020 - FAQ #1

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey. Making it great.

And we have Heather Kolb with us today. Thanks for being here, Heather.

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me.

Awesome. Okay, well, today this episode's gonna be a little bit different. This is not gonna be just on one topic. We wanted to really start and have this episode be one that's a frequently asked question. So an FAQ episode that we get a lot from specifically our Pure Desire University events. That's the event that we go across the country to churches and we really talk about the problem of sexual addiction and then talk about the neurochemistry and then really how to get it going in your church, what that looks like. So these questions are really questions we hear a lot from that event and we want to take time to answer these specific questions. So we really actually are looking forward to more of these types of episodes coming as well. So we'll talk about that at the end, about how you can get your answers to your questions here. So with that, let's just start asking some questions and get to these answers.

Yeah. Trevor, One of the things that I think is amazing as we travel around the country and get to present at these seminars is that really the problem is universal. The things people are facing are so common, and the questions we get are very familiar, whether we're in the west coast or east coast or all places in between. And so I think this episode, this has great potential because I'm guessing for many of our listeners, these may be issues that they've stumbled across and haven't been certain how to answer. And I'm looking forward for this to be on a podcast because I know at the university events, people often say how helpful the Q and A time is because they really get into some of these specific topics. So first question one, we get a lot as we present. We often talk about the healing process being a two to five year journey. And as a lot of people hear that, you know, they're thinking, give me six good weeks and I'll be on my way. So we get the question a lot. Why does it take two to five years? And what does that process look like?

So that is a great question. I think that for many people, they imagine that for the next two to five years that they're going to be going through the revolving door of sobriety and relapse. And that isn't necessarily what it's going to look like for most people. They're going to gain sobriety within the first few months. But it isn't as much gaining sobriety as maintaining sobriety. And if we have spent. We collectively, with our addictive behaviors, have spent years putting energy, brain energy into those behaviors, then it's going to take time to rewire and restructure the neural pathways in our brain. So that's really what it's about.

Yeah. And it feels like it's been a habit for so long. I mean, that's been my experience. It was a habit for about 13 years. And I can't just expect six weeks in the Conquer series to just solve all my problems, because we know that addiction is not just about just the action. It's about what I'm doing and what I'm medicating, which is my pain and my suffering and the trauma I've had in my life. And that takes more than six weeks to process through all of your junk and all of your mess that you have in your life.

Exactly.

Yeah. And Heather, you mentioned that for most people, they find a level of sobriety happening in the first few months. And I've noticed that there seems to be a correlation between the intensity with which someone comes to the process, the seriousness, or the sense of this has to change. And I'm so ready. I'll do anything. That when someone's in that place, change begins to occur, I think, quite quickly because they engage fully in the process and others come into the process a little more guarded, a little more. Well, we'll wait and see. I'm not sure how much I want to trust the process. And for them, that change can take a lot longer to set in. But what I find happening for people that are going through that process, the two to five years aren't all the same. Often that first year or the first six months are about coming out of the denial and recognizing how much we've minimized and rationalized our behavior. And as those things are getting exposed, I hear a lot of people describe it like coming out of a fog. Like, I woke up one day and I realized how much I'd been lying to myself and to others and deceiving my spouse and. And just that revelation process is so eye opening. And that continues through a lot of the first year. And then I watch how in the second year, because they're no longer in denial, they're no longer minimizing and rationalizing. When they go through the assignments a second time, I'll hear them say, did I do this before? I mean, I can't even remember answering this question. Because now their answers are less about the immediate issues and the pain they're in and how to fix their problem. And they're really able to look deeper at what happened in their past family of origin issues, messages they picked up from childhood. And as that happens, that's where the learning, I feel, really becomes long term. Because now they're not just trying to figure out how to get out of this painful place, but really deep change is occurring. And then beyond that, it's kind of up to them in terms of do they continue to help by leading a group and take others through this process? Do they engage in other material like the genesis process, or maybe a small group with their wife where they're being much more open and vulnerable. But it's just looking at how do I now take all these things that have happened in the first year or two and solidify them? And one of the things we say is that we're not just here to teach you how to stop a behavior, that this is really about changing your life. And when you think about changing your life, two to five years, well, that's really not that long. You're talking about a total life change, and it's so worth it. So that's the other thing I try to remind people. Two to five years, maybe. We ask kind of that economical question of is it really worth that much time? And every person I talk to that's walked through this journey and is on the other end of it looks back and says, yes, yes, it's worth everything you invest. And if it does take that long, it'll be okay, so be it.

