018 - One-sided Healing (Betrayed Spouse)

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I am here, as always, with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

It's good to be here. Yeah.

And then we also have with us Ashley Jamison, who is again on an episode with us. Thanks for being here, Ashley.

I'm glad to be here again.

Awesome. So I don't know if you guys know this, but we're glad to have Ashley on the podcast because she lives all the way in Idaho, so it's always a treat when we have her in person and we can do this. So it's pretty cool. I just want people to know how important you are and how, you know, significant it is that we actually get to have you on the podcast.

So I think you should say that again. Some people might be tuning in late.

Okay, got it, got it. Well, rewind, rewind. Okay, so today, this episode, we want to talk about when there's a betrayed spouse who sees the need for healing, but has that husband or wife or spouse that doesn't want to make a change. And this is a really, really tough situation. And honestly, we hurt for those who are in this situation, and we really just want to bring hope to those people today with this conversation and answer some questions. So maybe less. Less jokes. And, you know, we're not trying to make light of this today because this is a serious episode, and we want people to know that this is a serious thing and that we really do want to bring some hope to them. Yeah.

We have a real variety of listeners that tune in, and we appreciate that. Sometimes it's spouses, sometimes it's people struggling with addiction. Sometimes it's just a group member wanting to understand the process better. But I'm guessing on this episode, we have more people tuning in that are in that. That tough place. And so we just want to be aware that this can be a real lifeline to you as you try to process what do I do when I'm hurt? I'm wounded, I'm getting fed up, maybe even you're feeling done. And the spouse is still stuck in that pattern of denial and minimizing or rationalizing their behavior. It can be so frustrating to know what do I do? Because, as is often the case, as the spouse, we usually aren't the one that can make our other spouse see the need to change. It has to come from within. Well, what do we do in the meantime? So as our listeners maybe are in that discouraging place, let's just start with that idea. What's some encouragement? Ashley, let's start with you. What's some encouragement you would give to the spouse that's tuning in and they're tired of being hurt, but their spouse isn't ready to change? How would you want to start out and just encourage that person encouragement?

I have experienced this personally. I've been the betrayed spouse. I've also been the addicted spouse. And I personally have experienced. I remember this pivotal moment in my recovery, or walking through John's recovery with him, where he had a relapse, and I didn't have a physiological reaction. So for the first time, he did something that really hurt me. But I didn't get hot. I didn't go numb. I didn't have an upset stomach. And so it was kind of there that I realized I don't have to be chained to his behaviors. And the more I started focusing on what I could do and who I was in Christ, the more I realized that I really didn't need to be changed. My happiness wasn't based on what he was doing in his behaviors. And so that really became a point of hope for me that I saw that it could be different.

Yeah.

I think some encouragement I would want to give to listeners is to tell them, you are not alone. Yep. I think one of Satan's primary strategies in our lives is to get us isolated and get us believing that I'm the only person struggling like this. And when it comes to, you know, sexual addiction or sexual brokenness, it's very personal. It's very private. It's not something we talk about on Sunday morning at church. Hey, how's your week? Oh, my husband's struggling with pornography. That's just not a conversation we tend to have. But what happens then is the spouse who is being wounded and hurt feels like everybody else has a perfect marriage. Everything else, oh, look how happy they are. And we can feel so deflated and defeated, and so we just need to hear you are not alone. There are thousands and thousands of marriage all across the country that are in this battle, and we want to help equip you and connect you to others. Because when we feel alone, Satan wins.

Yeah.

But when we realize we're not the only ones, it's not just about me, or there's not something that's particularly wrong with me that's driving my spouse into this behavior, then we really can get some Freedom to address our own healing and learn to find our voice in our relationship.

