017 - Recovery Action Plan (Safety Plan)

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Trevor, I'm a big fan. It's good to be back.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And we are joined today by Ashley Jamison. Ashley, thanks for hanging out with us again today.

Thanks for having me.

Awesome. Okay, well, we're glad to have you back on the podcast. Today we're gonna talk through creating something we call a Recovery Action Plan, also known as the Safety Plan. For those that have heard of that, that's what we'll be talking about today. And we see that relapse, it happens on the journey to freedom from addiction. And creating a Recovery Action Plan is a great and really helpful tool for that journey if relapse is a possibility. So let's just get going real quick. Let me ask you guys this. Why do we have two different names for this tool? I mean, like I said in the intro, it's the Recovery Action Plan and also the Safety Plan. Why do we have two different names? And what exactly is this plan?

Well, the reason why we changed the name from Safety Plan to Recovery Action Plan is because we were getting some calls from group leaders that really didn't understand the word safe. And I can even address that in my own personal situation that when I first read the Safety Plan, although my husband was addicted to pornography and relapsed, he was still the safest person I had ever been with. He wasn't violent. He didn't cuss at me, he didn't throw things at me. And so it just didn't really resonate with me that my husband was unsafe. And it also was kind of offensive to him. Although we understand what the meeting is, that it's what creates safety in your marriage and what brings reconciliation. I think right off the bat, when people, especially if they don't have a counselor to explain it to them when they first read that, it can kind of be off putting. And we didn't want that to distract people from what's in it that's so good. So we decided that the name Recovery Action Plan would be better because it really is just a plan that you put in place after a relapse. And so it's getting you back towards recovery and reconciliation.

Yeah, it's a tool that our staff has been using for quite a while. And I think what we found is that a lot of people were reacting to the physical side of safety and would say, well, my marriage isn't unsafe in that way. But when we use safety plan, we wanted to think of it more as relational safety. That for someone to be a safe person means that you can trust them implicitly. You can know that their word is true and that they're looking out for your needs. And when someone is wrapped up in sexual addiction or really any kind of sexual bondage, in that sense, they really have become unsafe in their relationships because their word can't be trusted. You're not sure what else is going on. And. And the way that it violates a spouse's sense of intimacy and trust in the marriage really can leave them feeling shattered in that area. And so it was an accurate description. But Ashley's right on that. We didn't want to put a stumbling block in anyone's way to using this tool, because we find that this is one of the most crucial things every couple needs to have in place. And even singles can use to really become a deterrent from relapse. So, you know, in the intro, Trevor, when you say that relapse is a part of recovery, for many people it is, but it doesn't need to be, and we certainly don't want to accept it as well. It's going to happen once in a while, so no big deal. We find that when you have in place this recovery action plan, when you've determined ahead of time what you're going to do and how you'll respond when the relapse occurs, it actually becomes a huge deterrent to relapse. So if anyone is listening and feeling like they're on the recovery road, but they're still looking to get free and are struggling with it, and they don't have this kind of plan in place, this could be a real game changer for them. Cool.

So let me ask you this question then. I think, you know, you've established that this is something that anybody can do, whether you're married or single. But is it just something that the addicted spouse has to do, or are more people involved in this plan as well?

It really should be something that each individual in the marriage has. But a lot of times it's going to start with the addicted spouse with the addictive behaviors, that if. If somebody's in a group for addiction, then they would automatically want to create their own safety plan, recovery action plan. And if they have a spouse, then when their spouse is in group and they get to that point where they create their own, then they would want to come together and kind of look at them and compare. And if the addicted spouse says, I think if I relapse, I should sleep on the couch for three days or even seven days. And then the spouse is like, well, I think I really, for myself would. Would see it being four or eight. That's where they would talk about it outside of conflict and decide outside of conflict what it looks like to establish sobriety again and build trust again. And so it becomes a safe place to talk about it. But either person should have their own at any given time when they're in group.