Yeah, for sure. Great. Okay, well, first question's done. Let's move on to the second one. So kind of what I was talking about earlier, we hear this question a lot about addiction being a way to medicate your pain. And then really the pain that's caused by trauma in your life. But what if somebody doesn't have big trauma in their life? What then?

Well, I think that's a common response for many people. In fact, our counseling staff says that 90% of the clients they work with come from, quote, unquote, good Christian homes. And we think of trauma in a very narrow. Through a very narrow lens, that it's only those major things like being in combat or being raped or being, you know, very violently abused as a kid. And those situations happen and they are terrible. But if that's our only definition of trauma, we can miss other things that happen in our life. So a couple things that are helpful for me to remember. Trauma is trauma, not because it's trauma to your adult brain. Trauma is trauma if it was traumatic to your childhood brain. So if at 5 years old, every day when you came home from school, your dad was busy reading the paper and barely took the time to notice that you were there. And well, that may not seem traumatic in the scope of someone who's been in a war, but to your five year old brain, that's traumatic to know why doesn't my dad care about me or seem to acknowledge my existence? And that can create wounds. So that's one thing that's helpful for me. And then the second thing that I encourage people to think about is that we're not looking to blame our past or blame the people in our past, but just to recognize the reality of what happened. And the reality is that hurt people hurt people and broken people break people and wounded people wound people. And so if you were raised by Jesus, then you wouldn't be hurt. But none of us got to be raised by Jesus. We were raised by normal, fallen, sinful parents. And even if they were awesome parents, they had their own issues. And where their issues met our neediness, it creates trauma. And so when we talk about trauma, we just say, let's look at what did we learn about ourselves and recognize it may have impacted us for life.

Yeah, and I think that two people think that because they didn't sustain childhood trauma, that they have no trauma. And trauma can happen to you as an adult as well. So just having that level of awareness that you don't have to put your trauma in a box or in a certain age range, but that trauma is trauma and it's significant. And if it impacted you and your behavior, then it's definitely something to look at.

Well, let me give like a little example. You know, as you guys are saying that an example that's coming to my mind is, you know, I played baseball my whole life and I was on some pretty good teams and I tended to be, you know, one of the players, at least defensively, that can make some really great plays. And I remember one play in particular where I'm playing in the infield and I head out to the outfield to catch a pop fly. I make this catch and I remember it was, I mean, it's one of the greatest catches I've had in my life. I'm feeling great. I. I get back to the dugout, and I find out that there are parents of the other kids saying, trevor's being a ball hog. He's taking the ball away from people. And the thing is, without explaining the rules of baseball, I'm supposed to go get it until someone tells me they have it. No one told me. And I remember thinking, I just made a great play. And baseball had already taught me that my life, my value, comes from how I perform. And then I just performed, and someone said, actually, that's not good. And I remember thinking in my head, I will never be good enough. And so that was a traumatic event. And that's been a theme through my life since then. So learning that it's not just this big stuff, that's just an example of something that seems small but has had a big impact.

If you think about someone that was in an accident and sustains brain trauma, when we're describing that trauma, we're not blaming the car for the accident they got in. What we're looking at is what happened in their brain, and where is there some damage. So when we're inviting people to look at trauma or woundedness in their life, it's not to blame others or the circumstances, but to look at what impact did it have on my thinking and my ways of viewing myself.

Yep, absolutely.

Yeah, that's excellent. So here's another question that we frequently get. When a church is beginning groups, do they start with the men's groups and the women's groups at the same time, or do they stagger the start of each group? What does that look like?