And I think it's important to say right now that it's not just men that are the addicts, that women are also addicted to pornography, have a sex addiction, have a love addiction. And so we can be talking to men at the same time. And. And so with that, I think I would say, you know, something that. That I have the tendency to do, especially when I see sin in someone else, and it affects me. I really want to be the Holy Spirit for that person and push them and prod them and move them in the direction that I think their healing should look like. And I would encourage people not to do that, because it's really, really important that you understand that if. If your spouse, the addicted spouse, a believer, has the Holy Spirit inside of them, God is working on them. You don't have to do that work. Allow God to work on you. Allow God through the Holy Spirit, to bring you to more emotional health, sexual health, and really don't put the burden of your spouse, the addicts, the addicted spouse, put their healing on you, because that's not ultimately your responsibility.

Well, and one of the primary questions I think every one of us as human beings is asking is, am I good enough? What makes me good enough? How do I know that I'm enough? And when our spouse is struggling with any kind of sexual brokenness or addiction, it strikes at that cord that says, I'm not enough for them. Why am I not enough for them? And while I think it's maybe natural to feel that way, I would want listeners to hear that a spouse's broken behavior has nothing to do with your identity, your value, your worth, or even your beauty. Some of the most beautiful people in the world are married to addicts, and it's not. There's no correlation. So if you've got it in your head that if I was only more, whatever, more pretty, dressed better, skinnier, athletic, stronger, then I could fix them. It's not about your beauty or being good enough. So if you're listening and battling with that thought, I hope you'll hear me say, you're enough. You're enough through Christ, you're enough through who God made you to be. And don't let your spouse's struggle undermine your value and identity.

So what are some initial steps that people could take when they find themselves in the situation where a spouse is unwilling to change?

I think the initial step would be to identify what you need to feel secure and whether they're willing to get on board or not. So if you didn't listen to last week's episode on the recovery action plan, I would really encourage you to go back and listen to that one, because that's going to be help you understand how to find what you need and identify your feelings and then put in a plan for yourself. And so when your spouse is unwilling to change, a lot of times addicts will. They take the easy way, the path of least resistance they get. You know, they try to get away with as much as they can with as little work as they can, and that's not always at a conscious level, but it's just a pattern they've developed where they take whatever path is going to cause them the least amount of pain. And so as a spouse, sometimes when we've been living with an addict, which we say, if you're living with an addict, you're living with trauma, you've probably developed ways to keep yourself sane and feeling some sort of peace or feeling good about yourself and your relationship, even being married to an addict. And so really, you have to kind of get to the bottom and unravel some of those beats, behaviors that you might have put in place to feel stable in your marriage even though you're with an addict. And so for me, that was hyper vigilance. It was control. So I do all the bills, I do all the planning. I, you know, I really take control. And that's still an issue I struggle with. Also codependency that I would try to mind read or try to figure out what was going on and then step in place. And oftentimes it was wrong or it was overbearing because I'm trying to figure it out, because I have such this awareness that there's something off in our marriage. And I would try to fix it, and it would usually end up causing more damage. So the first thing would be to identify your needs, your feelings, and what it is you need as a spouse, and then to move on from there. And when you start putting in place things that you need to feel safe, it's going to confront the addict that I don't feel safe. When you are looking at porn or when you're flirting with your existence spouse on Facebook, it makes me feel fractured. And it's really hard for me to be vulnerable physically, emotionally. And I don't want to put myself in a position where I feel used, because then I feel bitter. I feel like I'm just an object. So for me, if those behaviors continue, then I can't be physically intimate with you because it's too hard on me. And so it's going to really put the addict in a place where it's kind of like paint or get off the ladder. Like, we're not going to keep doing this dance. I'm going to do what I need to feel safe, regardless of whether you're going to get on board or not.

Yeah. And it sounds like communication is really important because I know there are times where I felt like I can't say something to someone because if I do, that might set them off and send them out onto another, you know, binge on whatever they're going through. And I think that we need to not again put that burden on us. We still need to be open and communicate how things make us feel. And, and really what we need to feel safe and secure and to re. Establish trust and not be afraid that that could set someone off, because again, you're not responsible for that person.

