Haas MBA Reality Check: Culture, Burnout & International Student Life

Personally, I felt imposter syndrome a lot in my life, but never has. Even though I was different and even though I didn't come from a consulting background or more traditional data background, I felt that the, the university embraced my profile and if anything it was, it was good to belong to such a diverse student body. But I also did a couple of exercises and I would love to share that with everyone if you're feeling the imposter syndrome. What I did and really worked for me was.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to MBA Golden Buzzer. Today I'm joined by Becca Souza, a former client and Berkeley Haas graduate. She's here to give us a candid look at what life is really like in the Haas mba. Berkeley is known for its defining leadership principles and values driven culture. But we're also going to talk about the parts of the MBA that no one prepares you for. The pressure, the burnout, and what it really takes to protect your well being while still chasing your goals. So if you're considering Haas or wondering how to stay grounded in a high achieving, high pressure environment, this episode is for you. So Becca, thank you so much for being here. It's so good to connect with you again. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

I feel the same. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Excited to share a little bit of my experience.

And so for anyone who might be getting to know you for the first time, let's start a little bit with your journey. Can you tell us where you're from? What got you thinking about the MBA to start with?

Yes, absolutely. So I'm from Fertiliza Sierra in Brazil and I started thinking about the MBA while I was working at Natura. I think all Brazilians know this company, but for non Brazilians it's a multinational cosmetic company. And I had this amazing job, but I decided I wanted to expand my horizons and start my international career. So back in 2019, that's when I decided after almost six years in the business and as a marketing manager, I decided to start pursuing and applying for MBAs. It was a very long journey. I value remember it took me about three years and that obviously was also due to Covid some personal issues, especially health related issues with members of my family. So it was definitely a long process but it made me who I am today. I think it also prepared me for a bunch of things I did not expect to live during the mba, which hopefully we're going to talk a little bit here. And after 10 months of graduation and also another challenge moment I finally landed an amazing job and I'm super happy about it. So I'm staying here in the Silicon Valley and I am definitely, um, I'm definitely in favor of people going through the hard moments and keep persistent because in the end it's going to be worth it. Absolutely.

I think that's something that we talked about, but also I talk about with other clients, is that no two people's MBA journeys look the same. And a lot of times it doesn't look like what you think it's going to look like starting out. And a lot of times that's a good thing because where you think you want to end up is not where you belong. And for you, that place where you ended up and belonged was at haas. What made you choose Haas when you were going through that application process? Why did the school stand out for you?

That's a great question. So for me personally, I visited all the schools I visited, I think 10 schools in 2019. I was lucky to be able to visit in person before COVID I know that makes a difference. And something happened when I entered haas. I just felt like I belonged. I never. It's a rare feeling. And I can maybe try to explore, explain in rational, rational arguments such as speaking to some students, attending the class, seeing firsthand how students behave in a classroom, how humble they were, how cooperative, like they're always helping one another. That obviously helps. But there was something more. I just had a feeling that I wanted to belong to this school that states in one of their values question the status quo. I think that was one of the values that I'm like, really? You know, some institutions, they're actually scared of people questioning the status quo. And I'm going to a business school that actually has that as a value and written in their walls. So I'm like, okay, this is something different. And yeah, I have to say, no regrets. It was definitely my, my place.

And we talked a little bit about. You mentioned that they have this really strong values. They have the four principles. Right. Which people definitely, if they're applying to haas, should know. Is that something that you felt from day one and how did it show up in the day to day life on campus?

Yes, I did felt that in day one. And people should know about those principles because they. I have friends who for example, tried to apply to haas. They even had better scores than mine, sometimes even more achievements and they didn't even landed an interview. And I personally think that is due to the values and maybe it just didn't show up in Their applications and the values are not something that people should undermine or underestimate because we do feel that everywhere we even on my first day when I visited haas, I spoke to someone in the, the office that they were helping incoming students and they've mentioned, yeah, we prefer to have a smaller classroom than accepting people who don't share our values. So the core values, it's, it's very clear. Students are confident. You can tell, you can feel that in classrooms when we talk about our experience, experiences when we question professors. But it, it always comes on a place of I am here to learn and if I am wrong, please let's discuss it. So it, it is a confident confidence without attitude. The question, the status quo. It's a public school and all the major changes are mostly driven by students. We do have an open dialogue with the school student always. It's also something that we see and I know how flexible our, our course is and being able to try things you've never tried before and go beyond your boundaries and obviously beyond yourself. It's also the value that someone who comes to Haas, it's, it's someone who is envisioning a career in a leadership position but always understanding the responsibility they have in the world, what is their impact in society, in environment. So this beyond yourself is also a value that come across everyone who joins Haas.

