005 - Double Bind & Commitment to Change

Foreign.

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, hey, hey.

And we're sitting with our guest today, Robert or Bob. Do you mind?

Bob?

Can we call you Bob?

You can call me Bob.

Bob Vandermeer. Don't try to spell that. Bob is a pastor and is one of our pastoral sex addiction professionals. Bob, welcome to the PD podcast. How you doing?

I'm doing well, thanks.

Right on. The sad part about podcasting with Bob is that you cannot see his magnificent beard. So hopefully one day we'll transition to video podcasts and you'll be able to see it. Yeah, don't be weird with the beard over there, please. But today we are going to talk about two tools that we use in most of our content, the double bind and the commitment to change. These tools can be super helpful if they're done right and understood properly. So Bob's going to help us talk through that today. But Bob, we're just going to jump in, but first I want you to just tell us a little bit about your background, your story and about your family. So just fill us in.

Sure.

Do I have a time limit?

It's your call.

Alright, perfect. Originally from Las Vegas, Nevada, born and raised there. And that's where I started my journey in life as a Christian and as a sex addict. So carried my own sex addiction with me, you know, out of Las Vegas into Bible college, out of Bible college, back to Las Vegas, started working at a church, got married and kept rolling with the sex addiction. And before too long, senior pastor and was done with life, done with marriage, done with ministry, was suicidal and just wanted to be done with all of it. So that's when I started my own kind of journey of recovery. Dr. Roberts did kick me out of his office the first time I was in there because I didn't want to take his advice. And it was, I think, a mutual lack of love at that moment, but came back around eventually. So basically I had to go and experience more pain before I was willing to take the advice of anybody. And I did that for a few years, was working two full time valet jobs. So, you know, 80 hours a week parking cars and throwing luggage and just deep in my shame and hating myself for everything that I'd done, hadn't done and so on. Eventually started Getting help, moved down to Argentina, actually, with, at that time, my. My fiance and her parents and started working alongside her dad, just getting healthy, wasn't really doing a whole lot, just there to get healthy. And eventually once my fiance and I got married, she and I started representing Pure Desire in Latin America. So traveling around there, speaking at churches, schools, radio stations, really whoever would have us, and sharing what sex addiction is, just kind of introducing them to a vocabulary that they're unfamiliar with, taking, trying to take the shame out of it and introduce grace and some competency into those environments so that they had not just the knowledge, but the tools and something to get their own conversation started of how do we even address sex addiction? So eventually my wife and I, we moved back up to the United States, but after a stop in. So I'm sorry, we were living in Argentina, then we were living in Santiago, Chile, and then we made a several month stop in Panama on the way up here to Portland. And so started a family here, started working more closely with Pure Desire as clinicians. And so since we've been here in the four years, we've had two kids. Our son Amadeus, who is three and a half, and our daughter. Yeah, he's a good guy. And our daughter Carmela, who is about 10 months old. So my wife, Rebecca, we both work at Pure Desire as a team, you know, working with clients and trying to help people with this area.

Very good. How long have you been on staff?

Well, I guess like national staff. I get four years since we moved up here. Prior to that, like I said, we were representing Pure Desire, so I don't know, maybe more of an affiliate type role, but that was for a few years also.

Very cool. Thanks.

Yeah, Bob, we're really excited about this episode because I think one of the most frequent questions we get is around this tool, especially the Double Bind people. Even when we started doing a podcast, I've had at least three requests of would you talk about the Double Bind? Help us understand what this is and what on earth it has to do with our struggle for purity or with sexual addiction. So because of that interest, would you just help us understand what is a double bind or what is the double bind as we use it as a tool and then maybe give us some examples of what it looks like or how it works.

Yeah, sure. You know, before I say anything else, I will make some comments about culture. And that may have to do with family, it may have to do with church. And I want to say that one of our biggest goals in working with sex addicts and spouses and families is that our families would be healthy and that our churches would be healthy. Part of that, though, is us being able to recognize things that need some health, some things that are maybe a little broken. And so I just want to be clear that if I say, you know, the church has taught us, I'm not saying I hate the church. I love the church. I just want the church to be healthier. If I say our families taught us, I'm not saying that our. Our parents or whoever raised us were horrible people, just saying that there may be some brokenness there and we need to address it to be able to move forward. So your question, what is a double bind? What does it have to do with all this, the double bind? I mean, the way that we explain it easily in the literature, quickly in the literature, is, you know, it's between a rock and a hard place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Doesn't matter which decision you make, you're faced with something that's going to be difficult.

