with you. Like, they're exactly formatted in a way for what I can coach and teach, right? And they're open to it, right? And now, you know, 9 years later, my clientele, it's just like people I love. It's like we show up, we go to work, there's no bullshit. And it's just like, that's, that's purpose for me, right? And seeing people hit all these different metrics day in and day out. And it's just like, they're just like, thank you, Rob, so much. I'm like, I didn't do anything. I pointed, you chose to go there. That's all you. And that's what I love.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And I've watched you do it for so many people, but how did you get started? Like, how did you even step into coaching?

Yeah, that's a great question. So when I was personal training, trying to figure out what I was going to do, it was like simultaneously. Within one week, and I worked, and I was personal training at two different gyms. I think five different clients said, Rob, you should really think about life coaching. I'm like, that just sounds stupid. I'm like, life coach sounds stupid. Like, I hated all of it. And a couple of them, like, pulled me to the side, like, Rob, like, not only have you helped me physically, but you've helped me in a way mentally and emotionally in a way that I've never been helped before. I didn't even realize I was doing it right. And so it's just like, okay, so I thought about it. I knew I hated personal training. It's not what I wanted to do. It was just to get, get by. So I actually transferred a few of my clients into life coaching clients, kind of as guinea pigs, right? And then slowly it just evolved from there.

What was, you know, because I, I went through the same thing. I mean, life coaching is Is a total dirty word. I mean, 'cause there's a lot of charlatans out there, right?

Yeah, tons.

What were the conversations you were having with these personal training clients that led them to ask for your help?

What I realize is when you're such in an intimate space, whether it's personal training, you know, Brandy works with in the beauty, people just feel safe. And so they open up immediately, right? And they just want to share with you because they're already being vulnerable doing what they're doing. Like when I'm physically pushing them with their body, right? And the feedback I got is just, you're helping me in so many more ways than one. And that's eventually how it evolved into. Yeah.

So people would just open up. And because you were on your own healing journey, you knew how to help them navigate that a little bit.

But that's something I've always been very good at. It's not something I just picked up. Like, I remember talking to bosses when I was in corporate America and other people, and I automatically— people just always had to open up to me in that way. And I've always been able to support them and usually see the thing immediately. Right. And even with my friendships growing up, like, and family is like, okay, I need to go to Rob, right? And one thing that was interesting, Oprah Winfrey said something that hit me years ago as I was starting this journey. And she was talking about someone asked about purpose and making money. And she talked about pay attention to something you're really good at already. Right? And I know not everybody can identify that immediately. But for me, it was just like, yeah, that's what I'm really good at. You know, so I didn't go on, like I looked on like, do I need to get certified? Like, do I need to go to Tony Robbins? And then I looked at Tony Robbins. I'm like, nope, not doing that. And, you know, so I looked at other things and I'm just like, no, I'm just going to create this. And I'm going to let my intuition take me and see what I'm good at and also be very aware and accountable of where I'm not. Right? Like, hey, that's not me. Let me send you over here. Right. And so that, that's, that was a big part of where I'm at now. Yeah.

I wish there was an easy happy ending to, to tell here that, that you decided to, to be a life coach and all of a sudden the money starts rolling in.

Yeah.

But it took a while.

It took a while. Um, let's see. It wasn't until maybe 2 years ago, 2 years ago, honestly. And I don't push my social media anymore. It's not a thing. I started to gain a lot of resentment towards it because I realized, like you said, there's a lot of charlatans out there, right? And a lot of people that do great at social media that are terrible human beings behind, you know, behind closed doors. You know, integrity is a big piece for me and accountability and If you're not aligned with those things, I don't feel like you should be doing this work. And people are going to do it no matter what, right? You see coaches popping up everywhere. It sounds cool. It looks cool. Your own freedom. But for me, it's just like, if you're not doing your own work, you're actually doing your clients a disservice, right? And in no way am I perfect. I have my shit. I have my blind spots. But what I know is I'm consistent with the work that I'm doing.

Yeah, I love that. And as you started to develop your process, you started to attract better and more aligned clients.

Mm-hmm.

What limiting beliefs or ideas around money did you have to actually heal for yourself before the money could start coming in?