And I think that flexible academic structure is definitely one of the hallmarks that sets HAAS apart from a lot of the other business schools. How did you navigate that experience? How did you choose classes? What was that like?

I love that question because I think it justifies why. One of the reasons why I chose Haas, I am, I am a marketer has always been. I'm not a very super data driven person in the sense of I'm not an engineer, I don't come from a data background. And it was definitely scary to know that I'm going to share a classroom with everyone who are mostly data driven people and come from consulting, finance, business. I was, I was a marketer who had a background before in, in diplomacy, international relations. So I was a little scared about all those classes that I'd never taken before. And it's actually a great curriculum because everyone studied the same thing in the, in the beginning. So in the first year we have the core classes. Great. And I would not change a thing. It's definitely very needed, but then you can choose your own. So while I chose my marketing path and deep dived into marketing research, customer insights, branding, some other folks, they went deep in the data Analytics, Python. So you can choose your own destiny, let's put it this way. And I think the flexible structure and curriculum definitely, definitely allows you to do so.

And one of the cool things I remember you shared with me is that you got to class and they read your essay in front of the class.

Oh, my God, Yes.

What was that like?

Yes, it was in our first day. We were in an auditorium, so all the class, the 2024 class, was there. And Eric, who is an amazing, extraordinary person, he's the director for the incoming students. And he started to share some data about the class, the incoming class, and saying, like, I want you to guys to get to know your better. And he started reading, quoting some parts of people's essays. The response to the answer, what makes you feel alive? And that is such. I remember we discussed that essay so many times because it is a very hard question. And he started reading it, and the moment he said he quoted my text that we wrote together, I immediately started crying. Immediately, like, that's her. That's the Brazilian girl. Don't look at me. Yeah, I was not expecting that. Okay.

But I did a good job. I was memorable, clearly. Beyond. And one of the things that a lot of people feel when they get to business school is that there's kind of this sense of imposter syndrome, right? Like, oh my gosh, everyone here is so impressive. What am I doing here? Was there ever a moment where you felt that?

It is interesting because that imposter syndrome is something that we talk about on day one. And I would say it is higher with international students, for sure. I even became part of the student body who helped our career center to train other students for interviews and things like this. And I focused especially on international students. And I spent so much time on imposter syndrome, saying, like, guys, this is something that you have to put on your agenda for your first goal to get out of you. Like, it cannot exist. Personally, I felt imposter syndrome a lot in my life, but never has. Even though I was different and even though I didn't come from a consulting background or more traditional data background, I felt that the. The. The university embraced my profile. And if anything, it was. It was good to belong to such a diverse student body. But I also did a couple of exercises. I feel that a couple tricks. And I would love to share that with everyone if you're feeling the imposter syndrome. What I did and really worked for me was stating all the milestones that you achieved in your life and that you went through and Literally just stating, you don't need to spend time and just. Just do the facts. Facts. What are the things that I achieved, the things that I overcame, the challenges that I. That I went through? And once you've done that, look at that page that you stated all in the. This is facts. This is not. You cannot be an imposter if you went through that. And those are facts. So I've done that, and the students I helped done that. And that is an exercise that at least helped us a little bit in the beginning with the imposter syndrome. And yeah, please, if you're an international student, especially like you're in a business school, shut up. There's no.

You should have even less. Like, you worked super hard. You had to prove that you went to a school that maybe people hadn't heard of before, and you had to show them why it was good, and you had to show all of this context that maybe people didn't understand. And there's fewer spots for international students, but a ton of applicants. So it's really, really competitive. Like, you really worked hard to get a spot there.

Yes, exactly.

And kind of looking back, what would you say was a moment that captures the heart of what it means to you to be a Haas student?

