016 - Tech Action Plan

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with Brian Roberts.

Hey, everybody.

And today we have Bob Vandermeer on the show. Bob, welcome back, my friend.

Hello.

Awesome. Okay, we're glad to have you back on the podcast. And today we're going to talk about creating a tech action plan, and it's something that you use in your counseling practice, is that correct?

Correct.

Awesome. So we're going to talk about it because putting healthy boundaries and practices into place when it comes to technology is obviously a super important thing today. We live in a world where technology is everywhere. And so this is an important piece to recovery and finding, healing. So we're gonna jump right in. Bob, let me just start with this, because you've used this in your counseling before. What is a tech action plan?

Yeah, I think for us, we use it as a tool to help people look at the way technology is being used in their life. You know, whether home, work, whatever, how technology has been beneficial or potentially harmful for their health. So particularly, obviously, we're talking about sex addiction, healthy sexuality, so how it has been incorporated into that aspect of their life.

Do you find that most guys that you counsel, most couples that you counsel, that this is something you end up talking about?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think maybe 10 years ago, there would have been a percentage of people that came into the counseling office that didn't use technology in their behavior. But now, I mean, most people are using technology in some form or another, whether it's messaging, another just live human being, or whether it's actually looking up sexual content online or whether it's finding out where they can go to go do something with another person. I mean, they're using technology in almost every. Even if they're using GPS to get there, they're still using technology.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you kind of pointed that out right off the bat. Like a lot of us, I think when we think about Internet addiction, we think about porn or, you know, just somebody being online too long. But this is a much broader expanse. This is like, you know, how are you communicating over the Internet and what different apps are using? So can you. Can you go a little deeper that why is it so important? And how do you. How do you help identify, like, specifically what. What goes into that plan?

Yeah, yeah. You've talked before about digital natives and Digital immigrants. And the fact that there is so much technology, either whether it's in, you know, with your smartphone or on your laptop or with your tablet, whatever, you know, it is with us where we go. But I think what's important about it is that we're not just saying, how do we stop looking at pornography? We're saying how as for most of us now as digital natives, or at least the generations that are coming up.

Meaning that we're always on the Internet. The Internet's always accessible to us in life.

Yeah, yeah. Digital natives, they grew up with it. They don't know anything else there.

They breathe. Yep.

Yeah. And so they're using technology all the time for everything, whether it's social media, staying in contact with their friends, actual videos, tag, texting, messaging, you know, or the apps that they're using. So I think it's. So it's super important, Brian, to answer your question, because we either use this to promote health in our life or we use it in ways that are either neutral or not helpful.

Right, sure. Okay. So what I hear you saying is that when we look at the Internet, and I've seen this before, and Trevor, you mentioned this, too, you talk about in this book, I think sometimes we have a tendency to sort of demonize technology or the Internet. And what I hear you saying, Bob, is that it's not so much that the Internet is wrong or it's evil, it's that we really get to choose how it's used. And so what it sounds like the importance here is that if I recognize how I'm using it, healthy or unhealthy, then I can start to make some assessments about it. It sounds like what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a much more concise way to say what I. Babbling on and on. Thank you, Brian. So basically, I think basically this is what we are confronted with. We either use it in our addiction or we use it to promote health. We either use it to create isolation, or we can use it to actually bring connection with other people. And so what the tech action plan does is makes people face reality about how they are using technology. And so, like, this time of year, guys are like, well, no, it's my fantasy football app. Well, guess what? Your fantasy football app also has a browser in it and also allows you to go and look at pornography. So guess what, guys? Get rid of that app. Like, now, the people that are listening to this that just heard me say that, which I shouldn't have said that, by the way, because now you're like, oh, really? I can do that? Yeah, just get rid of it. You don't need it. Like fantasy football, you want to do the old fashioned way, have guys come over to your house, draw it up on a whiteboard, like hang out face to face.

Right. But part of that too, you know, you bring that up and you say, oops, I just said that out loud. But at the same time, health is not avoiding all of just, it's not just avoiding all the things that are gonna trip you up. It's learning how to be healthy in your everyday life. And so it's not like you, you know, can't ever be on Instagram. It's can I be on Instagram and be healthy? And if the answer is no, then get rid of it.

Absolutely.

