010 - Pure Desire Counseling

Before we start the podcast today, we wanted to let you know about an upcoming event, Pure Desire's Redeemed Men's Conference, September 15th through 17th at Cascades Camp in Yelm, Washington. This will be a time to gather together as men where we will worship together, hear world class teachings, learn from experienced workshop speakers, and learn more about how to battle for purity in Christ. Come escape the noise and distraction of everyday Life. Join us September 15th through 17th and rest in what Christ calls you, Redeemed. To register, visit PureDesire.org redeemed We hope to see you there. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hip hip hooray.

And we are so blessed today to have two of our Pure Desire clinicians with us, Tyler and Sherry Chinson. Is that right, Chinson? That's correct.

Got it.

Yeah, Chinson. I feel good now. So Sherry's a pastor and is one of our pastoral sex addiction professionals. And Tyler is our clinical director. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist and is a certified sex addictions therapist supervisor. So it's safe to say that you guys are overqualified to be here hanging out with us today.

I'm looking forward to some free counseling. Yes, I think that's what it is. Yes.

Me and Nick's relationship has just been really needing some dynamic change.

Is this podcast 10? Yeah, that's probably about the point. Like some frictions gonna develop. Just part of. Part of life.

That's right. Okay, so Tyler, Sherry, thanks for being on the PD podcast.

Thanks.

Good to see you.

Trevor, Nick, good to see you guys.

Awesome.

Well, okay, so today our goal is to talk through really the counseling practice and ministry of Pure Desire. So Tyler and Sherry are gonna help us understand why counseling is needed and why it's so important, while also giving us a little bit of insight into what maybe a Pure Desire counseling system session or process might look like for someone going through that. So before we jump in, let's just get to know you guys a little bit. Can you just kind of share a little bit about you guys and your background?

Well, I first met Ted and Diane many, many moon ago here when they were senior pastors here at East Hill Church and I was working in the drama ministry there. They were kind of beta testing, I guess, the Pure Desire program from the pulpit. So that was a really interesting thing to do then. And then to see where we are now. I've worked in Betrayal and Beyond groups for about seven years now and then came on with with Tyler as his co clinician about seven years ago. So working toward some really good stuff.

Very cool. Very cool. Tyler, what about you?

Your background for me, past Pure Desire connection. I was actually part of the focus group for the first run through of Seven Pillars of Freedom, and that was about 10 years ago, and have stayed connected with Ted and Diane ever since. My current connection with Peer Desire, I work on the clinical team, obviously, and currently we're serving about 200 clients out of the Gresham office. And this past year, I led four Peer Desire student ministry groups. And I've also been a member of the writing team at Pure Desire. The last effort was a workbook for couples titled Connected, and that's now available.

Great resource. We had Ted and Diane talk about that on a previous episode. Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes so people can see it.

Excellent.

Yeah.

Personally, Sherry and I have been married for 27 years. We've got two daughters, and they're both college students. We live in Gresham, have done so since 96. So we actually built a home, moved out here to be closer to the church community.

Yeah.

And so that may give a sense of commitment that we have to serving Christ. We still live in the same house, and we don't see any changes in the near future.

Very cool.

Very cool.

Well, thanks for being here, guys. We're excited about this insight into your lives and the counseling approach of Pure Desire. So from an outsider's perspective, the role, or job, profession, if you will, of counseling can seem pretty challenging and difficult. You know, I spend a lot of time hearing about other people's problems and troubles and stress. So what is it that drew you guys to counseling? Something that you probably don't just when you're a little kid. No one says, I'm going to grow up and be a firefighter. No. A counselor.

Yeah. Talk about problems.

So what drew you both to become counselors?

Well, for me, it just seemed like a natural progression of God's call upon my life. In 92, I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior. After that effort of stepping into that call, I began to get involved in men's ministry and from there would lead men's study groups. Sherry and I supported Couples Life groups, led those. And I also got involved with Prison Fellowship and Bill Glass and his Weekend of Champions. And we would go into prisons and minister to incarcerated youth and adults. And what I discovered is God would Show up. And through the effort, if you will, there was change that had taken place in the lives of people. And so it just felt like I was effective, you know, administering mentoring. And so in 96, Dr. Ted came out one Sunday morning, and the first thing he said is, I don't know who I'm speaking to, but you're considering going back into education. I'm here to say you got to move on that. And so five months later, I'm in a graduate program at George Fox.

