012 - Weekly Phone Calls

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Jolly good chap.

Today we have our very own Brian Roberts with us. Brian, how are you doing?

I'm doing great. It's great to be back.

Awesome. This is two episodes in a row for you. This is kind of a big deal.

I'm just trying to, you know, pace myself, really.

We're really just trying to platform you is what we're trying to do. So, hey, today we want to spend time talking about a piece of our ministry that we push pretty often. And it's weekly phone calls. The weekly phone calls that we encouraged are made to group members. And it's a part of our commitment to change. It's a part of the content that we have. And it's coupled with the homework and the group attendance each week while you're in group. And it tends to be sometimes one of the first things that goes out the window for guys. And so guys and gals. And so we're going to talk through it today. So let's just jump in.

Let's do it.

Thanks, Trevor. It is great to be here. I'm glad I still am after my intro. Didn't get me kicked off the show. And glad to have you with us, Brian. You know, when a lot of people start attending a peer desire group, they're maybe in a small group mode that says, hey, so long as I've, you know, read my chapter, done a little bit of homework, and I show up at group, that should be enough. And as they get used to a peer desire group that has some more commitments that we make that really are effective at bringing change, it can be an adjustment. So let's start there with, why is making phone calls a part of the weekly responsibilities for group members in a Pure Desire group?

Yeah, great question. And we get this question a lot because I've had it frequently where someone will ask, well, I signed up for the Pure Desire class and I had no idea it was so much work and I didn't know these things. So first of all, it's not a class, it's a group that it's an ongoing weekly change process. And one of the most important pieces of change, especially when we're talking about struggling with betrayal addiction, is to break isolation. Because both of those Whether you're in a group, for those who are struggling with someone else who's going through addiction or you yourself are struggling with addiction, isolation is a commonality. And so bottom line, making those calls breaks isolation. We can feel very connected at group with the people around us, especially as we see vulnerability take place. But what we don't want to do is we don't want to have that be a once a week occurrence where I'm vulnerable on Tuesday when I go to group and the rest of the week. Okay, close it up. Let's get back to work. Yeah. And so one of the most fundamental elements of seeing change happen is to break that isolation, to recognize that I need my group with me all week. I need. It's not that they're going to be. I'm going to be calling them and leaning on them for everything, but. But I am going to continue this vulnerability of how I live my life, how things are hitting my week and they're affecting me on a weekly basis. Yeah, yeah.

That's really good. And it brings to mind for me that the experience I've had is if I stay in isolation, if I go a week without talking to anyone until I'm at group, it's so much easier to stay unaware of what's going on in my life. My self awareness is very low. Because when we're in isolation, it's easy to deceive ourselves. That's why we've gotten into the problem. Because in isolation we've talked ourselves into all kinds of things that if we called and talked to someone about it.

You get it. Yeah. You see from life from a different angle. Absolutely. Yeah.

So then let me ask you this. Why is breaking isolation such a big piece to getting healthy and getting free from addiction?

Great question. Yeah. And you know, this is one that we've seen in the research and clinical studies over the last 30 years. This idea has really developed that isolation is a paramount piece. It's really big. Back in the 1960s and 70s when we were looking at addiction and they're saying, wow, people are addicted to heroin and cocaine and how do we get them off it? And scientists would do studies with lab rats and it usually went something like, get a cage, get a rat, food and water, put it in there. Unlimited supply of heroin. Let's see what happens. And we all know the story. The rat dies of either overdose or, or hunger because it's not eating, because it's just doing heroin all the time. And so from that we made the assumption that, okay, rat plus drugs Equals addiction. So drugs are the problem, of course. And that made sense of the narrative of when you look at someone who say, struggling with heroin addiction. But there's a little problem with that, and that is that many of these scientists were saying, well, gosh, grandpa just had his hip replaced, and he's on diamorphine, which is like a very strong dose of heroin. And six months after his recovery and rehabilitation from his surgery, grandpa's not a. Not a heroin addict. And so what's the difference? And really, the difference is that grandpa is using heroin. He doesn't know he's using heroin. We wouldn't tell him, sorry, grandpa, Sorry. But grandpa's using heroin in a controlled method with his physician to rehabilitate and manage pain in the process of physical therapy. A heroin addict is using heroin to manage the pain of life. That's a very, very different thing. And so in the late 1970s, there was a study done by Bruce Alexander, who's a Canadian psychologist, and it was called Rat Park. And basically what he said is, what if we changed this experiment up? What if it wasn't a rat in a cage and water and food and heroin? What if it was like rat Disneyland? And he basically built. It was an enclosure, but it was basically rat Disneyland. They had balls and toys, and the rat wasn't alone. He had all these rat friends with him.