For me, what has really helped me is you hear a lot of people talk about, you know, positive mantras every day, write 'em in your bathroom mirror. And for me, that never worked. And for, if it works for some people, great. When I was really even outside of the money and just stepping out of self-hate, I started with what-if statements for myself. What if I could love myself? Right? What if I could be good enough? What if I could start to value myself up here? And just playing off rather than just a huge contrast of I hate myself to I love myself. For me, it helped connect the bridge of just starting and playing with the what-ifs. It's very nuanced, right? And that's how I started to heal those places. And then as I healed, for me, it's the more I heal, the more wisdom I obtain. And it's just like downloads, downloads, downloads. And yeah, I do research. I— I read books, but I do feel like a deeper connection comes with source, comes with God, whatever your beliefs are, the more you heal. And that is what has brought more alignment into me and realizing, oh, not, not only what if, it's now of what makes sense.

What does wealth mean to you now?

So wealth for me has changed significantly from when I was young to even when I started this. 'Cause as you have and as you do, I've had a lot of very successful clients, right? Millionaires, billionaires, all of it. And not all of them were wealthy. They had the houses, they had the perfect family on Instagram, social media. But what I realize is with money, a lot of money can come with a huge cost. And for me, for some of these guys, it was a loss of freedom. They were dictated by the money.

They—

it was all— I had some clients where it was always about more, where they neglected their family, they neglected their wife, and now they're they're exiting and kids want nothing to do with them, wife has already left. For me, that's not wealthy. Wealth for me is freedom, is absolute freedom to do what I want when I want to with no constraints. And I've been living that wealth for a while now. And for me, that's absolutely beautiful. You know, I don't, I have the house, you know, I'm in a long distance relationship back and forth. I only have my daughter and then I have 4 stepchildren. And to be able to provide and support where I need to and, you know, take my daughter wherever she wants to go and whatever she needs. And I do spoil her. I'm not going to lie. She's my only one. So she's going to, she's going to get spoiled. Well, wealth is freedom, right? I'm not allowing the more to create a black hole that That's my only obsession. It's what it gives me. And that's alignment for me with wealth.

And how do you help people bridge that gap? That, you know, that client that comes to you that has financial excess but no true wealth. What do you, what do you walk them through?

Well, it's reestablishing their values. Like, why are you here in the first place? Well, my, my marriage is suffering. My kids want nothing to do with me, right? And because for like most people, all of us grow up, it's just like, I want the money, I want the house, I want the cars, and I'll do anything to do that. And we forget that we neglect the things that are actually important, that actually mean something, right? And so it's reestablishing the values and then, okay, what are you willing to do to obtain those new values, right? Do you actually need to go, you know, Be working 80 hours a week, missing your kids' sports. Is that something that's actually a need or is that just a habit or old pattern that needs to be broken? Yeah, I could actually look at that, right? And it obviously goes a lot deeper and there's usually so much trauma connected to that, you know, and trauma creates a lot of success, as we all know as well. And so for me, it's just like repatterning and seeing what exactly they do want to call in and what they're willing to do to get there.

And that second part is so powerful, right? Because a lot of people will give lip service to what they say they want.

Right.

But they're not willing to do the hard work to actually make the change. How do you think about that and how do you help clients actually connect with doing the work?

Well, a lot has to come with accountability, right? If you're gonna invest in yourself working with me, you're also gonna get all of me. Right? I am very loving. I'm never an asshole, but you know me, I can be very, very direct. Right? And if you're not going to be accountable, don't waste my time. And that's something I'll say to them in our consultation. Right? If you cannot handle, if your ego is so big because everyone around you has loved you, has praised you for the success you have, but then you're coming to me because you want to shift some patterns, let's do it. Right? And so that's how it goes too. And I've never, you know, since I've been aligned with myself and who I call in and who I am willing to say no to, I don't have that problem at all. It's guys that are hungry. It's like, okay, I see it. I've been looking at your page for 6 months now. I know, I knew I didn't need to do it. I'm finally doing it. Let's go. And I'm like, all right, let's go.

Yeah, it's, it's amazing how that happens. And that, that maps to my own experience is the more I am aligned with my values, right? And, and by the way, you know, waking up in alignment to your values isn't always a rose garden. It doesn't mean every day is filled with bliss and joy, right? Right. But there's a steadfastness that comes where, you know, an analogy I like to use is, is the rock in the sea. Some days the waves are big, some days the waves are small. The rock doesn't wish for the waves to be any different, right? How do you help people cultivate that?

Well, I think it's, I mean, getting very grounded for yourself is something that I know you've seen as well, is a deeper connection to your body. There's so many people, and when I say for yourself, like clients that you've worked with, there's so many people that are disconnected from their body. That have overrun it, don't pay attention to it. And when you can allow yourself to start feeling, though, either that pain, that fear, that sadness, whatever that may be, that's how you start to ground, right? But if you're just overrunning it and bulldozing it all the time, it's gonna be very hard not to get to that place that you need to.

