009 - Digital Natives

Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about an upcoming event, Pure Desire's Redeemed Men's Conference, September 15th through 17th at Cascades Camp in Yelm, Washington. This will be a time to gather together as men where we will worship together, hear world class teachings, learn from experienced workshop speakers, and learn more about how to battle for purity in Christ. Come escape the noise and distraction of everyday Life. Join us September 15th through 17th and rest in what Christ calls you. Redeemed. To register, visit PureDesire.org redeemed We hope to see you there. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Is this thing on? It is.

Hey, it is on. I'm so sorry to all our listeners who have to put up with Nick's opening lines, but each week they are different. So congratulations on being unique.

I'm running out of material though. I need a few suggestions. If listeners could send some in, I'd appreciate that. Yes.

Yes, Nick, is it Nick? Suredesire.org send your intros for Nick. Okay, well, let's get to why we're excited about this episode today. We're sitting here with a couple cool cats, Brian Roberts and Heather Kolb. Brian is our operations director and has been with Pure desire for about 10 years. And Heather is our neuroscience specialist here on staff. Both of these guys are also on our speaking team, but today we're not going to talk about their speaking team role. We are excited to announce that they are now both authors of a book and we will get into that in just a minute. But Brian and Heather, we are excited to have you on the PD podcast.

It's good to be here.

Thanks.

Awesome.

Well, okay, so today we're going to talk about this new book by Brian and Heather that they've authored called Digital Raising an Online Generation. So we just want to talk about the resource, get to know a little bit of the heart behind why you guys are writing this resource. And really we're trying to get people to see that they need this resource, that this needs to be a conversation that started. So let's just start with this. Can you guys give us just a summary about what this book Digital Natives is about and where the idea for this resource came from?

Sure. So basically, Digital Natives, the goal is to answer the question, how can we help this current generation deal with the issue of Internet pornography and really have healthy Internet use. And so that kind of started with me, I think, and I started looking at a lot of different resources that are available and found. There's a lot of missing pieces. I think. I think what's out there today doesn't answer the question of sort of the generational gap where like my kids, I have a 11 year old and a 15 year old, they don't know a world without the Internet and so they would be considered digital natives. And whereas I grew up, you know, the Internet entered my life in 1992 in high school, and even then it was nothing like it is today. And so this is a, this is a challenge with the Internet. You have parents who are trying to parent kids that their world is vastly different than the world that, that we grew up in. And then I think the other. There's not a lot of resources that address that. I think the other challenge too is very few resources that I've read speak to the issue of the purpose of the Internet and how it works. Most people would identify the Internet by how they use it. So, like Nick, how do you use the Internet in a given day?

You know, I'm still old school. It's a lot about email, primarily email, maybe to check up on a few sports scores occasionally. It's the way I get news and then catch up with family and friends on something like Facebook.

Right. And so that's what most people consider the Internet is their social media, their entertainment, communication. But really the Internet is really nothing about that. That's what it delivers, but it is built for the purpose of advertising. It is the best advertising that the world has ever known and may ever know. It's very good at it. The side of that that's a little challenging is how it affects us socially. Because it's targeted advertising and because sites want to keep you on as long as possible, there are some really interesting social and mental side effects that happen. And so that's why we brought Heather on, because she's our, she is our resident brain nerd. And so we said, hey, can you be involved in this process, writing the book? Because there's so many things that we see how this is affecting us environmentally.

Yeah. So Heather, what is your role in writing this book? What perspective are you bringing to the resource?

So my role is to mostly draw out how the Internet and online use is affecting kids with their socialization skills, research really how it plays into their psychological and mental health, and really how, in a lot of ways, it's kind of undoing some of these fundamental skills that People have to have. And we have a whole entire generation that is being raised without these skills because of the Internet. So that's kind of my role.

Yeah.

And I mean, honestly, I'm super excited to read it. I'm super excited to finally get a copy and start doing it, because I. I know that my kid, who's only six months now, will, for his entire life, be a digital native. Like, he will know. He will never know a world without the Internet and without everything that's going on. So I'm looking forward to this resource, for sure.