It was making you want to go to Disneyland right now.

Right, I know. And he had that treadmill, and it was a good time. And they had food and water, just like in the original experiment, and an unlimited supply of heroin. Yet in this experiment, because the rat was socializing, the rat was playing with toys and doing normal rat things, they found that seldom did the rats ever use heroin, and they never used it habitually as an addiction. And so he made the conclusion. He said, what if drugs are not the source of addiction? What if the cage is the source of addiction? Basically meaning that addiction comes from isolation. And we see this in scripture over and over again. God created man in his own image, male and female. He didn't make Adam say, there you go. He made Adam and Eve. You're going to be in relationship with me. You're going to be in relationship with Eve. And you see this. Paul writes in Corinthians where he talks about, we are the body of Christ. I mean, I might be a really good hand as a Christian. I might be an awesome hand, but I'm not getting anywhere without the foot and the body and everything else. I think proverbs really sums it up best. It says whoever isolates themselves seeks their own desire. And they break out against all sound judgment. I mean, basically, isolation is so dangerous because I believe it creates addiction and it creates. Like you said, Nick, we don't have another perspective. It gives us foolish assumptions.

Yeah, it goes back to that self deception that in isolation I'm alone and I'll listen to just about any crazy thought that comes in my head without the voice of community and relationship to correct me and create those feelings of purpose and meaning and value. And yeah, I love that connection, that that's how God made us. It's good to see that what we're trying to work on in a pure desire group is not to make someone something they aren't. Like, we're trying to make you talk to people. It's really an effort to try to help you be the kind of person God made us all to be. And that's in relationship.

Well, in isolation is really comfortable, though. Like, I don't have to address my issues. I don't have to change. I don't have to deal with other people who are sinful like me. Isolation is really easy. And so I think that sometimes control it totally. And I think that sometimes we think that solitude equals isolation. And sometimes we kind of go down that trail and end up, you know, somewhere where we didn't want to be. But it. At the same time, you know, some of us get tired, you know, some of us get tired about, like, about being around people. And you just have to be careful. You have to be careful because isolation can become this like lazy boy chair that you sit in for the rest of your life.

There's a huge difference between meditation time with the word, time with the Lord, self care. You know, when I go work out on the treadmill, I'm by myself. And it's good, you know, because like, we talk to people all day. I just need to run for a little bit, folks, you know, and that's fine. But if that's my world, right? If, if, if exercise is my. That can become an addiction too. I think a great question to, to think about is in group. Don't, don't ask, you know, how little have you sinned this week? Or, or basically, what's your sobriety? We should be asking how much have you connected this week? I think, I think that's a much better question to ask in light of how are you doing on working towards recovery and restoration?

Because, you know, based on what you're saying, I think that the amount of time that we Put into connecting with other people will indicate how we did that week.

Exactly.

For sure.

Exactly.

Well, Brian, let's address the elephant in the room a little bit. And that's for many listening. They would say, I hate phone calls. Why do I have to do it? It's a dreaded part of the week or their day. And the fact that we live in a world where texting and online messaging is so prevalent and easy and convenient, I'm sure for some won't name any names. I'm sure for some it feels like, can't I just send texts? Isn't an email just as good? So is it okay for group members to just text each other or are phone calls really necessary?