I know you can help others so well with this because this is the path that you walked. What was it like for you to connect with your body?

So I've always been connected with my body. I've felt everything. And because I had to grow up in survival, right? Am I safe here? Am I gonna get jumped here? Like, what does this look like? Am I, and then when I stepped into spiritual work, I'm like, yeah, this is my superpower. I can, I'm very empathetic. I can feel everything. And then the more I learn, I'm like, no, that's a trauma response. I'm like, damn. It's a trauma response, right? And so getting to the place of understanding what it is and honing it in was really important because what I realized as a child and even in adolescence until I grew up and started in this work, I felt everything from everybody all the time, whether it was stress from my mom, anger from my dad, people I hung out with, like walk into a room, I just feel everything. And I still do. The only difference is like I can now decipher what is mine and what is not. Right. And that's been very, very helpful. And in turn, I'm very much introverted. Right. Some people are very good at like putting the bubble over themselves and not feeling it. Wherever I go, I feel it all. And so if I go to a place like a stadium or a concert, like I'm donezo for a week. Right? So, but it's identifying a big part of what's mine and what's not.

And as we go down that path of identifying what's ours and what's not, the next step there is letting go of judgment. Letting go of the beliefs that we imagine other people have about us. How has that been for you? And what does that look like?

I think that's a great question. And it's something I'm still navigating. Growing up, I was always told how I needed to be, right? And as I got older and as I got bigger, I would always be told how scary and intimidating I am. And I still get told this to this day, right? And so I'm like, okay, do I need to lessen myself? Do I need to be more bubbly, even though I'm not a bubbly person? Like, what can I do to make other people feel more safe. And even like when I go out in social settings, I'm not a big talker, right? And people either think I'm arrogant or I'm judgy or I'm just an asshole, right? Which is all fair to judge me by. And then people get to know me, they're like, oh, you're none of that. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not. And so I think for men of color, we're being told stereotypes all the time of how we're supposed to be to make other people feel safe. I'm just not doing that, right? I am by no means an unsafe person, right? I am actually a very safe man that I take pride in, right? But I don't have to prove that to anyone else because of your insecurities, if that makes sense.

It makes total sense. And it's a beautiful place to arrive at. But I know it takes a commitment and Really, it starts with self-love, right? If you have been told your entire life, I need you to be different for my preference, for my safety, it's really hard to start saying, okay, what is it I actually want? How do you even start that process?

Of getting to a place of self-acceptance, right? I know what I am and I know what I'm not, right? I'm not gonna be the guy that walks into the house and greets everyone, wants to talk to you, wants to know how your day is. Like, I hate small talk more than anything in the world, you know? And so if we're going to talk, let's, let's talk about something meaningful, right? But for me, it's like, as I went from self-hate and I started bridging everything with a what if, a lot of that is like, okay, this is how I see myself. Where can I improve? Right? And where are places within me that I'm just good being me, where I don't feel like I need to morph into something else? Right? And so it's been something I've had to untether for a very, very long time. You know, and there's even conversations with my partner. She's like, hey, when we go out to dinner with another couple, you actually have to talk. I'm like, oh, am I not talking? She's like, no. I'm like, okay, I'll do better. Like when I get together with you and Claire, we can banter and have fun all the time. But it's just like with new people, I'm just, it is a blind spot, right? I can talk a little bit more and share a little bit more of who I am and actually ask questions, right? And act like I want to be there. That's something I can improve on, right? But other circumstances, like I'm not going to play smaller so you don't feel intimidated. I'm not going to do that.

Well, and in some ways, holding that line, right? Allows people who are ready to receive you to get to know you at a deeper level and then receive all of this beautiful safety and strength and see you for who you are rather than who they need you to be. It's actually sort of a filtering mechanism.

Yep, 100%. Yeah.

And yeah, watching you own that and unapologetically be you has been something that's been very inspiring to me. Because it's, what strikes me is the very thing, right? The way you grew up being told that you don't belong.

Mm-hmm.

What I see is a man who belongs with himself.

Yep. Yeah. Thank you. It's taken a long time to get here.

Yeah. What is, what's sort of the underpinning of your coaching philosophy? Why would someone work with you? What do you help people with? I'd love to kind of dive into your world a bit.

