004 - Effective Group Dynamics

Foreign. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hello.

And our guest today is the international women's groups coordinator, Ashley Jamison. Ashley, how you doing?

Good, thank you.

Awesome. We're so glad to have you on the podcast. Today we're going to talk through what a healthy and effective Pure Desire group ministry looks like. It's a very important and significant piece to really getting traction going for sexual and emotional health in the church. So, Ashley, thanks for being here. We're going to ask you some questions about that. First one is, can you just describe your role here at Pure Desire and how long you've been in that role?

I have two roles. I'm on the speaking team, which will be two years this September or October, somewhere around there. And then I'm also the international groups coordinator for women. And I've been doing that since I can't remember, I think about a year.

Has it really felt that long?

Is that it's been over a year. It's been over a year because I went to Salem last year, February and. Okay, so it's been over a year, a year in February that I've been doing that.

And what does that role look like as the women's groups coordinator? What is that role exactly?

That would be. I oversee all the women's groups globally. And what I really do is work with churches and church leaders and women's group leaders to help them establish Pure Desire groups in their church, help them run them more efficiently, help them figure out what they need. Every church is unique and has different set of circumstances and leadership on board. So I work with the churches directly to help them get strong Pure Desire groups going.

Awesome.

Yeah. Ashley, we're so glad you're here because it really does underscore that this isn't just a men's issue, that women have struggles of their own. Women are being hurt by the struggles of their spouse. And to have a staff member that's dedicated to the women's side of things, I think just communicates we want to help the whole family, men and women. So thanks for your role in what you do and in your words. Would you tell our listeners why are groups such an important part of the Pure Desire ministry?

Well, groups are important. The reason why I love doing what I do and being involved as Groups is because that's where I found my healing. And so a group is important for women or men to get in there, and it really helps them to see that they're not alone, that there are other people that when they read their answers, that they think nobody else could understand and nobody else would get it. Nobody else has been there. And then they hear other group members that struggle with the same thing. It just shows them that they're not alone, that they're not weird, that they're not broken beyond repair. And so the group dynamic specifically helps break down shame, but it also helps you to see that even when you share your scariest, darkest things with people, that they still love you and you gain that acceptance. And. And I feel like that's really where a lot of the healing comes from, other than, of course, the material and the tools and all of that. But that group dynamic of being with others in the same battle, and that's.

Such a freeing thing. I mean, I feel like we've all experienced that in groups, and it's just an unbelievable feeling of these people actually know who I am, all my junk, everything that's going on, but yet they still love me and want to spend time with me like that. We're almost taught that that's not what the world is like. So to be in groups like that is just amazing.

Yeah. And I remember even specifically when I was going through groups and there were some really, really deep seated secrets that I hadn't even really tried to draw, but when I heard other people sharing them, it just really made me feel free to share those things and how much weight was lifted off of me after being able to talk about those things and realize others that are wonderful Christian women had been through the same kind of thing.

Yeah, well, an addiction thrives in isolation. And in isolation, we're trying harder on our own, and it just reinforces that message of shame. Why can't I figure this out? But in community, we find healing and we find the answers as we listen to others journey that God applies to our own. So help us on this podcast as you kind of understand, you know, for some of our listeners tuning in, they've maybe been in groups for years, and this to them will be a helpful reminder. But I'm sure we have others listening that they're getting ready to launch their first group or considering a group. So walk through kind of the basics of what makes for an effective pure desire group. What are some of the parameters in terms of group size and meeting length, those sorts of things that really make for a good, pure desire group.