Did you stand up and say, me, me, me?

I was the one who was like, tyler, Tyler.

So again, it just felt like a natural progression to move in this direction of helping people, serving others, and honoring God in that effort.

Yeah, Very cool.

Yeah, I guess for me, I've been in education for now 32 years. I started when I was about 4, you know, but that has been a role where I've worked with parents, students, to develop educational plans. A lot of that turned out to be counseling through them, working with them, and through our work with the life groups. I became involved in leading some women's groups at church. Kind of progressed to when Tyler started working at Pure Desire, working with him, working with Betrayal and beyond groups, I kind of was pulled along with him. And part of it, too, is I really like working with him. I like seeing him in action, learning from what he's doing. It's a really interesting dynamic to work together as a married couple.

Very cool.

So a lot of us have heard the term counseling. I don't think it's a term that anybody hasn't heard before. And when I think of counseling, and I think the natural, like, I guess Hollywood paints this picture of you come in and lay down on this weird leather couch that isn't really comfortable, and someone has a yellow notepad and their legs are crossed and they have glasses and they're drinking coffee, asking, how does that make you feel? Right. And so I guess what I'm asking is, can you just give us what is the actual definition and function of counseling?

The actual definition, Trevor, is to just provide assistance and guidance for people who are struggling with problems related to personal, social, psychological issues. Just come alongside them and guide them through that process of healing.

Yeah.

That's a 30,000 foot view.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I imagine that that is not an easy thing to do to come alongside people, especially when maybe they don't realize they need help or want that help. Is that true?

It is true. Most people show up on our doorstep and they know they need help.

Yeah.

Because they are carrying a tremendous burden. And, you know, we. We don't see mandated clients, so people are there voluntarily.

Yeah.

And so we do our best to assist them.

Yeah. Very cool. Well, I mean, the hope of asking that question really, is that people can understand that a counselor is not there to judge you. Not to tell you you're a terrible person or even to tell you exactly what to do, but to help you move forward in your life and make progress.

So, indeed, it's amazing the pain that people show up carrying, burdened by just bondage, and they're just seeking help, and we understand their heart and their desire for change, and we meet him in that place.

So basically, if you. If you watch the Hollywood. The Hollywood, you know, description or depiction of it, it's just bogus. Don't even. Just turn it off. Don't even watch that anymore. Change the channel. Right.

We absolute align with our clients and meet them at that point of need. Yeah, it's very cool.

I think Trevor alludes to misconceptions that exist about counseling. And I think people have a lot of different ideas what it'll be like. I noticed as a pastor, by the time someone would come to me or one of our staff pastors looking for help, we would usually converse and feel like they came in way too late. And I think a lot of that was a misconception on their part that counseling was only for those in extreme situations or that were really bad. And maybe for a person growing up in the church, counseling can seem like an admission, a shameful admission that I'm so bad I need help. And I just. I wonder what you would say to that misconception, perhaps, or that idea that counseling is only for those that are really bad, and so therefore I don't need counseling. How might you explain what you do or what counseling is in a way that could maybe broaden our definition and understanding of counseling?

Nick, you touched on a great point. It is true. Research suggests that people will wait in a distressed marriage, six years. Marriage, six years, before they seek help.

I always thought it was about five years, so I'm glad I was close.

I haven't even been married that long, so that seems like a long time.

You better just start now, Trevor.

And so it's sort of when things get really bad, that's when they seek help. And as you alluded to, Nick, that's sometimes that's too late, which reinforces the misconception that I have to be really ill, really sick, or just in a real low point before I'll seek help.

Well, I think, too, you alluded to something that people feel like they should know how to do this. This is my life. I should know how to live my life. Sometimes we need help. We need help with decisions. We need help with situations that are going on around us.

So what would you say to the person that's listening? They're like, I mean, I got problems, but it's not that bad. So they've got this fear of counseling. What would you say to the person who's in that place right now and they're listening to this?

I would ask them if they could use an advocate, a guide in an area of their life that they may feel held back in. They might not be excelling in, whether it be relationship or some other area of their life, or addiction. If they're held back from their potential by certain behavior, don't wait. We meet people who are in their 70s, and I've heard time and time again, wow, I wish I had known about this process, this program earlier, and I wouldn't have carried this burden for five decades. But don't wait. That's what I would say.