Absolutely.

And as we're finding how to feel safe, you know, how to work on our own health, we need to break out of our own isolation. So if isolation equals unhealth, then community equals health. And you need to have a group. If you're in this situation and you might feel like, well, I'm not the one with the problem. Why should I have to go to a group and do this hard work? It is amazing when you're in community, the ways that you're able to process this hurt and woundedness and actually feel, find the stability and health that you need. It comes through others and being with those that are going through the same thing. And that's why at Pure Desire, we're very intentional not to just have groups for those who are struggling. And that's, that's what most ministries do. And they're very good groups, and we're glad other ministries have them. But there are very few options for the spouse. And we recognize if you only try to help the addict heal, that's only half the equation. And so if you're the spouse who's being wounded or betrayed, you might be the starting point that he. You get into a group, you start to process, you get healthy. And as is so often the case in human behavior, the greatest way to change others is to work on ourselves. And so you might not be going to group because you think you have a problem personally, but you have a problem in your marriage. And as you work on healing you, that's the greatest thing that'll cause a spouse to kind of turn around and go, wait a minute, Something's happening here. There's changes, and that may be the very thing that opens them up to addressing their issues. So you can take a lot of steps initially on your own, but being a part of a group is essential.

Yeah. And as Nick said in the opening, that to realize you're not alone, there's research that does suggest that when we do share our story in a safe area, it brings healing. And so when even as the betrayed spouse, if we're in a group where we're able to share our feelings and process those things out loud, it really takes some of those lies out of it. When you can have other people speak into you and it. And it brings healing to yourself. When you're able to do that in a safe environment where other people understand and they can say, we've been there too.

Yeah, it's so powerful.

So we started to talk a little bit about the resources available, the groups. Ashley, tell us a little bit more, maybe specifics about those groups. What are the names of them and what are their workbooks, and what are some other tools and resources that might be available for people that find themselves in this position.

We have a group for women who are married to addicts called Betrayal and Beyond, and that comes with a workbook and a journal. And then we have a group for men who are married to an addict called Hope for Men. And so those resources are meant to be worked through with a group. We also have books, Peace beyond the Tears, Pure Desire Stories for Men, Pure Desire Stories for Women. And those are going to be really encouraging reads. If I run across a spouse who's been betrayed and they're not sure or they're not ready to be part of a group. I really encourage pastors to have copies of those books because a lot of times you'll get couples or even just an individual who comes in and says, I don't know what to do. I'm hurt. And I think it's really, really powerful. If a pastor has those things on hand and they can send those people home with those books when they're willing and they're ready to read something. And through reading some of those books, especially, especially Pure Desire Stories for Women and Men and the Peace beyond the Tears, they'll discover that they aren't alone, what it will take to start feeling better and to start healing from this, and they'll really have a good idea of what group can do for them. And so that's just a good starting point for anybody.

Yeah, we'll have those in the show. Notes for this episode to make sure that people can find them. And then also you can go to PureDesire.org and look at our store and you'll see all those resources there.

Another thing a spouse should consider is picking up the initial book that started our ministry, Pure Desire, because that will help them understand the brain process that's going on in their spouse. It'll help them understand the issue differently. Why can't they just stop it, even if they know it's hurting me? Or also picking up the conquer series, the DVD training tool that in the first two DVDs in particular, a spouse can really gain some understanding of what's going on in their spouse's world. And it's very eye opening. So even though those two resources, Pure Desire and the Conquer series, are more aimed at the person who is struggling for the person being hurt by it, it can help them develop a new level of understanding. And I think in particular, when you understand what's happening in the brain, it can really help remove you from being the person that either can fix it or is the source of the problem. Because they see that, oh, there's so much more going on here than just know having sex in our marriage and trying to fix them.