You've got to do phone calls. I'm sorry, I hate to say, I would love to text people. Just say, doing great, everything's fine. Texting, I think it has its place, but it does not replace phone calls. Texting prevents vulnerability because when I am texting, I can choose to respond or not. I really control the conversation. When I get on the phone, I have no idea what my group members are going to ask me. I mean, they know me really well, and the more they know me, the more scary questions they might ask me. But really, when I face those questions, that's where change happens. When they say, and it has to be done in a very loving and caring way. But I've always found that it is. When a group member says, brian, I just have this observation and I want to know what you think. And I'm like, dang, okay, that really messed with my week. I'm going to have to rethink this here because I thought I was doing great here. I think I'm maybe not as good off as I thought I was. When there's a text message, I can simply say, okay, don't talk about this, don't talk about that. I'm going to send this because that's what they want to know or that's what they're going to expect. And I know how to control that conversation. And even with their response, I can be very careful about how I respond. Again, it's so much different to be on a phone with somebody or even meeting face to face. I mean, there are plenty of times where people in my group, they're like, you know, can we meet for coffee once a week? I'm like, yeah, that would be really cool. And let's, you know, make. Let's do a check in while we're there too. Um, and I really valued those times because even though they're difficult at first and I fear that vulnerability and man, what are they going to say when I say this and I realize this or what are they going to ask that I'm not thinking of? Yeah, I always leave feeling so much better than it came. I always hang up the phone feeling like, thank God I called.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what I hear you saying is that when we text or message, we can still do image management, we can still control the conversation. Yep. And that's dangerous. And I know more and more we see younger generations, or really any generation in this Internet driven age kind of losing some of those social skills. And I know you talk about this in your book Digital Natives, maybe speak to that for a little bit. Like, why would making your weekly phone calls help you develop your social skills of just making friends? Which something honestly a lot of us as guys really struggle with?

Well, I, you know, I think it's pretty common, especially in the church, you see that guys don't tend to want to get into small groups and when they do, it's because they're offering a breakfast or meal or something, you know, and then we eat and we leave. Yeah, give me some bacon and I'm out of here. You know, I'll listen to the guy talk, but don't, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get close to you or. Yeah, I, I think that that is a challenge of this generation for sure. And like you said, we talked about that in, in podcast number nine. And really what, what ends up happening is it, it's sort of self prop. Perpetuating. The more that I resist opening up, the more I am to continue to resist. And the more that I open up and I feel, okay, somebody gets what I'm saying. I showed a little bit of who I am, who I really am, and I didn't get shamed for it. And maybe even I felt some empathy, like, wow, man, I've been there. That's really rough. The more likely when I'm in a rough spot, going to reach out again. And that's really the key because every one of us is going to hit crisis at some point in life. We're all, you know, God loves us enough, he's not going to cause crisis, but boy, he sure loves us enough to let it happen. And when we hit crisis, the Bible says that we're supposed to share with each other, we're supposed to reach out to those around us. And so if I have been cultivating this relationship with the guys in my group and People in my church, and I'm honest with them, I'm very likely when things go south to say, okay, I don't think I'm gonna be judged. Maybe I will be. But last time I wasn't. So let me try this. Let me see what happens. Because how much better would life be when life was going sideways, that we reached out to someone and we just knew? Because maybe not like we felt it was gonna happen, but because of past experience, it's happened before, that they're gonna understand and they're gonna do whatever they can to help. Boy, how much better would life be?

Yeah, well, and I. When I make my phone calls, I find that I've never regretted a phone call that I made.

Right.

And it's interesting how the Lord works. And, I mean, I couldn't. I couldn't put this in statistics or anything, but just the way that the Lord works. Usually, if not all the time, when I make a phone call, I realize that I was somewhere I needed somebody. Like, maybe I didn't even realize that I needed that conversation. But then I realized, wow, look how far down I was getting down the faster scale. Look how close I was getting to relapse, to wanting to act out or numb out. And then at the same time, most often, I would find that that conversation also would be the same thing for that group member that I called, that whether it was me or him that I would call. And at one point or another, it's like one of us has something going on and we need to have a conversation. So I think that it's important for us to do, and it's a great practice to have. And I think that God is faithful and uses that every single time to bring about more community and pulling us out of isolation. So that's just been my experience. I think phone calls are such a huge piece, for sure. Okay, Brian. So I'm a millennial, so texting and emojis and all that is. It's in my blood, is what it feels like at this point. So you mentioned just a minute ago that texting is not what we want guys to do in group. We want guys to make phone calls. Guys and gals. Sorry. We want them to make phone calls. But can texting be a part of accountability? Like, is texting of the devil? And is it. You know, how to. Does texting breed isolation?

Is it on a faster scale?

Right, right, right. Faster with two T's. Like, can we. Is it okay to text? How can texting and messaging be a part of accountability?