Are we allowed to say damned on this podcast?

It's biblical, I think.

Well, okay, it's in seven pillars.

Yeah. We'll just have to put explicit on this episode on the podcast. No big deal.

Isn't it? I mean, it is biblical.

That's good. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not talking about donkeys yet or anything.

Okay, good.

So, you know, it's basically the idea that you're faced with a decision or you're faced with something and you're having a difficult time making the decision, because regardless of which one you choose, you know, the blue pill or the red pill, you're stuck with some challenge, you're stuck with some difficulty, and that leads to stagnation a lot of times in life, whether it's, you know, relationally or whatever else. So an example of a double bind would be, you know, hey, I know that I really need to talk to somebody about my sex addiction. There's like the biggest double bind that all, you know, sex addicts face right up front. Or I need to talk to somebody about what's going on in my family. But let's stick with the sex addiction example. So me as a sex addict, man, I need to talk to somebody, but I'm scared because if I choose to talk to somebody, in other words, if I give up this isolation, if I give up this addiction, if I talk to somebody, I'm going to have to face the fear of failure because I don't even know if there will be rejection. But I just have to face the fear of it. I have to face the fear that people are going, maybe I'm going to get kicked out of my church or my spouse is going to leave me, or I'm going to lose my job or whatever else that fear is there. However, if I don't talk to somebody about my sex addiction, well, then I'm stuck in isolation. I'm stuck in a pattern. I'm stuck doing destructive behavior that's not just wrecking myself, but my life, my marriage, my ministry, and so on. And so we come up against these decisions. I mean, that's obviously an extreme example, but maybe there's an example of, I know that I need to have a conversation with somebody about my eating habits. Well, because if I do that, I'm going to have to face the fact that I'm being unhealthy. But if I don't do that, then I'm going to have to continue to be overweight or not take care of myself and so on.

Yeah, I know when I went through Michael Dye's the Genesis Process, he talks about that, that anywhere in life we're stuck or not changing. There's almost always a double bind that we can highlight and find at the source of it. And I know for me, when I first met with Dr. Ted, he kept bringing up procrastination. And I thought, why are you harping on my procrastination? I thought we were going to talk about pornography. And yet he saw that that was one of my primary double binds. That the procrastination, the fear was of having to do hard work, possible failure, or not being able to do the project. But because I wouldn't face it because I would procrastinate, then I would avoid work. I would let others down and hinder their work. And often that would lead me to medicating that anxiety by looking to other things. So it was in seeing that I'm making a choice over this double bind. It's not just that I have this behavior I need to change. It's this double bind that I've been making the wrong choice about. That really was insightful in my journey.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, and I think too, as leaders in the church, it's really easy to find yourself in these situations. You know, when. When I was in pastoral ministry, I found myself wanting to isolate in order to maintain my public Persona that people knew versus being. I need to be honest and be up front. But then people are going to know that I fail and know that I'm imperfect and know I'M not this great pastor that maybe, I guess I assume that they think that I am. So I end up, you know, in this day to day struggle where it's do I isolate, do I stay away so that people still think I'm awesome? Maybe they even don't, but I think that they think I'm awesome or do I be honest and definitely not be awesome, but be real and be known by people?

Yeah. I think most of us grew up either in a church or a family where perfection was expected. And maybe our families never said we expect you to be perfect, but it was communicated. You better not mess up totally. And that, you know, we end up with the same idea. And so even if, say, where there's this double bind of double discussing something, facing something, confronting something once, then there's the double bind of doing it a second time. Because once we, you know, let's just say we come out and we talk about any issue with somebody, once we have to face that double bind and we do it well, then are we going to go back to feeling like we're supposed to be perfect or are we going to be able to embrace sanctification? Are we going to be able to embrace progress instead of perfection? And that's a pretty rough double bind too.

Absolutely. Okay, so a couple episodes ago we talked about the faster scale. It's a tool that we use. And if you have, if you don't know what we're talking about, go back a couple episodes and listen to that. But how does this double bind, this tool connect with the faster scale?