Yeah, yeah, Nick. I actually did experience. That's how I initially started my healing was John was in a seven Pillars group and he joined two weeks late. So he was bringing the Conquer series home to catch up. And when I saw that disc two on the brain, it just answered so many questions for me. And I remember thinking, if this has clinical implications, if it changes the brain, then there has to be a situation, a solution that can help heal it. And it really did take me out of the equation When I saw what that addiction does to the brain. It really made me start believing him when he said, it's not about you, that there's some kind of compartmentalization that goes on and it's not about you. And that was really hard for me to believe until I saw that dvd. And so I actually do show just two of the Conquer series on the brain to all of my Betrayed classes because it does give them a lot of understanding to move forward in the workbook when they can understand that brain stuff first.

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, more knowledge is gonna help you. It's gonna put more tools in your tool belt for moving forward. Definitely. Okay, so let me ask this question then, because I think that especially the younger generations now and how much sex is in our culture, maybe downplay pornography, whether they downplay the Actual use of it. Or they downplay the fact that it's an issue because so many people are doing it, I might as well do it. And that could extend into older generations as well. But what does a spouse do if their addicted spouse has the problem? And it's obvious, but they downplay it.

Well, getting to that point where they actually break denial is really challenging. I mean, that is the first step in being able to recover. And I mean, if they hadn't seen the Conquer series, I think that's a great starting point because it will show you pictures of your brain on porn, of what, you know, what those kind of behaviors actually do to change your body and separate you in relationship. And so I think that's a great awareness tool, the Conqueror series, where they can see for themselves what. How big this issue is and what it does. Whether you believe in Christ or not, you get to see what it's doing to your body. You get to see how it's changing you and separating you. And then the other thing, if they're. If they're downplaying it, I mean, it really does still come back to. To how you're feeling. And so whether they believe it's an issue or not, you get to still be responsible for your feelings and what you need to feel safe. And so my spouse doesn't necessarily have to understand why this hurts me. The fact is, it does hurt me. And this is what I need to feel like I can move forward in physical or relational intimacy.

Yeah, my response is my responsibility. I don't control their action. But the way I respond is important. You know, in my marriage, I allowed this struggle with addiction to continue for 10 years because of the way I conveniently disassociated it from my marriage relationship. So because it had started as a teenager and it already been, you know, an issue in my life for five, six years before marriage, I was able to say to my wife, even though I was confessing fairly regularly, I'd say, well, it's not about you. It's before I even met you. It's this different thing. It wasn't something I was doing as an outlet when she would hurt me. So I could keep saying, well, if she just understood, she wouldn't be so mad at me. And what created breakthrough in our lives is when God just opened my eyes to see that I was the one that didn't understand because she was trying to say some things to me that I wasn't hearing about how it made her feel betrayed and felt like I was cheating on Her. But because I was saying, oh, well, you just don't understand. It was convenient to continue the behavior. And so I think for the spouse that is in that place of feeling like, why can't they understand how much this is hurting me to just keep at that line of good communication that's making I statements, not you statements. So rather than being accusatory or finger pointing or saying, you know, you don't love me, because for the addict, it's usually not an issue of love. It's possible that they love you and they've got an addiction. But what I think you can communicate to try to help open the eyes of your spouse is really what Ashley was saying, how it makes you feel to say, when you do this, I feel betrayed. When you do this, I feel like I'm not good enough. When you do this, I feel like you don't love or value me. I know you say you do and you believe you do, but it makes me feel like you don't. And to help as much as you can, a spouse realize that your perception is your reality. And when we realize, man, I'm creating a reality in my spouse that makes her feel like I'm having an affair, well, how can I keep downplaying that? And so, yeah, they might ignore you, but I know they're gonna ignore you more if you're accusing and finger pointing and yelling. But when you focus more on just trying to help them really understand the emotional impact their behavior has. And so I know a lot of spouses will write letters so that it's not an angry, vindictive, you know, statement at them, but it's something they've thoughtfully written down and just said, I want you to know what happens in my heart when, when I hear what you're doing. And hopefully a spouse could read that and process and come to that realization, oh, wow, I'm really damaging my marriage. And then what you have to be careful of is that the fix isn't okay. Now I'm going to try really hard just to stop it. I'll never do it again. Because I think that's what every addict says. That's what I said for 10 years in my marriage, that if they have that motive of, wow, I'm so sorry I've hurt you, I want to change. That's where actions become important. Okay, well, we'll show it by what you do. Don't tell me you're going to change. Show me.