That's a great question. After 9 years of doing this, you think I would have a great elevator pitch and I don't. You know, I've built a beautiful business off referral only, which says a lot. You know, I have nearly 100 5-stars on Google and that I'm something that I'm starting to like celebrate a little bit, the success that I've had. I am very good at finding the North Star and helping people get there, right? You want to go north? Let's get there, right? And I'm very good at mirroring people, their stories, their bullshit, and helping them in a very lovingly, either fatherly or brotherly way, get to where they need to go, right? I have a very powerful intuition. Where I can support people in the success, in finding power within their relationships. And I never thought in a million years I would absolutely love doing what I do. And I love doing what I do, right? It is a lot of fun. And, you know, every single one of my clients I can say is just like, I have such a deep love and admiration for. And because there's such a responsibility that comes with what we do, right? If you're going to invest in me and in this path, we're going to get there no matter what. Right. And so, yeah, we can break down all— but what I realize is just like, I can't say just one thing because every client and every story is so different. As you know, right? And so, yeah, that's kind of the breakdown of it.

What I see, if I may reflect, is a man who is deeply embodying healthy masculinity. And, uh, you know, based on plenty of conversations, I'm not super into this divine masculine, divine feminine thing, but I think there is a lot of unhealthy masculinity in the world. So how do you think about masculinity, and, and what does it mean to you?

You know, with the men that I work with, I always go over the 4 pillars. Is integrity first and foremost. What is your character and values like, and do you hold to them? What do you like behind closed doors when no one's watching, right? That is very, very important first and foremost. Second, can you be accountable? Can you own your shit, right? Like, hey, I messed up, I apologize, I'm going to do better, and you do do better. And the third is something all of us work on is emotional safety, right? With partnerships, with other people, like, can you actually just be a safe man and regulate your emotions? Right? And that is, I think most, I'd say the majority of men are physically safe, right? They're not, you know, creating fights and hitting people and hitting their partner and stuff like that. But When it comes to emotional safety, it doesn't just mean we're not screaming and yelling. It also means, are we disassociating? Are we just shutting down and not sharing where we're at so everyone in the house feels uncertain and are unscared or scared as well? And so if we apply those three, then that takes us to the fourth one is leadership. It makes us worthy enough to lead. And that's how you lead in a proper way. The problem that I'm seeing today especially on social media, is this red pill attitude where we focus all the blame on someone else that is creating our life. I'm not getting my job. I'm not living the life I want. I'm not happy because X, Y, and Z. That'll keep you out of powerful masculinity faster than anything else, right? There's a problem where more people are creating separation rather than unity. And separation just creates more chaos, more anger, more confusion. What I see needs to happen to truly embody masculinity is identifying where you're not showing up safe, accountable, or with integrity. And that's what I'm seeing right now.

Man, I love that, that answer. And, you know, for the people listening, I think that's about as good a definition as I've ever heard. And, and the reality is that that can apply to women just as 100%, right? And, and that's, that's why I have such a problem labeling any of those qualities as masculine or feminine. It's shared language that we can all understand, but, but those are the qualities of a great human, right? And I know you work with a lot of women too. How do you apply that framework to women?

You know, women usually come to me because they want to create and learn what safe masculinity looks and feels like. And if I'm not working with their husband as well, and they're, they're coming to me separately, I take great pride in that and holding that container for them. It helps reprogram their nervous system, like, oh, this is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. And there will even be situations where I create a disagreement and they can be held in safety in it within a disagreement rather than shouting, yelling, or any form of abuse. Right? And so they get to know what that looks and feels like is something very, very important.

A lot of the lack of safety comes from one primary emotion, which is anger.

Mm-hmm.

What is your relationship with anger like and how has that evolved?

