In this episode of The Inner Circle, hosts Kevin and Mike Brown explore the line between necessary resilience and needless suffering. Mike shares his personal journey from a "pain‑cave" mindset—using negative self‑talk and relentless grind to achieve military, business, and endurance‑sport success—to a newer season of ease, self‑love, and what he calls "devotion": disciplined effort without self‑harm. Kevin adds observations about the cultural glorification of the "grindset" and questions whether suffering is a prerequisite for success. Together they discuss how to choose which hardships are worth enduring, emphasizing alignment with deeper values and service to others. Metaphors from rock climbing (being "lazy" on the wall to conserve energy) and a Zen‑like focus on finding joy in mundane tasks (the "sweeping the floor" koan) illustrate practical ways to work smarter, not harder. They also introduce the concept of a "not‑to‑do list" as a tool for discernment, stressing the importance of saying no to misaligned work. The conversation ends on an open‑ended note, acknowledging that the quest to balance effort, meaning, and ease is ongoing and that asking the right questions is itself valuable.
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Hey everybody. Welcome to The Inner Circle with Kevin and Mike. Let me, uh, let me tell you how this podcast works. So Mike and I, you know, daily, if not hourly, have text conversations just about life. I mean, that was kind of the impetus for doing this show and calling it The Inner Circle. And occasionally a topic will come up that sort of hits a nerve with both of us. It's something we're both thinking about a lot. And so we say, let's flag this for an episode. And this is one that probably has been the number one topic we've been discussing lately. And I'm going to frame it this way. Here's the prompt, and then I'm going to ask you, Mike, to riff on it a little bit. But how do you discern the difference between necessary resilience and unnecessary suffering?
I mean, this is such a poignant question, I think, in both of our lives. And, uh, it's a tough one, right? And, uh, because for so much of my life, I spent, you know, deep in that pain cave, deep in the suffering, like I can do anything. And I will, I am a force of nature that will will myself to success. And there's something so beautiful about that, especially when you're young. But the reality is, for me at least, and I think for the majority of people, I was running on dirty fuel, right? It was negative self-talk fueled by an internal feeling of not enoughness. And that dirty fuel is really potent fuel. Like, I mean, I pushed through a lot of really hard stuff from my military service to building a business, to endurance racing. you know, getting to the top levels in Ironman and, you know, I would really push through. I used to have a quote on my Facebook wall back when that was a thing that said, "Make friends with pain and you'll never be alone." You're the cliché. Totally. But I mean, that's literally how I would get through an Ironman or a 100-mile mountain bike race. Like, I would just go deep in the in the pain cave and this idea of like get comfortable being uncomfortable. I mean, I was the king of being uncomfortable. I was happy when I was deep in suffering. But at some point, as I started down the path of personal development, unwinding some of my core wounds and traumas and unpacking sort of this dirty fuel that made me so successful, I realized like this is not a healthy way to live. And even though it was creating a lot of external success, it was killing me on the inside.
Yeah.
Well, as I start to re-pattern and I'll, and I'll let you go. As I start to re-pattern, I think I found myself trending more toward laziness, like trending more toward giving up. And I've been in a season of ease and by the way, ease feels amazing and self-love feels amazing, but now I'm building again. I'm finding the tank requires a different fuel.
Um, I say this sort of half jokingly. Uh, I can't wait to, to feel what laziness and ease feels like. Uh, it's, it's been the struggle of my life and, you know, we're, you know, we're, we're preaching to the choir here with, you know, a couple of, you know, I would argue like extreme high performers. We're just wired that way. And of course there are benefits to being a high performer and there are also downsides and You know, I think the thing we've talked about a lot lately is society has really glamorized this idea of the grindset, Hormozy being sort of the, the prime example. And we have a, a friend, Paul Millard, who's actually, he writes a lot about this, is this idea that, you know, this idea that suffering is a requirement is super, has become pervasive in culture, especially among men. And, you know, do you really need to suffer to be successful? And also, The real question behind that is like, what is success? And you'll, I think that's basically my story, right? Like I came out of college and put my head down for 20 years and made it all the way to the top of the corporate world. Check, check, check, check all the boxes and realized I was miserable. And so that wasn't, you know, actually it looked like success. I guess a lot of people would call that, society would call it success. But it wasn't. So there's this, this, this really interesting dynamic here of, um, you know, we only grow by doing hard things and, you know, struggle is at least part of the reward, but at what point does struggle become suffering?