And what we find in a lot of relationships, or at least some, is that the spouse who is not the addict or the one who is not struggling might be the one more ready to face it because of their hurt or sense of woundedness and betrayal. And so as they get into a group and understand a recovery action plan, it gives them a concrete tool to take to their spouse who is struggling and maybe isn't ready to face it yet and say it helps them find their voice. Because they can say, if you fall into this behavior, here are some things I'm going to need from you in order for me to regain trust in our relationship and to be at a place where I feel I can have intimacy with you. Whether that intimacy is emotional or physical. And it's helping the one who's struggling understand that their behavior has consequences. Because it does. There's the logical consequence that happens in relationship. That trust is broken. And so the spouse that is wounded or hurting gets some tools in hand so that they're not reactive, they're not punitive. But to say, if this behavior continues, here's some things I'm going to need in order to work on a relationship that can become the very motive that the spouse who is struggling needs to address their behavior and realize ahead of time, man, if I do this, here's the cost. And then when they find they still do it, even though there was a cost associated, that can become a wake up call for them to realize, I have something here I need to address.

So what I'm hearing you guys say, though, is that this is something whether. Let's just say that a betrayed spouse brings this recovery action plan, the safety plan, to their addicted spouse. At first, it maybe causes some friction. I could see where someone who's in the midst of addiction may be a little turned off by this idea, but ultimately this is something that's going to bring more unity over time in the marriage. Would you guys agree with that?

Absolutely. And one of the, I think one of the benefits I've seen is that when relapse happens, whether both are in group or not, decisions are made afterwards. So it's really just giving the spouse, whether it's the addict or the addict or. Or the betrayed spouse, some guidelines on how to find what their needs are and how to meet them in a healthy way. Because one way or another, they're going to express something either internally or externally with their spouse when relapse happens. And so having a clear layout of what do I need, how can I meet those needs in a healthy way, what do I need to feel stable in this marriage again is really important. And so it's really just keeping giving it a healthier outline in approaching the conflict.

When you talk about marriages, Trevor, I think of two different situations here. One where the couple has been addressing this topic and there's some level of openness that the one who's struggling has learned I need to confess, or at least has been somewhat open. And in that relationship, usually the couple just doesn't know how to respond When a relapse occurs, it's usually explosive and there's anger and there's threats, and the ones who's struggling is making a lot of promises and I'll never do it again. But it's all words and talk and emotion, but not actually action and a plan of change. So for the couple that's already discussing this topic, it becomes something to keep them grounded and focused on what's actually going to produce change in us and help us walk through this. The other scenario would be a couple where the one who's struggling hasn't talked about this and it's been private and secretive. And usually in that situation, they're trying to figure out, how can I bring this up and not lose my marriage? And a safety action plan or the recovery action plan in that case is very helpful because if they've worked through this ahead of time as they're preparing to share with their spouse, hey, here's some truths of what I've been doing. What they're able to show then is not just the promise of I'll never do it again, but actually showing here's steps I'm taking because of what I've done and if it happens again here, steps I'll take that time. And I know for the spouse who's suddenly feeling betrayed and the loss of trust, that becomes ultra important because when their trust has been betrayed, they can't trust your words anymore. They can't trust those promises. What they can trust is what they see happening. And so the recovery action plan puts in place some specific steps that the one who's struggling can take to show I want to learn from this. I'm changing my behavior not because I say it, but because of what I'm doing. And so it can become a way for that couple to address this topic. Maybe that never has before.

Yeah.

Awesome.

So, yeah, it's creating a process that you can trust in that time of maybe where there's a lack of trust.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it even helps the betrayed spouse, too, because I know for myself, John and I have both been the addict, and we've both been the betrayed spouse. And really, it's not just a plan of action after you relapse if you are the one with addictive behavior behaviors. But for the betrayed spouse, it can become very hurtful. And so there's been times I've been like, move out. I never want to see you again. That's not really how I feel. But in the moment, it is. So it's not really a good time for me to make decisions there. And then my kids hear that. And so it. It just really prevents that kind of, like, crazy behavior. But then also, after I kind of calm down, what I end up trying to do is fix it. And so I don't like the way it feels. I'd rather just have us. I'd rather just kind of eat my feelings and move on and have it be the way it was before, when we were buddies and best friends. And so I'll rush in to try to fix it, but it still doesn't really address the situation, and it doesn't really match how I'm feeling. And so it can send mixed messages to John that this is okay or I'm not really bothered by it. And so it gives both people just a solid action plan for afterwards.

Cool.