You know, and so I think it's not something that we. Because here's the thing, at any point anybody has a computer, we have, you know, Internet access, we have phones, we have all. You can go to the library and look up porn if you want like that'. And so the reality is we can't escape technology. And gosh, as I'm saying this, I'm thinking James Cameron knew exactly what he was doing with Skynet. It's like the Internet and the robots are taking over, but we can't really escape technology.

Yeah. So can we use it in a way that it's going to be healthy then?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so when creating a tech action plan, which I think is important to say right now, that it's essential that every person who really is just trying to be a healthy person anyways, whether you're struggling with sexual addiction or not, having a plan on how to use your tech, how to use your phone and your computer is really important for just emotional, emotional health. So, but let's just say for those who are listening, who are struggling with pornography, masturbation, struggling sexually, what should a tech action plan, what should it cover? What topics should be covered in that?

Yeah, you should cover what devices you use. So, you know, computer, tablet, smartphone, it should cover where those devices are being used, home or work. And then at home, is it in your room, Is it in the living room, is it in the bathroom? And then you should also cover what types of websites you have regularly gone to that have been detrimental to your health. It should cover the apps that you use and have used historically. You know, even if you're like, well, you know, I used to use that. You know, I'm never on Facebook anymore, I'm only on Instagram. Now, so Facebook's not a problem. I haven't been on there and you know, like five months, however, six months ago. Yeah, every day that you got on Facebook, it was a problem. So we want to look at historically what things have been problems. Not just websites, but also apps. Yeah. And then are those things that are currently on a device that you have. Are those devices currently have any sort of software that's going to help maintain sobriety, structure, you know, things like that, accountability. So, you know, it's really devices, websites, apps, and then what things are still accessible and available to use?

You know, as you're talking about that, Bob, especially the idea like Facebook, you know, it used to be an issue, now it's not. I've heard. I've heard guys say that, or this app, you know, this game I used to play was a problem, and these new games I'm playing are not a problem. So looking for similarities, but it all sounds like there needs to be a frequency with a review of this sort, like, because apps change and they develop over time, you know, I mean, Snapchat's a great example of an app that's changed significantly from its inception to where it's at today, and now it's not. So, you know, such a bad app, I guess. Although, you know, there's. There's still a lot of features on it I don't think are appropriate for everybody. So what would you say about a good frequency or understanding? I mean, how often should we look at that?

Yeah, well, I think once you do a tech action plan and do, like, this kind of assessment, you'll kind of hit a reset button and a lot of times say, like, and, you know, we'll. I know we're going to plan on talking about this later, but a lot of times, like with a smartphone. Okay, is a smartphone okay for you to have or not? Is it healthy? Is it, Is it, Is it adding something to what youth consider to be health? So connection, intimacy, friendship, accountability, things like that. And if not, then, okay, how do we whittle this down? So let's just say you hit the reset button and get it down. So you only have apps that do not have internal browsers. You only have apps that are beneficial for your health, emotionally, relationally, spiritually. You only have things that, that are safe, in a sense, for you to use in your health. You know, they help you reach your goals.

Right.

In life and in recovery. Well, so then from there, moving forward, anytime you want to add a new app, I think that's a great time to kind of reconsider what's going, going on. And also if you, if you're in a group where you're, you know, weekly checking in, you'll, if you're checking in honestly, then you'll say, oh, you know what, this hasn't been a problem for me, but I just discovered a new.

Feature or something on it. So it's more like, let's pull the list out and check it again. When things change, it's almost like you have to have this self awareness going on. And I think that just underlines, like you said, the value of group, because usually we're not really so quick to notice that, but our group members are. And so, yeah, if we have that ready and available, when something goes sideways, you would hope a group member is like, well, wait a second, where's that fit on your tech action plan? And you're like, oh, you know, it's not on there. Or it is, but I need to change that because that wasn't an issue before and now that they have this feature, that's a problem.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so as a timetable, I'd say reevaluate it monthly and then also re evaluate it. If you add an app or if you add a device, would you include.

The spouse in that? Like, if you were in, if you're in recovery right now and your spouse is going through that journey with you, would you include your spouse in that tech action plan?

Yeah, I mean, I would think that your family would be involved in the tech action plan. That's something that, Brian, you've done really well with your family to say these are our goals as a family in using technology.

Yeah, yeah, we do that a lot. I mean, one of the things I would say for us as a family is we try to get our kids to follow it and then we're kind of following their lead. I mean, we're helping define within our family what our values are. And we're asking our kids and sort of reflecting like, well, do you think this, do you think this app matches our family values?

