019 - Starting Women's Groups

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, Nick Stumbo, Yole Yihu, and we're joined today by Jackie Chambers. Jackie is one of our regional group leaders and is also on our speaking team for Pure Desire. Jackie and her husband live in Texas, and they also lead Pure Desire groups at their church. Jackie, thanks for hanging out with us on the PD podcast.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.

We're so happy to have you, Jackie. So, Jackie, I gave a little bit of information on you, but can you just fill in our listeners a little bit about yourself just so they can get to know you a little bit?

Yes. Like you said, me and my husband Ernie, we have been married for 33 years, and we have two young adult daughters. And the first 18 years of our marriage had been ravaged with sexual addiction that my husband had. And through that process, we did not even know that it was sexual addiction. But it just got to the place where I decided to call it quits. It just became hopeless. And. And our story and our journey begins is during our time of separation, where God brought us to a healing and restoration time. And through that healing and restoration, we began to understand that our spouses are not our enemy, but the enemy is our enemy. And he took us on a road to recovery, and I call it early recovery, where my husband was able to get the help that he need. And by me believing that he was getting the help that he needed, that our marriage would be okay. But what God was showing me was that I needed my own individual healing. And he took me on my journey of healing and brought us even to a greater place. Now where Pure Desire comes in is through that early recovery, we were introduced to Pure Desire material. And based on the journey we went through without Pure Desire, it helped us understand why the tools and the resources are so important that Pure Desire offers us. To get to me, I want to say total healing and to go through that process and to go through that journey and to be in a safe place to get that healing. This is where we are at today. And so that's what we offer to families at our church.

So, Jackie, it sounds like you guys feel like you kind of learned the hard way before Pure Desire and then could see, wow, all this would have helped if. If we'd only had this back then.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Very cool. Okay, well, this is the reason why we're excited to have you on today, Jackie. We're going to talk about a really important piece when getting Pure desire groups going in your church, and it's specifically how to start women's groups. I think it's really important to identify right now that starting women's groups looks differently than it does when you're starting men's groups. And we find that most churches really have an easier time setting up men's groups and getting those going and off the ground, but find that women's groups can be more challenging. So our time today will be spent talking about the uniqueness of women's groups and then how we can start and develop those groups in your church. So, Jackie, you have experience in this area, so we appreciate your take on this and we're excited to have you on. So let's just start with this. Why is it so important to have Pure Desire women's groups at your church?

It's very important to have women's groups. You know, like I said before, I think we, as women or wives, if we're married or in any kind of relationship, we have that understanding and belief that if our husbands are well, if they get better, then I'll get better and the marriage will be better. But what we fail to realize is the impact that that relationship had on us. And we need to understand our healing and where we could. We need that place. Okay. So the thing is, we need a place of safety. We need a place of healing. We need a place where we could share our side of the story and have that validation and be able to share, you know, our pain, but also get the healing that we need personally.

You know, Jackie, we've asked this question on a couple of our other podcasts, but I think it'd be great to hear your perspective as you've worked with women, because I know your church has so many groups. I'm sure in your years of doing this have had a woman say to you, you know, why do I need a group? Why should I work on myself? Because it's his problem. I don't want to be in a group. How do you respond to that woman that just feels like, I want him to fix it and I don't want to have to do anything. How do you talk to that kind of a person?

Yeah.

What I try to let her know is that it's very important that we as wives understand the addiction process and that we don't have all the answers. And there's things that we just don't know. And that if we don't get the healing that we need, that even though if our spouses get the healing, we still could be detrimental to their healing and restoration. And that's not going to fix the marriage. And they don't understand and recognize sometimes the shame that it's placed on them. They don't understand and recognize the pain that they're going through themselves or maybe what they've even brought in to the relationship. So it's very important that whatever goal that they're reaching or that they want, that they get it in their own support group.

Yeah, yeah. That's so important too, because you're looking at the family holistically. You're not just looking at the addict. You're not just looking at his actions or her actions and what they continue to do. And they're hurting of other people and their family and those around them. It's a family systems thing that we getting everybody healthy and everybody using the same language and on the same page. And then that helps them move forward, take steps to get healing.