Yeah. And in my. In betrayed groups that I oversee and help lead, I really see there's a lot of times often the spouses have been living with this addiction, this trauma for so long that they really have not figured out a way because their needs and what they need has been ignored for so long or unheard. And so it could either be an underplaying or an overplaying. And so you could have the spouse, that's right, really angry and vocalizing their needs in an angry way. Or you could have the spouse that does not know how to vocalize their needs. And so the important thing first would be to figure out what your feelings and your needs are. That's again, where group is so important, to have that healthy filter a group of people to help you come to that. And I experienced that in my marriage when, when John and I first were dating, I was going to bars and I was just crazy, lost in my own addiction. And he came up to me and said, this is not what I'm looking for. This, you know, this is fine if this is how you want your life to be, but this is not what I'm looking for. And I never went to a bargain after that because it wasn't in a codependent way, but it was. I was unaware of how my behaviors were affecting somebody I loved. And so at that point I realized the pain of losing him is greater than the pain of giving up this thing I enjoy doing by going and dancing and being at bars. And so it really does start with vocalizing your need. If he hadn't vocalized that and just bailed on me, then I would have never had the opportunity to change.

Yeah, I think you bring up a really important point, Ashley, and something back to what you said, Trevor, that's becoming more common in our culture is women feel like they have to just accept it, like, well, all guys do this and it can go the other way too. Maybe a guy's feeling like, well, that's just how women are. And I want our listeners to know it's fair to expect that your spouse has eyes only for you. And it doesn't matter how sexualized our culture has become. That is a fair, I believe God given desire in a marriage relationship to say, I want to be the only one that you look at or see in that way. And so don't buy into this cultural garbage that says, oh, it's just what guys do or boys will be boys or sowing their wild oats. It is fair for you to expect that you will be honored by their thoughts and their actions, whether you're the male or the female, that that is a fair expectation. So don't give up on that just because you think, well, he'll never change or they'll never change. Because that's one of the great things we see at Pure desire is change is possible. People do walk in freedom, they are transformed. They do find their spouse is enough for them. So even if our culture gives that different message, don't buy that lie because that leads to a defeatism that really we don't have to accept.

And let me offer some perspective as an addict that the reason why I think I ended up downplaying it was because I thought there was no hope. I thought I was always going to struggle with this. And the more that I struggled with it, the more I struggled with my identity in Christ. I thought that my identity was strictly tied to how I performed and specifically performed in this arena. So if I was pure, I felt like God loved me more. And so the more I struggled and the deeper into my addiction I went, I found myself feeling hopeless. And then the only way that I could feel loved, accepted, had favor from the Lord was to downplay this like it was no big deal and live my life that way. And it was a twisted, very unhealthy way of thinking. But I'm just hoping that this maybe brings a little bit more understanding that it's not always downplaying because I want to stay in this addiction, but it could be downplaying because I don't know what else to do to help me go through my day to day relationship with the Lord. And you know, and I was a pastor at the same time, you know, I just started to get healing a year into my full time pastoral ministry. And especially as a pastor, I found myself needing something to help me understand that my value was not directly tied. So I downplayed this. And so the only reason I say that is just, you know, to understand as a spouse who feels betrayed, that it maybe it isn't just they've, they've given up and don't really care that it's an issue, but it may be they don't know that there's any hope. And that's what we're hoping to bring is hope through this is that there really is something that works. So, yeah, take that, you know, as you will. But I hope that that adds some value.