Yeah.

And they're like, gosh, no, that's no good. So, okay, well, that one's got to go.

Well, I think too, with all of it, you need to figure out, is it something that's causing you to isolate? You know, because that's a question I've started to ask is, you know, is this app, is this game, is this. You know, because it's not just apps. It can be games that you play on your phone or on your gat. Like, it could be Xbox, could be. Whatever it is. And if it's pushing you deeper and deeper into isolation, that's when you start to break community, and that's when you become susceptible to making bad decisions. Let's be honest. No great decision has been made when you're in isolation. Like, isolation just breeds more shame and isolation. And so I've come to understand that I need to, you know. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, my phone is a struggle for me, and not necessarily, like, I've found some healing sexually. But what I mean is, when I come home, it's easy for me to sit on the couch and just browse through Facebook and Instagram and Snapchat and whatever else, you know, I have, or YouTube even. But the reality is, I realize that I'm isolating. I'm distancing myself. Even though I'm sitting next to my wife and my son's sitting on the ground, I still realize, like, oh, shoot, I'm. I'm isolating. Like, I'm not with my family. I'm not spending time with them. And so even. And honestly, just this last week, I started leaving my phone in my room. Like, when I come home, I just leave it in our room and then go out into the front room and just spend time. And at first, there's that, like, tension, like, oh, I missed my phone. What if someone's gonna text me? But then after about 20 minutes, I don't care. I just release it and it's done. And I'm realizing that's a healthy practice for me.

I remember that. Next time you don't text me back.

I was gonna say, now I know how you.

Good.

Now I know why I don't get ahold of me if it's not work. I just can't get her to return his calls. Yeah. What would you tell a guy, Bob? Because, I mean, this is a really big piece, the cell phone. But you counsel a lot of people. And at this point, you know, there's. There's a. There's a great commitment level on their part to say, I'm, you know, I'm going to group. But, you know, maybe it's a lot of trauma or maybe the addiction is. Is really out of control, and I. I know I need counseling. What do you tell guys who are like, wait, what? Give up my. My smartphone?

How?

Yeah, you know, but. But we know that that's such a dangerous tool because the phone itself, you know, you could look at a tv, and that's clearly designed for Multiple people to watch.

Sure.

You could look at, you know, other media devices, and they're. And they're engaging. But a smartphone is literally for the individual user experience. It is the most pure form of isolation we know right now. What. What do you tell guys?

Definitely don't just start watching porn with friends on your phone. That's not the answer. That's not the answer.

Please let me write that one down. Got it. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, Trevor, what you said about leaving your phone somewhere, I mean, as a family, like to say, hey, as a family, we get home, our phone goes on the kitchen counter.

Yeah.

You know, and then we're spending time together. There's a lot of clients that come in that are. That are playing games, you know, when they get home. And the game is innocuous. Like, it's not. It's not morally right or wrong. The game isn't. However, you know, they're not being present with their family. And so I think what I heard you asking Brian was like, so, you know, what do we do, like, with this? So as a family, sit down and say, what's important to us? Like, is being present important? Then we're gonna set our phones down. Like, we're not gonna bring them to the dinner table. You know, we're not gonna be engaged in a conversation. And when I feel my pocket vibrate, pull my phone out and check it, even though I'm still talking to you, you know, things that are helping us to stay present. Um, but ultimately, you know, we're still not saying, like earlier that this is evil, that technology is not evil. Rock and roll is not evil.

Right.

It's important to say, yeah, yes, dancing is not evil. So what we're saying is, how do we use this still in a way that is going to be beneficial?

Well, and I think too, with that is setting up healthy practices. And, and part of that is communication with your spouse or with your family is like. Because sometimes it's okay. Like, the other day, my brother just bought me Madden 18. I love football. I love playing the game. And it's not bad for me to want to go play it, but am I wanting to go play it because I'm wanting to avoid a hard conversation with my wife? Or I don't want to, you know, dish out the emotional energy it takes to parent my kid? But if it's okay. And I've, you know, I've checked, I've checked my family, Are we good? Is it okay if I go do this? And my wife's like, of course, like, where does chill and it's okay, then that's a healthy practice. I have gone through the proper channels to make sure I'm not isolating. And then it's okay for me to go play it.