So we've already hit on several things, but let's talk more specifically about why is it so important to have a recovery action plan in place? Maybe some people listening or couples feel like I'm already doing a lot of work. This just seems like more work. It's an uncomfortable conversation. Let's just skip it. Why is it so important, though, to have this recovery action plan in place?

I really see the benefit. Well, we do see the benefit in couples that have it. They do better with the recovery. When couples have a recovery action plan, they just do better. We've seen it. We've been doing this for a long time, and it just does work. But also it gives the one with the addictions a chance to see how their behaviors cause consequences. Instead of just having shame and guilt and feeling bad and having this lost feeling after a relapse that I did something again, I'm just a failure, it really helps them start associating their behaviors with a consequence, and that they're choosing this behavior even though they have a consequence that they're. That this behavior outweighs this certain consequence. And so it just helps them to start mapping out what their behavior does. And then it gives them solid footing to move forward instead of just sitting and kind of wallowing and messing up again. And then again, I just explained how it helps the spouse not make emotional decisions, but really be able to stop and think about, what do I need to feel safe? What do I need to start moving towards reconciliation, what's good for me? And then being able to just go right to that. So, a group leader, the first question when a relapse happens should be what's on your recovery action plan, whether it's the spouse or the addict, so that you can immediately start doing the things that you've already decided outside of those.

Emotions and outside of conflict, which, too, when. Because, you know, in the midst of my addiction, when I. When I would relapse, when I would, you know, get into that point where acting out happened again, I would feel emotional in that moment, and I would make irrational decisions. And that could even push me further down into shame and isolation. And so creating something like this, then helps me have a plan of attack if that happens. And obviously, I'm not banking on the fact that it's going to happen, Nick, as you said. But understanding that I've put stuff in place that it's not necessarily a safety net, but it's steps that I know, okay, I've already set this up when I wasn't emotional, when I hadn't recently acted out. And now I know I can trust this process to help me in that emotional state, too.

Mm.

Yep.

And at its most basic level, our brain operates on a system of punishment and reward. So we continue to do the things that bring a reward, even if morally, we might define something as an. That's not a good behavior. If. If it provides pleasure or release or comfort or helps us deal with pain, our brain says, ding, that's a reward, and let's keep doing that. And if something's harmful or hurts us, makes us really uncomfortable, we go, oh, that's punishment. I don't want to go there. And so anytime we find that we're repeating a destructive behavior or something we've promised to stop, it's because there's a reward associated with it. And sexual climax is the most powerful drug known to human beings. And we carry it around in our own brains. And so the challenge is on a. On a level of brain science that does not know morals and values. Our brain continues to crave that because in some way, it works. The reward of, I feel better. I feel this relief. I feel like I'm in control. My pain is medicated. And even if that's just for a moment, that moment is enough for the brain to latch onto. And then for most people struggling, the punishment that comes after is primarily emotional discomfort of guilt and shame. But we haven't had to face real consequences in terms of some steps we have to take to repay for what we've done. And when that starts to be put into place, the brain can learn, oh, this. This behavior isn't worth it because the punishment is greater than the reward. And it actually gets your brain science working for you rather than against you. And so it might seem at first like, oh, this is just, you know, it's a punishment, or, why would I have to do that? What you're doing is cooperating with your brain to say, hey, pal, we need to learn this isn't good for us. That's right, that few moments of pleasure is not worth all the pain I'm going to have to face later. And then when your brain's working for you, you have a much higher chance of success.

Yeah, okay, so let's get practical then, because I think that, you know, as far as a tool, it makes sense. But what are. What are really some important things to have on your safety plan? There may be people listening who like, okay, great, this sounds awesome. I don't have one. And I want to put it in place. What things should be on their safety plan.