Well, for a good group, I know for sure from my own experience that the more you follow the guidelines and the structure, the better your groups are going to thrive, because it really is about creating a safe environment. So the material itself is anywhere between seven and nine months, depending on which group you're in. And then you probably would add another month, maybe for if it falls on a Christmas or going over the intro, or if you watch an episode of the Conquer series in your group. And so I would say anywhere between seven and 10 months is a good time frame for the groups. And you want to make sure to keep it at that because you want to keep people's traction going and you want to keep them motivated to get through the workbook. And then the timeframe itself is about two hours. So you want to schedule enough time to where you can get through the journal answers and get through the workbook answers without feeling rushed. And everybody has a chance to share every answer. And one of the things I hate to see is when somebody has an answer written out and it's maybe something they've never shared with anybody in their whole life. And. And then they don't have time to get to their answer, or the leader bounces around and that answer skipped for them. And that could have been a really good opportunity. So making sure to have enough time to schedule everything, you need to do the workbook, the journal, and then wrapping up. So seven to 10 months, two hours once a week. And then the ideal group size would be 4 to 6, and that, again, is one to keep the environment safe. And so people can form bonds and stick with that same group, but also to make sure that you have enough time within the group to cover everything. Those are just some of the basics of what the group looks like.

So what about group attendance? Is it okay if someone is only able to come once in a while? Or what do we recommend in terms of attendance?

No, the healing really comes from doing the work. And. And you won't be able to renew your mind or your spirit or your behaviors if you're not actively involved in your recovery and working every week. And so the group itself is two hours, but then you also should be doing 20 to 30 minutes of homework every day because you need to be proactive about your healing and you need to be working on it every day. And we always say that you're either moving forward or backwards. You're not standing still. So every day you need to be putting your mind on the right track of recovery. And so to miss groups is really detrimental to your healing. And there are other types of groups for that. I know that there are different recovery groups or different small groups where you can kind of come and go, but this group is different because the tools in here really do provide healing and renewal. And so you have to be there. And then it also breaks the safety when somebody's in and out of the group that, you know, if they miss the week where everybody shared their traumas or their stories, and then they're back the next week and they're kind of out of the loop, it just kind of starts to deteriorate the group. So it's very important to be there.

Yeah, that commitment has to be a priority. So in the beginning of all of our workbooks, people can find group guidelines, and we encourage them to read those, to follow those. And one of the guidelines that we do get quite a bit of questions about is the idea of advice giving. That we specifically say that advice giving is not allowed. And for a lot of people that have gone to other kind of groups, that might seem very odd. If someone said something that I can help them or correct them or tell them what to do, why wouldn't I give them advice on how to fix their situation? So how would you answer that question? Why is advice giving not permitted?

Well, there are a couple angles about that question that I could address that really show the importance of letting people self discover. One is that you never know the advice you give. It could be a trigger for somebody. So specifically in one of my groups, I had an older woman give a verse of encouragement to a younger woman. And you would think that that's pretty benign and positive. But that verse that she used to encourage the younger woman after the younger woman just shared all this trauma was actually the same verse that her mom used to use. And her mom was abusive to her. And that same verse was tied into there. And so it actually became a huge trigger trauma just right there in the group. And so from that point on, it was really hard for the young woman to be able to share any answers because she felt like the older woman was her mom. And she also felt like everything that she was going to share was going to, in her mind was going through the filter of, well, how is this older woman going to try to help me? And I feel like I'm just the broken bird. So that's one angle. But then also research suggests that when we self discover, dopamine is released. And so that motivates us to want to keep self discovering. And want to keep going. And a lot of times when people are told to do something, then it releases chemicals that make them want to fight, flight, or freeze. And so we don't want to shut people down. We want them to be able to keep feeling good and have that traction, to be motivated to keep learning about themselves.

Yeah. So, I mean, you talked about consistency in the group and that you need that you need people showing up in order to have that trust and that rapport. So what if someone isn't showing up to group or doing any of the homework? What do we do?