Yeah, I think that it's a question we do get a lot. And I've experienced this, you know, bringing pure desire to a church as well. And I think that more often not. We see churches start the men's groups first. That's not necessarily how we would like to have them do it. It would be best if we could have both men's and women's groups. But again, the church tends to think this is primarily a men's issue, and so the groups make sense to start right away. But what we see is that then it has this kind of staggered effect where men are getting healing and understanding and developing some healthy habits. And then they realize. Their wives realize, wow, like, okay, so some things are changing, but I'm still having struggles. I need someone to talk to. I need a group to go to. I need some outlet. And that's when women's groups tend to start. And that's what ended up happening at the church I was at when we brought Pure Desire was it started with men's groups and then women's groups, you know, kind of started to come up to the surface as something that's important. But I think that it is really important to communicate that we would prefer that you start them both at the same time so that healing is happening at the same time and not the staggered kind of way.

Yeah. I think when you look at starting groups, it's really a question of leadership, who's ready to lead? And so if you have men or women coming to the church or to staff and saying, hey, we need to address some issues in our life, because it could be women that are having issues of their own with love addiction or sex addiction, and maybe they're ready to face it first. And if they say, and we'll help lead or we'll get a little training so that we can start the group, if you have men and women ready to step into that role, then you can start both. So it's really a question of who's ready to engage in the process and able to lead. And that could be a woman first, that could be men first, or it could be both. And so if you're a staff member, a leader at a church looking to say, well, how do we start groups? Just look at who's ready, look at who's coming to you and saying, we need something. And if it's the men, dive in with the men, because like you said, it'll have a trickle down effect, a ripple effect to the women. And if it's the women who are saying we're hurt or wounded or we're struggling, start with them because they'll get healthy and that'll impact the husbands and the men in their life.

Yeah, yeah. Because ultimately you need both groups in churches really to get families healthy. And that's what we see for sure.

So next question here, kind of a big one and one that is very prevalent to what's happening in our society and culture in general. And it's on the minds, I think, of a lot of people when they think about pure desire and they think about sexual addiction issues and attraction issues. We're getting this question at pretty much every event we do. What about people who are struggling with same sex attraction? Are there groups for them or how does Pure Desire offer help for someone that's in that place?

Yeah, so we, my experience, we had a couple guys in our groups who had this struggle. And I mean, to answer the question flat out, we don't have groups right now set up just for people who struggle with same sex attraction. And you know, Heather, you can help me out with this a little bit too. But I would be careful to couple the idea of same sex attraction or homosexuality with sex addiction. I'm not sure they're the same thing. But what we've seen though is that regardless of your level of attraction to either gender, this can still be very helpful to be in groups because you're still processing through your addiction or ways that you numb out. And then also you're going to find healing emotionally as well to just figure out what's really going on underneath the surface.

Well, and the other thing to keep in mind, even with same sex attraction, is that it really is when you look at the behavior, the behavior is not the issue. The behavior is the symptom of something deeper. And if you look at same sex attraction as really just being the way that perhaps a sexual addiction is going to manifest itself, then the groups would be a great place to start. The other thing to keep in mind too is that as a group leader, you want to make sure that you're protecting the group and the other members in your group. And so you would, if it's disclosed that someone is struggling with same sex attraction, you want to make sure that there's nobody in the group that is a trigger for that individual. So that's something that you definitely would want to address as well.

Yeah, you want it to be a safe place. And that's part of why we don't have groups specifically for same sex attraction. There's some intentionality behind that, because creating a group for that almost says, well, this issue is different. This issue you can't wear, work on like other people. You have to go do it in a different way. And what we recognize is the root issues are so similar. Many of the men that we work with in groups have some sort of same sex story as part of their history. And so what happens for someone that's struggling in that area is actually the way it can bring them out of shame to see that, oh, the things I experienced are not uncommon. The things I battle aren't that different. They just, they led to some different outcomes in my life. But the core issues that I have to face are the same. And so if they can feel comfortable being in a group without being triggered, it really is a tremendous eye opening experience because the lie they're listening to is what you're different and your struggles makes you particularly weird or shameful. So don't Talk about that. But we just say if you can engage in the group, I think it'll be so life giving to see you've got a lot in common. And it also creates a place where they're able to trust other men and bond with other men in a healthy, godly way. And so we really recommend, if you're struggling with same sex attraction and it's not something you want in your life because pure desire is clear about that, that if someone says, hey, I've got same sex attraction issues, but that's the lifestyle I want to live, if they're making that choice, then really they're looking at a different ministry and that's great, but we want someone who's saying, I'm struggling with this and I wish I wasn't, that groups can be a really, really effective place of change for them.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so next question is I think one that a lot of groups can struggle with. So let's just ask this. What if you have a group member who comes to group each week but doesn't do their homework? What should we do?