You know, with any challenge that's out there, there's always a pendulum swing. So, like, because the Internet's everywhere and everything, some parents or people listening to this podcast might be feeling like the best reaction is just to try to shut down the Internet and not let their kids on it. And they have a really kind of a fear of their kids being digital natives. And so their response is to try to just, like, eliminate the Internet or keep it from their kids. What do you say to a parent that's maybe in that place of they're swinging to that extreme of, we're just gonna keep our kids off the Internet?

Yeah, that. That's a question that probably at most events we get. I get more than any other question is, how do I. How do I get my kids off the Internet? And unfortunately, the answer is, you don't. There's always access for. For the Internet somewhere. And so what our goal and a big chunk of the book that we're writing is how do we have healthy Internet use? And so I would probably use the analogy, my daughter, who's 15, just got her driver's permit. And so we are. My wife and I are very slowly but surely getting her on the road. And we'll be praying for you. Thank you. Yes. It's a little scary at times. And, you know, I could have the response when she got her driver's permit of, you know what? That is so dangerous. People are injured in car accidents all the time. This seems like a really bad idea. I think we are just going to not let you drive. And, you know, when you're 18, you can. You can figure it out when you're on your own. And I think that same analogy applies as we've raised our kids. We've been. My wife and I have been very intentional about making sure that they are a critical part of deciding how we use the Internet. So when we look at filters and accountability software, they're a part of which one should we choose as A family. And how are we going to use it as a family? Because my goal, I have, you know, my daughter's probably in the house for three to four years tops. And so whether it's her driving or Internet use, I have three more years of influence on her where I'm directly influencing her and my son, you know, a few more than that. But I want to capitalize on that time and make sure that I'm using it as best as possible.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I have four kids, and it seems like if as parents, we choose the route to say, well, we're just going to keep you away from the Internet, then they're going to learn about it somewhere from someone else. And it actually takes away my opportunity as a parent to be a part of their training and to be able to give them healthy guidelines and standards and practices so that avoidance out of fear isn't helping in the long run. It's going to hurt them. And I appreciate the way you guys are bringing that up. So, for our listeners, help us understand, who's this book for? Is the book for the kids? Is the book for the parents? Is it for the church? Is it for all the above? How would you describe the audience of this book?

So we feel that this book is for parents and aunts and uncles and grandparents and youth leaders, pastors, counselors, teachers. Really anybody who would have influence or mentor this younger generation, they need to know this information.

So it's not just for parents. It's for anyone that will be working with kids growing up with the Internet generation.

Yeah, absolutely. If you have an influence on a youth, this is something you should read. And I think in my own process of writing the pieces that I wrote, and we've done a lot of research, there's been some really interesting things to me. And I looked at the Internet. It sort of changed how I perceive the Internet and how I view targeted ads, how I view social media. It does give, even parents, I think, a different look at that.

Very cool. Well, okay, so some people who know what we do, what pure desire does, where a sexual addictions ministry, when we write a resource that's aimed at talking to the younger generation, I think sometimes some people would say, you know, I really do know that pornography is there, is available for them all the time.

But.

But then there may be some people out there who don't realize the presence that pornography has today in the younger generation. Can you just speak to that? That presence?

Yeah, you know, a lot of people will say, well, how many you Know, how many kids do you think on an average are struggling with the issue of porn by the time they leave high school? And I would say 100%. Like it's not even, it's no longer a question of when with your kids. It is a question. I'm sorry, it's not a longer question of if. It's a question of exposure is going to happen. It's going to happen. And so, you know, we talk a lot about impure desire and in this resource we touch on this too, about healthy sexual education and also healthy Internet education. So at age 6, really, you should be teaching kids about God's design for sexuality. Where do babies come from? How does my body work and age appropriate, of course. And there's a lot of great resources for sexual education that we endorse. But also the Internet, like what can I expect to see and why is pornography there? What does it benefit? Who is it for and why is it developed? And so those things are really key. Knowing that your kids are going to see it. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. And the goal is what is their response going to be? I think probably one of my favorite stories about that, that is in our family, I guess it's not my favorite, but favorite one to tell. My nephew encountered Internet porn on a friend's iPhone or ipod on the bus at age 7. And you know, that's, that's a very young age and it doesn't make any sense. And fortunately, the very first person he talked to about it was his dad. And I believe that's because his dad and him had been talking about the human body and sexuality for over a year. So it felt like a normal conversation to him. And even though it's unbelievably unfortunate that that is his first exposure to pornography at such a young age, thank goodness his dad had already talked to him about it. Thank goodness he went and talked to his dad because he's likely, if he's like most of the kids whose parents don't talk about human sexuality, likely to talk to a friend or someone else.