Sure. Great, great question. You know, I ran into this in the second group I was a part of and we, we were very adamant in my first group. Gotta make phone calls, Gotta make phone calls. And it didn't really ever come up. And I think maybe also given that, I think I was the youngest guy, so it didn't, it didn't really connect. But in the second group, the seven pillars group that I was in, I had a lot of, you know, younger than me, 20, 25 year olds. And, and so this was a big deal for them. And I said, no, can't text, not going to happen. And they just kind of went with it. But there were situations that started to happen. I remember in one circumstance where we would start talking about someone who had relapsed. And this is really common. You have to understand too, a lot of guys are going to come to the group or gals are going to come to the group and relapse is, is going to be a challenge because they haven't experienced sobriety yet. And this isn't a normal part of their recovery yet. And so they would make a call after they relapsed. And so our group would say, well, why not make a call before? You know what I mean? That would be so much more helpful. And so we started implementing that idea and talking about that. And then a couple times it was like I tried to call and nobody was available. Now what was cool was they started thinking about it and that usually prevented the relapse. And so we said, hey, what if we sent a text? If you can't get a hold of anybody, either text the person you're going to call tonight, or if you don't have anybody on your schedule to call tonight, then do a group text, Do a group text to everybody in the group and say, who can I talk to tonight? I'm struggling and I need to tell somebody something. And what that text did, is it sort of predetermined that from right now where I'm struggling with temptation to, when I'm going to speak to someone tonight because I know somebody in my group's gonna say, yeah, you can call me. I'm now accountable. I have to deal with this. And we had another situation too, where there was a guy in my group who had come to our group because he was struggling with using Internet pornography at work and had had some consequences that were very serious and were gonna have even more consequences happen again. So he said, well, I've got this problem where we have a policy that we don't make Outside calls during work hours, and I want to be responsible for that. And we said, hey, perfect, if you're struggling, text somebody and say, I'm going to call you tonight. Is that cool? Ask me about this. We came up with two very important rules, and I think these are very good rules to have when you're adding this sort of accountability texting to your group. Number one, texts should enhance and encourage calls. They don't replace calls. They should enhance and encourage the calls. And number two, texting does not change the ownership of accountability. In other words, it's my responsibility to make my three calls. I don't say, hey, Joe, I'll call you on Thursday. And Thursday rolls by, and then, you know, I come back to group. I'm like, joe, why don't you call me? He'll be like, well, because it was your call. You're calling me, not the other way around.

Stupid Joe.

Come on, Joe, get your head in the game. And just because I texted someone doesn't mean they're going to call me. And we made that really clear in the text. We would say in the language of the text, I'm struggling. Is it okay if I call you tonight? Or when I call you tonight, if this was like this plan that I was going to call, I'm going to talk about this. Is that cool? So the ownership still lies with me to be accountable to other people. And that reinforces the value of that text. Because when I'm doing a text, I'm still thinking I'm responsible for my accountability, not my group members. It's me. And so this text is not going to replace my phone call. It is going to assure me that I'm going to call somebody or they're going to ask about it, come group. And I already know what I want to talk about.

Yeah, I saw the value of a text in my own story. Several years ago, I needed to buy a gift for my wife, and the store that had it was at a shopping mall. And like many guys, shopping malls have a lot of triggers. And I. As I pulled into the parking lot, I could tell there were triggers. It's like, whoa. And so I sent a text to a couple of my group members, like, hey, I'm going to buy this for my wife. Ask me when we talk how I did. And as soon as I sent that text, it was like the sense of triggers was gone because I knew anything I did, I was now accountable to, because I told guys I was going to tell them. And so I think those kind of things were Real quickly, you can say, hey, here's something going on. Pray for me. I'll call you tonight, tell you how it went, where maybe a phone call you're not ready for. It's not practical. That text can, like you said, enhance and encourage your. Your pattern of phone calls.

So that's a good dose of reality.

Yeah.

In the moment.

So, as we've talked about, texting or messaging can sometimes get in the way of making phone calls can be one of the hurdles that we have to overcome. But what would you say are some other obstacles or hurdles that guys and gals have to get through in making their weekly phone calls?