Yeah, there's something in our human nature that we feel like, I've got to carry this alone. I've got to fix this alone. I know when my wife and I went through counseling with pure desire seven years ago, the idea I had about it and what actually happened were so very different that you do come out the other side going, why didn't we do that earlier? Like, why didn't we do that in the second year of marriage? I mean, I knew it was a problem then. I just thought, I'll fix it. I'll make this better. And if. If I'd have had that perspective, I think we would have engaged much sooner. And so I hope that's something individuals and couples get out of today, is that courage and confidence that I don't have to wait till it's extreme. If I need, like you said, Tyler, if I need an advocate, I need a coach. I need someone that can really help me think through constructively. What do I need to do to get from where I am to where I need to be, then counseling is a great option.

And I think what you guys are saying, too, though, is it's not something that you should feel shame when you walk through the door. You should feel like, this is a great step towards healing in my life, towards a new direction in my life, towards figuring out more of who I am, who I am in Christ. And so I just. I Think that that's what we hope right now. Anyone that's listening to this would understand. To ask for help to go to counseling is not something you should feel bad about, should not feel shameful about, but it's something that everybody needs at some level or another in their life. Doesn't matter who you are, if you're a counselor or not, it's what you need. You need people to come alongside and help. So again, that just speaks to how cool it is what you guys do. So this gets me excited. We could talk about this stuff for. For all day, but we got to continue through the podcast here. So we talked about the misconception and we talked about really what the term of counseling is. But when someone is approaching counseling through pure desire, where do you, where do you start? You just. They just show up and you just invite them into your office and you get going right away, or what does that process, the beginning of that process really look like?

The beginning of the process looks like we have to identify the scope of the problem. And if we were to sit down and talk about that, it would probably take four or five months to get to a good starting point. And so we asked for all prospective clients to take a pretty thorough assessment.

Yeah, the assessments focus on past and current behaviors. They focus on a person's trauma profile because when we know the trauma story, we know the addiction story. That's something we say a lot around here. And it also focuses on how you view yourself and when applicable, your spouse in the relationship. We have several assessments that work together to give us a really comprehensive picture of that relational dynamic that's going on. Those assessments, that information that we get is really useful in moving us forward in that counseling environment in a very efficient way so that we don't waste a lot of time at the beginning.

So would you say then that it helps create a starting point to move forward from in that?

Absolutely.

Got it.

Okay, so you describe this assessment. Tell us a little bit more about it. Is that something a person has to come in and talk to you like you're interviewing them for the assessment? You send them a packet of information, Describe a little bit more what the actual assessment is.

Yeah, that's a good question. The assessments, there's actually three of them. They're done online, anonymously. If there's someone who is struggling with sexually compulsive behavior, and that's the majority of our clients.

Right.

That individual would take what's called a sexual dependency inventory. It's actually 240 pages long, and will take the individual about two and a half hours.

So this is an extensive.

There is no stone that is not turned over, no question that isn't asked. And it's pretty gnarly, really. It's challenging. And most guys thought, well, I didn't think I'd ever answer this. Yes.

Yeah.

But in order to fully understand the scope of the problem, those assessments must be administered. The trauma profile. If an individual is reactive out of their past trauma, it's going to be difficult for them to move forward effectively in the counseling process. So if we see an extreme trauma reactivity profile, we'll address that before we even get started on the work. I mean, that will be the focus of our work. And then there's another temperament analysis that we administer that helps us understand how the individual views himself, and if there's a spouse, how they view their spouse in relationship.

So, again, it's almost like this is preparing them almost as much as you guys to actually step into counseling and receive treatment. Is that right?

It's exactly right. It's incredibly enlightening, you know, Wow. I never realized that that was burdening me, but I realized that it's burdening me through the relationship I have with my wife. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know where it was at.

It really helps them connect some dots relationally, how they deal with each other in that relationship. And we give the trauma profile and the Taylor Johnson temperament analysis to both spouses.