Yeah, this is a common one, Trevor. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier about the level of intensity someone brings to the process really correlates pretty directly with how quickly will change start to set in. And, and we're very intentional in groups up front to create these group guidelines and standards. And it's not because we're trying to be hard nosed or mean or you know, make people work super hard. It's because we've seen this is what it takes to change. This is what creates an effective change group. And it doesn't work to just show up at group and expect the group to fix you. Group is an experience of coming and sharing what I've been learning all week long. And as I'm processing that internally and doing the work of really figuring out my stuff, thinking through my past and writing that out on paper, I mean that process engages our whole brain and then sharing it becomes the other half of the equation where I take what I've done personally and now becomes public to my group. That's the process that transforms us. And so if someone isn't doing their homework, it's really an issue of they're not ready to engage in change. And we need to be honest with that person both for their own good, for the good of the group to say to them, you know, if you're not doing the work, it's not going to work for you and you're going to be discouraged and frustrated and want to blame the group or blame us. And so if you're not able to do the homework, you're not really ready to engage in this process. And usually there's a conversation that happens, you know, early on, and we encourage that to be gracious and yet truthful. And then if the pattern continues, asking the person to step out of group and say, hey, in a month, I'll follow up with you and I'll find out where you're at and if you're ready to engage fully. But it's not a bad thing to ask someone to step out of group because it may be what they need to realize, unless I take this serious, it's not going to work.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

So I think another thing I'd add to that, too, is just knowing. And this is a conversations I've had as well with group members who weren't doing homework was, you know, understand that your answers will add a lot of value to everyone else in the group. Because maybe I'm thinking through stuff and I'm going through the homework, and I'm not really sure. I'm unsure about if I've really unveiled everything, if I've kind of figured out or thought through this well enough, and then someone else's answer in group, I can be like, oh, yes, okay, totally. That makes sense. I'm resonating with that, and I write that down. And that kind of helps shape my healing journey even more. And so there's a lot of value in doing your homework because your answers can be just as beneficial to other people as their own work in group. And so just to take that into consideration, and if you have someone not doing work, communicate that to them that they're actually taking away from the group because their answers could add so much value.

Yeah, that's good. So we also hear questions a lot about people not knowing how to approach their church. If they feel like they're the ones, that they're getting healthy, they want to be healthy, but their church doesn't seem to be open to starting groups. What should they do?