Yeah, so the faster scale, go back and listen to that episode. Definitely, if you're not sure what it is, but outside of the faster scale is recovery. And that's where we want to be, that's where we want to be living. And if we're living in recovery, then we're dealing with our double binds. We're facing these difficult situations and processing through them. We're doing the difficult thing. And if we end up coming up against a double bind and it could be a situation that we know we're going to face this week again, a conversation or even like taking our car to the mechanic, because what if we take it there and, you know, we got to drop a couple grand on it. I mean, you know, whatever the double bind is you're facing this week, or it could be something that is from the past that you're, you know, that's coming up that you're having to deal with anyways, all that to say whatever the double bind Is if we don't deal with it, then we end up moving out of recovery, oftentimes and moving down the faster scale. And so whether we move to forgetting priorities or we move down to exhausted, whatever it is, basically, if we're not dealing with our double binds effectively and relatively quickly, then we end up finding ourselves moving down the faster scale.

Yeah, it's realizing that those double binds tend to compound themselves because if I, you know, as I mentioned, the procrastination example, if I procrastinate long enough, it gets worse. And now maybe I'm up against a deadline, and so I'm speeding up. And then maybe at home I yell at my kids because I'm getting ticked off. Well, now I've got a double bind of I've made my kids upset, and do I admit weakness and apologize to them, or do I just keep doing my own thing because I'm too busy to pause and do that? So now you're kind of layering double binds. But it's just so helpful to try to unpack that and look at what's really driving my behavior. And I see that happening in groups. I think that's the real benefit of the double bind, is helping someone connect the dots of what am I feeling and how does it connect? Because often it's connecting to our past, to limbic lies about who we are that we picked up from early in life or childhood. And that's why that double bind has power in our life, Because I think we all would realize there's areas in our life where we make really good choices and we don't struggle with the double bind, even though someone else might. But then there's certain places where we just get stuck. And when we ask the question, why is this a double bind? For me, that's where we can start to connect back to lies or things that we've listened to from childhood, from our families that have taught us about our value and identity. And when we can help each other connect those dots. Oh, here's why I procrastinate, or here's where that fear of failure comes from. Here's why I fear rejection. Here's why I fear, you know, whatever the fear is, then we're really doing a work of transformation because we're not just trying to change the behavior this week, but we're seeing why the whole pattern of our life has led us to this challenge. And we're starting to connect those dots in a way that changes us.

And it requires self awareness again. Self awareness. We talked about that with the faster scale as well. That it's very important to have that. If you don't have that, if you're not able to find self awareness, then these tools are almost impossible to use.

Yeah. And I think even a relatively regular double bind that I face is with my spouse, Rebecca. Like, if I'm. If I'm doing something that I know is making her life more difficult, if I'm not willing to acknowledge that in her life, if I'm willing to say, hey, listen, I know that. I know that me going to do the podcast this morning means that you're home alone with the kids and that our son was a little feisty this morning.

We're so, so, so sorry.

Yeah, no, she'll listen to this later and then she'll. Okay, good. He thanked me live on air. It's all worth it. But, you know, if I'm not willing to say, hey, listen, I know me going to do this makes it makes your morning a little bit more rough, and I really appreciate the extra work you're doing. That's a double buy in saying that, because I'm admitting them doing something that's making her life more difficult. And what if she's like, yeah, thanks a lot, jerk. You know, then I have to face that fear. But, you know, that's something that I think regularly comes up with spouses, is that our own fear of kind of acknowledging their reality and our role in it.

That's good. So, Bob, you and Rebecca work with clients on a weekly basis and are trying to coach them through the double binds they have and how to see them recognize them. What would you say about the double bind? Can be so confusing. Where do you see people really struggle with this or get kind of hung up on it?

Yeah. I think that one of the things that we see the most is that when people go to look at the double bind, they find positive in one thing, negative in the other thing. And when they do that, and I'll give an example in a minute, but when they do that, they fail to see why this decision is so difficult. And so in other words, guys making phone. Or anybody making phone calls in their group. Yeah, I mean, that's a regular double bind for people. And so sometimes they'll say, well, okay, if I do make a phone. So we're saying, if I make a phone call versus if I don't. So if I do make a phone call, then I'll have somebody to talk to and it'll be great. And, you know, we'll really be able to connect and talk about life. If I don't make a phone call, then I'll be isolated. Well, by doing that, they're kind of seeing why this is a double bind. Because in the first instance, if I do make a phone call, you're also going to have to face your emotions, process through them, talk out loud with somebody, pick up the phone and say, man, I need help. So I'm going to reach out today. You're going to have to face all these difficult things, but by only finding the positive in it, I think it kind of keeps us from understanding why we're stuck. Yeah, because if it was like, if it was that easy to say, oh, well, yeah, look at all the good that comes out of it, then we would.