Yeah, just a quick personal testimony on that. You know, I took the SDI at the start of our counseling experience and heard about how long it was, and that was intimidating, you know, but it was mostly clicking buttons. There's a lot of yes and no. And as you mentioned, there were a ton of questions. I was so glad I could say no. And then some. That as I'm clicking yes, it's like, wow. Yeah, that's. That's been part of my story. And. And what was so helpful to me, because I came in skeptical, and I think a lot of addicts and people struggling do have skepticism because we've been battling rationalization and denial and minimization for so long that you come in and have a counselor say, here's in black and white, what your tests say. And it was a very sobering moment, but it was also a moment of reality that got me over that hurdle to say, okay, wow, these things are real and they need to be faced. Where if you had just met with me for four months and asked about, I could sugarcoat so well, and Say, oh, it seems like. And it feels like those assessments really eliminate the gray areas and allowed us as a couple to make a really confident decision that, yep, we need to move forward. And so for those listening that maybe heard, 240 pages are like, oh, I'm out. If you can click a button on your mouse, you can get through it, and it's going to provide you the data you need to really know if you should move forward. And that's maybe something listeners are kind of thinking through right now. Pure Desire groups are happening all over the country. We've got thousands and thousands of people that are benefiting from our group material. But one of the things we say at Pure Desire is from our experience, about 30% of people that are in a group are also going to need counseling in addition to the group experience in order to find real, lasting freedom. So if someone's in a group, how would they know if they're in that category that says, I'm going to need some counseling? In addition, group work, are there some markers or key indicators? What could they look for in their journey, in their story to know if they should be considering counseling?

Yeah. Well, Nick, there's a lot of different factors you can look at to figure out, do I need some more work? If an individual continues to relapse over a period of time despite your efforts, despite. Despite the group work, when your PTSI that you take in the programs or your trauma reactivity scores reveal some severe childhood or adult abuse or trauma that's been going on. When your sexual addiction screening test score is 16 or above, you might want to look into counseling. If there's a major mood disorder going on or major depression going on, anxiety. A lot of our women that come to us have a lot of anxiety going on. If you've got multiple addictions going on, alcohol, cocaine, gambling, maybe video gaming, that's a big addiction we see lately, eating addictions. When those multiple addictions are working together, you've really got to the piece out where the issues are.

What about coffee? Is caffeine an addiction? Or golf?

How about golf? Like Harry? A couple episodes ago, Harry told me that I'm probably addicted to golf. And so if you guys could just debunk that right now, I would be so happy.

I haven't heard that one, but yeah.

Tyler, we might have to review that.

Trevor, take it. Take that, Harry.

That's right. That's right.

And caffeine.

You know what? The more the better. I don't know.

There you go.

But also, if your spouse is so Traumatized, you know, through the process. If you've got. If your spouse has some major depression going on, PTSD symptoms, if they can't manage their mood or feelings, you need to come in and get support for that spouse or a big one. For group leaders, especially if that individual in the group is so disruptive to the group, if they are consistently not completing their homework. If you're seeing that despite the effort in that group, there's not forward momentum, maybe the group leader needs to have a serious talk with that individual.

How would you encourage a group leader to have that talk? Because I'm imagining it can feel like you're just too much for us. Go see a counselor. It can feel like just passing the buck or getting rid of them. So how could a group leader approach that conversation? Because I'm guessing for a lot of people, that might be where it starts. Is a group leader that can see it is going to be the one to speak into their life and recommend. I think this would help you. So how can they do that in a way that isn't just, you know, passing them off, like, get out of here, we can't help you.

I would likely encourage a individual conversation with that one, with the person.

So not in front of the whole group.

Not in front of the whole group.

That's just a good life practice and.

From there be okay with, we'll say confrontation. Ask the person if they're getting out of the group, what they need to get out of the group, what they desire to get from the group and how it's going with them. And I think that can be the beginning of. Let's explore this. Is that. Is this actually a good fit for you? Because it may not be.

Tyler brings up a really good point. When I was a new group leader, I had a. An individual in. In a group who would come without her homework done, who would come not ready to work, let's just put it that way. And it was very difficult for me as that new group leader to talk to her and to say, you know, you're not getting out of this because of that. I think my group was not as successful because I didn't manage it well as the group leader. So I think as a group leader, we need to be comfortable having these really difficult conversations.

Yeah.

And it may be helpful for a group leader just to have heard that, you know, number of 30% needing help. Because if you're in a group of five or six, that might mean one person really needs counseling, but for that one person, they might be Looking around the group feeling like, well, what's wrong with me? Everyone else is getting it. I'm still struggling. And as a group leader, if you can come alongside of them and say, hey, it's not just you, this is quite common. You know, 30% or more are going to need counseling. And there's some factors in your life. I mean that when you read that list, it's like for me, you know, check, check, check. And for a group leader to say to someone, this isn't a bad thing. There's just a lot that you're facing. And the group can be part of your healing, but it's probably only going.