Yeah, I think in that situation, you find that churches are dealing with maybe a lot of different reasons why they're not open to starting groups. And one of the best things a person can do in that situation is just approach an appropriate person in leadership or a staff member that maybe oversees groups or recovery or, you know, spiritual life in the church, and just tell your story, talk about your experiences and what you've seen in groups and what you know about pure Desire, then the other thing I say is really encourage their skepticism. If they've got questions, say yes, I'd love to have you investigate and call Pure Desire. Because we really feel the more someone knows, the more they recognize how good and healthy this can be. And another thing to bring up with a church or someone in leadership is that this is not an intensive process or a drain on the church because the groups have a way of self replicating leadership. They don't require that a leader go off to some specialized training and take all this time and money and effort. It's really the leaders are people that are experiencing the change in their own life. And so you want staff that can oversee it in terms of providing some spiritual covering and some encouragement and accountability. But it doesn't need to take much of their time and effort at all because it'll be run by the people that are in the groups. And so those are things to look at up front. And then you're still getting kind of a, you know, just a wall of we're not ready for this, we don't want this. I think it's appropriate to look for permission to say, I recognize this won't be a church thing, but would it be okay if a group of us met here? Because a church can be a safe, confidential place to hold your meetings. And if, and many church say, well, yeah, I mean, we like you and if you want to host this group, we'll make sure there's a room open. And what can happen in that situation is as four or five people are meeting and getting healthy, they're starting to talk to others, that over time a church begins to take note and say, wow, something's happening here. Like these people in that group are different. They're more free, they're more committed, they engage. I try to tell pastors all the time, I think this is the best discipleship you could ever do. Because when someone is bound up sexually, that's core to our being. And that means we're going to be bound up everywhere. But if we get free there, because that's core to our being, we start to feel free everywhere. And we become better at serving, we become better at helping, at leading, at worshiping. We raise our hands in worship because we don't feel all the guilt and shame. And so I just try to say there's so many reasons this will benefit your church that if you'll give it some space and make room for it to start happening, I really believe you'll see the benefits that happen.

Yeah, the other Thing I can, the two other things I could think of just practically is ask the leadership if they're not wanting to open up groups or start this ministry, ask them to watch the Conquer series. You know, watching an hour, five one hour discs is a lot easier than going through an entire group to do the research. The Conqueror series is a great thing for that. And then really being open to the fact that even though groups are not going at your church doesn't mean there aren't groups going at other churches in your area. And knowing that you can also join those groups there, just because your leadership maybe isn't supportive with you starting groups at your church doesn't mean that your healing shouldn't still be taking place place. So really being open to being a part of other churches groups if you need to as well.

So here's another question we get on the brain. So it's right up your alley, Heather. We talk a lot about how pornography negatively affects the brain. And so how do I heal my brain? Is it possible to heal the brain?

It is possible because the human brain is really capable of great change and wants to be healthy. But again, it's going to take time and intention. People think that if I just stop watching pornography that my brain is going to get better and it's going to heal itself. And that's a good first step. But that in and of itself is not going to be enough because we have to be able to take those old behaviors, abstain from those old behaviors, and then replace them with something new and replacing them with something that is not only good for our brain, but good for our body, good for our soul and, and really taking more of a holistic approach in our healing process. So even things like exercise, eating well, getting enough sleep at night, those are really good things for your brain. And those are going to be healthy ways to establish new neural pathways. But it's also putting other things into place, like meditating on scripture, breathing exercises throughout the day, other things that, you know, positive self talk, you know, replacing those negative messages, those lies that you hear in your head that I'm not enough or that I'm never going to be enough, that you replace those with something positive. And so I think that those are good places to start. But again, it's going to take time and being intentional with, you know, replacing those neural pathways.

Well, when I think of Colossians 3, the idea of taking off the old and putting on the new, and I think that we see it's biblically supported that new habits, replacing those old Habits with new, healthy habits is very beneficial for us spiritually. And now we're seeing too emotionally and sexually. All right, cool. This is another great question. And really, Heather, I think that, you know, you can help us with this, too. We do have an episode on is it really an addiction? And people can go back and listen to that. But this is really a question we get pretty often. How do you get men and women to see that there is a problem when it comes to sexual addiction?

That is a great question.

And.

And I think that people don't necessarily understand what addiction, what that word means and how we apply it at pure desire. And usually when we're talking about addictive behaviors, they have three typical elements to them. The first one is that you have a behavior that you've tried to stop and that you haven't been able to stop on your own, that the behavior is something that you've been struggling with for a long period of time. So for probably years. Or we get people who work with pure desire that they've been struggling 20 and 30 and 40 years, for sure. But anything that's been pervasive in your life, and then also that you still engage in the behavior even though it has caused you negative consequences, those are typically the things that you see that drive an addictive behavior. Again, there's a lot of things that we can put in those behaviors that could even be circumstantial, but especially when it comes to our sexual behaviors, it's definitely something that you want to consider looking at the behavior and whether it's really causing the person distress in their lives. That's also a good indication that they have a problem.