Well, if we think about scripture, the book of Genesis tells us that the two become one. And I think that oneness goes beyond just the physical union of sex, that there's a oneness in terms of the bonding that takes place in a couple, the emotional connection, relational. And so anything that's affecting one half of the marriage equation is going to be affecting the other. And I think in all truth, God designed it that way, that we would experience things together. And so when there's been something significant or traumatic like an addiction, both are affected by it. And I just really love the way you said that, Jackie, because I think it builds on how God designed a marriage to work, that what harms one harms both. But what benefits the one, where one grow, both can grow together. And we just hear all the time from couples who, especially when the wife maybe started out real skeptical or uncertain, and they both are able to go through a group experience and have healing. Just the difference that makes in their lives. And I've never heard a woman say, oh, I regret having to be in a group that coming out the other side, Women are always so glad for the investment in that time and what it did in their lives as much as what it did in their marriage.

Absolutely. And I'm a fixer. I like to fix things. So when I became aware of the addiction process and what it was doing to my husband, then getting the information I was Able to effectively help my husband and just see him in a different light. So. Which made both of our recoveries better.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So, Jackie, we've been talking at least up to this point in your story, as the woman who's been betrayed has been living with a husband who has an addiction. But we have other kinds of groups as well. So tell us a little bit just about the groups that Pure Desire has and what options women might have to pursue their healing.

Okay, so the groups that we offer is the Betrayal and Beyond group, and that's for women who have gone through betrayal. And then the other group we have are the eight pillars for women, and that's for women who have their own struggles with sexual addiction and love addiction. And then I also like to offer the behind the mask for our young women, our teenagers, because for us as women, that's usually where things get started. As a teenager, our viewpoint of sexuality. And as a young person, you know, going through a behind the mask, we get a better of what healthy sexuality is, and we could walk into a healthier relationship as we get older.

So let me ask you this question then, because I think a lot of people tend to think that this is just a man's issue. And so do you. I mean, do you have women in your church who are a part of eight pillars that those groups that are struggling with sex addiction?

Absolutely, we do. And how that got started was the women who were coming into the betrel and beyond group. When we go through the first lessons, when we learn about the addiction cycle and how it affects the brain. I mean, I had women coming up to me, you know, after group and says, you, Jackie, this is what I'm going through. I recognize this is a struggle in my life. And so we were able to set them aside from the betrayal process and then start them through the process of the eight pillars. Because they recognize that they were the choices that they were making in the acting out that they were doing had something to do with their relationships. And so they wanted to get that healing process taken care of first.

Well, and I feel like there's this shame that follows women who struggle with sex addiction because it is primarily thought of as a man's issue. So there must be something wrong with me if I actually struggle with it, because it's not actually a women's issue. But we even see statistically that it is a women's issue even in the church as well. So knowing that those groups are there is really important.

So, Jackie, on the behind the Mask group for young women, Would you say that that's more for women who are already having a struggle of some kind, whether it's with pornography or fantasy or broken relationships? Or is it more proactive for women to develop health and how to have healthy relationships? Or is it for both?

I would say it's for both. It is for both. And what we're finding out in the behind the Mask is that there are young teenagers who are struggling, and with this technology age and what they're exposed to, they're experiencing a whole lot more than what we did 20 years ago. And so that shame factor is implanted in them very early. But also the material that is displayed behind the mask, it gives you scenarios. And there's these young women in the book that any young woman who goes through that group can relate to.

Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so we kind of talked about this in the intro a little bit, but it seems to be a little bit easier maybe, to understand and to start and to develop men's groups in the church. Again, that probably has a little bit to do with the idea that it's just a man's issue. But why is it so challenging? And why do churches struggle with starting women's groups?

First of all, I think one of the reason would be is finding a woman who would want to lead. We find that the women, they want to go through the group, they want to get what they need to get, and then they want to move on with their lives. And so when you find a woman who says, I know other women who are struggling through this, and I want to be a part of that healing process, then that's where we can start the group. And that's where I was. It's like I'm running into many women who are going through this battle alone, and I want to bring awareness to them that there could be hope and healing and restoration, and they don't have to suffer alone. I want to walk this journey with them because I didn't have anyone to walk that journey with me. And so healing is possible. So if we could find women who are willing to do a group, that would be great. And then also to give leadership, the understanding that the women, they need a place. They need a place where they could come to and they could get the healing and restoration that they need and to be supportive with their husbands, know as their husbands are going through their own recovery also.