I think that's a really good point. And that's something I really hammer into people that I'm talking to when I, when I first talk to people and they're so hopeless that you don't Know what you don't know? You don't know that you can experience that kind of freedom because you haven't had it. And I've had a sexual addiction and I've had an eating disorder. And until you've actually experienced the freedom, you really don't think there could be a life without that. Or you think that when you do finally get to the point in your life where that stronghold isn't there, that it's going to be this miserable white knuckling life when that's really not what it's like, that your brain really can renew and your soul can really renew and you can find that joy. And for us to just be that voice piece in people's lives that you really, really, really can live free of sexual addiction or free of this pain and trauma, it can really happen that it's not just this. I'm going to have to white knuckle it and suffer the rest of my life.

So, Ashley, Trevor, we're giving people a lot of advice, what to do, encouragement, steps to take. Let's look at the flip side of that for just a moment. What are some things that you would encourage people to avoid doing or saying when they find themselves in this scenario? What are the mistakes people make that only make it worse?

I have a lot of these. I have my own laundry list. So some of the things I did personally were I would go straight into that hyper vigilance. Because when John first got into group, he didn't see himself as an addict. And I think this is very typical, especially of Christian men, where they could go months without relapsing and then they do. And so they don't really see it as an addiction because it's, well, I only do it every couple months or, you know, I'm not an addict. They have this idea of what an addict is. And so I would find myself getting on his computer, looking through his phone, and in my head I was thinking if I could just keep ahead of everything and be able to foresee if he's going to get in an emotional relationship, then I can protect our marriage. And that was so unhealthy because one it, it just constantly made John feel like I was like big brother, always snooping through everything. And I was his parent and he had no freedom. He felt like he was on a short chain. But it also created instant adrenaline spike and anxiety in me. And then I'd be angry with my children and I'd be distracted and I'd find myself trying to police and figure things out. Like a private detective all day long. And it just robbed me of my joy. It robbed me of being present. And then the other thing that I was really famous for doing was not saying anything at all. And so then my feelings would be stuffed. And I experienced a lot of illnesses. And when you stuff your feelings and you have a lot of stress, it does affect your body, and then also it comes out in inappropriate areas. So I would snap at my children, but it was really because I was so obsessed with maybe catching John in a lie. And I wouldn't say that to him because I wouldn't want to create more conflict. I would just want to keep the peace or. Or I would try harder to be the perfect wife. I'd straighten my hair, and I'd put makeup on, and I'd, you know, get dressed up right before he'd get home. And I just try to be the perfect wife. But then all this anger was coming out at my children. And so it really, really is important that, again, you figure out what your feelings are. You figure out your needs are. You get in a group, and you learn how to identify and voice those things in a healthy way by using the recovery action plan. By being in group.

I think, too, that it's important to. Because, I mean, I'll be honest, I haven't experienced this. In the realm of sexual addiction, I am not the betrayed spouse. But as someone who was an addict, I understand that when I was at the peak of my addiction, if you forced healing onto me, I would reject it at all costs. And so if. If you're a betrayed spouse who's finding healing, let those conversations about what you're learning happen organically. Don't come home and be like, hey, guess what I learned tonight? You know? And then you just dump everything. Like, this is what I learned about you and your addiction and how I should handle you and how I should help you. And just to be. To still be a loving, gracious, and caring spirit spouse, but still allowing your own healing to take place. But don't come in and lecture your spouse every time you get home. Or, you know, try to leave your book and be passive aggressive and leave your book open on, you know, their nightstand. Like. Like trust. Trust the process that God's taking you through of healing, but then also just trust that organically, conversations are going to happen with that spouse, that you can bring things up.