Yeah. One of the things I like to bring up with people when they're processing, you know, is it really an addiction? Isn't that going overboard? And particularly if we grew up in a Christian church, an evangelical church, we may have a very negative strength, stereotyped image of addiction that's very extreme, you know, only about drugs and narcotics. But to take what you just talked about, Heather, and say, you know, addiction can happen to any one of us. In fact, Ted Roberts has said in a number of different places, he'll say that we were all born to be addicted to Jesus. But in a fallen world, we learn to be addicted to something else. And I think that's helpful for us to think through that. Our brain is kind of made for addiction. But when it's healthy, we don't call it addiction. We call it habits or behaviors. So if it's really being absorbed with Our relationship with Christ or our family or healthy friendships. In a sense, we're addicted to those things. But it's what our brain wants. And so anyone can be struggling with addictions. And when we open ourselves up to that idea, then we can really look at our behavior. And so what I was starting to say, I'll ask someone if the behavior is something they feel like is common. Everybody does it. Because that's one line of thinking, well, this is no big deal. It's not hurting anyone. I'll ask, are you also feeling like. But no one can know about it, It's a secret.

You have to hide it.

Because those two things most people believe and don't realize how contradictory it is. That on the one hand, I'm saying, everybody does this, it's no big deal. But I have to hide it and can't tell anybody. It's like, well, which is it? Either it's not a big deal and you could just tell everybody about it, or it is kind of a big deal and it's a secret that you need to deal with. So when we can recognize places in our brain where there's cognitive dissonance, there's a disagreement in our thinking that doesn't make sense. That's a good indication that we've rationalized a behavior that really could be addictive in our life and we need to take it seriously.

Cognitive dissonance, look at. You should be the one teaching the neurochemistry now. You know, another just quick, practical thing with that is if someone is really having a hard time identifying that it is an addiction, have them take the Sexual Addiction Screening Test, the SAS test, and we have that available on our website and then also in our resources. And it really is a way to just make it black and white. Yes, you are addicted or no, you're not. And yeah, some people would be surprised, I think, by the answers that they have. But that's just a really simple way as well, to get people to identify that there's a problem.

That's great. So here's another question that we hear often. How do you know if your spouse is actually getting healthy?

Yeah, that's a great question. Because one of the things we can struggle with when we're trying to come out of addiction and change our behavior is we've learned to rely on our words and often promises. And usually those promises are fairly empty. They're meant to just pacify someone or help reduce their anger. Because I'm going to change. It'll never happen again. This time will be Different. And so one of the statements we use is learn to trust their behaviors, not their actions. So you really want to look at what are you seeing in their life. And there's three areas I think in particular that someone can watch for. Because addiction to pornography is about isolation. It's about medicating our pain, and it's about an intimacy disorder. And so if those are three characteristics of sexual addiction or a struggle with pornography, then I could look at, well, what behaviors might. I see that that's changing. So coming out of isolation, is my spouse getting more engaged in community? Are they making phone calls to members of their group? Are they going to group? Are they developing friendships? Those are great signs that, hey, isolation in their life is breaking. Second would be pain avoidance. If your spouse has always been a procrastinator. Avoiding hard tasks, finding ways to remove themselves from hard conversations or difficult situations. And you see that beginning to change. Where they have the hard conversation, they stay present. They don't just disappear and numb out to entertainment or something else. Then you can see they're not avoiding pain anymore. They're facing what they need to face. And that's a huge, huge indicator. And then the intimacy disorder. Intimacy is all about emotional connection. It's not just simply physical and about sex, but it's about, am I willing to be vulnerable and known and discover that even when I'm known, I'm loved? And so looking for that in your relationship, are they opening up to me emotionally? Are they becoming aware of my emotions, how I'm feeling, what I'm going through? Because that shows an awareness that goes beyond themselves. Addiction is entirely about being self focused and about my pleasure or my good feeling feelings. Intimacy is about being aware of another. And so when we see someone growing in their emotional health and engaging in that level with us, that's a really good indicator that they are changing.