Yeah, I think that's a great question because as men, we grow up, it's with a huge contrast. It's either like, you either need to be good or else you're angry, right? And anger and rage was kind of celebrated as, as boys and as men. It's just like, but you don't show anything else in between that. You don't show sadness. You don't show any type of emotion because that's weak. And so I've had to reprogram and look at, because I used to have a lot of rage, and you and I have had great conversations about rage. Anger is an absolute necessity to all our human emotion. Where we need to show up is actually, can we actually develop a relationship where we're safe with our anger? Right? How can we channel it in a way where it doesn't take away safety from anyone else? Right? And our anger does need to be expressed, just as women, women's anger gets to be expressed as well. The place where I really, and I reflect back to when you and I were in Austin and we discussed rage, is rage is something we hold in the tool belt, right? I remember this conversation. And when we only need to protect, that's when rage comes out, right? For me, rage came out everywhere as a kid. I never got angry in sports. I found I played better as a running back and as a winger in rugby when I was not angry. I could just flow. Some people are very good at playing. There's some friends that I have like, yeah, they need to play angry. I didn't. But recalibrating that and realize I actually don't need to go into rage. But if I do, what is it that my rage is actually protecting? What is behind the rage? Well, it's anger, sure. But deeper under that? Is the sadness that we're protecting. Right? And so if we can kind of reverse engineer and get to the sadness and look at that and bring it out, that's how we start to heal it. Right? And that's, for me, that was a lot of inner child work that I am still doing till this day. I'm not, I trust myself in a way, such in a way now, where, you know, my anger is, talking like this, might have a little more activation, doesn't need to go into screaming and yelling. And it was interesting because, you know, my partner and I got into an argument a couple of weeks ago where I'm like, wow, like 4 or 5 years ago, I'd be screaming and yelling right now. And I'm talking like this, sitting on the couch like this. So she doesn't feel like, you know, I'm not, I'm not agreeing with her at all. I'm angry. I'm activated, but I didn't take away safety. Right? And in the past I have. Right? So it was a great reflection for me.

So Rob, when it comes to expressing anger, I think this is such a difficult and yet deeply necessary skill for men, right? We either, as men, tend to express anger in unsafe ways or just wall it off.

Right.

Get rid of it, push it down. How would someone begin to have a healthy relationship with anger?

I think the number one thing that it's really helped me is being able to express, "I'm angry." I don't have to say anything else. "I'm angry right now." That goes actually a long way. That way, no one around me is guessing where I'm at, right? They're not just feeling my heavy energy, right? Number one. Number two is, like I said, developing a healthy relationship with anger is getting very clear in a— when you're not in a triggered state is like, okay, when I'm angry, what am I feeling? Okay, what am I needing? And being able to identify those things, right? Sometimes we just need to walk. Sometimes I just need to go to the gym and throw some weight around, right? Or go to rugby and hit some guys. It feels good. And then I'm just like, I'm not as charged. I still feel strongly about this right here. But now I'm in a way where I can actually convey how I'm feeling, where it can actually be received. Because when we're in anger and that safety is taken away, it puts the other person in defense every single time. Right? We're in defense. I got to protect myself. So I'm here to prove you wrong and myself right. Right? That's how a lot of times we enter into that relation with anger when two people are activated. And so it's getting very clear of what you need and what is actually happening in your body. And as you practice that more and more, And just simply saying, hey, I'm angry right now. I am frustrated. Do you need a timeout? Can we reconvene? Sure. Let's do that. Right. And so there's no one clear way. It's getting a better— it's a better understanding of how you're operating when you're in that place of trigger.

Yeah, it's such a beautiful skill set. And, you know, you and I could talk endlessly about this, but Um, this has been such a beautiful conversation. Rob, I know you're out on social media nowadays, but where can people find you if they're interested in your work? If they, if they heard something today that sparked something in them and they want to get in touch, how can they do that?

Yeah, I'm still up online. I'm just not posting videos more than other than like family and stuff like that, but just @RobSirstins, S-I-R-S-T-I-N-S. Then I have a website as well that needs to be updated, but yeah, you can find my links through there and Contact me if you'd like to work.

Great. And we'll have those links in the, in the show notes. Rob, if you could leave our listeners, uh, with one thought, one, one idea, something you wish you knew earlier, what would that be?

That is a great question. What do I wish I knew earlier? Wishing I knew that I was going to get to this point would have been great. And obviously, like, the positive remark would be, it's just like, yeah, you had to go through what you went through. And for the wisdom you developed. And that sounds great. It sounds very Hallmark card. And you also hear this, you know, saying all the time, like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And I'm like, in a lot of ways, my trauma has hindered me. It hindered me in a way of success. It hindered me in a way of belonging. It hindered me in a way of actually just developing normal social skills, right? And trusting human interaction. And yes, there's positives on every side. But for me, it is getting to know myself and the full acceptance of it. Like, that confidence is what I wish I knew earlier. Because it would, it would be remarkable to see where I, where I am now compared to all the luggage I had to slowly unpack over the years.

Yeah. And grateful for that version of yourself that put the gun down and stepped into the work.

Yeah.

Because it requires a lot of bravery.

Yeah, it does.

Rob, what a beautiful story. What a beautiful journey. Thank you for being here. I deeply appreciate you, my friend.

Absolutely. Grateful to be here. Love you dearly.

Yeah, same, same. Cheers.