Well, then you would give them a warning the first time, and not so much warning as showing them that really for themselves, this is good. It's not just for the safety of the group. You want to remind them of the group guidelines, but it's not just about the safety of the group. It's also about their own healing. And so to keep somebody in group, whether they're the addict or the person that's been betrayed, you're really setting them up for false hope. If you let them just come and go, because they could get a mindset of, I'm in group, so why am I not getting better? Or, you know, if they. If they only went to three groups out of each month, and then they're not better by the time group is finished, then they could say, well, I tried peer desire, and it didn't work. But they really weren't doing all the work, and they were missing some key lessons, some key discoveries about themselves, and also that accountability each week of moving forward. And so false hope would be one, the other one would be, again, making the group unsafe. And so you'd really want to share that with them, that it's important for their own healing and their own renewal, that if they don't have the time and the money and the energy or whatever it is to invest in the recovery right now, then this specific group is not right for them right now. And they can come back when they're ready. But it's really good to encourage them that they should spend more time and energy and money on their recovery than they did on their addiction. And then if the behavior continues, then I would just ask them to wait until the next group starts, because it's not doing them any favors, and it's not doing the group any favors. And you'll get strong, healthy people out of the group that are truly transformed and ready to go on and help others if you really stick to helping them get their homework done and creating a safe environment. And another thing would be that with addicts, a lot of times they're going to aim for and do what they're told to do. And so if you set the bar low, that's what they're going to aim for. I shouldn't say they, I should say we, because I've been through the eight pillars groups myself. And so I know for myself that if you give me five lines to fill out, that's how many lines I'm going to fill out. If you tell me this is due for homework, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do just the minimum because I'm busy and I, you know, I'm. I'm an addict of, you know, recovering of my. Myself in certain areas. And so we want to set the bar to a place where they're actually going to achieve success.

I feel like too, when I was in groups, it really felt like I would get almost as much out of other people's answers and what they were processing through than my own work in my own workbook. You know, I would come and I would feel, man, I'm not really sure if I pressed into this enough. And then I listened to someone else share and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I got it. You know, I finally understand a little bit more about my own addiction, my own wounds. And so I feel like that's just like this hidden really benefit to being at groups so consistently.

Right. And that actually brings up a really good point of why it's so important to everybody be on the same lesson. Some groups like to never turn anybody away and have them just kind of come in whenever. And it's really important that everybody's on the same lesson because you get so much out of answering the question for yourself and then hearing four to five different answers to the same question. I can't tell you how many discoveries I made about myself or I was able to put a name on my trauma that I never even categorized as trauma. I categorized it as, I was a bad kid, I did bad things, I was messed up, what's wrong with me? And then when I hear other people give that answer and it describes my trauma when or my abuse, I'm able to put a name with it. And so it's important that everybody's on the same lesson during group.

One of the things I found effective in a group is if you have someone not doing homework is to treat it as a group issue first and not personalize it right away. So if I have someone who didn't do homework. At the end of a group time, I might turn everyone back to the group guidelines and say let's just remind ourselves of what makes for an effective group and kind of remind the whole group together why we do the homework. And, and then usually the individual maybe that hasn't done work, gets the message and if it then happens again, then you kind of have a foundation to go to them personally. And I always try to do it outside of group so as to not call someone onto the carpet or embarrass them. But maybe right after the group or even in a follow up phone call say hey, it's, you know, a couple weeks now, you're not doing homework. What's up? Do you understand how important it is? And, but usually if you treat it as a group issue and remind people why just what you've been talking about, Ashley, why, why it's so important. I find people want, they want to be healed. They want, you know, to be in the group to be changed. And if you're able to remind everyone why that's so important, I think most people get the picture and start to get with the program and do their homework and if they don't, they really are kind of self revealing. I'm not ready to commit to this to the level it's going to take to be free and they do need to wait then until they are ready.

Well, and too I think that you. Because there are times in my groups where I felt like if I didn't put as much time into the homework and I realized I'm actually taking away from the group rather than adding to the group that if I get all this self revelation from another person's answer, then I'm potentially withholding that from somebody else as I process through my own stuff.

So the nature of these groups, Ashley, people come sometimes in the midst of real chaos, real crisis, challenging, challenging situations and they can't help but bring that up as part of their maybe sharing about their week or going through their faster scale, their group check in. So what happens if a group member comes in crisis and you're just not able to get too much of the homework? Is that okay? Or how do you coach groups around that situation?