Wow, that is such a difficult question. An amazing question, but very hard to answer. I was reflecting on that, and I would say Haas is very, as I've mentioned before, with the values. Lots of our class, especially core classes, we take cases that discuss diversity and inclusion, especially in the United States. So we're talking obviously about gender, races, religion, so on and so forth. And I remember in one specific class, we were talking about racism and how it was difficult for black African American women to increase their career and, you know, just be a boss, let's put it this way. And I remember seeing a couple of my friends feeling super uncomfortable. Like, you could tell that the case that we were studying triggered a part of, you know, their own experiences. And a couple of us students, we reached out to the black community, the black students, we asked how they were feeling. They also shared their perspective. We sat down with the professors, and we kind of. We came to an agreement of, if you're going to talk about some sensitive topics, just like, prepare us a little before, prepare us that that might going to trigger something and allows us to leave the classroom for a while or come back. And that was a very constructive feedback and also brought even more diverse topics to the discussions.

And.

And then it was actually a data analytics class, so it was not even any leadership class. But it is interesting how how Haas tries to embrace diversity regarding across topics. So yeah, I believe that I don't know if that would happen in many other business schools of people really embracing that some topic or some case might trigger some bad or memories to someone. So that for me was very special. Yeah.

And really just saying, hey, it's cool if you need to step out for a little bit. There's no judgment. You're not going to lose participation points or anything.

Exactly.

And it's really making people feel comfortable to do what they need to do for their own well being. I love that. That's awesome. That's really cool. And when we were talking a little bit about your experience before we started the podcast today, we were talking about burnout. And so let's shift gears a little bit. Can you take us to the moment that you first realized that you were experiencing burnout? Was there a specific breaking point or was it just kind of a slow process for you?

Yes, that is a topic is very sensitive to me and I'm actually, I'm happy to talk about it, but I'm just going to give a heads up. I might cry.

So totally fair. I'm a crier too. Anyone who knows me will be like nodding yes, yes.

Because it's obviously a wound and something that does makes us stronger. But obviously it is a hard topic. So. So I think that my path in business school was extremely challenging in the emotional side because. And that is something that I don't. Don't hear much. I actually, I never heard that. So I'm happy to touch base a little bit on this aspect of the business school, which is lots of us suffer from anxiety, particularly myself. I have generalized anxiety and related to performance and social life, which is the biggest combo of the mba. Exactly, Exactly. So I knew that. And, and it's actually interesting because I've, I was working on my anxiety related to performance and I never, since day one, I never. I entered the MBA to get a job. The MBA for me was a place that I wanted to learn, obviously make friends. But my number one goal was I'm here because I want to stay in the US and I want a career in the US So I need a job. So I say this because performance related. I was never an A plus student. I was a. I'm going to learn, I'm going to do my best. I'm not going to exceed the effort because I'm going to put all my energy into recruiting. That said, I thought I was not going to Burn out. Because I had that expectation with myself.

Boundaries going into this. Right. It's all good.

I'm not gonna, you know, be a perfectionist with myself, but I committed. I made a mistake. I. I had to travel on my first semester and. And I lost a third of the core classes in the very beginning of the semester. Yes. Which is like, please do not travel in your first semester. Don't do that. I. I remember my friends even joke with me. They saw me on the first week of class and then next time they saw me, we were going into midterms and they were like, what are you going to even write about?

That's a long. A long period to be gone.

Yeah, it was two weeks and out of a semester, out of six weeks of class, I missed two weeks. Yes. And the first two weeks also. So the very beginning of the basics of everything. And the reason why I left was because my parents were getting married in Brazil, so I had to be there. But maybe I could have been there shorter. I didn't know it was just six weeks. Anyways, so that was the very beginning of my mba. And because of that I had to catch up and I had to study so much in the very beginning. And then after the first semester, after the first quarter, which is not even the semester, just six weeks, we had the career week and then we had another six weeks of other classes. So that is very common for the core classes to be just six weeks. I know other MBA programs have that too, which is good and bad at the same time. You have the opportunity to learn more, but also in a very fast pace and super intense. And I was not ready for that. I was thinking that I was going to go to class, learn and focus on recruiting, but it just happens everything all at once. So guys, if you're going to an mba, just be aware you're going to study. Like it or not, the academic pressure exists and you need to catch up on your class. You will talk about recruiting almost since day one. And especially now when the. The industry, it's. The entire country is. Is almost. It's going through a hard time, social activities, it just happens ten at a time. It's not like you're going to have one invitation for one party. It's 10 and it's trips and it's.

Like every night of the week you should. Could be doing something.