This is where it gets really individual to the person. And I think it's important to really take your time and think about. And I know that the questions that we get are what should be on there? Or they'll hear somebody else's, and so they'll just add it. And I don't think that's really a good way to do it. What you should really do is think about your own addiction or your spouse's addiction and how it affects you and what it is you need. So I really try to tell at least the women that I lead in Groups or the men that I end up talking to that you really need to figure out first how you're feeling. So if you're the speaker spouse of the addict, then you would think about how it affects you. So I know for me, I get really emotionally in this kind of other world for a few days, and I know that about myself. And I hate that feeling so much because I have anxiety, my heart's racing. I'll try to do anything to stop it. So whether it's rushing in and trying to fix things, or it's yelling at my husband, or I try to do something to make that feeling go away. And now I just recognize that that happens to me for a few days. And so it's really best that I don't make any decisions in that period that John gives me my space, and I'm just like a bear with myself, and it feels uncomfortable. And so I really have to say I need four days to process this. So I really need you to sleep in another room. I don't want to really have any deep conversations because I recognize I'm emotionally tore up right now. That leads also to. I'm distracted as a parent, so it would be great if he could arrange babysitting or something, because I'm so distracted that I'm edgy and I'm snippy with my kids. And so really identifying what you need. And then. And then the plan forms out of that. It's not, sweep my floors, give me 50 bucks, but it really is, what do I need. And then what's a consequence that would help restore that. Yeah, if that makes sense. And then for the addict, you know, same thing that some single guys, they might, if they relapse on a pornography site or. I've had women that have. That have relapsed with certain videos or movies, and then they realize that they are taking. They're contributing to that industry. And especially if they're single and they don't have a spouse to have those relational consequences with, they will donate 50 bucks or a hundred bucks to a ministry that helps sex trafficking or something like that, so that they're starting to associate real people instead of just objectifying. And then if relapse happens again, they may do more money the next time. And that way in their brain, they can say, is this worth it? And I, you know, that these are real people. And. And they start associating a cost with their action. It's not just a screen.

Gotcha. Cool.

Yeah. And when we're struggling with addiction, there's I think two or three primary lies that we listen to. One says, no one's being hurt. This is just about me. Another one says, no one needs to know. I'll just keep this private. And a third potential one is that it's no big deal because everyone does it and it's not that bad. So I think of the recovery action plan needs to have steps that address all three of those lies. So if I'm listening to a lie as I'm struggling with addictive behavior, that says no one needs to know, My recovery action plan needs to list who will know and my commitments to tell someone what I've done. And so for most people that's telling their group, it includes telling a mentor or close friend or pastor, you know, someone that kind of serves that mentor role. And then if they're married, a timeframe in which they need to tell their spouse. So if I'm really battling my addiction and feeling a lot of temptation, and that little lie pops and says, oh, you don't have to tell anyone. And you realize, well, no, I wrote this covenant that says I'm going to tell my group and this person and my spouse, and, well, that that lie is going to be harder to listen to. And then the idea that no one is being hurt. Your recovery action plan, if you're struggling with addiction, needs to list out, what are the ways that my behavior hurts my spouse, my children, my friendships, how does it. How does it damage them and break trust? And what will I need to do to repair those? Because I can't just expect forgiveness that has no cost with it, that I'm just going to be let off the hook. And so if I know, well, to work on my marriage, I'm going to have to sleep in a different room. I'm going to need to. We're going to go to some counseling together. We're going to take these steps to help them repair. Okay, well, then that lie is going to be harder to listen to as well. And then the third component of saying, well, it's no big deal if I also have listed for myself some of those steps I'm agreeing to take just to train my brain, that this has a cost. It's painful. That also will come up when you're tempted in that lie, saying, oh, it's no big deal. Well, it is a big deal, because if I do this, I'm going to have to maybe pay this money or do this chore that I hate to do. For a lot of guys and groups I've had, they'll put things on. They're like, I agree to clean all the bathrooms for the next two weeks, or I agree to do all the dishes. Or maybe it's things they normally do, but taking it to an extreme where they give their spouse a break from all those things and they realize, man, I don't want to have to do that. It's not worth it. It is a big deal. So just whatever you can do to counteract the lies you tend to listen to. And so I think what Ashley said about it being individual is really helpful, that you need to really recognize what are the lies you tend to listen to. And so what are some things you could put on your recovery action plan that would directly counteract those lies?

Yeah, that's so good, Nick. Yeah.