Well, part of being in groups is building bonds and being relational. And so if somebody is in crisis, you do want to have compassion and address the person in crisis. That's really what their group members are there for. But what we try to do is have them go through the journal on the faster scale first. So at least Everybody's getting that check in. And then you just kind of take a pause and say, we see that you're in crisis, so everybody's going to share their faster scale. And if you don't know what the faster scale is, that's in the journal and we'll talk about a little bit of the tools. And then have the person who's in crisis go last. And if it ends up taking up the rest of group time, that's okay to be able to address that person. Because dealing with these kind of groups, there are some really traumatic things that happen during people's weeks. Now, if the person is in crisis all the time, then they may need some counseling. And counseling isn't bad. I love counseling. I think everybody should go to counseling. It's really great. But about 30% of group members need counseling. Their traumas are very complex. Or a group is just not going to address all those things or get to all those things. They need somebody more one on one that can work with them. And so if somebody's in crisis all the time, then that would be when you would maybe want to refer them to get some counseling, either with the group or first and then come back to the group when the group is enough. But definitely if somebody has something come up, you know, that they just found out their spouse had an affair or relapsed, take the time to address that and be with them through that.

Yeah, when it's the unique situation, you want to take time to care, but when it's because becoming an ongoing, like, oh, they're in crisis every week, you have to guard the rest of the group's time and investment. Otherwise the whole group starts to feel like, oh, this group's just about, you know, Julie or whoever it is, that we're all just there for her. And they want to be invested in their own story. So you have to guard the group time by saying, hey, we know you're going through some rough stuff, but we have to get through our homework. We have to let others share. So coming back to the good of the group, I think is helpful. And then to direct that person to counseling is really wise.

And speaking of the good of the group, you know, we have so many groups that start. And then when people are in groups, they start to get that freedom and they start to understand more, and they start telling their friends about what they're learning. And then it's like, oh, wow, I think I want to be in that group. And so we get to a point where groups have been going for A while and new members want to join. So what? What if somebody wants to join the group after it's already started? Do we let people in or when is the cutoff to let people in?

I would say it's a hard no after chapter three. I mean, that's just a hard no. But even before chapter three, I really lean towards once the group is going and your people, your women or your men are established and they're rolling in the material, I think the earlier you can close it off, the better. If you're at that number of four to six, and then after that it would really be use some discernment and wisdom, have the leader meet with the individual and make sure that they're really ready, that they understand what the bar is, that you're totally committed, you're doing homework. Because the last thing you want to do is have somebody join the group, disrupt it. Even if it's a good disruption, it's still a disruption when somebody joins and then have them not really be committed and then leave again. And so I really would encourage the leader to make sure that that person understands that this is not just a drop in and out kind of group and that it's really important that they're committed and that it seems like it's a good fit because once the group's going, you kind of understand the people a little bit and can tell usually if somebody's going to be a good fit if the groups are closed. Because it does take time to develop the ministry in your church. And that can be a problem. When you have groups that are nine months to 10 months long, it's hard because you are going to have people who wait. And so some of the options would be to run a Conquer series and break that up into 10 parts so that you can buy yourself some time. Because it doesn't take as much training from a leader to just plug in a DVD and show something that's educational. We have plenty of books at Pure Desire that they can order. The Pure Desire stories for women, the Pure Desire stories for men that I suggest people start reading while they're waiting. And so a lot of times when somebody wants to get into a group, specifically at my church, I'll say, order this book, read through it, and then call me back when you're done. And a lot of times that alone shows me their commitment level. There are so many times I don't even get a call back. And we kind of have a running wait list. But it's better to have them wait to get into a group in the beginning and run the whole group than to try to just pop them in in the middle. Because, one, they're not going to be caught up. They're not going to be as bonded with the other group members. Our material is designed to kind of untie one knot at a time, and it's laid out in a certain order. So for them to just jump in, they could miss some crucial steps before getting into some of the really intense tools. And so it's just. It's better kind of for everybody to just do a group from the beginning. And then we also have groups online through PureDesire.org that if a group's not going to be available for another 10 months at their church, they could consider doing an online group through video.

Well, from a leadership level, this makes sense why you may want to try staggering the starting point of your groups. Because I know at a lot of churches, the traditional kickoff for all your small groups is September sometime in the fall, and then we just run them all year. And you might do that maybe with your first Pure Desire group. But once you have more than one group, it really is wise to try to have a group that starts in the fall and then another group that starts in January, particularly because the holidays are just a real challenging time for people struggling with addiction. There tend to be unique struggles and relapses that if you have a group that starts early in the new year, you get a whole new group of people ready to admit their struggle and say, I need help. And if you have even more groups, say you're now having three, four, five groups, you may have another group that launches mid spring, because then you're just always a few months away. That's what we tried to have at my church, was that we were always within a few months of another new group starting. So that if someone came because when they come in crisis and they're ready to jump into a group, you don't want to tell them, well, we got nothing for a year. You'll have to wait till next fall, because to them, that's an eternity if right now they're in the middle of. Of their crisis. So just to think from a leadership level about how could we create some staggered starts so that there's a group beginning roughly every quarter.