It's a good thing versus a bad thing.

Yeah. We would have already done it. And so I think that's one of the biggest confusions when it comes to the double bind is understanding that both of the outcomes are painful and. Or difficult.

Yeah, there's pain either way, and that's why we're stuck. Yeah, that's good.

Is there ever a time where you're in a double bind between two positive things?

Yeah, I'd love to hear an example, Trevor.

Well, I'm sorry I brought it up.

Moving on. Next question.

No, so I just. I feel like sometimes you can make a decision and be honest with somebody about something and that's going to hurt them and potentially maybe, I guess, estrange that relationship, strain that relationship, or you could not be honest with them or not talk to them about it and maintain relationship. And so both can feel positive in the moment. And so I guess that's what I'm thinking, something like that.

Well, I mean, an example, a few years ago, Rebecca and I were here in Portland and I was here actually. We went on the counselors retreat or the staff retreat. At the time, the staff was small enough that the whole Pure Desire staff would go on a retreat. And then we were also here, and I was going to go in for basically an ethics interview with our denomination to see if they were willing to give me my license back. While we were here, my uncle passed away and the funeral was going to be back in Illinois. And so I was faced with this double bind of go and support my family, you know, and be there with my family as my uncle passed away, or stay here and do all this other stuff that we, you know, flew up from South America to do. And if I went back to the funeral, then my wife Rebecca would. We didn't have enough Money for both of us to fly back. So she would have stayed here. And so here's a double bind where either way, I'm supporting family, you know, my wife and why we're here, or I'm supporting family at the funeral. And so that was one of those ones for me where it's like, either way, I feel like I'm doing a good thing, but I don't know what to do. And so what I ended up processing was in that my double bind was that if I say go to my uncle's funeral, I'm going to feel guilty about leaving Rebecca here, but if I stay here, then I'm going to miss something that I'll probably regret missing. And it ended up some other things happened. I wasn't able to go back, and I regret not going back. So if those other things hadn't have happened that made it impossible for me to go, then I would have gone.

I feel like in groups, so the groups I've been a part of, you tend to think that it is only that good thing and a bad thing. And so I feel like it's important to make that distinction, though, that you can actually have two good things that are potentially going to put you in a double bind.

And I think in most double binds, what you asked is really right on, Trevor, because there's something good and bad on both sides and it's just helping us to see maybe the underside. Because there's a positive to my double bind to procrastination, I can avoid hard work, I can numb out on entertainment, and that's fun in the moment. So it has a positive, but then the dark side of how it makes things worse and the work still there, and I'm avoiding that fear of failure and risk. So I think in the double bind, when you just help someone see the whole picture of why they're stuck, that's when you start to give them some tools to change.

Yeah, absolutely. That's good. Cool. So we were just talking about the double bind and we're talking today in this episode, we're talking about that in conjunction with the commitment to change. So the commitment to change, what is it? What's the purpose of it? And then talk us through those six questions that we see in the journals that are part of the commitment to change.