Yeah. And, uh, the reality is, you know, what I'm trending toward at least is, as with most things in life, the answer is in the middle way, right? I still want to know that I have the ability to do hard things. But I want to choose my hard things and everything doesn't have to be hard. Right. And so I think this comes down to a question of what's worth suffering for. Right. And, and for me, at least in this season of my life, like building my first business built, you know, building my mountain of success, even my endurance racing, it was really all about me. It, it, it, like at the core level, it was all about me and my success and what could I get out of this? And as I've shifted more toward this, this midlife chrysalis, as I would say, instead of midlife crisis, which is, which is a term I love, chrysalis. I have really shifted to, to, you know, how can I use this pain that I went through, the suffering that I endured to try to, you know, inspire others, help others heal and, you know, help people get off the hamster wheel and really build a life of meaning. And. That to me, helping other people wake up and fully inhabit their life is worth suffering for. It's worth putting in the reps. And that's why I chose my word of the year this year, devotion, because I define devotion as discipline without self-harm. I have discipline in spades. I can, I can look in the mirror and say, you piece of shit, you better get up and work out. I did it for years. I don't want to do that anymore. I want to work out because I like the way my body feels, because I know that I'm at my highest service for others when my body is fit and feels good. Right. Same concept, totally different energy. So, so that's my question is what's, what's worth suffering for?
Yeah. And, um, I'm reminded of, I think it was Chris Williamson, the podcaster who asked the question, what would life look like in easy mode? And I think it's worth contemplating because I actually like that you use the word lazy. Because it reminds me of, um, the, when I first started rock climbing back in 1999, um, I went to a gym, was immediately hooked, and I hired a climbing guide to take me outside the next weekend. So I was, I was what we call in climbing an over-stoker, uh, super motivated, but no knowledge of the sport. But anyway, he said something to me that I still, I repeat all the time. And I think about it all the time. Um, which is when you're on the rock, you want to be as lazy as possible because that's actually the most efficient way to get things done. I think that applies to a lot of things in life. Like we don't have to choose to be at max effort all the time. There is a notion of like, what's the easy path here? Like the goal is actually to get there, to achieve the objective. In the case of climbing, like getting to the top and clipping the chains while exerting the least amount of energy and As you know, this is probably the central struggle in my life right now because last June I started a new business called Bolt and, um, I started it at a, at a phase of life where I've, I've got, I'm not willing to compromise my lifestyle like I was in my twenties and thirties. And so the question is, is there an easy mode or at least a moderately difficult mode that allows me to maintain boundaries and not screw up my life basically while building this business, which I am passionate about, but I'm simply unwilling to grind away for 80 hours a week these days.
Yeah. Here's the other thing though about the hustle till you die, you know, mindset is I actually think it implies an inherent lack of discernment and lack of wisdom. Right? Like, like when you're, when you're a first-time founder, you actually have no idea what works. So you just do everything and throw everything at the wall and hopefully your effort will make up for all of the mistakes you're making. But now as you've gathered wisdom along your, your, your path, like you should have really good discernment for the things that actually move the needle. And I would offer that, like, you can go all in. On those particular things. But this idea of like, of working like a lion, right? They sprint as hard as they can one time a day to hunt, and then they lay around the rest of the day. Like, I love that. That's how I feel right now. I'm going all in on writing. I'm going all in on coaching and speaking. Like, those are the things where I put maximal effort, but it's maximal effort into a creative pursuit, which feels a little different than hustle mode.
Yeah. And actually, when we were discussing this topic, you reminded me that I recently abandoned my first climbing project ever. So in climbing, when you're trying to work a really hard route and it takes many, many attempts and many days, we call it a project. And, you know, I'm still climbing as hard as ever, tackling ever harder projects. And I tackled this project in the Flatirons called Sauten. S-O-T-E-N, and it's, it would be the hardest climb I've ever done. Um, and I put a bunch of days in on it and, um, you know, I'm all, I, I, I'm like, I've really learned climbing has taught me to enjoy the process, but on this particular climb, it, I reached a point where it just started feeling like work, like suffering, like the hike up to the base is a pain in the butt. And just like getting on the routes, a lot of logistics and it's just hard work. And I actually abandoned it. And that was a big deal. It sounds like a small thing, but that was a really big deal for me because it's the first time in my life, like, I'm like a dog with a bone, man. Like when I get on, it's the first time in my life I've really like consciously abandoned a project and I may come back to it at some point, but I think it comes back to your point around like, it just felt like it wasn't worth the suffering anymore.
Yeah. And what it really gets down to is a question of alignment. Right. Um, and so, you know, what are my values and what actions are aligned with those values? You know, no matter how much I love, love writing, no matter how much I love coaching, like some days it feels like work, right? But when I push through, there's always this end result of service that makes the feeling worth it, right? Because it's no longer about me. I know I can actually push through the hard times. On the days when I get up and maybe I don't feel like doing it, there's a bigger goal than myself. I'm connected to something greater than self. And I think that's what makes suffering worth it. And climbing is such a, you know, it's a huge passion for you, but it is ultimately a selfish endeavor, right? In some ways. And so, when it starts to suck, like, what are we doing here?
Yeah. Like, this is supposed to be fun. And you know, the, the real fun is the growth. Like no matter if it's building a company or a career or, or rock climbing, you know, you're in it for the growth. But at some point, if it becomes, you know, 80% suffering and 20% joy, because I was going to come back to the point you just made around, I think there's, there's a, there's two important points. Number one is as good as it gets is doing things that are aligned. And you and I are both fortunate that we get to do most of what we do is aligned. But, but it still involves hard, unpleasant work. And I think, you know, that's a piece where I'm trying to find balance around like, what does that part look like? I, I, you know, everything I do at this stage, I, I pretty much won't do anything that's not aligned, but how do I hold myself accountable to doing the necessary work to get the outcome or the growth that I want?
Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, this is something I, I, I wrestle with, right? Is like, what would it be like to start another company? I know you're on that path right now, and I can tell you, like, quite frankly, I don't have the energy for that right now. Like, I know what it takes to, to make a company successful, at least in that, in that startup mode. And I love to think I would be more efficient and better at delegating and use all my lessons learned, but there is still some elbow grease that, Bitch, it is a requirement.
Unavoidable.
Yeah. And so it's been really informative for me to kind of watch you bump up against some of these same things and go, man, like, how would I deal with that? And then use that as a mirror in my own life of like, you know, I am incredibly passionate about what I do. If there's like, you may say many things about me, but I care about what I'm putting into the world. And I know I could crank up my effort 20%. Yeah. And so I, like, I, I often wonder like, what would that look like? Hmm.
I think that's really interesting to explore. Um, because it could be that you're at that inflection point where an extra 20% would be expo— would result in exponentially more, whatever that might mean. Um, but, but there's one, one thing I want to kind of add that's related here. And I think this will be my, my last comment on this is You know, something I've been thinking about a lot lately is we all have like these, we love to-do lists. Like we have lists of things we want to do, things we want to accomplish, whatever. What we rarely do is have the not-to-do lists. And our friend Anthony Vicino gave me this idea. And I always used to joke when I was in the corporate world that if I ever wrote a business book, the title would be The hardest part is saying no, because it's really easy to get into a conference room with a bunch of people and like, you know, let ideas flow and talk about all the great things you're gonna do. But having the discipline to, to, and the discernment, to use the word you started with, to, to say no, this is, and I think that's what I was thinking when you said like, sometimes like maybe you observing me starting Bolt is like a reminder, like, oh, that's not something I wanna do. At least not right now. Not right now. Yep. Yep. Um, and I went through that process, uh, and, um, the only, the only reason I started the company, because I kept coming back to not only yes, but hell yes. And I'm still firmly in that court, but that doesn't mean that it's not a struggle. Like the things I struggle with are the things I struggle with, and that's gonna always be the case.
Yeah. I mean, and, and, you know, I happen to know how much you care about the mission and, and, you know, testosterone and how it literally changes lives. I mean, I don't think it's a far cry to say, like, your mission is changing men's lives from a health perspective. And so, it does make some of it worth it, but you and I have crafted really great lives. Like, we wake up in the morning and do what we want to do. And comfort is addicting, man.
Well, I think you've said it really well. You have some You say something to the effect of like, you leap out of bed every morning to get to work and there are things you have to do that suck.
Yeah.
Both things are true.
Both are true. I mean, I still hate paying taxes. I still hate answering email. Right. I mean, um, and, and it, it doesn't, it doesn't ever go away. Um, and, and that there's another beautiful, uh, Zen koan that that I often use that you have adopted and I love so much, which is before enlightenment, sweep the floor, chop wood and carry water or sweep the floor depending on the lineage and after enlightenment, sweep the floor and finding joy and devotion in sweeping the floor, like sweeping the floor doesn't go away. It doesn't matter what you've accomplished. It doesn't matter how much you've healed. It doesn't matter how passionate you are about your project. There's some floor sweeping that needs to occur. And can I fully inhabit the moment when I'm sweeping the floor? And can I find joy and presence even in that? And that's the challenge.
Yes. And guess what? Sweeping the floor is all there is anyway. It turns out that a very small percentage of our life is spent on peak moments, like, you know, having sex, you know, being on an exotic vacation, whatever. That's not life. Life is sweeping the floor. And so if you can't find joy in that, you can't find joy.
Yeah, totally. I mean, how we spend our days is how we spend our lives and it is the bulk sweeping the floor. And, uh, I think the greatest, um, a mystery that I am really enjoying unraveling at like at this current moment in my life is finding more joy and presence. In, in the mundane.
100%. Yeah. And again, that's all there is anyway. And I will tell you that being a little bit older than you, um, that really hits you hard. Like you start asking these questions, you know, and you're, I'm in my mid-fifties, like, you know, what, what is life all about really? And, um, it's not about the grandiose accomplishments, um, or high fives or big wins at work or big paydays, whatever. It really is the mundane things that compound into a great life.
Totally, man. Well, uh, I think we have to, to mark this one as open-ended to, to be continued because, uh, this is, this is a path that we're on currently. And, and that's something I love about this show format is Kevin and I don't pretend that we have all the answers. I mean, we are, we are today years old figuring this shit out and, you know, hopefully our, our, uh, incoherent rambling rambling resonates with some of you guys that may be on the same path because I don't have the answers, but man, I'm having fun trying to figure it out.
Well, I think all we're trying to do is spark the questions, right? Because the, you know, you don't get the answers if you're not thinking about it. And so, and some of these things you have to wrestle with for years, if not a lifetime.
All right. That's it for this episode. Uh, thanks for tuning in. We'll see you guys next time.