I think too that you need to look for really sustainability in the behaviors. Is it something that maybe for two weeks they've come out of isolation, they're making connection, they seem to be more engaged, but then after a couple weeks they're going back into their previous behaviors. And so I think that a lot of times spouses will say, that's great, I love seeing these changes in you, but I want to see them for the long haul. And so that's something else to be aware of.

Yeah, that's really important in a relationship, especially because as an addict, as we start to change, we feel so good and we want that trust to come back right away. And we Want them to notice right away. And sometimes it takes time because a spouse can be a little hesitant, like, hey, I love what I'm seeing, but they might fear I've seen some of this before, and then it just went right back to where it was. And so because they're waiting for the other shoe to drop, they need to see this time's different. This isn't just a good month or two. This is like a new way of doing life.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

So here's one that our listeners maybe have wrestled with in their relationships, particularly with a spouse, where the person who's struggling with pornography or with an addiction feels like their spouse wants to know every detail of their struggle. Struggle, maybe even all the way down to, you know, kind of fantasies do they have. Or on the flip side, maybe someone listening is the spouse who's like, I need to know every single detail. And I guess the question would be, is that healthy for the spouse to know every single detail of the addict struggle and what they battle with mentally?

Well, I think that when a spouse wants all the details, they think that they want all the details, but will be very surprised at the lack of healing that comes from knowing all the details. They'll probably actually be hurt even more and more upset. And so I think that the answer is really no. You shouldn't share every single detail. You know, we can talk about full disclosure, giving your sexual history, but giving the details of my fantasy life and the details of really every sexual thing that I've ever done, really, it just doesn't seem to bring healing. It seems to bring trauma specifically to that spouse and then really just more pain and turmoil in the relationship.

In the curriculum, we have addicts do a full disclosure to their group that would include a lot of those details, but that's going to look different than the disclosure that they do with their spouse when the time comes.

Yeah, we had this experience in our own journey of. For 10 years in my marriage, I was struggling with pornography and I did what my upbringing in the church had taught me to do, and that was to confess. And so every year, once or twice a year, when I'd feel guilty enough, I'd kind of spill it all again to my wife and she'd ask for some of the details of, well, what did you look at and who was it and what were you thinking about? And we didn't know any better at that time. So I shared some of those details. And as we went through our healing journey. So this is like now a 10 year gap between some of those initial confessions and our healing journey, there were things my wife would remember that I had no recollection of. People that maybe I'd said I was attracted to or a movie that had caused me to stumble totally off of my recollection, but to her was still a trigger. And she realized, like, wow, that isn't healthy for me. And I think what a spouse can get caught up in is thinking, if I know all of it, if I know everything, I'll understand it and I'll feel better. And it's just not the truth. And partly because sexual addiction and pornography doesn't make sense. You can't make sense out of something that is sinful or broken or twisted. And so knowing all of it isn't going to make it better. It's only going to make it worse in a lot of ways. And so if a spouse can take a deep breath and let go of some of that need to know everything and maybe get some good input from their group or another woman, or if it's a man, another man to say, hey, do you think it'd be helpful for me to know this? Let someone else give some input. Because if my wife were on this podcast, she would say to every woman, she'd say, honey, I know you think you want to know, but you don't. You need to know the truth of his behaviors. You need to know where he's actually been and those kind of things. But when it comes to fantasy and thought life and who do you find attractive, it's only going to cause pain for you that for him, it's just part of the way his guy brain is wired. And trying to understand a guy's brain if you're the galaxy, is going to be a frustrating process and vice versa. So if you can let go of that a little bit and look at our previous question. What behaviors are you seeing and what do you know about the truth there? That that's the foundation for healing well.

And it's not really going to establish more trust. We think that it is like, I'll trust you if you share all your details with me, but then that just gives me more reason to not trust you. Now I know when a certain person's walking down the street or seeing a movie, you know, with your experience with your wife, Nick, it's like she then knows all of these details and then actually causes her to not trust you more. Actually causes her to mistrust you more because of those details. All right, so last question. We are wrapping up our Frequently Asked Questions episode this has been really cool, guys. Thanks for doing this. But let's just end with this. Should we tell our kids about the addiction? So if we've got a married couple or a divorced couple or any couple that has kids and addiction is a part, should they tell their kids about the addiction and what should they tell them?