So let me ask you a follow up question then on that. What is the appropriate age to start that conversation with your kids?

We would say age 6 or as soon as they start asking questions. My daughter was a little younger, she was the firstborn and had a million questions. And at age 5, she wanted to know where babies came from. And so we got a book and we started going through it. I would recommend that you start educating with the opposite gender. So my wife has been educating my son up until about two years ago when puberty is getting close. And now it's my turn. My daughter, until she was about nine, we read through all the sexual education books and then my wife took over after that. The goal is that it's a normal family discussion. Not that we're gonna bring it up every meal, but like, it's not a weird thing when someone asks question about human sexuality, the room doesn't go silent and everybody goes, oh my gosh, I can't believe you just said that. But that it's a normal conversation and that my daughter is comfortable talking to the opposite sex about sexuality. I want that to be a normal conversation for her family as well, and my son as well.

Yeah. I think one of the temptations we face as parents is we want to believe that if we're raising our kids right and taking them to church and doing good things, that our kids won't struggle. Like, well, this isn't. Not in our family. And. But when we do that, we're kind of sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring what's happening out there. Because in some of the very best families, the struggles get hidden in the families that think, oh, we're perfect and don't talk about it. It gets just like you're saying, shoved under the rug. And what I'm excited about this book is it sounds like you guys are really going to give parents and educators and grandparents the tools to open up these conversations, which is so important. So what are the obstacles or difficulties that you guys see in trying to lead the younger generation into emotional and sexual health? Because those aren't conversations everyone's having right now. So what challenges or obstacles can people expect to face?

So there's definitely a concern among scientists today that kids are using online communication more than they're using face to face communication, which is inhibiting a very strong socialization skill that they're going to need. In fact, it's one of the ways that we develop, all of us develop empathy is through face to face interaction. So, for example, when I say something, when I'm having a face to face conversation with someone and I say something that perhaps unintentionally hurts their feelings, I know right away, based on their facial expression and the tone of their voice, that I've done something wrong and I need to fix this, and I can right then and there, start to work to restore the relationship with online communication. We don't have that. We don't see that. And again, The Internet was not designed to teach your kid empathy.

Yeah. So we're creating a bunch of Internet trolls because it's easy to just say what you want, however you want to whoever you want, and you don't have to be there to see their reaction.

Or how it hurts people.

Exactly.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, an emoji is not the same. You can give somebody a smile and it's a world of difference.

Yeah. You can't communicate tone on it. You can't communicate context, anything. Yeah, it is. And it's interesting because that's not just a problem with kids today. I think that's a problem with the millennial generation as well and the older generations who are diving into this online age. And so I think it's a good thing to address for sure. In everyone's life.

Yeah. And you know, on that same tone, we talk extensively. I mentioned right up front too, that the Internet is the best form of advertising that the world has ever known. Part of why that works is how the Internet works. And we talk about that a lot in that the Internet, if you're going to advertise, people buy on emotion. In fact, about 40% of online sales are based on an emotional purchase. When they've done studies, Internet companies know that, and they want to make you very impulsive and they also want the focus to be you. So when you look at how that affects us as a society, and like you said, the more not just Gen Z and millennials are online, but everyone's online, the more isolated we become. Because when we have self focus and we're impulsive, communication is usually not the best. It's not the most empathic. We're really not thinking about other people. And so we talk a lot about that in the book too, how that's one of the obstacles, as Heather mentioned, we have to overcome is the Internet is literally training us to be that way.

So you guys mentioned this challenge. This obstacle of this generation may be losing empathy, the ability to really relate to people. I imagine some parents might be listening to this and they're thinking, but I have better conversations with my teenager through text than face to face. They're more willing to share or be open. What would you say to that parent that's finding, well, I can communicate through text, but they're kind of. Then they realize, but I'm reinforcing that lack of human communication and empathy. What about the parent that's maybe stuck in that place a little bit?