Yeah, I think Ashley brought up some great points. You know, we do not want to be our spouse's accountability partner. We don't want to be the police officer, because immediately that changes the relationship. And it's no longer a love relationship of mutuality. It becomes kind of one is subjective to the other. And so if you're in a marriage where you are the only person receiving accountability reports or the only person they report to, that's not helping. You're actually allowing the addict to perpetuate their isolation, hiding their behavior because it feels safe and convenient to just hide it within my own marriage. So if you're the only one keeping them accountable, you need to send them to a mentor, to a friend, to a group, to a pastor. Say, I'm not your accountability partner, I'm your wife, or I'm your husband. And you need to be accountable that you honor me. But I don't want to have to look over your shoulder. The second thing that you touched on Ashley, I think is important to avoid is to avoid thinking I can fix them. And I think some spouses go not just hyper vigilant, they go hyper sexual. They believe if I can be sexy enough, if I can do what I'm hearing about in the videos or that he likes, I mean, that's honorable, that you want to try to meet your spouse's needs. That's pretty cool. But it's not going to help. It's not going to work. There is nothing you can do so well, so often, so perfectly to fix his or her addiction, because that's not how addiction works. And usually in the end, the spouse just ends up feeling dirty or cheapened or sex suddenly feels like something they want to avoid. And in the long run, it's going to cause a lot more damage than help. And so make sure you don't think I'm going to be the one to fix them in a healthy way. Can you help? Well, sure. Healthy marital sexuality built on love and trust and intimacy is a beautiful way to help someone in that process. But don't go to the edge of thinking, I'm going to be just as sexy as whatever he desires. That won't work. And then the third thing I would encourage avoiding for spouses is don't get into this place where you feel like you spend your whole life taking it out on them. I'm going to make them pay for how they've hurt me. And so maybe you're wounded by their behavior, but then when he forgets to take out the trash, you just explode. And it's like, well, I'm making him pay for how he's made me feel. The problem with that, he doesn't connect those Dots. He's just like, why do I have such an angry wife? What's wrong with her? And the. He shifts the blame or she does can shift the blame from what I've done wrong to just think, man, they're an angry person. What's wrong with them? And so they're not connecting those dots. If you think I'm just going to keep showing them how hurt I am through all these other ways, they don't get that. So be open and clear about how you're feeling about their behavior, but make sure you don't turn it into, I'm going to make them pay until they change. Because again, the relationship will just become so damaged that the spouse won't want to change. So really work on continuing to build a healthy marriage relationship even while you're expressing the truth of how their behavior makes you feel.

Yeah. And that last part that you said, I'm just going to keep showing them how angry I am. That's a really dangerous trap that some spouses can get stuck in, because you feel like if you stop displaying that anger, you're almost giving them permission and. And you're not. And that's again, why a recovery action plan is so crucial, because you're laying it out that although I'm not going to remind you of it all day long, this is how it affects me. And so they can become aware of how it affects you, and they can become aware of the things they can do to rebuild trust without you having to show those little snippets of anger every day. And I know for us, the roles really reversed as John got healthier in his sexual addiction. I still was really trapped in my co control and my codependency and making him feel the pain. Before he started getting healing, if he would relapse, he'd, you know, he'd say sorry. Kind of what we talked about on the last episode, he'd say sorry, and he would write me a letter. And he was really repentant. But we didn't have many steps in place for him to actually move out of that. And so it was really just a lot of him pouring his heart out. And what ended up happening was I kind of got used to that cycle of him relapsing and. And then kind of groveling. And I get presents. And so when he started getting healthy and I stopped getting presents, I started getting irritated.

And you get comfortable in that.

Yeah, like, he's not really sorry because where's my letter? Where's my chocolate? Where's my gift card? To the spa. And so I'm like, he's not really sorry because I got used to this really unhealthy cycle. And so eventually he had said, I have to realize that I did hurt you, but now this is really yours to process, so you need to call your women. And I was angry, like, no, you're the one who I dump it all on, and you're the one who makes me feel all better. And he really started showing me that I needed to own my feelings. And he was aware and he was doing the things to restore my trust. But then there was something that I had to be responsible for too. And that really was an eye opener for me, that I couldn't continue to perpetuate this unhealthy cycle.