To be a part.

You need someone that can walk into the real specifics of what you're battling and give you guidance and direction.

Yes, yes.

Which is why I think that this episode is so important and so important to talk about what counseling actually is. Because then that doesn't become a shameful or a pointing finger sort of conversation. That becomes an encouraging, a supporting, a discipling type of conversation, then potentially leads somebody into more healing. So, yeah. So again, just thanks for being here. We're so excited you guys are talking to us about this today.

Can I say one thing about the sexual addiction screening test? There is a copy of it on the PureDesire.org website. And if anyone listening is concerned or wondering if this is really an issue and if counseling could help them, that could be a good next step is to print off a copy of that, fill it out honestly, and see where that number is.

Yeah, that's good.

Thanks for mentioning that. Okay, so we talked about what counseling is. We're talking about that, you know, there's a certain percentage of men and women who maybe need it. But then let's get really practical now. So peer desire counseling, it is a process. We kind of talked about the evaluation process and how that process begins. But once someone steps into counseling with you guys, what does that look like? What can someone expect walking into their first session of Pure Desire counseling?

Can I frame that first session from one of the early tenants of Pure Desire? And that early Tenet was shame no. 1. So that individual stepping into the office or into the counseling session, they can expect and anticipate to be received with grace, with mercy, with love, with care, and then it goes from there. That's the framework in which we help people what the actual counseling looks like. I mean, session one, we hit the ground running with. We assigned four different workbooks for individuals to begin the restorative process. And these are Workbooks that the client becomes very familiar with. What are those workbooks for the male? For the addict, Seven Pillars of Freedom and the journal Pure Desire. Sometimes the recovery zone is a part of that. Facing the Shadow, both Dr. Carnes publications, the Genesis Process. All of our individuals and couples walk through that material. A great workbook to identify the original source of woundedness that drives certain unhealthy behavior. Very helpful resource for the couple. What Pure Desar discovered is along the journey of healing and restoration, that it typically takes just a matter of months before we put certain safeguards in place, certain boundaries and parameters for the addict to begin functioning in a way that is not destructive to himself and to his relationships. Well, beyond that, we need to work on the coupleship, on the marriage. And so the Connected Workbook is a great resource that we use there.

If we're looking at sort of the traditional situation that we work in with the identified patient, the addict is the male and the betrayed spouse the spouse gets.

It can be the other way around.

It can be the spouse would get the betrayal and beyond series as well as the Genesis Process. I've also used some other workbooks with some women worked with. Untangling Relationships is one of my workbooks that I tend to go to. Because women in this situation tend to have a lot of codependency. And so that workbook helps us to look at codependency from a Christian perspective. And I've also used some of the Recovery Zone material too, and Stephanie Carnes material. When we do have a female addict, however, and we do, there are female sex and love addicts, have a different kind of shame going on than the male sex addicts, especially Christian women. So we also care for those women. We have resources that we have developed called eight Pillars. For women, we get eight pillars. And women, men only need seven pillars.

Always better.

That's right. That's right.

We're simpler creatures. We really just need less steps.

That was Diane's perspective. Perspective on this. Yeah. She says, you know, women have an advanced brain, so we need eight pillars.

What we have discovered in this process is this. There's no quick fix.

No.

This is typically either anywhere from two to five year process. Does that mean an individual or couple is in counseling for two to five years? No. Does that mean they're doing some type of restorative work? Yeah. And so our program looks like 12 months.

Yeah.

And that couple or individual would meet with their clinician or clinical team twice a month for 90 minutes. They'll integrate in a pure desire, support group. And what we've discovered is a lot of people who have experienced freedom through this process and program want that for the people around them. And so in that they continue the ministry and it becomes part of their ministry.

When you guys started this question and you brought up workbooks for some people, you just introduced a paradigm they maybe hadn't thought of. Because our culture kind of says if you have a problem, go to a counselor, sit and talk to them for an hour. You know, do that for two, three months, and you're golden because they're gonna fix you in your sessions. And someone's maybe thinking, okay, I'll go to pure desire and they're gonna, they're gonna fix me in my sessions. But now you've just described what sounds like quite a bit of homework. Could you talk about that a little bit, the value of homework and work outside of the counseling office? Because I know from personal experience it's a whole lot more than what happens in the office. But I'd love to have you talk about why that's such an important part of the journey.