Yeah, you know, Trevor, you kind of touched on this one before, but I don't know if it's every time, but, boy, close to every time I pick up the phone to make my call, and I'm like, man, I don't really want to bother this person. They're probably busy right now. This is probably going to be a challenge for them, and I'm going to annoy them. Or sometimes I'd be like, why do I need to call? My week's going great. I don't need this. Everything's perfect, you know, or. Or even worse, I've had a terrible week. They're going to ask me questions that I don't want to talk about. Where I'm at on a faster scale. Yeah, but really, the result of that phone call was always the same thing. It was, thank God I called. And sometimes even when I was doing great and the other person would. I'd go through my faster scale and I'd answer the questions and talk about my commitment to change, I would find that. That the other person was so glad I called, like, they're just in trouble. And that frequency of community and how often we're connecting. And like we said, you know, not how much have you messed up, but how much are you connecting? That frequency of connection really encouraged me in my week. It encouraged them to know that I cared about them and that I was willing to follow through with what I said I was going to do. So I. I think that's really the biggest hurdle, is we make the assumption that I'm probably going to bother someone or this doesn't really matter, or I'm doing great or I'm doing terrible. I don't want anybody know. But the reality is you almost have to get to a place of saying, like it or not, this call is a really valuable part of my sobriety today. It's a really valuable part of my Health. Yeah.

I've made it a practice in groups to say to guys when you're going to make a phone call, if it's a good time for you, make the call. And don't worry about the group member because if. If it's a bad time for them, guess what they have? Voicemail.

Yeah.

If it's a bad time for me, I don't answer.

Yeah.

But if that guy calls or if I call and I leave a one or two minute voice message, checking in, even that, you know, it's better if we can talk in person. But leaving the voicemail gives me that accountability. I know they're going to hear it. I know I've been honest. So it's a step in the right direction. And I tell guys, if. If you can do that three times a week, you're ahead of the guy that makes no phone calls because he or she sits around going, oh, they're probably busy. They're at work there. There's always a reason not to call someone.

Yep.

So if it's a good time for you, call them. And if that means leave a voice message, that's better than nothing.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And when you're leaving a voice, a voicemail, and you're being honest and you're saying like, look, man, I'm struggling. Can you call me back? There's something, even psychologically, as I'm hearing myself say I'm in trouble, I'm having a difficult time. It's almost for me personally, when I've experienced it, I feel like there's almost like this layer of armor I start to put back on. I'm starting to like, yeah, I'm starting to own it.

Reality.

And it is a way of breaking isolation. I mean, don't just call guys when you know they're not going to be available and leave voicemails. That's not what we're looking for exactly. But it's. It is going to still work, I think, in the long run. So. Okay, Brian, so let's get really practical here. When group members call each other each week, they make their phone calls. What should these calls look like? What should guys talk about when they call each other?

Yeah, great question. And we cover this in both the leader's guide for all of our materials. We also talk about it in our journals. If you are in one of our recovery or betrayal groups, get the journal. And it will. I mean, it just makes this process so much simpler. I don't have to remember who I'm supposed to call. I grab my journal I have my commitment to change. I've got my faster scale. I've got everything right there. And it's in my backpack. I mean, that's where mine sits. And so I really eliminate the reasons I won't call somebody having that thing. But what we go through, there's a few basic things. We basically go through our faster scale and we report in our commitment to change. And so the first thing that you need to do when making a call is review your faster scale. So you pull out your faster scale and you're going to look at. Since the last time I've made a call or since group, where am I at on the faster scale? Work through. You don't have to circle every item, but just start working from the bottom up and say, you know, no, I'm good there. No, I'm good. Oh, looks like I'm forgetting some priorities here. Okay. Yep. That I got to circle that. And then when I get on the call, I'm going to report in and say, hey, this is Brian. I want to let you know how my faster scale is going. I found out I'm in, you know, in forgetting priorities. And I answer those questions, how does it affect you? How does it affect. Or how does it affect me? How does it affect the important people in my life? What is the benefit? Why do I do this? And then really, the important thing is how am I going to step off the faster scale? What do I need to do right now?

So practically, what are my plans to get to restoration?

What's my plan to get to restoration, which is not a once a week occurrence. I think a lot of times people think that, okay, I'm down the faster scale, and then I got back to restoration. That was my week. It's like, no, it's like every day I'm on a faster scale and I'm getting back to restoration. And so, and then. And I'm going to discuss that with my group member that I'm calling. And I asked for their feedback too. A lot of times we'd ask too, in how I'm going, you know, how I'm going to get back to restoration. I'd say, does that sound feasible? Does that sound like something that I'm. Is that. Am I thinking of this? Right? And you'd be like, oh, well, if you thought about this, like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. That's a really good.