Yeah, yeah. So if the double bind is something that we're stuck on or something that we are going to be facing, then the commitment to change is a tool, in a sense, to help us process through that, to make ourselves accountable to moving through that, to facing that double bind and not being stuck in it. It's something that we do with our group. We do it actually in the group, during the group, so that the next time we get together or when we're making our phone calls, they can say, hey, how are you doing on that? We're making ourselves accountable. And so one of the biggest things I'd say with the commitment to change is that you make it practical. A lot of people when they're putting together commitment to change, again, I think coming out of the church, we make very lofty goals. And so early on in groups, you'll hear a lot of commitment to changes. Like, I'm going to pray more and read my Bible more, or, you know, this year, get really close to God. I'm gonna get really close to God. And you're like, that's awesome, man. I really hope that you can do that. But how are you gonna do that? You say, well, I'm going to read my Bible, you know, more this week. Okay, so one minute more than last week. So is that what you're shooting for? So to kind of boil that down and to help it get to a practical level. So through these questions, the questions are, what area do you need to change? Or what challenge are you facing this week? And so let's just go with this Bible 1. And so the challenge they're facing this week is that they really feel like they need to do more spiritual practice. So praying, reading the Bible, doing the sword drill, stuff like that, that is part of the program. Okay, so they acknowledge that. So what do you need to change or challenge? The challenge is that I want to do more of this this week. What will it cost you emotionally if you do change? What fear will you have to face? That's the second question. And so for. In my experience, for a lot of guys in particular, they quiet time, quote unquote, Bible time, whatever, is very challenging for them in their recovery. Because as soon as they sit down and want to hear the voice of God, they feel shame because that's all that they've been putting on themselves for a long time. And so there's a lot of guys that relapse around quiet time, which seems so ironic, but it's because they're sitting down and instead of hearing the grace from God, they're. They're hearing shame in their own limbic lies. And so what will it cost them emotionally if they do change? What fear do they have to face? They have to face that fear of sitting down with God and Facing their own shame as opposed to listening for God's grace. What will it cost you if you don't change? Well, it'll cost them to still feel further away, disconnected. The isolation that we experience in this isn't just from the people in our lives, but the way we feel it. You know, one of the biggest areas is even from God, even on secular assessments, that asks about spiritual consequences. So, you know, we recognize that those spiritual consequences are real. So then here's the thing. What is your plan to maintain your restoration regarding these changes? So here's where the, where the plan gets a little lofty sometimes. Well, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna wake up at 5am every morning. I'm going to read my Bible for an hour and then I'm going to pray. And it's like, well, hold on, what time do you normally wake up in the morning? Like around eight. All right, let's scratch that because, I mean, you're setting yourself up for failure in this. And instead of, you know, five days a week, why don't we just move it to one day a week? Let's just try that this week and see if this is going to be something that you can do, a goal that you can accomplish. Okay, cool. Well, I don't want to do it once. I want to at least do it three times. That's fine. So what days are you going to do it? Well, I'm going to do it on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Great.

What time are you going to do it?

So get real specific.

So I'm going to. And they're like, well, I'm going to do it in the afternoon. No, what time are you going to do it? I'm going to do it at 4:30. Well, why 4:30? Well, this is why. Great. 4:30 is it. For how long are you going to do it? And because if they keep any part of this vague, it's more difficult for them to accommodate accomplishment. And then what happens is when they get back together with their group and someone asks them, hey, how are you on your commitment to change? They say, ah, well, I'm not really sure what it was last week or it was better. But if you can make this something practical where there's literally a box you can check like this week on Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 4:30pm I'm going to read my Bible for 10 minutes and pray for 5 minutes. And if you can check that box, then it's so much more likely to happen. But if, if there's something that's not Practical. I mean, there's guys that they just say, I'm gonna make more phone calls. Then that's their commitment to change for a whole year. Well, clearly there's something that's not working with that. Yeah. So number five, who will keep you accountable to this commitment? Actually, in the Journal, in seven pillars, there are lines of names of people you're gonna write down. These are the people that you have said, I'm going to do this. Please ask me about it. And what are the details you're accountability, details of your accountability for this week? What questions should they ask? So again, give them real practical things. Ask me if on Monday at 4:30 if I did this.

You know, it's interesting with that. When I was in group, I had one of the guys who was in my group would always say, well, what questions would you ask me? So if you know what my commitment to change is, what questions would you would ask me? And I always thought that was really cool. I never really tried that. And then towards the end, I started to realize what he's doing is he's setting us up. Take a little bit more ownership of what we're gonna call him and what we're gonna ask him about and help him stay accountable that way. I just thought it was kind of a cool thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And I like to always clarify with that last question that that doesn't mean it's now your responsibility to check in with me because that's really backwards of what we want to teach with accountability. But it's just to help kind of the group know what they could provide. But really it's on me to make that phone call. And that's what I try to coach a guy or our groups to say. And for gals, also, that when I start a phone call, I bet 95% of the time I say, hey, this is Nick. And this week my commitment to change was. And I'll try to say it word for word like was in the Journal. And then I'll say, and here's how I'm doing, whether it's successful or I'm failing. And I find that even when I'm failing, it's that phone call that's the reminder to get me going. And so when you're really, really practical, like you said, Bob, and guys have something they can be very specific about, I think it makes the phone call easier because as guys, we struggle like, well, what do I talk about? I don't know what to say. And so I give them kind of that call and say, here's my commitment to change, here's how I'm doing, and then just see where the conversation goes from there.

Sure.

Yeah.

Univ. Is taking the car to the mechanic. I'm going to take the car to the mechanic this week. Great. What day? When? Well, I have to call first. Okay, when are you going to call first? Because the less detail oriented the commitment is, just the, the less likely they are to not succeed at it. Yeah.