Well, Nick, if I could speak to that. The renewing of the mind requires consistency. It requires essentially an immersion in new ways to, to process pain, to cope with stressors of life, just to manage with life. Essentially, the individuals who have been exceedingly successful in this program, and there have been many, commit 30 to 40 minutes a day in some type of restorative work. It's absolutely required. It's a new way to process. It's a new way to view themselves, sometimes to view God and those around them. So it's a tremendous commitment. And I'll tell people on the front end, this is not for the faint hearted. It's going to require a ton of work.

And that's for both individuals. If we're looking at a couple situation, both the addict and the spouse need to be investing that amount of time.

Isn't it interesting how our brain can immediately when we hear, you know, daily homework, 30 to 40 minutes, like, man, that's so much. Who has time for that? And yet how many of us have time, 30, 40 minutes a day of Facebook or TV or even other healthy things, you know, 30 to 40 minutes a day on average of exercise is not that bizarre. Or walking. And you look at if this is about regaining my life and finding health and freedom, that's actually a fairly low level, if that's going to achieve it. But just to have that perspective of I'm going to dedicate time to this outside of counseling, I Think is a really, really key perspective.

Well, when people getting to the point where they understand that a quick fit fix is not ever going to happen. I mean, when I first started Pure Desire groups, I. I remember hearing for the first time, you've been an addict for a really, really long time. Years and years and years. You can't expect two hours a week to then, in six weeks to then process all your trauma, all of your junk and, and move forward in purity. It's like you gotta, you gotta go to work. Like this is training is what it is. And so, yeah, I understand completely that it's not for the faint of heart. But just remember that was a shift for me where stop looking for the right verse, stop looking for the right person to speak into my life, but really start focusing on actually putting in the work necessary to make the changes.

Yeah, yeah, sometimes we're looking for that golden key. Just tell me how to turn the key. And what we give to people, I think is a. It's a golden journey. It is golden, but it takes a lot of time and effort. When you guys described the counseling process, you kept referring to the couples together, you know, the spouse and the addict. For the person listening who feels like, well, why would we go as a couple? This is his problem, he should go deal with it. Or this is my problem, she doesn't want anything to do. I know. Our approach at Pure Desire is to counsel couples together as much as possible. Why that approach?

It's a really unique model, but we recognize at Pure Desire that sex addiction is a family system issue. It happens to the couple. It doesn't just happen to the identified patient, whichever one is the addict. And it impacts both the addict and the spouse. It impacts the whole family.

Yeah.

And because it impacts the whole family, you need to have the family engaging together in change.

Yes.

So do you have any experience or background when you've seen someone who just does the work alone? Like a guy's like, well, I'm just going to do it by myself. Just I'll get better and that'll fix things. Why is that? Maybe not effective. So this is the other side of the coin. Why is a person coming alone without their spouse less effective?

I've got an example from the last two and a half months. She was not willing to engage. It's his problem. Fix him and we'll be good. And she didn't have support. He was receiving support. He was receiving encouragement. He was moving forward. And she was still stuck in the pain. And she didn't experience the Change that he is beginning to experience. And so she feels left behind, and she doesn't have the tools that will assist her in relating to him in a new way. And so in that she's on an island.

So it's not that he's not getting healthy, it's that his family then is not getting healthy. So the individual can still get healthy by putting in the work, but their family dynamic and the health of that family structure will not get better without both spouses being involved. Is that right?

Well, it's like picking up one member of that family, moving him over here to Gresham, cleaning him up, you know, providing him with the tools to move forward in a healthy way, putting him back in the same dysfunctional dynamics, family system that was there from the beginning. So we're only doing a portion of our work if we just address the individual.

Let me ask another question on that, because I'm curious. If you do that, if just one member, if the addict is getting help and then gets put back into that dysfunctional family system, does then relapse become more of a possibility? Does the percentage necessarily increase if you're put back in that situation?

I would think that the chances of relapse, not having the support in the home, not having a common language, not having the language of intimacy that a couple acquires going through this program, the odds are stacked against him.