I would encourage them to give it a try to put your cell Phone down and talk to your kid face to face and be intentional because it could be that they feel that they have better communication, but they haven't really tried or, you know, put the effort out to maintain that face to face connection. It really is one of the things that parents. Well, and like we've been talking about everyone, we learn emotional response through face to face interaction. And so if your kids, as a parent, if your kids never see what it looks like to be sad or frustrated or even happy or excited, then they're not learning again these important tools that they need in order to effectively communicate to throughout their life.

Yeah, I think it's important to say that text messaging is not bad. Online stuff is not bad, but there is a potential opportunity to mask vulnerability. Like, I can hide behind my words if I'm not sitting in front of somebody where I otherwise wouldn't be able to if I was sitting, you know, with anybody having a conversation.

Yeah, we, you know, and we point that out right off the bat that I think another good analogy with the automobile is that, you know, the Internet, as the automobile was for the 20th century, is really the biggest invention we've had in the 21st century, is radically changing how we do life. I don't think people are willing to give up their cars now, whether they're, you know, we have car accidents or things that may have come along with it or that are negative. It's simply that it's a fact of life. And how do we, how do we deal with it positively. We text message our kids all the time. There's amazing amount of safety in the fact that knowing I could get a hold of my kid right away. Whereas when I was growing up, my parents were like, well, he's around somewhere, you know, so I mean, there's that piece that's very good, but I think it's the fact that it doesn't replace it. You know, like when we walked in here today, Trevor, you're like, okay, everybody turn off your cell phones. Because, you know, we all recognize that this podcast is important and we don't want to be interrupted by that. And so that's, you know, same thing is true at our dinner table. Like, if I'm having a face to face conversation, but I'm holding my phone in my hand that says to you, I'm going to talk to you. But you know what? You're really not as important as this thing right here, which is somebody that isn't right in front of me and really isn't a part of this Conversation. So I think it's about, yes, these tools are amazing. They're great. They're not evil. That's not the point. But they don't replace the work that should happen normally within a relationship.

Yeah. So then, because what you're doing is you're presenting these obstacles or these, I guess, perceived obstacles to connecting with the next generation. So what are some ways to overcome that? If we're talking about text messages and we're talking about having your phone on you all the time, if we're talking about consistently going through social media, whatever it may be, how do we overcome. How do we hurdle those obstacles in order to get to the next generations?

Yeah, that's a great question. And there's a lot of pieces to that. I mean, some of the main ones that we identify. Number one, expect your kids to struggle. That's just the bottom line. Expect that you are going to have to be intentional about, like I said, cell phone usage and having rules that are relational rules. They're not punitive rules. Like, okay, you brought your cell phone to the table, so now you've lost it for a month. I mean, maybe if it's. If it's a. It's a real chronic problem, that's an issue. But these rules are about relationship. I'm much more interested in saying you've brought your cell phone to the table. Can you explain to the rest of us how you think we feel about that? And, you know, even though some of these things are not inherently bad, they can become bad. I mean, obviously pornography doesn't really have any good purpose. But like my son, a great example is Minecraft, and it's a great. I think it's a great game. It's kind of for those who aren't familiar, it's like digital Legos. I mean, it's. He's got an engineering mind, and so he spent hours on this and. And so we have limited screen time, mostly because a couple of times he'll be on there more. My wife will say, hey, son, can you stop for a moment? Empty the garbage. And he'll say, not now, Mom. And then we all have to stop as parents, which is something we don't want to do because we're busy too, and we have to stop and say, okay, okay, how come Steve, who is the main character of Minecraft, how come he is more important and he's in a digital world and mom is less important? Let's talk about that. So I think having really pragmatic, relational approaches to how do we use these Things and what are the rules? And that kind of leads into the next thing that we tell people is you have to have family values. The family has to agree upon. What is our value. We value people in person more than we do online. We value time together and good conversations. You know, some of those things. The other one that's really big and really tough is parenting by example. In the process of writing this book, I was actually writing something, and I was in my office, which is in my bedroom, and my wife is texting my daughter, who's in the next room, like, honey, I'm actually writing about this right now.

Could you.

Do we need to take that out?

Maybe. I don't know. Maybe I should. Sorry. But, you know, we're not perfect. We're not perfect parents, but we do have to lead by example. And it's really important when we recognize that not to say, oh, my gosh, I've messed up.