Sure. Yeah. One of the things that we recommend is to set a time up. Like if. If you feel that this is something you enjoy doing and your spouse doesn't, you know, your spouse agrees. Okay, yeah, this is cool. This is something I'm okay with you doing. Just set a time for it.

Yeah.

Like, okay, then I'm going to do this for a half hour, you know, from whatever 7:30 to 8 or whatever it is, but just as a family. You pick that time because otherwise. Where's dad? Oh, he's. He's disappeared. Where's Mom? You know, she's so. She's hiding, you know, playing whatever game she's playing.

Because you can be a physically present parent or spouse, but that doesn't mean you're emotionally present. So just because you're in the same room doesn't mean you're connecting with your family and you're building healthy relationships.

Yeah.

So I think scheduling a time has helped some people because then it's like, we've agreed on this. Nobody's bitter about it, because we corporately agreed on what time and that this.

Was okay to do, but presents a value to it too. Like if you say, wait a second, I'm spending, even if I've scheduled it, I'm spending four hours playing this game that I. That I get completely engrossed in and an hour with my kids, something's up, you know, half hour to four hours. Okay. You're not. Not the other way around. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So we've established, though, that, that those things are not by themselves sinful or wrong. All right. But let's just say we want to start creating healthy practices. One of the things that is available today is safety softwares that you can get. So I want to open this up to both of you. You know, Brian, you've got a background in some of this stuff too, is. What would you guys say are some practical safety softwares for men and women to get on any of their devices?

Well, I would say, you know, when you're looking at your devices, it's amazing how many things are available to you. So filters should just be. Bottom line. That should happen. No. You know, so if you use a music service, go in the settings and turn off explicit lyrics. You know, if you use Google, turn on Safe Search. That's Available on safe search. It's basically if you use YouTube, turn on Restricted mode, and what you're really doing, you have to understand, as we talked about this in the digital natives episode, but the Internet's advertising to you and your valuable market space, the Internet. So what you're really doing, when you establish a filter on any service and you should look at every service you use, do you have filtering capability to remove explicit material that I don't want to see? I mean, maybe I do in my addictive mind, but in my right mind, I don't want to see this. Internet companies respond to that. They don't. They're going to advertise to you, but they don't advertise something you don't want. So I would say the first thing right off the bat is any service that you're using or app that you're using, if there is a filtering capability that should just be on, period. Because you're basically saying, I don't want to see this. The other thing I look at is in the accountability apps, and there's a variety of them, but you should have something and it should meet some basic requirements. It should have at least two other people that are viewing your reports. The report should be understandable. I tell guys in group all the time, when you get your accountability report, open the thing just because it says all good. Well, one of the things we look for in accountability reports too is that maybe nobody's using their device this week, and every other week they use their device like crazy. So odds are, unless they, you know, went to some wilderness camp, they're probably still using the Internet, but they're not using the ones that's being monitored. You know, I mean, the easiest way around an accountability app or filter is go use a different computer, go to the library like you said.

Right.

So, you know, within an accountability app, make sure reporting is there. Make sure you have people who will follow up and look at your report. Ports. And then the other thing that you have to do is basically make sure it works on every device. Like, if you're going to have an iPhone, make sure you have a system that works on your phone. I can't tell you number of people are like, well, I'd use an app on my iPhone, but you know, it doesn't work for that. It's like, well, then either get a different phone or get a different app, but don't set yourself up for something that isn't going to do what's intended to do. If you're going to be Accountable. Make sure you're accountable across the board.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if, if health is something that you want to take seriously, then you are going to be willing to go to whatever length you need to go to. So, I mean, I have friends that, that I have set the, the restriction password on their phone, so if they want to add an app or they need to update an app, they, they come to me, I unlock it, and guess what? We get to hang out for 10 minutes.

Yeah.

While they're doing whatever they're doing. Yeah. And then I lock it back down again.

Yeah.

Uh, but it's, it's. They've chose to do that. They're not being punished. This isn't punitive. Like, they didn't do something wrong. They're saying, I want to maintain this level of health.

Yeah.

And this is what. I'm willing to do that. Whatever length I'm willing to go to, to do that. And then another thing I would say is the people that you do pick to receive your accountability reports also make sure that those people aren't going to be put in harm's way in their own recovery by getting that report.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, my father in law has been receiving my accountability report for, for like, almost 10 years. And like, one, I know that it's not putting him in harm's way by getting it. And two, I also don't want my father in law. Like, this is good motivation for me to, you know, but, but I hear.