And I remember just thinking like, how. How am I going to balance all this? And again, I have anxiety that is related to social and performance. And it just happened all together and was Definitely A. And then I did the second mistake. I wouldn't call it a mistake, but I decided to be a gsi, which is A. And my friends, if they're watching this, they're going to laugh so much because that was unbelievable. I decided to be a teacher assistant for a advanced finance class. And I just shared that in the beginning that I am a marketer and I don't have a super data driven background. And it was an advanced finance class which I'm going to skip the details. Life happened. I ended up connecting with the professor and it was, it was with this superstar professor, Stephen Atter. He's very famous. And I remember, literally I remember I had to teach a class for an hour every Friday. And I remember going to class to his lessons with the students, pretending I was like, yes, I know the subject. And I'm like, oh, I'm a pro. Study with them.

You're here to learn from me because I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah. FP and A. I'm an expert. I'm an expert. And I remember like learning the models and every Thursday I'm like, how am I gonna teach this tomorrow? But it was actually for one side. It was amazing because I did open up to students. They knew my background and they were even impressed, like, how are you doing this? I'm like, I don't know, we're learning together. It ended up that in the end of the semester they, they did learn and I did learn with them. And I think because we were learning together, we deep dive together. And I've heard from other students in the following semesters that the guys or the girls who came in with a very high level experience, they didn't teach the nuances and the step by step because for them it's so easy and they just think everyone knows. So it ended up being great for students to have someone that was learning with them, but for me it was a lot to take.

Yeah. Because you've got other classes and you're still doing recruiting and you're still getting 10 social event requests for every night of the week. It's not. If you were just doing that great, but you've still got all this other stuff in the background.

Yeah. And I thought, well, if I just do okay and not expect doing the best, I won't burn out. But doing okay with all the things in the agenda meant that I had to wake up at 7 and go to bed at 11:30 every day. And between 7 and 11pm I was working non stop. And yes. And Obviously the burnout came and it was very hard to navigate. But professors were amazing. They. They were so helpful. My friends were amazing. They. They shared their notes all the time. They covered me in some projects. I had help from the university also speaking to counselors. And it is a silent pain. But it happens obviously more often than we know. So yeah, I'm glad that is in the past, I bet.

And for those people who might be wondering, like maybe I'm starting to feel a burnout. I'm not sure what did it feel like? How did you know that you were having a burnout?

For me it is very tricky because joy seeing myself grow and I enjoy learning things and I enjoy knowing that the students that I'm helping are learning. This is amazing. So it gives a feeling of like, let's go, keep going. It's working. And it was funny because on that semester and I just said I was not an A plus student. All the classes in that semester I got straight A's. It is. It is because you don't stop. So the sign for me was the. I would say maybe compulsion in the sense of don't stop, don't stop, don't stop. It's a. If. If you've seen inside out too the anxiety going like this. But yeah, that was me. I remember for example in one exam that I was so passionate about the topic. It was pricing. And that is something that I do every day. It's something that I love. I remember I wrote so much that. And it was typing it. I typed so much that my wrist got paralyzed or something.

Like.

Yeah. So that was the feeling for me. The burnout was like. And also I made one mistake. I was late five minutes to a coffee chat and the person didn't take that well. And I started crying like the world was falling in the middle of the school. And I started like having hard to breathe. And that was the moment when I knew like you are working from 7am to 11pm you're five minutes late and that triggers a crying that you think someone died. This is not right. Right. Yeah.

So the proportional response is completely out of balance.

The A's were not worth it. The you know, money I got from helping. I mean the knowledge was definitely worth it. And I did save lots of money being a student assistant for a year in this extremely hard topic. But maybe could I. Could I have children Marketing instead of advanced?

Yeah, I know this I could do with my eyes closed kind of class anyways. Interesting. And you mentioned that you had access to like a really Great support network. But what tools did you use or what habits did you develop to start recovering from burnout as well?