And having that second set of eyes on your action plan is going to be huge.

Oh, yeah.

So big.

Well, the fact that I'm on the faster scale means I'm probably blind to something in the first place because I got there, you know, I mean, like, forgetting priorities. And it's not as. As though we are intentionally saying, I wonder how I can work down the faster scale. This week I'm there and I'm not sure how. And so I make my assessment. But like you said, that second set of eyes is so valuable. And then I'm going to report on my commitment to change this week as I'm progressing forward every week to move further and further towards healthier lifestyles. How am I doing on that? And what do I need to do from here until group, from here until tomorrow that's going to be really making a positive change.

Now, something you just shared, Brian, might have caused a little concern for listeners when you talk about sharing the faster scale. They might think, oh, man, before I make every phone call, I've got to fill out my faster scale again. So are you talking about sitting down and writing it out, or is this more of a quick assessment of where I'm at?

Quick assessment, yeah. And for. For me, what I would do, because within our journals, we're supposed to be filling out our faster scale and doing a full evaluation once a week. So a lot of times when I would circle something, I'd write the date next to it. Like, I write Tuesday, Friday, Saturday. And so then at the end of my week, and I'm not filling out the whole thing, I'm just saying, all right, I'm in black and white thinking right now, you know, and so, you know, why, you know, know, how does it affect me? How does it affect important people in my life? I go through all of that, and I don't need to write that. I'm just going to tell the person on the other side of the phone, my group member, and they're going to. They know me. They're going to know why I'm in black and white thinking, because I'm always there for the same reason. But at the end of the week, I can see that progression.

I can see.

Oh, yeah, you've mapped it out. Yep, exactly. Yeah. It makes that process of completing the entire faster scale much, much simpler. But this process of making a phone call really, like five minutes out of my day, it should not be that much.

Yeah. I try to emphasize that for guys that don't think this isn't half an hour, this isn't an hour to hash through everything that, that I might share my portion in two or three minutes, and if they're busy that's the other thing I try to encourage, is that if the person you call, it's the middle of their day and they are busy, they might say, hey, thanks for sharing. I'll talk to you later. That I'm not obligated if you call me to also share my commitment because I might not be ready to do that. And that, I think, helps group members realize, oh, I can. If Brian's calling me and I see it's Brian, I don't have to go, oh, shoot, am I ready to check in?

Sure.

It's not about me, it's about Brian. Because Brian's calling.

Yeah.

So I answer and go, hey, Brian, how's it going? And Brian shares. And then I might say, all right, see you at group. And then it's still on me to make my phone call to report my change. But sometimes if I'm also ready, I might, after you're done, say, well, thanks for sharing that, Brian. Could I talk about my week? And if Brian has time, he says.

Sure, Because Brian might be needing to go too.

Yeah, yeah. And then so you can have, you know, two for one kind of there that, oh, I got my phone call done, and they got theirs done. But if guys and gals realize five minutes is enough to do your calls or a call that can help say, oh, I've got five minutes, I can do it.

Right.

I think there's another piece of that too. And this. This comes up frequently in groups. I've had group members ask this question, is it okay to have a limit? Is it okay to say, I've got five minutes? We do have those group members who haven't shared life with people much and leading through the faster scale. They want to tell you about the fishing trip, and they want to tell you about how their project at home is doing. And so we would, in our group, we would joke and we would say, that's an interesting comment, or that's an interesting question, but what does that have to do with a faster scale? And everybody knew. It wasn't a shaming comment, but everybody knew. Okay, we're getting a little off track. Let's make sure we stay on track. Now, if you have the time and the interest and this is a good friend, go for it. But understand, you're under no obligation and neither is the group member you're talking to to accommodate the normal ongoings of life. This is really about recovery, and it shouldn't. Like you said, five minutes is really enough. Yeah.

Making it doable and realistic for everybody's week. So, Brian, one of the things we get asked about is from people that have maybe been through other recovery experiences. And I think 12 steps is probably the most familiar. And In a typical 12 step group, you don't call group members. You have a sponsor, and you might call that sponsor every day. So for a man or woman, that's, that's their background and they're feeling like, well, I know my leader, Julie, and can I just call her three times a week?