You saying, don't make your wife accountability partner, especially if you're currently struggling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let me ask this question, because it's something I've had a couple conversations with, with staff and with other guys, you know, in my groups and some of the counselors as well, is eventually you want to get to the point where you're not leaning on filters to maintain your sobriety and your health. Like, at first, they're great tools, but you eventually want to get to the point where you're able to practice healthy sexuality and being healthy emotionally without this stuff. Would you guys agree with that?

I think that the filter is pretty much always good to have.

Okay.

I think that the longer that you're in recovery, the accountability part is what becomes more important even than the filter. And the accountability says that I'm looking at this knowing that somebody else is going to see that. I looked at it.

Yeah.

And so it's, you know, it's living visibly because, because then there's a, there's accountability. I mean, it's like, okay, if, if You're. I don't know, think about parenting. Like, if you're at the grocery store and you're gonna yell at your kid, you know that other people are gonna hear you yell at your kid as opposed to yelling at your kid at home.

Yeah.

Where.

So it's kind of like saying, I'm gonna choose to do this, and I know that other people are gonna see it. And, like, that's. That's walking in the light, you know, in a sense, like, that's being visible, I think. But I think that early on, especially the filter is like, let's just. Let's make sure that we're limiting the damaging behavior. Because. Because they're without that filter. I mean.

Yeah.

It's going to be the same thing every week when they come to group.

Yeah.

I just felt like it was an.

Important question, and I've had people ask me that, too. I've had guys in group that have been, you know, leaders for two, three years. And one of the guys is like, my wife. It was actually his wife asked about it because they were doing their budget. He says, well, should I keep doing this? It's, you know, like, 50 bucks a year. And I said, you know, you guys could talk about it. It's great that your wife feels that comfortable. I mean, she's clearly not concerned that you're going to act out this way. I said, but for me, personally, I just want everybody in my family to see the example that, like, whatever I do online, you get to know about online. You know, I mean, I know I'd send my accountability report to my kids, but they know that I have other people who look at that, and they know that they could walk up to any computer I'm on, pull up the history, and that should not be a problem in our house. You know, that. That shouldn't be an issue. That made me think of one other thing, too. That's really important. It's just. Just a good note. And we have this question asked a lot in groups. So, like, if I'm going through someone's accountability report and there's something that's questionable or highly questionable, I don't want to click on it, because I don't want to. Yeah. And so that's a. That's a question I get a lot. And so I want to throw that out there and I'll just give my answer. You guys can hop in. But I always say, don't click on it. Just make a list of the stuff and bring it to group and say, hey, what was this because the guy's going to know, like, oh, yeah, it was this site. You don't have to click on it. And maybe it's nothing, you know, nothing. Maybe he's like, well, I don't know. I'll go find out and get back to you. Like, okay, fine, because you're the one clicked on it. I didn't. I don't need to go there. I don't need to see that.

Well, it's interesting what, what Satan is going to try to use to trick you up. So I'm trying to click this so I know exactly.

Accountability partners.

I'm trying to help this guy out. That's why I'm clicking on it. When in reality it's like, oh, crap, then I just acted out because I looked at it. So I just think that that's important, you know, to echo, what you're saying is that self awareness when you're getting into it is obviously huge.

Well, with our kids too, I mean, there's plenty of times I just. My son is, you know, he's very creative and he's very tech savvy. And there's lots of times I'm like, buddy, what is this site? And I mean, he finds some pretty amazing things online. He found a new programming site I'd never seen before, and it was just like, it was cool that it was a normal conversation. Even I had no idea what the website was.

Yeah, yeah. Another one that guys will say, well, you know, I got. I put the filter on or the accountability software on, and I just wanted to check and make sure it was working. Dude, do not.

Is this on?

Yeah, don't check that. Don't check that. It just believe it's working.

And that's a great. We have. So let's just get into this, this next. This loophole question then, because it's important to talk about.

So, yeah, finding loopholes, that just seems to be part of, you know, our DNA. What do you. What do you tell a guy when it's like, you know, he's either his group is saying, well, you went around this, or it seems like you're intentionally not trying to use this or what. What is your response to that?