So I always encourage parents to tell their kids that, yes, absolutely. You need to tell your kids what's going on. And especially because a lot of parents think that they're hiding their struggles so well, and they're not. Kids are so perceptive and they know that something's wrong here, something's going on in the family. They not only know it, they can tell in your behaviors, but they can feel, they feel the stress. And so it is really important that you tell your kids what's going on. Not every detail and definitely at an age appropriate level that they're going to understand. So if you have small kids, for example, at home, it might be something that you say, you know, that as a couple, you sit down and you say, you know, daddy hurt mommy's feelings and daddy needs to work really hard to make mommy feel loved and safe again. And that's what we're working on. And so you put it in a language that they can understand, but it helps them also to feel safe that, okay, that they were right, that something is going on, but that they don't need to worry about it. Mommy and daddy have it handled, they're working on it. And that as a family, you're going to work together toward healing.

I think the question too is, is my healing only for me or is it also for others? And a faith perspective always says, what God does in my life, he wants to do for others also. And so if we get healthy as a couple and, you know, we get rid of the addiction and are walking in health, but never share it with our kids. We're kind of saying to our kids, well, it's up to you to figure this out on their own. And unfortunately, that's what most people have experienced. I hear it all the time. They'll say, why didn't my mom or dad talk to me about this? Or if they did talk to me about sexual things, why didn't we ever talk about healthy sexual things? And so if, even if we have older grown kids, we might think, well, it's too late. No, it's not too late to open that door and share your story and what God has done. Because very likely they're struggling with stuff in their life. And if you would be vulnerable and real and open the connection you have with them as their parent. Even if you don't have a great relationship, they are designed by God to want to hear what you have to say and model themselves after you. And if they see mom or dad getting help, healthy and changing, if they're in their 20s or 30s and they're battling this also, it's gonna make a big difference in their life. And then if your kids are younger, we have that decision as parents of who is gonna build the framework for sexuality in my child's life. And unfortunately for way too many kids, it's our culture that's building that framework. And usually that's built on secrecy and shame and real feelings of isolation. But if a family, if a mom and dad can help build that framework in a child's brain of what is healthy sexuality, why did God give us our bodies? Why do they work the way we do? And that's not to say we have to be experts in it, but just to share what we know, to share our story. Like you said, Heather, at an age appropriate level allows our kids to start to see the world and their bodies through a healthy lens. And it makes a difference then when garbage comes in, because sooner or later, everyone's going to come across some filth or something in the world that they didn't want, they weren't looking for. In fact, most people that I talked to in groups, that's their story. It started before they were ready and before they knew what to do with it.

Yeah.

Well, what if, as parents, we created that framework so when it happened, when something came onto their screen or their device, they knew what to do with it and they knew how to talk about it. That makes such a difference. So, again, my encouragement to anyone listening is, your healing doesn't stop with you. God's doing something in your life so that God can do something in your family. And whether your kids are 5 or 45, you have a voice and can make a difference in their life. Yeah.

Amen to that. Well, cool, guys, this wraps up our first FAQ episode. And thanks just for offering your expertise. I'm sure this will be really helpful.

I know there's. We just scratched the surface on the questions that are out there.

That's right.

You know, we go a whole hour on the university with frequently asked questions, and so we hope that we get many more.

Yeah, yeah. And speaking of that, we hope that this episode really brings value. And if you want to submit your course questions for future FAQ episodes, there are a couple ways you can do this. You can email your questions to infoouredesire.org using the subject line PD Podcast. So again, that's email your questions to infouredesire.org using the Subject line PD Podcast. Or you can post your question on social media using the hashtag pdfaq. Again, that's pdfaq. So if you have questions and you want them to get on the podcast and us to address those, and these are two great ways to do it. So again, thanks Nick Heather, thanks again.

Glad to be here and thank you.

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