It's so comfortable. Why?

What would you encourage someone? The value of calling multiple people and, you know, over the course of a few weeks, being able to connect with everyone in your group versus just having that one person you call three times a week.

Yeah, you really have to think about a recovery group, whether it's the seven Pillars or Betrayal and beyond or eight Pillars as an ongoing process. So if, and I'll tell guys that get into my group, I'll say, if you want to see real change, you've probably been through the Conquer series. You've probably heard most of what you're going to read about in seven Pillars. For the groups I've led, Conquer series is the information. Seven pillars is the application. And when I say application, it takes a while to apply multiple codes. So in the first year, we're going to see some very big behavioral changes. We will see group members change how they think and how they act because they're in this community of people around them. I tell all of my group members, my hope and my goal for you is in the second year, you're going to lead a group. Because when you lead a group, it is an entirely different experience. You begin to recognize from more objective point of view how other people are saying, seeing life because they're just starting and you're a little further down the road, you have sobriety, you begin to see this is not about sexual addiction or whatever struggle I have with the most terrifying thing in my life that's creating addiction. This is an ongoing process that affects how I do life. And so my hope is that you'll be in a group. You'll lead a group, and beyond that, you will always want to be in a community of people who know everything about you and love you all the time. And so in spite of all your stuff. So if we think about that, that means that getting attached to one person as my sponsor is not a really healthy thing. It can almost be a code. I'm not saying it's totally unhealthy, but it can be codependent. Because now I am Relying on that person for my health. I would much rather rely on my ability to be vulnerable with new people as I see them becoming safe in my life. I don't want to be vulnerable with everybody. That might not be healthy, but I want to. As I start to expose some of my weaknesses and I see empathy and I see understanding and love, here's another person I can be vulnerable with. And my goal is that I'm not just vulnerable with the people in my group, but that extends beyond my group. So this is an ongoing thing that has to happen.

Yeah, I think that's really good understanding. That's good, Brian.

Well, and something that you mentioned earlier with being a part of the body, sometimes if I call one person, like if I'm a hand in the body of God and that person's a hand as well, it's like I'm getting the same perspective from one person, but maybe there's eyes and there's different guys with different giftings, different temperaments, different perspectives, even different convictions maybe. And those people, those men and women in group can help us reorient our perspective and give us new, really a new look at maybe where we're at and on the faster scale where we're at in our commitment to change. And so the variety that's mixed in with that, I think is beneficial for.

Us or the other danger, if we're only checking in with one person, is that voice of accusation that can say, well, that's just them. You know, they're just a really special person. But if other people knew, they'd reject, they'd. And so we can actually stay in isolation because we've only created one connection. But we haven't really learned to trust.

People, people and to trust our group.

It's weird that you can. Even if you're reaching out to one person, that can still be a form of isolation groups. That's right. Okay, so what are Brian, Some tips to making phone calls? I mean, so instead of maybe making encouragements like we like to end really every episode, what are just some tips that you would give to making phone calls a priority?

Sure. And a lot of these we've kind of reviewed already, but just to be very, very specific. And these are keys that I tell every guy in group and I would encour every person in their group, men and women, Encourage the people in your group to do these things. Number one, accountability is your responsibility. You've got to own it. Accountability software works when you own it. It doesn't when you assume that it's Somebody else's problem, or if you have no group members, you can have an accountability software. And if you're not reporting anything to anybody, it's pretty useless. I don't expect my group members to call and say, brian, I'm checking in. How are you doing? That's not my goal. My goal is I need to make it a priority to check in with someone and make sure I'm on the right track, make sure that my perspective is clear, make sure that I am staying focused and present in what I've set out to do this week in group. Also, you've got to plan ahead. Every time we have group and we do our commitment to change, I don't care how tight we are on time, I tell my guys, listen, okay, you might not be done with your commitment to change. Now, we ran a little long this week. The homework is a little full. Let's figure out who we're going to call. Let's do that. And then if, if we don't have time, finish our commitment to change. Make your first call communicating, this is my commitment to change this week, and let's do it today or tomorrow, one of the two. So have that plan. And that's where the journal for all of our groups is so valuable because it's right there. You just, okay, I'm going to call you Joe. Okay, Trevor, I'm going to call you. You know, and a lot of times we have people that struggle with that. It's like I just can't get in the rhythm or I forget. And so one of the encouragements, something else I would encourage to do is three is the minimum if you need to. I've had guys that this is the trick for them. Like, I try calling and I forget or I just get busy. Like, we'll call every day. Just call every day, set an alarm on your phone, say, I got a call and nobody in groups can. There's just hopefully, you know, at least four or five, six of us in here. Nobody's gonna get annoyed with two calls from you. I think it's gonna be okay. And in some of the, some of the groups I've been in more recently, we just decided, look, we're just gonna call somebody by a day. It's just a little easier that way. I don't have to think about it same time every day. I just, you know, six o', clock, I'm gonna make my call. No big deal. Be vulnerable. That's another big thing. Expect to just be open to be honest. Expect that you're not gonna be judged that this person is here to help you. They are there to. And if you're on the other side of the call, please don't judge. You know, don't. Don't say, well, you know what you ought to do?