I think what I've noticed with the women that I work with in that situation, they don't have a voice. They have lost their ability to speak into their own lives and into their husband's lives. They don't know how to use the language of intimacy. They don't know how to use these tools. And so through the counseling process, they get the support, they learn, they become stronger. I was telling Tyler yesterday, my favorite time in counseling is around month seven, eight, somewhere in there. Because that's when I really see the woman start developing that sense of strength, that core inner strength comes back to her because she's gotten the support along the way.

I think an example that a lot of listeners might relate to, when you think about just working with the individual and not the couple, is people that have gone to prison for drug issues. You talk to them while they're in prison or coming out, they are so motivated. They're changed. They've gone through this program, but over and over, they walk right back into the same environments and friendships and communities and, you know, repeat drug offenders. The numbers on that are just through the roof because their environment doesn't change. And if we can see that in the extreme example, then I think we can see it in these issues like pornography, where if. If only one individual changes but comes back to the same environment, they figure out all the ways the environment was actually contributing to their struggle, and it is difficult to change. So if there's a spouse right now that's listening to this, and they're kind of in that mindset of, this is not my problem. I don't want to have to deal with this. I want them to get fixed. And they're pretty resistant to the counseling process. What would you say to them by way of encouragement that this would be really helpful for you? Also, how would you encourage them?

I think what I would say is, yeah, it is his problem, and I'm sorry, but you need support, too. You need somebody to come alongside you and help you through this process. You need to develop that strength, that inner voice that allows you to say, this is what I need now. And in that, it gives the female, the wife, a sense of being in control of her own destiny, being connected again to who she is, her value in the relationship. It's just a really great situation. When the wife gets involved, she's able to help the husband heal in a new way. Something Diane said to me a long time ago is, God brought you together as a husband and wife for a unique reason. You, as the wife, you're the only one that God designed to be able to help him heal. He's the only one that has been able to help you heal too. And so when that dynamic works together in this counseling situation, it's amazing what can come out. Yeah.

And it's awesome to see how couples start speaking the same language, having a lot of the same tools and verbiage even to. To describe what's going on. And the way that just creates momentum in their relationship. That's what I see in couples. And my encouragement is, even if you think it's his problem, if your marriage was thriving, wouldn't you want that? And, like. Well, yeah. Well, that's what the counseling experience can help with. So we've used the terminology. Some come in. Does a person have to come into the office to receive help?

You know what's interesting and helpful? As a ministry, we've got a broad reach. Not all mental health professionals have that reach. About 80% of the clients we meet, we do so via video conference. That's a huge percentage. Technology has really facilitated our ability to reach people. So, no, they don't have to come in.

Wow. Okay. So every episode We. We end with this question. We want to ask you this. And maybe someone out there is listening and is flirting with the idea that I need counseling. Or maybe they're a group's leader and is wanting to have that difficult conversation with someone in group or a spouse is listening, just looking for some sort of hope. What sort of encouragement? As far as the realm of Pure Desire counseling, what sort of encouragement? Tips, Practical things that you would. You would close with here.

It's interesting you mentioned hope because a lot of people are at a point where they don't feel hopeful that they can change, that the behavior can change. We see change that happens almost daily. So I would just encourage that person if they're discouraged and feeling alone. They're not alone. This is the work that Pure Desire does 24. 7. It's essentially all we do is help people navigate through the restorative and healing process. So I would say pick up the phone, place a call, reach out, and it can start with a consultation and you can talk to someone how we might be able to help them.

Sherry, you got anything to add to that?

I can't say it better.

I thought.

I think he did a wonderful job. I think he pretty much wrapped it up in a nutshell. You know, one of the things that we've started doing, though, at Pure Desire is providing exit surveys. And we found that 93% of those who complete those surveys do say that this has been helpful for them and they would recommend it. This is a program that works.

Yeah. And that's such a. It's such a good tip. You know, if you're listening, please just reach out. Reach out. I mean, even if you don't feel like you are at the depth of your sin or your trauma, don't wait six years. Don't wait. Just pick up the phone and reach out. Tyler, Sherry, this is so great. Thanks for being here, spending time with us.

The privilege. Thank you, Trevor.

Thank you, Nick. And honestly, just thanks for what you do every day, helping people process through their journey and getting healthy. We really appreciate what you guys do here at the ministry.

It's a privilege. Thank you.

If you are interested in more information on Pure desire counseling, visit puredesire.org counseling thank you for listening to the PureDesire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also, you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org work. Check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.