And I think something that Nick said, the counteracting of lies is, I have a really good example with mine and John's recovery action plan that before it was, he would just confess if he relapsed. And then there was this two week period because he saw that I was having a really emotional time with my family and I was sick. And he kept telling himself, well, I'll tell her when she feels better. I'll tell her when she feels better. Well, that ended up overlapping our anniversary. And so by the time he told me, it had been two weeks. And now I'm really mad. Like, the layers are so deep that I'm sifting through what was real in the last two weeks. And what were you just trying to worm your way out? And in his brain, it gave so much rest, room for those lies to take over that I'll tell her tomorrow. But in that whole two weeks, he kept relapsing. And so after that event, we decided that we needed to change our recovery action plan to say, he'll tell me within 24 hours. And it really was for his benefit at first. At first he didn't like it. And I was telling him that when we wait longer than 24 hours, we're not only now dealing with the relapse and that betrayal, but then it's layers upon layers because you were withdrawn, you were secretive, you were angry, you were still relapsing. And so there's all these other layers that we now have to deal with. And so it just creates more chaos. And he thought about that and came back after he talked to his group. And he said, it really is actually a good idea because I will tell myself, I'll tell her tomorrow. I'll tell her tomorrow. And then after that, after we changed that he ended up confessing right away. And the. And then the relapses kind of stopped because he didn't have that gateway in his brain where he could kind of go as long as he want or tell me, and then it would still just be considered one relapse. So putting a number on it, like, how many times did you relapse? The frequency really helps take out some of those secrets that maybe the addict doesn't even know is there to really clarify that?

Well, and the truth is, there's never a good time to confess to a relapse. So, you know, that's why it's great to have a timeframe on there, because it takes away that addicted mindset of, I can make this work, I can pull it together. We just have to be honest with ourselves and say, I need those kind of parameters. So I know, here's what I've agreed to do, and then stick to it.

And it's interesting, too, is that because when that happens, because you're so emotional and you really. That's when. For me personally, that's when I found myself at my, like, lowest point, my lowest point, because I always equated how I'm doing with my purity, is how God feels about me. And so if I have something in place, especially with telling people that, then they can help pull me out of that place so I'm no longer in that shame cycle that I'm in. And then it basically renews my mind again. It tells me, okay, this is what God actually feels about me, what he thinks about me. He likes me, he loves me, and he's showing me through these people as well, who are in my group who are helping me pull. Pull me out of there.

That's a really good point. And as the spouse, I've come to the point where I don't think about my husband relapsing at all. I don't worry about it anymore because I know if he does, we'll deal with it when it comes to. And he'll tell me. He'll tell me right away, within, you know, a day, so I don't have to constantly rack my brain like I used to. Like, why is he acting funny? Did he do something a week ago? And it just gives me peace to know that we have a plan and we'll deal with it when it comes. I don't have to pre worry.

That's cool.

So, guys, we've been talking a little bit about consequences, and that might be a word that's new for some people. And we've tossed out their logical consequences. Natural. So what is the difference between a logical and a natural consequence? And why might it be helpful to consider both? When putting together a recovery action plan.

We kind of address this a little bit, and what we say is to discover what the natural consequences are first. So, as the addict, your natural consequences may be, I separate myself from God because I have so much shame. I'm hiding, and I'm not myself in front of him, or I isolate. And so then I'm not myself in front of others, which damages relationships. Or when I relapse, I break my spouse's trust. When I relapse, I tend to become feeling ashamed or I withdraw so that I'm not present with my kids, I'm disengaged. And so those are natural things that happen because of the behavior. Logical consequences would be, now I'm going to impose something, or my spouse is going to impose something, so somebody imposes something to address that behavior. So a natural consequence would be, if I go out in the rain, I'm going to get wet. A logical consequence would be if, because I got wet, I'm going to start carrying an umbrella in the rain. And so it really is one just happens naturally because of the behavior. The other one is a consequence that's imposed to help address that behavior, which.

It seems like then at that point, you need to know enough about yourself and you need to evaluate your own heart and where you're at during those times where relapse has happened or you've acted out, because then you know how to address and move forward with those consequences. You first have to identify the natural consequences. And then it seems like out of the natural consequences, the logistical ones then take shape.

I think that's key. And then, as the spouse, a natural consequence that happens when my husband relapses is that I feel shattered emotionally, intimately. I feel there's this wedge put between us. And so the logical consequence would be that I need a few days to process that in a safe space where I'm not tempted to fix it. And so really identifying the natural first and crucial.