Yeah, we found that to be. We just found a lot of truth to that in our own story. It was about seven years ago when I shared with my church about my issues with pornography and asked for forgiveness and started groups. And that disclosure was incredibly healing for me and for our church. What I don't think we'd anticipated is how healing that was for my wife. And what came out of it was how shameful it is for a woman whose husband is struggling. They can be dealing with this sense of what's wrong with me? Why am I not enough? And so for them to step into a group like On Betrayal and Beyond is really, sometimes for a woman, feels like admitting that I'm not good enough and there's something wrong with me and something wrong with our marriage. And so you have to help not just men address the shame of why am I doing these things, what's wrong with me? But also help women address the shame of why am I not enough? And I really think that that's one of the enemy's tools in a woman's life, is to use her husband's struggles to make her feel that there's something wrong with her. And so Satan gets us both ways. He gets the men by their feelings that they're not good enough. I think, is what often drives a man into pornography because that's a place where he always feels good enough, but his behavior is what makes a woman feel like she's not good enough because of his behavior. And so I think in our churches and in communities, we have to help women see that this issue isn't about you. It's not because you're good enough. And when it comes to sexual addiction and fantasy, no woman in the world could ever be enough, because that's not how sexual addiction works. And so when you allow women to see that this process is healing and it's filled with grace and they can come out of that shame, just the hope that that can give to women's lives is incredible.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, you mentioned, Jackie, a little bit about the key for a woman who will lead it. You know, many women maybe want the group for their healing or a safe place to about talk, talk, but they get maybe a little bit of that deer in the headlights look if you say, well, could you lead a group? And we feel like, oh, man, I'm not a leader. So what have you seen that is effective in helping churches or leaders identify women who could lead and then to work alongside or to walk alongside those women to really make them effective as leaders? What have you just seen be effective in those areas of getting women into that role of leading a group?

As far as leadership, like, for our church, we have, like, A marriage pastor. And so he's hearing the stories of couples coming in. And so he would probably say to a woman, you know, what part of your healing would probably do a recovery group for wives? Would you be willing to do that? If I could get some other women together and, you know, we could start that process that way, you know, for healing. So that would be. That would be one way of doing it. But I really think that it probably would take a woman to share her story with leadership and for her to say, this is needed, this is something that would help me and help other women in our church heal from the addiction of our spouse.

So what was your experience? How did you find yourself in. In that leadership role leading women's groups?

How I found. What I found was, you know, like I said, because of my journey. And, you know, I'm not saying maybe it's my personality, but I'm always one seeking help. And I. And because I've sought help and got wrong information, you know, and was told to do this and to do that, and when I found what the answer was, then, you know, it was sharing my story. Once we shared our story, then it spreads like a wildfire, and people start coming to you. They'll find you, or people refer themselves to you. They want to talk with you. And what we realized is there's so many people hurting. We need to have a group for them to come to. And so that's basically how we got started.

Yeah, that's super cool.

You know, sometimes when women think about leading a group, they might feel like, boy, do I need to have a Bible degree? Do I need to go to some conference and be trained up? Do I need to have all this coaching? So when you talk to women about leading a group, what kind of characteristics or traits do they need to have and what kind of training do they need to have? Is this something that's a really, really difficult process, or is it something that's doable for just about anyone?

This is doable for anyone because if they're going through the recovery process themselves, you see them grabbing a hold of what they're learning. You see them applying the material. You see how it's affecting their lives. You see the changes that are happening, you know, in their. In their own lives. So when you see that, then they. You see their heart. You see a heart transformation in themselves to where they're reaching out to their sisters. So they're not trying to lead, like a Bible study, but they're there to be alongside their sisters in this journey. And so that's one of the keys that I look for. And they have an understanding of the hurt and pain that we're all going through.

I think that that's something that's important for any leader of any pure desire group, is that you don't have to have all these special credentials in order to lead. You just need to be consistent, and you need to be. You need to view it more as facilitating the group and being a part of it, because your interaction with the material and the homework is going to be just as beneficial for other people to hear in their journey as it is for you in your own journey.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. That's what I hear Jackie saying, is that the best equipping is a person's own journey. Being willing to share that with others.

Absolutely. It's just grabbing hold. We could do this. You know, I identify what you're going through, so, you know, let me share, you know, my journey with you, to give you that hope that you could have, you know, freedom and restoration in your life.

Yeah, that's so good.

So, Jackie, maybe someone's listening to this, is starting to catch a little vision to think, wow, maybe God could use me to help lead a group or to start a group in our church. Because we get many women who call and they're looking for a group, but there's nothing in their area and they're feeling like we could do this. What kind of group size do you look for? If they had one other woman willing to start, could they do it as just one on one? How big can the group get? What do you recommend in terms of when women are looking to start a group? What's the ideal size? What's too small? What's too big? Talk a little bit about that for us.