Don't fix each other.

Don't fix each other. Follow the group guidelines and listen. And, you know, and maybe that's all you need to do. Maybe all you need to do is listen. If you feel like there's something you need to point out, just say, can I give you feedback or are you interested? And if they're not, say that's cool. I really appreciate you calling me. Thanks for. Thanks for checking in. And then my. My biggest don't is calling three people the same day, especially the day before. Group does not count. So it's kind of like doing your homework in the parking lot, you know?

Sure.

It's better than nothing.

Is better than nothing.

I told guys that, hey, it's better than nothing, but that should not be your plan.

Yeah, we get in this pattern, like, my groups are usually on Tuesday, and we get in this pattern of, like, you know, Tuesday, I'm doing great. Wednesday's pretty good. Thursday, I forgot I'm in a seven pillars group. And then come Sunday, like, oh, my gosh, I gotta get my homework done and make some calls. It's Monday morning and stay in the routine. We're scrambling to get out, and I think it's less. There have been some weeks that have just been really tough to carve out time for me. And I know my other group members would say the same, but it's more about, I think, the frequency than the intensity or the duration of time. Even if I have 20 minutes a day to do something related to my recovery, whether it's doing a little bit of homework, maybe I'll get all of it done, or maybe I can just read and not get to the homework. But I got that in today. It brings my presence and awareness back to, oh, yeah, I'm working on restoration. I'm working on trusting God and not trusting myself in the moment and having that daily as opposed to a ton of it two days of the week. It makes a world of difference.

Let me add something, because this has been something recently in my life that I've realized is a pattern. And it was something that when I first got into groups, I realized that I ended up taking advantage of the time that I had available. So when I was on my way home from the church, and I still do it now, I have a 30 minute drive home. I take advantage of the time that's already in my day that's open for those. So don't try to wake up at 6:30 or 5:30 and call somebody like, you know, we had Robert Vandermeer on here, you know, a few episodes ago and he talks about like the lazy man's thing. It's like find a time that you already have that space and use that space. Don't try to recreate this like special moment in your day. And so for me that's been really, really fruitful and beneficial is. Cause I already have that built into my day and I can just take advantage of that time.

Yeah, I think that's. And that speaks to the awareness. I think opportunities are always there. It's whether we are going to recognize them or not. And, and honestly, you know, making a plan that's like, I remember listening to that episode with Bob. It was great. Making a plan that's realistic. You don't have to say I'm going to get up at 6 o' clock and get on because you know what, nobody else in your Group's up at 6, so don't worry about that.

Who wants to make a phone call?

Who wants to answer a phone call at 6?

It is amazing when you make that part of your week, that connection with guys just checking in, it becomes something you look forward to and want to do because, because it creates connection, it creates confidence and it gives you that feeling of I'm being accountable, I'm doing the right thing because we own it. And so I just encourage listeners if you're not in the pattern at first, it might be a discipline, but disciplines, when done well over time, become habits and that's what we hope will happen.

That's a great place to end. Thanks Brian for being here and talking to us about phone calls and we really appreciate you taking time out to hang out with us.

My pleasure.

Awesome. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcasts, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org. also you can follow us on social media uredesirepdmi. Once again, that is earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Sam.