So it can be pretty easy to maybe try to breeze through the commitment to change at the end of a two hour group. It's already been kind of long. Maybe the lesson you're tempted just to discuss the homework right up to the end. So what tips do you have for groups about being intentional and focused while filling out their commitment to change for the week and making that an integral part of their group time?

Yeah, well, at this point in the group, they've already gone through probably some pretty heavy stuff in their group. And so they should be able to find something from what they've just been talking about. And if they can't, then they probably haven't been very present. And so most of the time our commitments to change are going to be either out of that or they're going to be out of something that we know we're going to be facing. And so I'd say just even before you start doing the commitment to change, take a minute, have everybody do a breathing exercise just to kind of make sure that they're present and not thinking about, okay, we're almost out of here. Like, these are the five things I have to do on the way home or the phone call I have to make. Just to kind of, you know, get your feet on the floor, literally feet on the floor, do some deep breathing and just make sure that everybody's present for the exercise. Yeah, that's good.

So I guess kind of off of that, what are some common mistakes that you have experienced or seen people make when they're doing their commitment to change?

Yeah, well, one of them I think Nick kind of touched on with the phone calls. And you know, it's great that we make these commitments, but if we personally are not making phone calls, then we are not holding ourselves accountable. Again, the way that most of us learned this in the church, accountability in the church was I tell you, I have a struggle with something and then I rely on you to make sure that I don't do it. And that's not real accountability. That's kind of me pawning off the responsibility and consequences of all this. Onto somebody else. So I think in the commitment to change, you know. Yeah, make it practical. But two, if you personally are not making phone calls and connecting with other people, then you are not holding yourself accountable with these people. Sometimes some guys will say, well, you know, Joe called me yesterday, so I didn't make a phone call yesterday. Well, that's great. Joe made a phone call for himself yesterday. You just happened to be the person on the other end of the phone. And so, you know, it's your responsibility to make a phone call. Even if you hang up with Joe and immediately call somebody else, you know, that's fine. But we need to be the ones owning this commitment, and we need to be the ones making ourselves accountable. Calling someone and saying, hey, this is exactly what Nick. I think that's a great practice, Nick, to say, this was my commitment to change. This is what I'm doing to see this through.

Another thing I've seen in a lot of our groups is, particularly for guys that grew up in the church, is every week their commitment to change is spiritual. More time with God, more time in prayer, more time at church, which is all great. I don't ever want to tell a guy that's wrong, but when I have a guy that's like the fourth week in a row he talks about reading the Bible more, I really start to press in and look at what other real, tangible, practical factors in their life might be preventing that. And you find out the guy staying up till 1am watching TV or playing video games, and you start to help them see, this is a holistic exercise that some weeks your commitment to change is going to be physical, like about sleep or exercise or how you're eating. Some weeks it might be relational, like time with your wife or your kids. Some weeks it's spiritual. Some weeks it's about the group. It's about getting your homework done and making your phone calls. And so I think that's a mistake just to watch for. If a guy every week is stuck in one of those areas, because other guys might be, it's always something physical and to help them see, you know, your life is more than physical or spiritual. It's all those together. So try to encourage guys and gals to keep variety in their commitment to change. Because our life is always changing, and if we're only working in one area, we're probably not going to get very far.

Absolutely. More Frisbee is what they need.

That's right.

And hammocks.

Get outside, relax.

The thing with that too, though, is I feel like if you're actually putting in the work and you're doing the homework and you're actually spending time each week doing it, your commitment to change is going to be a lot different than if you're just spending 10 minutes a week doing homework right before you start. Because you're going to be more self aware of what's going on. You're going to understand where on the faster scale you were during the week and you're going to see, you know what, I understand where I was at this week. I understand some things that I need to change. So it goes maybe from the like broad spiritual thing to like, I'm going to serve my wife specifically this one way this week and I'm gonna do this. So I just feel like the more you do your homework and the more you're invested, the easier commitment to change maybe becomes.

Yeah, that's great.

So Bob, some listening, just what Trevor said might be feeling a bit like, this is just busy work. It's just another tool help those listeners, maybe connect the dots. How does this connect to the whole process of our sexual and emotional health? Is it just an exercise without a lot of value or how do you connect that to our whole journey here?