Yeah, I mean, I think on a good tech action plan, there will be even the question of, hey, what loopholes are you already planning on trying to be honest?

What have you used in the past?

Yeah, and. And that's going to bring up. The second thing is they're only going to be as successful in their health and recovery as they're willing to be honest.

Yeah.

So, you know, if they, if they're not willing to be honest about what they're already thinking about doing, then, I mean, that's going to be their. Their thing. And then they're going to keep coming back with the same issue, you know. Well, this week it was a different phone. This week it was a different tablet. This week it was the same tablet, but it was this thing. This week they had to restore something. I mean, you know, they're always. There's always going to be that thing. But I think if we're willing to be rigorously honest like this journey requires us to be, then we'll say, yeah, you know what? I think this is how I might try and go around it. And some guys like, well, I don't want to think about how I'm going to do it. Well, no, I think it actually might be proactive to say, how might you try and get around this? What are the things you're going to try and do? Because now it's not this secret.

Well, there's an awareness to that too, in that when you're, when you're going there. Like, I've had guys say, well, yeah, I struggled, you know, using a VPN or a proxy or some way to get past a gateway. And I'm like, that's great. That way you recognize, like, maybe you can't use a vpn. Maybe you're going to have to go in the office and actually do the work instead of trying to remote in so you're still on the same network. Like, that might be something you have to do. And I've had other group leaders who will come to me, and they're like, we've got an IT guy. We don't know what to do because we have no idea if he's going to act out or, like, we wouldn't even know if he did, you know. Yeah. And I think that's a great question to ask. Like, well, if you were to do it, well, what would you do? Because we're not, you know, super tech savvy here in our group. We know you are. And then we'll know what kind of questions to ask you.

Yeah, yeah. Because if you're not thinking about it now, being proactive about it, then guaranteed, you know, 10:30 on Thursday night, when you're alone in your room and you've just eaten, you know, half a pint of ice cream, like, you're gonna find it. Like, you're gonna sit there and search for hours until you find A way around it.

Yeah, yeah. Which is so funny because that's what I used to do when I was 12 and 13 and my dad had be safe, secure on our like, I would, I would find any way I could around it. And I remember, I've said this on a couple podcasts before that I had one of my dad's best friends, I remember him saying he'll never walk into a blockbuster anymore because it caused him to stumble. And I remember thinking, how ridiculous is that, bro? Just like, you'll be alright man. Just walk in. You can rent a movie without, you know, sinning sexually. And you know, the more self aware I've become and the more I've learned, I understand you got to do whatever is necessary to protect yourself. And it's important to put those practices and those things into place. Like, you know, personally, you know, Twitter has been a thing for me that is really difficult to stay pure on. And so I just, I've taken it off my phone, but I have to manage our social media accounts here at work. And so I set it up to where the only way I can access it is on my work computer, which it has filtering stuff on it and has reporting stuff on it. I share an office with someone, my door is always open. And so I have set things in place to protect myself that basically is going to hold me accountable and is going to make sure people know. So being able to just do whatever is necessary to protect yourself is so, so big.

Yeah.

Alright, so we've talked about creating the action plan. We've talked about what it should cover. We talked about some ways that you know, you're in a healthy place as far as the way you relate to your tech and your gear. And then we've talked about really ways to monitor that stuff. But what are some tips that you would just give somebody who, okay, they've listened to this episode, they're like, great, this is an awesome idea. I really need to put this thing into place. What would be some tips for someone who's starting a tech action plan?

I'd say sit down and have an honest, like realistic look just at technology in your life. Because a lot of guys, a lot of people don't realize how big of a role technology has been playing until they actually sit down and go through each of those things, the websites, the apps, and say, is this useful? Is this harmful? Is this neutral? Because until they do that, they're just like, well, no, how could this possibly be bad? I'm just, it's a news app. You Know, I even had somebody that. Their. Their Bible app, they realized had a browser.

Wow.

And they started. And it's like, so let's just think about the. The.

That one through the applications.

They're a little scary.

Yeah, yeah.

But. But it's. It's just to say, all right, let's. Let's go through all of these and just. And take an honest, realistic look. I mean, it's like keeping your house safe for your kids. Go through. Are there. You know, our daughter just turned one. Are there covers on all the outlets? Because she will stay, try and stick something in there. You know what I mean? Like, are the knives out of reach? Like, is. We put a rail around our front porch on Saturday because our daughter will fall off of the front porch. So just to take your technology and take an honest look at it, take the time to do it with somebody else.