Get it right.

Say, wow, okay, yeah, mom didn't really think about that. I could have just walked over to your room, knocked on your door. That would have been. That violated our family value. I'm sorry. I should. You know, I should do that. And I'm. I'm just as guilty. I've done that same thing, being my one room, texting somebody, another one.

Yeah.

And I. And I think the other one that has really been helpful for us is to let our kids be the experts. We, as I mentioned earlier, they are part of choosing the online software filtering that we use, deciding, is that appropriate? Is that not appropriate? My son is very sensitive to foul language. And so we're watching movies, you know, we're like, okay, sorry. Yep, we should shut this movie off. That's the third time we've heard that word. We don't. We don't need that.

You shouldn't show Die Hard. I don't understand why you do that.

Yeah, I know. And then I guess the last thing. And there's a bunch of other things, but one other really key thing is the mentorship process. Along with educating your kids about sexuality, we need to be mentoring them. And two fabulous resources, I would point out, because the pure desire resources is behind the mask for young women and Top Gun for young men. These are not sexual education resources. They are mentoring resources where we say, now that you understand your sexuality and who God created you to be, how are you going to steward that gift of sexuality?

So what I'm hearing, though, is it's not just a one conversation and you're golden for the rest of this kid's.

Life.

It's a kid consistent commitment that you as either a parent or a leader or a mentor are making and staying faithful and intentional with that throughout.

Yeah, yeah. And unfortunately, parenting is really hard. Work on finding out. Yes.

Yeah. It's amazing. As we try to develop these healthy habits in our home, it does cause us to look at as the adult, what healthy habits do I have? Because if my kids are saying, dad, I thought there was no screen time, then I'm justifying why I need screen time. But they don't get it. It does make you pause and go, what have I allowed to become maybe normal in my life that shouldn't be? Because I need to model for my kids and I need to be present with them. So for those that are going to read this book, what will they learn about fostering vulnerability and healthy habits? Because maybe for some listeners they feel like, I can see what you guys are talking about and I can see why it's good, but you don't realize how far away from that we are. Like I just don't know how to do that in my home. What are they going to learn? What kind of steps and habits would you talk about them developing?

So we will have several different types of plans or programs that they can implement in their home. And like you said, if they're a long way from that, it might be that you focus on one thing at a time because you can't fix everything overnight and you can't fix everything at once. But even simple things like establish areas in your home that you designate as cell phone free zones, that in this area we don't bring our phones, we don't use our phones when we're in here. It's because it's all about face to face communication and building relationship. The other things are which is really hard again because parents, you know, if you set that as a family value or that this is something that we're going to try to do, then you have to obey that as well. You know what I mean? Set that standard, be a good model for them. Other things, and this one is really, really hard for people, but it's one of the very common things that you read in the research is to establish boundaries, healthy boundaries for your kids, such as, you know, no cell phones in the bedroom, especially at nighttime. Because kids who Teenagers need 10 hours of sleep a night, aren't getting it because every time that their phone dings, buzzes, whatever it does, up until mid hours of the morning, they're waking up, they're checking their phones and they're not getting the sleep that they need. In fact, some parents are probably guilty of that as well. So it's establishing right here, it's establishing healthy habits, not just for our kids, but for us too. And really putting a priority on, you know, where does our cell phone use or our Internet use fall in what we determine is healthy lifestyle choices.

Yeah, that's so good. And it's interesting because I think when you talk about mentoring, when you talk about discipleship, when you talk about parenting, I think a lot of people assume that it's a one way relationship as far as what's being learned and developed in life. And I haven't been a parent for very long, but in mentorship and discipleship, I realized I gained just as much, if not more than who I'm mentoring, who I'm parenting, who I'm discipling. And so I guess for the listeners out there who are maybe thinking like, gosh, there's just so much work I'm going to have to do, like, hold on, it's gonna be okay. God's gonna teach you some really cool things through it. And I think that's important for us to remember for sure. Very cool. Okay, so with discipleship, with mentorship, with parenting right now, a huge thing in our world, probably the biggest thing right now in our world is social media. If you're not on it, you're in, you know, the minority. And so with that, and this is a great question because I think that I actually want, I'm like looking for, forward to your answer, kind of like biting my teeth just waiting. But what does it look like to disciple, to mentor, to parent your kids in this social media age?