Yeah, that's great. Okay, guys, so I think that we've. We've had a lot of good stuff here. And I think that any. Any betrayed spouse that's listening is going to find value in this. And we really pray that that's. That that's true. But I just want to give us an opportunity to offer any final encouragements, because there are a lot of people who are listening who are in this situation who are a betrayed spouse and have a spouse who is addicted to pornography or sex, and it is affecting them daily. And they may just be at. At the end, they may think that divorce is coming. They may think that separation needs to happen. They are ready to call it quits. What encouragement would you give to that betrayed spouse?

I know, for me, that if you are a betrayed spouse and you do not have a group or people that are walking through this with you, that would be my number one thing. Even just this past week, I realized that my birthday is a trigger for me. And I was really emotionally low. I was really just hovering in relapse. I was going crazy on my family and just acting like a psycho. And my friend said she was gonna. And she's from group, so she knows all of my triggers, everything. We've been in group for a couple years, and she said, I'm gonna come over. I said, no, I just want to be alone. I don't want anybody to come over. Well, she came over anyways because she knows that's what I need. And it instantly just changed my night. And I woke up the next day completely fine. I felt refreshed. I felt like she helped me get back on track and kind of own the behaviors. And she helped me recognize that maybe. Maybe my birthday was a trigger. And so it's really, really important for people that know this journey and who maybe are a little ahead of it to be in your life.

Yeah, I think that's. That's so key, is that you. You reach out to someone and you really find that I'm not alone. And the. The truth is that if you're sitting there feeling like I'm the only one, God has put someone else in your world that is feeling the exact same way, that thinks I am the only one that feels this way. And if you would be courageous and open that door, you might find God creates healing not just for you, but for someone else. And the last piece of advice I'd give is just how counterintuitive is that? If I want to change someone else, the best thing I can do is change me. And so if you're an angry, bitter, frustrated spouse, the likelihood of that creating change in your marriage is almost zero. But if you're getting in a group, you're getting. You're finding health. You're able to find your voice to share openly about how you're feeling. Not from an angry place, but just from honest and truth. That willingness to address your own issues is the thing that will open your spouse up more. And so I know it might seem like, well, they're the one at the problem. Why should I have to do anything? You need to be healthy, and the healthier you get, it's like creating a wake that others follow behind you. So focus on your own health rather than your spouse's problems, and trust God to do the work in your spouse.

And I would just, you know, echo what you guys are saying. And the only addition I would have is just to put more tools in your tool belt, because it's not going to take away the pain when an addicted spouse is continuing to hurt you with their actions and their addiction. But it will help you with the process and knowing how to process that, knowing how to find emotional health, knowing how to communicate effectively, knowing what to avoid if you have those tools and you have community in place. So just commit to the tools. Commit to the process of finding your own healing. Because when. When you are hurt, when that trauma comes through your addicted spouse, you're going to be more ready to handle that in a healthy way and not an unhealthy way. Yeah, guys, this was. This was great. I mean, even for me as someone who was not betrayed, I learned a lot, and I feel like I have a better understanding. And, Ashley, thanks for sharing so much about your story, and thank you for having me. Yeah. And then Nick, too. Thanks, man, for being vulnerable.

Appreciate that. Awesome.

Well, we really hope that this helps all the listeners out there. And we also want to just remind people that we do have counseling available. That if there's anything going on where you feel like you're unable to process it, if you feel unsafe in your home, if there's things going on that we do have counseling available. And that would be on our website if you go to PureDesire.org counseling and really reach out to somebody because that an undervalued thing I think in our culture. So make sure to go check that out. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

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