Great question. So recovery first is stopping. I wish I could tell you guys that the moment I identified I had a burnout, I stopped. Unfortunately, I didn't because I still had a semester left. And you know, I didn't get a job admission. It took me 10 months to get a job. So I only stopped a year after I had the burnout panic attack episode. And it was extremely difficult. And I do say that one thing I regret was I wasn't able to because I was hurt, obviously, and I was just trying to survive. I wasn't able to connect with everyone I wanted to in my best self because I was hurt. It is something that it wasn't in my, I guess my growth path. But once I stopped, once I decided to take care of my burnout, I stopped completely for four months. I stopped looking for jobs and I stopped coffee chatting. I went back to Brazil and I stayed with my family and I just did all the activities that brought me joy, even if it's like the most, let's say childish activity like painting, watching Disney movies, taking some sun. And that's when I learned that even if you're the MBA or in the recruiting process, the only things, the only thing we can do is take care of ourselves and do our best. And the results, it's not in our hands. So we cannot get crazy thinking, when am I going to get a job? Is this thing is going to change. The market is not so good right now. This is energy that is going to drain you and it's not going to help anything. So taking care of yourself and doing your best with the boundaries, it's the most important thing.

I think great advice that it's not, oh, I'm going to take two weeks off and my burnout is going to magically disappear. Unfortunately, there's no quick answer to this kind of problem, but luckily you're on the other side of it. And let's talk a little bit about your recruitment process because it's been super interesting. Tell us what it was like to recruit for a job in a different country.

Wow. So it's obviously challenging. I am not going to sugarcoat this. Being a foreigner in the U.S. especially right now, it's not an easy task, which is why taking care of yourself is the most important thing you can do. But it was very interesting recruiting another country, especially the networking part, at least for me, as a Brazilian network exists. But it's more Subtle. It's more like you have friends, family, someone you know, eventually knows someone, and that's as far as your network goes. Here in the US network is essential. And I interviewed for 10 different companies. All the companies I'd interviewed for were through Network and most of them were actually through Cold Calling Network. So going on LinkedIn, finding someone that works for this company, sending them a message. Can we please chat? It does help if you have something in common, if it's, if it's an alumni or if it's someone who's in the same role as you in the past and people are willing to help. So that was definitely an amazing learning. Recruiting in a different country, it does take time, it does take lots of resilience. But I mean, in my case, I'm lucky to say that I landed a job that it was even better than I could ever imagine. So thank God and tell us a.

Little bit about this job because it's so cool, it's so different and it's, it sounds super. I mean, it's still kind of tech related, but it's such an interesting industry. Tell us about it.

Yes, with pleasure. So I am working at a company called We. They've been in the market for 10 years and their, their valuation, it's over $5 billion. It's big. It's in the heart of the Silicon Valley and they specialize in ethnic groceries. So think of groceries that you can only find in other countries like Japan, China, Vietnam. And they bring those groceries US and they deliver as an E commerce the next day to your house. So this company that was specialized in ethnic food, especially from Asia, they decided to open a startup within a startup called Mas Gusto. And now they are targeting the Latino community in the United States. So my role, I am the head of the Brazilian market, so I bring Brazilian products to the US Isn't that also.

That is so fun. That's so cool. What's, what are your favorite products that you're bringing?

Oh, definitely dosage. I mean, Ponjiquejo, the, the traditional from Mina Gerais is just so good. And, and that's the cool part. We can bring anything from fruits, from beauty products, from hard to find, I don't know, protein shakes that you can only find in Brazil. So it is super exciting, especially for immigrants. Right. Like, we miss our home, we miss our food. And being able to find it on the accessibility of your phone and getting delivered to your house the next day is just a dream come true.

Yes. We don't realize until we live abroad. How much we miss those little things, those foods, and even things that you're like, oh, it's not my favorite until you don't have anything. I miss it so much.

That's so cool.

Congrats.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm very happy.

And let's move to our golden buzzer questions. So what would be your golden buzzer insight for MBA students? Something that you think they should hear before they reach the point of burnout.

I have one book recommendation which is called Essentialism. What I've learned on that book is the advice that I would love to share is like, if you do everything all at once, you're not being efficient with your energy. You're not going to be great at anything. And not everything is essential, actually. There's just a couple of things that are actually essential. So I would say first, prioritize. And really, when we say prioritize, we're not talking about five things, we're talking about two. So prioritize. What is your goal? Where your energy should focus after you do your priorities, make sure to include relaxation times on your schedule. And really, because we underestimate the power of a walk, we underestimate the power of going to the gym or seeing your friends. And seeing your friends not to network, but to talk about a show, to talk about your personal life and doing. Put that in your routine. It will make a difference. That is definitely my advice, people. Let's, let's not normalize burnout. We don't need to go through that.