Yeah, some examples of those, Like a natural consequence. If I relapse and my spouse is wounded and hurt, I need to recognize she's likely not going to feel like physical intimacy for maybe a week or two weeks. And that could go in writing. So I know here's a natural consequence of my behavior of breaking trust, wounding my spouse, is I'm going to have to go without physical intimacy and sex for a while. And I have to recognize that's a cost. I'm choosing on a logical consequence side, it would be if someone's acting out, like with their device, they would get rid of that device for a month. Or if maybe it's on their phone and they can't get rid of their phone, they would turn off data for a month. Or if it was a relapse that happened, watching TV alone late at night, they would create a boundary where they no longer watch TV alone. And those things might feel restrictive, but they're the kind of restrictions we need to retrain our brain that this matters and there's a cost. Another example from a group I was in, I think the best logical consequence I ever heard of is this couple was discussing how when he relapsed, it made his wife feel uncomfortable and she didn't like it, and she felt trapped. So they tried to think about what's a situation that makes him feel uncomfortable and like, he's trapped. And my friend was a bit claustrophobic. And so they created a consequence that he had to crawl under their house and work on some pipes because they had some things that had to happen there. It's a very small crawl space.

Creative.

Yeah. And he hates tight spaces, he hates bugs, all of that. But I thought that's really brilliant because you are saying, well, this is a situation that I hate because I'm uncomfortable and I don't like it. And it's like, great, because then for the wife, she's like, now you're feeling at least a little bit what I'm feeling. And I think that's what a lot of spouses are looking for, is they feel like when there's a relapse. Well, I'm glad he confessed, but I'm the one dealing with all the pain. And. And now he or she is kind of off the hook. So the logical consequences create that situation where the one struggling has to feel some pain. And that can really help change behavior in the long run. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think there also, the reason why the recovery action plan is so individual is because there are things that bring you into relapse and cause a break in relationships that nobody would see on the surface. Surface. And so there's those emotional things, Facebook and messaging, where you may emotionally feel excited, aroused, a shot of dopamine when you get a text from an ex spouse or you see somebody on Facebook and they message you. And so it really. You really have to think about what causes you to be drawn away from God, away from your spouse, away from your Family and address those things. And so it's not just a check the box kind of recovery action plan. But if you are struggling with emotional things or fantasy, then you really need to address those things as well.

Yeah.

Okay, so let me ask this question because I, I think that maybe some people who are listening, and I know at times I've felt this way as the addict, but then even as a pastor, sometimes I had a hard time because I know the Bible makes it really clear that we are to give grace to each other, that God is a God of grace and mercy. And in that, why don't we just give grace during relapse? Why do there need to be consequences? Because I think a lot of people think like, oh, I could just be gracious and loving and put up with, you know, my addicted spouse or my addicted friends issues. But why? Why are there consequences? Why should we have consequences?

Well, I know I have an example that I give to my twin boys that I, I, you know, we, we understand you are going to be teenagers and make mistakes, but. And we love you and we won't judge you for that. But if you break somebody's window, you may have to fix that window. That there are things that happen because of your actions, that it doesn't mean we don't love you and we aren't trying to be gracious with you, but there are still things that need to be repaired if they've been broken because of your actions. And so I think that's really important. And also, like I was saying before, that emotionally and physically you're affected. There's already been a natural consequence. And so if I don't address those in a sound, healthy way, I'm going to try to fix myself or make myself feel better in some way. And so for me, what that looked like was I would think I'd be really gracious. I even used to have this rule where if John did something to upset me, I would like bite the inside of my cheeks and not say anything because I was always just trying to keep the peace. But what happened was then I would become very passive aggressive. I was always sick because I was holding those things in. And so it really did damage the family in a lot in the long run and in a worse way, because I would be snappy in these ways that he didn't understand because they, in his mind, it wasn't connected to what he had done.

Sure.

And so it, I feel like it always comes out somewhere. It's going to come out in your kids, it's going to come out internally on your body and your health or in some passive aggressive way. And so really the plan just gives you a healthy way to attract those things.