Right. And to piggyback off what Nick said, that's what we did at our church. The first group obviously has to get going and take a while, but, you know, just within a short three and a half years of running Pure Desire groups at our Church, we've had hundreds of people go through groups and We've had over 25 different women's groups between eight pillars behind the Mask and Betrayal and Beyond. And so we have Saturday groups and weekend groups and evening groups and daytime groups with childcare. And so just to give lots of options. And so it's usually not more than a couple months wait before somebody can get in. And so if you have that Conquer series, if you have a book for them to read, at least it's giving them something until the group starts. And then also the way our material is set up, it's very user friendly. And because it's a self discovery group and not an advice giving group, the leaders don't need to be counselors. And so sometimes there are people that can call and try to figure out how do I just get two of my friends in church together and how do we just start walking through this material? And if somebody can facilitate the time and the place and that they're going to just say, okay, we're on this page, then it's pretty simple. That's what I did at our church. And you don't publicize it, you don't invite the whole church, but if you can just gather a couple friends and start going through the material, that can be effective as well.

You reminded me, Ashley, that my wife and I were really blessed when we went through our first group seven years ago, that they had the men and women's groups at the same time and they offered childcare. And that made it possible for us and quite a few other couples to do groups. Because now it wasn't two nights of our week, it was one. And our kids were cared for and they structured it well because the women's groups were in one part of the building and the men's groups were in another part. And it was possible that I didn't know who was in the women's groups and the gals didn't know who was in the men's. Now there was some of that interaction around picking up your kids, but generally that was a common space enough that wasn't a big deal. But I just think that's good for churches to know. You can do it that way. You can set it up in such a format that men's and women's groups in different parts of the building could be meeting at the same time and have an option for childcare so that someone doesn't have that excuse of, well, I'd come to a group, but there's nothing for my kids, especially for the single parent or maybe someone that doesn't, you know, the other spouse is always working at that time, it could give them an outlet to be at group, even with their kids.

Right. And if churches have multiple services like our church does, then a lot of times we hold group during one of the services because then the kids are just in church. And so it's, you know, it's kind of like you feel good about going to group because your kids are in church and, you know, not stressed about that part.

So it's important to know that if you do the legwork up front, you can set it up to where no one's going to be left out in the cold. Because when people come to pure desire and want to join, they're looking for hope, they're looking for freedom, and you don't want to just kick them out and slam, slam the door. So, Ashley, earlier you were talking about some situations where people maybe trigger other people in group based on what they're sharing or any encouragement, maybe that that happens or takes place. So what happens if someone in the group is triggered by something that someone shares or an encouragement?

Well, if somebody's triggered, triggered, and it seems to be something they can't work through or it's becoming a problem, then really the person who is triggered by the other person may want to consider finding a different group or doing counseling, just one on one. But anybody can be a trigger. I mean, just a Bible verse, you say a color of hair, the way you smell, the way you, where you work. And so it's really important that we don't start having the person who was the trigger leave, but the person who is triggered, if it could be a good learning point for them, something that they renew their mind that say, okay, for me, I had an issue with certain color of hair because of my childhood trauma. And so if I was in group and I had somebody in group that had that certain color hair, it could be a good learning point for me to renew my mind that this is the same trigger, but I'm reacting different and it's a different outcome. And this person is loving and accepting, accepting of me. And it actually could help me renew and heal some of those areas where I had trauma. The other part would be trying to do a little bit of research as a group leader before you put your groups together. So, you know, family members really shouldn't be in a group together. If you have, you know, the woman that, you know, cheated with this gal's husband, maybe they shouldn't be in group. Together, you know, if you can avoid some of that stuff on the front end, you know, you can't with all of it. But there are some things where you just know. I don't think putting these two people together in group would be a good idea. And that's just a little question asking.