Yeah, I think part of the answer goes again back to the way that a lot of us were raised in the church or even in our families of spending a lot of time focusing on what we're not supposed to do. And you know, so these are the rules. Don't break these rules. So in the church, you know, don't sin, you know, don't break these 10 commandments. Like we spend a lot of time focusing on like, just don't sin. And you know, it's like that example of like, okay, guys, don't think of a pink polar bear. Oh yeah, okay, there's the pink polar bear. So, you know, I think the way that this connects to our emotional health is in the whole grand scheme of things. We're trying to help people move from unhealthy coping behavior. In this case, it just happens to be sex addiction. But there may be some other ones in there too. We're trying to help them move away from that so that they can face pain in life, so they can face their present reality of life, whatever that is. And we want to keep them from just staying focused on like, don't screw up again. You know, don't mess up again, don't make them angry again. Just don't do this. And so the emotional health part of this is as they begin to look out and look at other things that are healthy for them to do instead. You know, it's looking, instead of staring and staying focused on their shame, looking at what the grace of God has created opportunity for in their life for them to do. And that may be relationship, that may be group time, that may be doing something that is physically healthy for them, whatever it is. But the commitment to change is about doing something instead and not staying just wallowing in our own shame.

Yeah. And I've seen for guys and gals too, it helps create a feeling of momentum because beating sexual addiction or living in total freedom can feel like a giant mountain to climb. But if every week you've got that one goal, here's what I'm going to do this week, and if you achieve it, I think for some people in groups, it might be the first time in a long time they said they were going to do something and they did it. And it feels like something's changing here.

Creating momentum for this person.

Yeah.

Yeah. Very cool. So do you have, we'd like to do this with really all of our guests, but do you have any closing tips or encouragements that you want to give to anyone out there who's using the double buy in a commitment to change?

Yeah, I think these two tools are the most effective if you're using them weekly, if not daily. So the commitment to change, I mean, it's something that you can come back to in daily, just like the faster scale. Because all three of these things, the faster scale, double bind, commitment to change, work so well together. And if we're just doing this as a tool or exercise that we do once a week, then we're really not seeing the value of this in our life. We recommended to some people to actually get the colorful refrigerator magnet letters and spell out faster on the refrigerator. And every day as they walk by, they can just, you know, move the letter of wherever they're at that day. And it's something they can do with their spouse. Because, you know, the faster scale is not just for sex addiction. The faster scale is for us living in health, in restoration. And so, you know, something as simple as that, just to make it a part of their everyday life, that maybe with their spouse, they would say, okay, every Friday night we go over our faster scale together. We go over our commitment to change together. Talk about any double binds that we might be, you know, having. And that doesn't need to be more than a 10 minute conversation. You know, I think most, most guys, at least when you say, okay, sit down and Talk with. With your wife. They're like, oh, man, this. That means like two hours. And that's because of our expectation of it, as opposed to saying, well, let's just set a time and make sure that we can do this. It doesn't need to be, you know, this giant occasion because if you do it weekly, then you don't have all this build up from the last seven years of things that you've never talked about. So that would be. I think my advice with this is use these tools weekly, if not daily, and incorporate them into your life in an easy way. And maybe I'll close with this. I realize that I'm a lazy man and that if I don't make things convenient for me, I'm less likely to do them. So I have a. A broom hanging on my front porch. And because it's there, I sweep my front porch every day. If the broom was not hanging there, I would not sweep it every day. And I think with these tools, make them convenient in your life. So letters on the refrigerator, a reminder that pops up on your phone, whatever it is. But, you know, set yourself up for success in this. And if you are as lazy or procrastinating as some of the people in this room, then, you know, you need some help with that. And so just make it easy for yourself.

Yeah. One of those lazy man's tips I've started using is when we write out our commitment to change in our group, I'll take a picture of it with my cell phone because I found there are so many times I won't make a phone call because I can't remember who I committed to call or what I committed to do. It's like, well, later then I'll look at it, then I'll do it, and surprise, surprise, I never get around to it. So just having that picture on my phone that I look and go, oh, yeah. And I stay more active that way. So those are great tips, Bob. That's awesome.

Very cool. Well, Bob, dude, this was awesome. Thanks for being here. Thanks for your ministry and what you and your wife do and for spending time with us today.

Yeah, absolutely. Been a pleasure.

Right on. So we hope that this cleared up any questions or confusions on these tools. If you think Bob did a poor job explaining these, feel free to find him on our website. You can just look him up. That's great. You can find his info and just barrage him if you'd like to. And thank you for listening to the PureDesire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also you can follow us on social media earedesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.

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