Well, and I think it helps us understand that forgiveness and repair of the relationship are not the same thing. And the two don't necessarily happen at the same time. And we get a great picture of this in the way the Old Testament law worked, that there were many, many sins for which people would come and bring sacrifices, and the shed blood of that animal was their forgiveness. But in many of those instances, they, in addition to that, had to go and make restitution, or there were many sins for which the restitution was what was required. So if you stole an animal, it wasn't only returning the animal you stole, but also paying back maybe an additional animal or two. And as I see that in the Old Testament covenant, it was a way that the people understood, I have, I've broken relationship with my community and I can be forgiven, yes, by a sacrifice, but to restore that relational bond I have with my fellow person, I may need to in some way pay back and show that this matters. And so it not only communicates that to me as maybe the one who perpetrated the crime, but to everyone else in the community. They see, oh, that's a big deal if we steal someone else's stuff. And so I think of that in our journey towards freedom, that, yes, we have forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and that that covers us, it covers our shame, it restores our identity, it helps remind us that we are okay with God and we can stand before him, but that doesn't immediately repair relationships in our lives. And so having the consequences associated with, with a recovery action plan is like making that restitution to the community. And maybe the community is just our own marriage or our own family, but it communicates to us and to everyone else this does matter. And breaking those relationship bonds means something. And so it can be just such a powerful tool to build a deeper sense of community in our marriage and families when we take serious that our actions matter.

Yeah, that's good. So good.

Well, guys, lots of good stuff in here. But maybe someone who is listening just doesn't want to put consequences in place because they're afraid of being the bad guy in the relationship. So what would you say to the spouse who doesn't want to put any consequences in place?

I do get this question a lot. You know, running, betrayal and beyond groups that you know, and that group is for spouses of addicts. So I do get this a lot. And what we try to do is we as group leaders, we ask questions. So, so we do ask, well, what are you going to do if this does happen? What are you feeling? And so we try to ask a lot of questions to get to the bottom of what their needs are. And then we help them to see that just putting your needs on paper is really healthy and it's really actually helps the addict be able to know what to do. Because a lot of times, at least for me, I expect John to know what to do to build my trust back. But when I can list it out, these are the things that, that help me feel secure and safe. When I wake up and I see you reading your Bible, when I see you reading healthy marriage material, when I see you doing your faster scale every week, that makes me feel secure and safe. And for him to know that is a good thing because now he has a written out plan of what it takes to build back my trust. Because as addicts and spouses we've had a lot of deception in the marriage and so we've learned not to trust words at all. And we really need to learn to trust behaviors. And so when you can lay it out on a piece of paper, it really does help your addicted spouse be able to see what they can do to build trust back. So it really is a benefit.

Well, if there's no recovery action plan, the pain is one sided. So the spouse who's being betrayed, you're going to have consequences, those natural consequences of feeling hurt and wounded and not good enough. And I can't trust him or her. So if you don't have a plan, then you're the one feeling all the pain and the one struggling doesn't really learn. And the other thing it puts you in is a place where you feel like you have to be the one to inflict the pain on them. Well, I want them to hurt like I am. So I'm angry and I'm yelling or I'm telling them things to try to make them hurt like I am. Well, if you have a recovery action plan in place, it takes that burden off of you. I don't have to be the one to make them feel the pain because we've got this plan and he or she is going to have to do these things in recovery that'll cause them pain. And so it really gives the spouse freedom to pursue their own health, their own well being, and so don't see it as, oh, this is a bad thing for him and for us. It's like, man, it gives you solid foundation to work on your recovery and also gives him or her steps they need to take for recovery. And so to not have it in place, I think is just a real mission.

Well, and I think, too, that. Because as you're saying that I'm thinking of parenting like you put. You put things in place where you discipline your kids so that they will be disciplined children, so that they will learn what's best for them. And I think that God is that way, too. He's not punitive in the sense where he's punishing us all the time, but he does discipline us as his children. Now, I'm not suggesting that spouses treat, you know, their addicted spouse as a child, but I think that there's a piece to it where you have to understand the things you're putting in place are to make your relationship better, to bring about sexual and emotional health, and to bring you closer and to establish more trust, to see more healing, to see more freedom. And really, you're going to be closer at the end because of the work that you're putting together now and understanding that even though it's going to hurt and feel really uncomfortable at first, knowing that in the long run, it's going to be for your best interest.

Well, I love Ashley's illustration of breaking a window. I mean, think about as parents, if when our kids broke a window, we, you know, scolded them, told them how much that was a bad thing to do, but then we always pay for the windows. Our kids are going to learn. Oh, well, I get yelled at, but then nothing happens because mom and dad pay for the window. And I wouldn't be surprised if they break a whole lot more windows because there's really no cost. Yeah. And that's essentially what we're doing in a relationship where there's no recovery action plan is we scold them and yell at them from breaking the window, but then we pay for it.