So in every group, the men and women are on a different stage in their journey. You've sometimes got the husband who's in a group and the wife isn't really facing much yet, or the wife is in a group and the husband's not. And that can create in couples a situation where when one spouse comes back home from group, they're being peppered with questions from the other. You know, what did you guys talk about? I want to see your homework. I want to read your book. What are you struggling with? Talk a little bit about what's appropriate for a spouse to share about their group when they come home or when they're being asked about how they're doing, what should they be open to sharing and what is probably not helpful.

They should not share other people's names or other people's problems. But yeah, I am totally guilty of this. When John first joined a group and I wasn't in group yet, I just, I read through all his homework and it was so traumatic. And really what it does is if, if John knows that I'm reading his homework, then when he's filling out his homework, he's not going to be very honest. And if he's not being very honest in his homework, then he's not going to get the full healing that he needs. And so I'm really hurting myself in the long run by looking at his homework and not giving him a safe place to process those things. And so aside from, you know, the trauma that it causes by getting in there and just the anxiety of snooping anyways, but really like the faster skill is a tool we use in group and that's really designed to learn how to become self aware, not just with sexual addiction, but with anything with work, with food, with social media, with parenting. It's just a self awareness tool. And so that's a safe tool to use with your spouse, whether they're in group or not, just to share your level of awareness and how you're becoming aware and maybe some changes that you want to make for the next week. That was really healthy for John and I to share because instead of, let's say, him coming home from work and just going upstairs or going away and getting a break from the kids, and then I'd become better, like, well, why does he need a break? I'm the one home with four kids all day. It was good for me to see I'm low on my faster scale and I'm exhausted. And then I kind of felt like there's something here I can help, I can be a team player. If he's exhausted, that means he's just one step above relapse, which would then just spiral the whole family out of control. And, and then I would be hurt. And so I really started to see something tangible that I could work with in order to be a team player and help him out. And sometimes he'll see me running around the kitchen and he'll be like, you're speeding up or you're binge eating, which is a lot. And so he can kind of point out to me. And it gives you this language that's a safe place to communicate because you're really becoming self aware and sharing it with your spouse. But homework is definitely out of the book. Is not a great idea to share. Maybe things you're learning about yourself. If you discovered something, a light bulb went off of your childhood or some kind of self discovery like that, those are great things to share and it actually starts to build some confidence in the relationship that you're able to start communicating and you're discovering things about yourself.

Yeah. So to summarize, you'd say you shouldn't be sharing other people's stories or their information. A spouse should not be reading his or her spouse's workbook. But they should be sharing faster scales together as a way to give insight into where they're at and then sharing those significant moments or light bulbs that could help deepen the relationship. That that's kind of the right parameters for what to share and what not to share.

Yes.

So along those lines, kind of a similar topic might be the guy or gal who's starting group at the very beginning. And the spouse is not real certain why they need to go to this group because they don't know the whole story. And so they begin to pepper them with the questions of I need to know everything right now. Tell me all of it. What kind of advice do you give to the spouse of how to respond to that situation? And why is it typically not a good idea to just unload everything all at once at the beginning with your spouse?

Well, there are a couple reasons. Especially if your spouse isn't in a group, then they're going to have no support and no safe place to process the Pain with the trauma. And so when you force something to come out that fast, it a lot of times becomes personalized and a blame game. And a lot of times if there's an addict that just joined group, they don't even fully understand where everything came from. So it's important to keep the relationship safe. So if there's an affair with another person or if they're involved with something illegal, those things are really important to come out right away because they're harmful to the person and the family. But other than that, it's really important to establish some support in a group first before disclosing things. And that's something, again, that we, we laid out in the workbook in a certain order. So we have something, we have tools that help them be able to create plans for recovery and relapse and, and communicating with each other. And so if both spouses would just get in the group and use the tools and use the workbook, it's going to be laid out in a way where they can start learning when it's appropriate to share things and, and when it's, and maybe when things shouldn't be shared, there should be a little bit more learning to do. If somebody is really adamant about a disclosure up front, we always suggest getting in with a counselor. It's just going to be easier on both people to have some direction and support. And so if a spouse is really pushing for disclosure, then we have counselors at Pure Desire, and that would be the place to go if it's something that needs to come out right now.