I don't think there is a too small. If you have two people, that. That is enough. It's a funny story. When we started our recovery group here at our church, you know, and we did all the right things, we put in the bulletin and, you know, people knew our story and people knew we were starting it. And so when the day came for us to start it, no one showed up. And then no one showed up the week after, and then no one showed up the week after to. I didn't even show up to my own recovery group. And it just took one day. Ernie called me, he says, honey, there are two women here waiting for this recovery group. And so I run down to the church and I talk with them, and we just. It was very small beginnings. And so it's just a willingness to say, hey, we could walk this journey together. We are a safe place for one another. We are going to learn the tools and. And we're going to get past the shame, you know, and work on the betrayal, you know, that we've gone through. We're going to work on our own trauma. And it's just having that support of one another that's needed. So it's not too small. And as far as being too big. So if you're having a group and you have more than, I believe, maybe six ladies, then you lose that personality, you lose the closeness. But that was another one of our issues, you know, early on, because we had large groups and we didn't have a lot of group leaders. So if I had, like, 15 women, you know, I was trying to conduct a Recovery group with 15 women, and it worked. We made it work.

You know, did you guys meet for six hours? Did you meet for six hours? Is that. Is that how you made 15 people work?

No, you. But you know what. What was so good about it is that I was able to get co leaders from that, because I may talk about the lesson. And then I would divide them, you know, in groups that way to where they got to know one another better. So that was my way of doing it when the group got big. And then, you know, as we develop more leaders, then I. We're able to have, you know, smaller individual groups.

So, Jackie, I want to go back to something we were talking about just a little earlier with women who are feeling betrayed and it's their husband's addiction is destroying their marriage. And obviously, when the pain gets high in a woman's life, she's going to be looking for a group on betrayal. But something we're seeing more routinely is an attitude among women that says, well, all guys do this. Pornography is just a thing in our culture. And so long. I don't want to know about it, but so long as it's not like an affair fair or other women, it's no big deal, and I don't want to worry about it. And so they're saying, I don't think I've been betrayed. So as you maybe hear a woman talking that way, how do you maybe speak into her life? Or just what kind of insights do you have? If maybe someone's feeling that way, like it's just pornography, what's the big deal?

And that is so true. What I find for some of the women who come into our group that they knew even before marriage that their spouse Had a pornography problem. And so they came with this disbelief that even in marriage, if he looks at it, it's okay. It doesn't affect our relationship. But I think, once again, they don't know what they don't know, and they're not receiving the full benefit of the marriage. They're really not understanding that they don't have their spouse's full attention, the intimacy that they're missing, you know, and what they can't give to their spouse because their spouse is, you know, medicating, you know, with pornography. So I invite them to come anyway and just see and just learn the effects of it. And then once they get into the group, they start identifying the traits and habits, you know, of their spouse and what, you know, they're not getting out of the relationship. And to understand and know what, wow, our relationship should be like this. But it's not because of the porn.

So it's like seeing. It's seeing health and other couples and other marriages that is like, oh, wow, I really want that. But then also, you could see the pain and the betrayal that other women feel in groups. And that could also be like, oh, what I'm feeling or what I have subdued in my feelings is actually the normal response when I have, you know, when my spouse is addicted to pornography or has a sex addiction addiction.

And they're seeing that, you know, the. Because they're so young in their relationship and marriage, they think this is normal. This. This is a. This is a normal relationship. We're doing, you know, our part, you know, taking care of the kids. He's going to work, he's coming home. We go to church. We. We have this routine. But I think what they're missing out is the relationship that God designed for that marriage, the intimacy and the growth, and that's not happening in their relationship. And that they understand that, you know, if nothing stops now, it's going to get worse.

Yeah, that's such a great point that sometimes you don't know what you don't know. You don't realize what you're missing. And it does feel like if. And this can happen either direction. If a woman is just settling to have a husband who's looking at porn and saying, oh, that's no big deal, or if a husband is doing the same thing, it's like they've settled for a marriage that's a little rowboat. And they just think, well, this is what it is, you know, when God's plan and what marriage could be is like this, you know, big speedboat with the big engine. It's like when couples get there and realize the level of intimacy they can have, the kind of emotional connection, the sense of bondedness that is absent when pornography or sexual addiction is present in the marriage. It just revolutionizes everything. So I love the way that you said that, Jackie.