Yeah.

So the one struggling is like, well, it really didn't hurt that bad.

You guys must have terrible kids breaking windows. Mine is not broken window yet.

I'm the one that broke all the windows.

Yeah, but he's cr. Okay, give me some. Give me some, you know, some credit there. Okay, guys. So this has been awesome, Ashley. You know, Nick, I just think that this. We end with this. You know, really, every episode is just really any tips or suggestions to help people when they're thinking about setting up a recovery action plan or safety plan.

What.

You know, what they should be looking for when they're creating one. So just any tips, suggestions that you.

Would end with wine would be to use one. And so I know that in our workbooks, in the Seven Pillars of Freedom, the safety plan, the old version of the safety plan is in the front of the book in the introduction part. And so it can be a little confusing because it's not built into the chapters. And so I've heard from different leaders that, you know, we just do the chapters. We didn't, we weren't aware of when we were supposed to do that, how we were supposed to do it. And so it's really important that that's done research really soon, right off the bat that that's done. So maybe as a leader, you can just take a pause wherever you're at, if you haven't done that yet, and do a lesson where we're going to go home this week and do the safety plan and then come back. In the Betrayal and Beyond workbook, it's towards the end, but if it's needed earlier, especially if your spouse is in group and they have one, then you can do that earlier. And so it really is important first to have one. Then if a relapse occurs, that should be almost your first thing. What's on my recovery action plan? Because it will say call your group member. Call, make an account, make a counseling appointment. It will have all the action steps. So the first thing when relapse happens, whether you're the spouse or the one with the addictive behaviors, is what's on the recovery action plan. And then if you are both aware and working on it, then, then schedule a time to do one together that's outside of conflict, where it's something you both agree on. So it's not the spouse who's waiting for betrayal, like, what am I going to do the next time he or she relapses? How am I really going to make him understand that he can't do that anymore? She can't do that anymore. But it's just we've already talked about that and it takes that worry out of it. And then the other piece I would say is after, if you end up experience relapse and you implement the recovery action plan because it was done outside of conflict, you may realize that something needed to change, like maybe I need an extra day or, or maybe I didn't really need five days to kind of reevaluate it after, when things have settled down again, not right after, don't change it in the middle. And so I encourage People that I talk to don't change it in the middle. Do what you've done and then after you're back in restoration and outside of conflict, evaluate it again to see if those things were effective or if something needs to be bumped or removed.

That's really good.

Yeah. And this tool will be on our website and it's also in the workbook. So definitely read through those because there's a lot more examples on there that might help couple or an individual see what they could put. A couple other quick tips. I'd say put it, make sure it's in writing because you're not going to remember it when you need it most. Don't think, oh, we've got a verbal agreement. No, it needs to be in writing. And then you also need to keep it somewhere where you can review it often. So I know for me, for a lot of years it was just in the back of my workbook. So at any time as I'm doing homework, I could flip back, remind myself what was going to happen if I went over the edge again. And that became a powerful deterrent. And then not only keeping it close, but do review it often, both for yourself and your spouse so that you have in mind this is what happens and it becomes useful when you use it. If you just write it down once and then toss it in a drawer and don't read it for a year and then there's a relapse and you pull it out, it might be surprising to remember, oh man, I said I do all these things and what a bummer. If only I'd have remembered ahead of time. Well, right, you'd remember if you keep reviewing it. So have it in writing, keep it close and review it often.

And I would just offer trust the process. Once you put the process in place, don't overthink it. Once you've done it, once you put it in place, just trust the process. And then like you said afterwards, reevaluate.

If things need to change, just if necessary. Yeah.

And not all of our workbooks just to say have a full version of the recovery action plan. So really, if your book doesn't have one, then check the website and we should have one for seven spouses and one for addicts, that there should always be one you can get or a new one if you need to update yours.

Cool. Awesome. Well, Ashley, Nick, thanks for spending some time chatting about this today. We hope that this helped with anything that's really needed to implement an effective safety plan or recovery action plan and how to better use it. So thanks guys. Appreciate it.

Glad to be here.

Awesome. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also you can follow us on social media earedesirepdmi once again, that is earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and and freedom on your journey to purity.