Yeah, and I've definitely heard from more couples where they'll say, you know, I asked for too much too soon. I got more information than I wanted. And when I look back, I wish I wouldn't have pressed for that. I've heard a lot more of that than the other side of, oh, why did we wait? And I wish we wouldn't have been patient. I rarely, if ever hear that side. So my encouragement to couples is always, even if it doesn't make sense right now, like, well, why should I wait? Why should I be patient? Why should I let him go through group for several months before we start to have a deeper, honest conversation about some of that, even if they don't understand, if they'll trust that process. And what I always say is, well, watch what he does, or watch what she does. If they're committed to the group and making their phone calls and doing their homework, take great confidence that you're going to be working with a spouse who's changing and growing and maturing, and you'll be glad for that. And then when you get that disclosure, when you get those answers, it'll be from a healthier place and a more open and honest place where if you keep pressing for it right now, they're going to do their best, but they're still stuck in their own rationalization and denial. You're not even going to get a very coherent or clear story, and there's going to be more later. And that staggered disclosure is more painful in the long run than the initial information itself. So that'd just be, again, my encouragement to couples is I always hear people say, I asked too much too soon. And I rarely, if ever hear, oh, I wish we wouldn't have waited so long.

Right. And trust the process is really what it's coming down to. Just trust the process that we've. We've seen works when put in place.

Yeah. And I actually saw that with John when he went through group, and I. We didn't have pure desire, you know, anybody we didn't know. There was support. There wasn't, you know, I wasn't working here. There wasn't a regional group leader structure or anything like that. And I, you know, I experienced that staggered disclosure, and what it felt like was living in a habitual state, state of just chronic anxiety because you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I did not believe John when he said, well, I didn't remember that till just now. And I just couldn't believe that until I started going through my own group. I went through betrayal and beyond, and I went through eight pillars. And then I'm like, oh, it took me going through that group three times to remember that I did that, or it took me, you know, and so I really, I really saw that. That is something that happens. You learn things as you're going through group and you're going to get a fuller, more complete story at the end of group.

Yeah. So obviously, groups are a central piece to what we do at Pure Desire. It's. It's really. I mean, we talked about it in previous episodes that we are wounded in Community and we're healed in Community. So groups are such a huge piece. And we probably have listeners right now who are listening to this episode and are stuck. They don't know what to do. So if you had any encouragement for any group leader, whether it's they're just starting out now or they've been doing it for a few years and they're burnt out, what kind of encouragement would you give to a group leader?

I would say for the group leader, the more you can just follow the structure, the more you're going to do for your group members. It really, it really is something where it's, it's decades of experience put together and it's, it's already been tried and we've already seen the results and what works best. And this is what works best. And that's why we calm our best practices and our group guidelines, we put them in our books so that you really don't have to try different methods when we've seen this produce really great results time and again. And so if a group leader can just stick to doing everything in the book, the journal and the workbook, the journal is just as important. It's not just a book with blank lines to journal your feelings. It has the, you know, the tools for recovery in it and the faster scale that we were referencing earlier. And so it's important to use all of the tools to do them all the way. And if you don't understand the tools from the description in the book, then we have regional group leaders that you can call and they will give you examples, they will answer your questions, they will help you understand why we use it. And so we never want any leader to feel like they don't understand something or they don't have support. We want everybody to feel confident to be able to facilitate the groups because it's really all in there. They just need to make sure that everybody's doing all the work, showing up at the right time, coming to group and then, and then it kind of does its own thing from there because it is a self discovery type group.

Awesome. Well Ashley, this was awesome. Thank you so much for hanging out with us and helping us out. Talk through effective group dynamics and you can contact Ashley. Actually she is our international women's groups coordinator. If you need to contact her, have questions about groups, you can do so just email her@ashleyjuredesire.org you can look her up also on our website. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with us, we'd ask that you subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also you can follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. Again, that's PureDesire PDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast, and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purchase.