Yeah. Yes. And, you know, and for being newly married, we believe the words of our spouse. So even if we catch them in porn, you know, and if our spouse says, but that doesn't mean anything to me, you know, you're the love of my life, that's what we. We take that in. But sooner or later, we're like, I'm not feeling. I'm not feeling the love. The love is not happening here. You know, so we have that model in our class that, you know, we have to believe the behavior and not the words. And that may be something hard for a young couple, because really, that bursts their bubble. You know, we go into a marriage young, and we're thinking the marriage is going to turn out this way. And then right away, you know, here we come in, oh, no, that's not what the marriage is about. And their bubble gets bursted. And that's a frightening thing for a young wife. It is very frightening for them.

Well, that's something that me and my wife personally have experienced when I started joining group, you know, because my. My addiction had gone before we were married, was. Was there before we were married. And. And then when she saw me going to group and saw me doing my homework and saw me being committed and going to make my phone calls each week, she established this. This trust in me that she could see that I was putting in the work. And it. What was cool is that I got to see through her and her reaction that the work that I was putting into group was benefiting not just me, but my marriage as well, and making it a safe place for her to continue to grow in her own healing. So definitely, I'm definitely resonating with that, that you believe what you see them doing, their behavior. And it will. If they're doing it, you will see it. Like, if they're doing the work, you will see the behavior.

Yes.

Well, let's get really practical here, Jackie. If someone's listening to this and at their church, they're looking to start women's groups maybe for the first time. What are some of the first steps that they need to take in order to start women's groups? Whether it's the Betrayal and Beyond or the eight Pillars or even behind the Mask.

The first Thing. If it's a woman who is interested in starting a group, I would have her share with the leadership. That's what she would like to have at the church. And then let the leadership know that she is supported by pure desire and so that everything that she needs to do a group, she will. She will have so. And then that the church itself will be supported by pure desire. And then for her to get in touch with Ashley Jamison, who is our international regional director, you know, get in touch with her, and then she would help the woman put all the steps together to start a group and to also, like I said before, if she could share her story with leadership and to share with them why this is important, for this to. For them to have in their church and the benefits that it will have for the church and the women in the church. And also, I think a big tool would be for the leadership to watch the Conquer series. That explains everything. In a nutshell, once they see that battle for purity, once they understand the addictive cycle, how it affects the brain, the tools for restoration and freedom, then they're like, I mean, I can't even see them and say, we couldn't have this because it's giving you all the tools and all the answers. And so if they have an understanding, then they'll know why it is important to have a group in their church.

It can be helpful for a woman also to, as she's talking with leadership, you know, talk through the statistics that if 60 to 70% of the men are struggling with sexual addiction or some sort of sexual brokenness in their life, that means 60 to 70% of the marriages are being harmed and destroyed by this activity. And if 25 to 30% of the women are having their own struggle with pornography or love addiction, that there's a need for this group. And so sometimes it's just elevating for a church leadership or a pastor to see if we're not addressing this topic, we're not helping. Big percentage of our people that are really in a place of brokenness and pain and to cast that vision, to say, we can help, we can do something about it, and I'm willing to be part of that solution. And so for a gal to kind of bring some of that thinking that, hey, this isn't just a couple of people in a dark room that are going to talk about their issue. This is for the majority of us that in some way are being impacted by this.

Absolutely. And then also, if they already have a men's group in their church, one of the things that, you know, works for us is that we give a letter to the men to give to their wives to let them know that there is a place for them for healing. And then why is it important for them to come to their own recovery group? And if their husband is in group and they're in group, how they could walk together in this opportunity for freedom and restoration, you know, in their marriage?

Okay, so we talked about what some first steps are. So let's just go on the other side of that. What are some big no no's or things to avoid when starting women's groups in your church?

The no nos that I could think of, just based on my own experience, is when you're looking for leaders for your group is to really make sure that the person that you have in mind that they're really understanding and doing the material and work. Because we have a lot of enthusia women, but they may not have, you know, and they're probably good at organization, or they're probably good at talking, but they may not be good at doing their work, you know, or they may not be consistent in coming in on time, or they like to talk and not give the other women the opportunity to talk. And so, you know, just making sure that, you know, you may need leaders, but let's make sure that we have healthy leaders and they really understand the material and they really have done the work. And like I said, you see the fruit, you know, of that. So that's, that's, that's one thing that I could think of.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

I just, I think, you know, something that I saw happen in my church was there's a real tendency to make it a group about bashing husbands and to be really aware of that going in, that this group is going to work through the betrayal of, of your spouse's addiction. But it is also working on you. It's working on your, your behavior and your things that you go to, to numb out and the way that you respond. And I think that I just need to be really aware that it's not a powwow where wives can come and just let their husbands have it and turns into a gossip machine. We need to be really aware of that. And I think the leadership of the church and then also the leaders, the women who want to lead these groups need to understand that it very, very quickly can become like that. So to not let that take place is important.