Yeah, that's a. Social media is a huge piece of it. And again, it's this idea that social media is a tool and it has its function. But also you have to understand that you are the product of that tool. There's an advertising agent behind it that wants an advertisement, everything they possibly can about you so that they can advertise to you. They also the sort of twist on that that's different from social media and just like say Google search, because Google knows everything about us and they advertise to us all the time. The difference with social media is they not only want to know everything about you, but they want to keep you on their site as long as possible. The longer you're on that site, the more ads you're going to see and the more ads that you'll see that are targeted directly at you. So in light of that, we talk to our kids about, hey, it's really cool that we can go see my uncle and aunt little a ways away or they're actually my wife's family lives a ways away. It's great. We can see their photos and stuff, like instantly what they're doing this weekend. That is really cool. We should call them this afternoon or do a video chat. So we're reinforcing this idea of face to face conversation, or at least over the phone conversation to tie through social media. The danger in social media is when you begin to replace your normal emotionally healthy relationships with believing that social media is an emotionally healthy relationship. When you spend your time saying, how many likes that I get for what I posted there, how much, you know, did people post on my comment? And we start to get this back to this self focus piece and we are only looking at ourselves and, you know, Facebook, it was interesting. Some of the studies that we looked at. Facebook is doing the largest social experiments ever known to man. I mean, people from all sorts of universities are flocking for free to Facebook to evaluate the results, to say what this means. Because in a normal survey that psychologists or sociologists will do, if they have 100 subjects, that's huge. Facebook has millions. If you want to know, have I been the subject of that? If you've had a Facebook account, the answer is many times, a lot. So they're altering the world that you see through your feed to gain what they want from you. And that's okay so long as you know it and then you know it's not real. There's nothing wrong with going to a movie, seeing some sort of sci fi fantasy. But if you walk out of the movie thinking that's real, you're gonna have some problems. You know, you might want to come.

To Pure desire counseling.

Yeah, you might want to come to Pure desire counseling. I remember watching, I think it was one of the Matrix series and it was like so cool. And I got out of the theater and I went to get in my car and drive off and I was driving like a madman because like the movie's so fast. And action. Wait. Okay. No. I live in the real world. Things move at a different pace. There's real people involved. So I think with social media, the real challenge is how can I help my kids see what it really is, use it for what it's worth and still relate to people in an emotionally healthy way.

This is all such good stuff, you guys. And I know that you're going to expound on all these topics and more in the book.

And so people need to get the.

Resource, they need to read it. They need to have it in their minds as they work with kids and teens, whether they're parents or youth pastors. So every episode we like to kind of ask a closing question. You know, what, what final tip, what piece of advice? So we're there for this episode. What's one tip or piece of advice that you want to give parents and leaders who are listening and they're feeling unsure of how to approach their kids or students? What, what would you want to leave them with in this podcast?

So we would recommend that when you broach any kind of topic, whether it's pornography, sexting, which is a big problem with teens today. And intern, no matter what the topic, if you start a conversation with your kid, listen, don't try and fix it. Don't try and tell them that they're not entitled to their feelings. Reinforce their feelings, be sensitive, model empathy. But listening is a huge, huge goal when it comes to building relationship. And again, the foundation of helping your kids navigate the Internet comes from that, that foundation from the relationship.

And I would add to that, start at the earliest age possible. Start listening and asking questions as soon as you think that they're ready. And listen, especially at a young age, because they might be ready sooner than you think. You know, when they, when they say, well, what is this? Or what does this mean? Don't go, oh, my gosh, let's not conquer that. Think about, oh, yeah, let's have a conversation about that. Where did you hear that? And like Heather said, listen, see what they know so that you can help them as best as possible.

Yeah, guys, this was awesome. Thanks for being here with us and thanks for writing the resource. The resource, I think, is very, very needed, and we're looking forward to its release and picking that up. So thanks for being on with us.

Thanks.

Thanks.

If you want to pre order a copy of Digital Natives, visit PureDesire.orgDigital-Natives and thank you for listening to the PureDesire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also, you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that isuredesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purchase.