And what you're speaking about, though, is quit thinking of yourself as Superman. Like, you're not the one who, like, this stuff is kryptonite to you. Be realistic. This is going to happen. And so putting stuff in place to help you. And I think it's interesting and important to realize that, like, to God, we are. We are Carmelo. We are these little kids who will run off the end and the edge if we don't have things that are put in place. And so being humble enough to say, you know what? Like, I can't do this on my own. I really need help of some other people. I need the support of my spouse or my pastors or my group.

Yeah. And the other thing that I'd say is to find ways that you can use your technology that are helpful to you.

Yeah.

Because there are apps, like, there are things that you can do that you can use your technology for on your smartphone or whatever, to be able to. To work towards being healthy.

Yeah.

And, you know, just. Because if we just look at this as. As how do we lock this down so that it's not safe, then we are in a sense saying that technology is evil. But if we say, how can we use this in a way that's going to be beneficial towards the goals that we have?

The.

Then it becomes all the way, all of a sudden something that is a part of our recovery instead of a hindrance to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had a group member that. It was interesting when you were talking about that. He put it really well. He said, I didn't think I'd have to mourn losing porn. Like, I didn't think I'd be so Sad when it wasn't there and he'd done a really good job. He still had a smartphone because there was a work application that was on his phone. He had to have. It was just part of the. Part of his job. And yet we. We really work through locking things down. He gave somebody else's password, and in our group, actually a couple of us, and. And so he came across the time where it's like life hit him hard one day and he pulled out his phone and porn wasn't there. Like, he just knew, one, I can't get to it. Two, if I try to do something.

Praise the Lord, that that was the case.

Exactly. And two, if I try to do something, they're gonna know. And. And so he said, I grabbed my faster scale, I filled it out and I texted somebody and I thought, what a great use of this technology because, you know, it really is. I don't think anybody who designed the smartphone thought, man, it's gonna be awesome for watching porn. I think it was probably like, this is an amazing way to communicate with people.

Yeah.

You know, this is kind of the best of what we could hope for, this device. And here he is. I mean, it is sad that. That he says, well, I can't just numb out anymore, but at least I can do something positive with it. So I love what you're saying about that, Bob, that even though we've made some poor choices in our lives, it doesn't mean that we can't still live in this culture in this day and age and not have healthy influence from a different point of view.

So, Brian, another tip that I would give, and I heard this from a guy at the conference at the outer men's conference. He said, you know, setting it up to where his wife had the password for him to update or download any new apps. And I think that what. What that made me think about and something that I'm trying to implement in my life is the more specific that I am about the things that have tripped me up, the more aware I become, and the more aware I become, the more healthy I'm going to become. And so when I am specific and I am aware and I let other people know about that, it just. It helps me understand what health actually looks like. Because the reality is we're not escaping tech. Like, tech is just going to get crazier and crazier. And as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking, you know, it's a perfect example of Daniel in the Bible. You are in the world. You are in this stuff, but you're not of the world. Yeah. So, Bob, any last thoughts? Any. Any more tips, any encouragements to anybody out there who has been struggling with tech and is looking for ways to get healthy?

Yeah, I was going to say that if you are. If it is 10:30 on a Thursday night and you're eating ice cream, I'd recommend Tillamook Rocky Road.

And maybe Perfect. If it's a. If it's a whole pint, maybe there's another addiction going on.

Yeah, yeah. But the Tillamook Rocky Road. Yeah, yeah, they use egg yolk in it. It's creamier.

That's great.

Yeah, it's really good.

That's great.

I think you really just summed it up well, Trevor, to say, like, let's. Let's make this precise. Like, let's talk about, like, exact things. Precise things. Let's not make this vague, but let's, like, actually look at what this is point by point and go through it. Because otherwise we are. We are gonna. We're gonna miss something unintentionally, but intentionally. Like, if we aren't intentional about, like, locking this down, figuring out a way to not only stop things that are unhealthy, but also promote things that are healthy, then we are, you know, we are choosing to. To let loopholes exist.

Yeah, guys, I think that this was probably one of the more needed episodes that we've had, so I appreciate you guys sitting around and talking about it. Thanks.

Yeah, for sure.

Awesome. And thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also, you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that is EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast, and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.