And that's why it's important to share the guidelines in the beginning. So they'll have that, that understanding that we stick to the script, we stick to the lesson, and we don't. We don't veer off from that at all. Because, to be honest, a lot of the women, when they do come in, they think, this is going to help me fix my marriage, or this is going to help me fix my husband, or this is going to help me keep my eye on my husband. And at the end of, you know, the group, when they graduate, they're like, I really thought that I was going to be able to fix my husband, but I end up really fixing myself. And I hear that all the time. So you could say that right from the beginning, but they still have that agenda. But if they stick to the lesson and they do their work, you see them having the transformation. So that's. That's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of what pure desire even has to offer. They. They have a script there. They have, you know, the best practices. And if we stay with that, you know, it won't be that powwow at all. I guarantee it.

Yeah, that's good. So, Jackie, one of the things we like to do in all of these podcast episodes is just to ask the guest that comes on, what are you of their final tips? And so we want to leave you with that question to share. Just as someone is listening to this, thinking about starting women's groups at their church, or maybe someone's listening, thinking about joining a group, or someone is listening just because they've really been hurt and wounded by their husband or by their wife, and they're wondering what to do, what final tips would you want to give to our listeners today along this topic of starting women's groups in your church?

One, the most important thing for me would be prayer for the individual to pray. And I know that God has placed it on their heart to do this, and if they could have someone to pray with them and to pray for them, you know, for this ministry, because, you know, the enemy doesn't want, you know, restoration of hearts and minds and marriages. And so we need that prayer covering that we find is important. And also for someone who wants to join a group or may be hesitant to join the group, is to trust the process. It may not feel comfortable, you may not be even in agreement with it, but it's a process that works, and they just have to go in with the mindset that I have to trust this process because it's effective and they will get the results that they're looking for, and then they're going to get results that they never even knew existed, you know, but that's. That's the. That's the two things that I could think is just trust the process and to pray.

Nice. Nick, do you have any tips for anybody out there who's wanting to start women's groups?

I think if someone's on the very front end of that, it's just to take seriously the amount of shame that the enemy puts on people's lives. Because you might feel like, oh, we have so many women that would benefit from this. So we're going to make it real public, and we're going to have people sign up in the back or, you know, we're going to have people. People stand up if they want to join. It's like, whoa, whoa. You don't realize just how bound up people can be in this topic. And so I think when you look at launching for the first time, it's how do you cover that whole process in grace? How do you make it clear that it's going to be very safe and confidential and that a woman could find the group or talk to a group leader without anyone else needing to know, maybe even at the beginning, without their husband knowing that they're asking these questions or looking for this help? Because when the enemy has gotten in there and said, you're all alone and if you bring this up, they will reject you or they'll kick you out of the church. That that's the kind of fear that women and men deal with when they've been bound up in this. And so if someone's looking to start just to really take that approach of, we're going to have to work really hard to get behind someone's. The lies they're listening to from the enemy and the defenses they've put up. So I think just what Jackie said about her experience, where they launched it and talked about no one showed up, like, well, that might happen. There may be small beginnings, and it may take a little bit of time where you continue that message of grace and safety and confidentiality, and you might only get a couple of women initially. Well, that's great, because you're breaking a hole in that wall. And as those women start to meet and get healthy, they're going to talk to other women, and that's going to create momentum. And one day your church culture will change enough that you can say publicly, hey, there's new groups starting, and if you're interested, here's the email. And no one will think anything of it because it just becomes part of your church's culture. But initially, if you've had nothing, you just really got to think through how do we address the shame so that we can get a few people to take those steps. And then from there, you really watch how God does a great work.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

I think the only tip I would give is start women's groups. There are. There are women in your church right now who need this. Yes. Do, like, be fully aware that there are marriages that are in shambles right now, and there are women who need support and need encouragement and need healing. So just start it. So that's. That's what I would say.

There you go.

Jackie, thanks so much for hanging out with us and talking about women's groups. We know this is such a big. A big piece to changing the culture in churches and getting families healthy. So thanks so much. Just from our perspective, thank you so much for what you do as an rgl and thanks for spending time with us today.

Thank you for having me.

Awesome. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org. also, you can find follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Sam.