No, no, definitely not. And I think too, with the kind of culture that we've created with stimulation, and I don't want to call it dopamine addiction, but I think we're all guilty of, I have a few minutes. Let me watch a couple videos or let me scroll and we miss that time for our brains just to kind of wander and relax. And I think it's so, so great that you've given that advice because I know for me personally, that's been something that has helped me avoid waking up at 4:00am with, oh, I forgot all these things. Oh, my gosh, I have all these things in my mind is, okay, let me take a walk and, you know, give myself time to, to breathe. Avoid, like, feeling that overwhelming feeling.

Yes, absolutely. I, I, I don't have social media anymore. And that actually helped me a lot through my burnout. I decided to quit social media. During the burnout on those four months, I decided to quit and I, the only time I rejoined was actually now because I Manage a team and I need to know what are, what we are doing on our social medias. But I don't use it on my personal account. I created a job account that I can only log in when I'm working. So it's part of the job. Yeah, it definitely helped.

I do the same thing, like, not that there's anything wrong. And listeners who love social media, great, cool. I love it. But yeah, definitely. I think probably about six months ago I did the same thing and it's just I sleep better, I feel better, I spend less money, which I love. I think we just don't realize. And you know, my husband did the same thing and then he just got rid of a bunch of accounts so he added it back but with a huge filter and I'm happy.

Exactly.

Everyone can kind of find some boundaries that work for them. But I think limiting it is really helpful, especially at business school where you've already got so much going on.

Oh my God. For sure. I was just gonna add, I do know people who have social media and they know how to use it for, for their benefits. Like my brother. He doesn't follow anyone who doesn't talk about the topics that he wants to learn. And I have another friend who like, I don't go into social media to know what people are doing with their lives. I go to social media to get creatively inspired. There are some people who know how to use social media on their own benefit. Unfortunately for me, again, I have anxiety.

Someday I'll be that way.

I'm okay.

Yeah, I'm not. I'm a little kid. I have no self restraint.

Yeah, exactly. Me neither.

I spent three hours watching dog videos and then I don't know where the time went.

Oh my God. Yes. Yes. And the puppies and babies. I can't.

It's too tempting. And for our final round, if somebody is about to start their MBA at Haas, what would be your main piece of advice for them?

If you're starting your MBA at Haas, please take a deep breath and recognize how awesome this opportunity is. I remember my first day, my very first day. We were all in the auditorium and the person who was conducting the first day introduction, he was like, how are you guys feeling? And most of people were like this. And I'm like, are you kidding me? We're here, we're haas, we're in Bartlett. We made it. Are you not screaming and shouting and jumping of like joy and you know, and I think we should, I honestly think we should be. Especially because sometimes we normalize like high achievements or. And it's not in a sense, again, it is definitely not in a sense of you're not better than anyone. That is not it. But please take a moment to celebrate your own victories and what you've been through. And if you are entering HAAS right now, that is a big thing. That is a big thing. So please enjoy and take a moment to celebrate.

I love that. Yeah, everyone should have that energy going in just to get in. Going through the gmat, going through writing the essays, the interviews, the resilience and determination and being one of those less than 300 people that they choose, that is huge. That is so worth celebrating.

I love that.

That's great advice. Well, Becca, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. I think you've given amazing advice and insights into the has experience going through burnout. If that's the case with people listening or preventing it, hopefully for a lot of people. So thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to share?

Yes, I do. You did not tell me to do anything like this. But I do want to say, guys, if you're listening, Ellen is the best MBA consultant I've ever had. And trust me, in those three years, I had at least three. And she was by far the best. It is an investment that I believe it makes a difference, especially if you're dreaming about a specific school. I do believe that working with you, Alan, can make a difference. In this dream becoming a reality. Do that investment. It is worth it and she's a great person. You're not going to regret it. Thank you so much. Absolutely.

Thank you so much. Well, hopefully we can have you back sometime soon to hear about your Silicon Valley live and how you're thriving. I know that you're always a joy to talk to and a bright ray of sunshine. Thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you to everyone who's listening At Ellen Lawless Consulting, we love helping applicants craft standout applications and are proud to maintain a 98.9% success rate. So if you're applying to Berkeley, Haas or another top MBA program, visit our website or check the links in the description to learn more about working with us. We'll see you on the next episode.