021 - Disclosing to Your Kids

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we are so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Let's roll.

And we are excited to have back with us Jackie Chambers. Jackie, thanks for being with us.

I'm so glad to be here again. Thank you.

We love Jackie. We are team Jackie for sure. So we're excited to have you, Jackie, back on. I know that we talked about this a couple episodes ago, that Jackie is one of our regional group leaders and is a group leader at her church in Texas with her husband. But today, we want to kind of change gears from our last conversation. We want to talk about specifically disclosing addiction to your kids. We want to talk through really why it's important, how best to disclose and give some tips to consider when you decide that it's time to disclose to your kids. So are you guys. You guys ready to do this?

Yeah, let's do this.

Absolutely.

All right.

Hey, Trevor, as you were reading the introduction, it occurs to me we've had some of our regional group leaders on. I don't know if we've ever asked one of them to just explain what is a regional group leader. And maybe some of our listeners are thinking, boy, regional group leader. That sounds awesome. What's a regional group? And how do I get in one? And that's not really what it is. So, Jackie, would you just explain from your perspective, what do you do as a regional group leader for Pure Desire? What does that mean?

A regional group leader is a person who is over different regions in the state, and I'm over the central region, the central southern region, and churches who use the Pure Desire material or have Pure Desire groups in their church. We are there to support them in their. In their groups. So any questions they may have, any things that come out new that Pure Desire does, we're able to give to them and just to walk alongside with them to know that they're. They're supported and they stay up to date and they have a place where they could call and come to whenever they need any help.

So you're like a coach for anyone in your region that has groups and needs a little bit of assistance?

Yes, yes. And it gives them the opportunity to know that they're not doing this alone. And what I like about it is the fact that we have a podcast, we have tools when new material comes out, I'm able to communicate that to them. You know, you want to be aware of this, for instance, the recovery action plan that just came out. So that's something that I'm getting out to them to let them know about that, to let them know that there's a podcast on that. And so they're always aware of any changes or anything new that comes in and any struggles that they may go through that we're here to help them and support them in.

Yeah. And we know you guys are there because you've had a lot of experience and in some ways are our regional group leaders have. They've. They've paid the dumb tax by seeing the hard things or things not work. And so we really encourage our listeners to lean on your regional group leaders for input and advice and even just someone to give you some direction when you're feeling kind of down as a leader. So thank you, Jackie, for serving in that role. Well, let's start. The topic for this podcast is on disclosure. And I know we've talked about disclosure a little bit in some other podcasts, but, Jackie, would you define for us disclosure? What is disclosure?

So disclosure is coming to a place of honesty and transparency, confessing your secret sins, building trust and accountability in relationships. It's like bringing everything out on the table, exposing the secret life, and declaring that my family or my relationships are more important than the secret life that I had hidden. And it removes all the doubts and questions and lies that their family were facing.

Yeah. And we see disclosure as something that we encourage after a period of healing that a husband discloses to his wife or a wife discloses to her husband. So we know that disclosure is definitely a part of the process. And, Jackie, you and Ernie have a really, really cool story. God's done a lot in your lives and brought tons of healing to you. And then as you guys have this role now as groups leaders and a regional group leader, that you are now bringing that healing to other people. So in your story, you and Ernie had disclosure of his addiction to your kids. So just tell us this. In your experience, is it important to disclose to your kids when sexual addiction is present in the home?

The experience that we had, and it just. It makes me emotional because I'm so grateful and thankful for God's hand on our life was during the time when me and Ernie were separated and he was going through his journey of recovery. Our girls, they were probably 13 and 8, and he had disclosure with them. Now, at the time of that or during that time, our children were going through their own little battles and struggles that, you know, kids in that age group go through. My oldest one was in junior high. And at the time, we didn't recognize that she was being bullied and to the point to where she was contemplating suicide. And because we were just in a place of separation, she couldn't do any things with her friends that she wanted to do. So she was feeling worthless at the time. And because we were separated, she was thinking that they were not perfect enough for us to stay together, and we just didn't recognize it. We didn't know that they were struggling. My youngest one was, she's sweet, she's quiet, but she was having struggles in school. And so they became shut down to us because I think we were so busy, you know, with our own lives and getting our own healing. But when that time came, for my husband to have disclosure with them, it brought a sense of security for them, a sense of hope and to know that everything will be okay. Because my daughter in junior high, what she was discovering or experiencing was her friends around her. Their parents were getting divorced, and here she is. Is that going to be my parents, too? So when Ernie had the opportunity to share, you know, what has been going on and what he's doing and his plans for the future, it brought healing to her heart.

So, Jackie, in your story with you and Ernie being separated, it may have forced some of the disclosure issues because your kids are obviously where something's going on, and why is dad not in the home? But for many couples who are listening, when they're dealing with sexual brokenness or issues with pornography in the marriage, a lot of this can be happening behind closed doors, and the kids don't know much about it, if anything. And maybe as they're hearing it and they're hearing you talk about laying out all your secret sins, they feel like that's horrible. And why would we do that to our kids? We're just gonna fix it quietly and privately and then move on because we don't want to hurt our k. We don't want to inflict harm on them. They don't really need to know. So how would you respond to that? Sort of a couple who just feels like, boy, it's better if the kids don't know.

Well, I can guarantee the kids know something. You know, we think they don't know. We think they don't listen, we think they don't see. And we think that in our family that everything is normal as long as we're, you know, taking them to soccer practice, as long as we're feeding them, as long as we're doing our routine, that there isn't something wrong, but emotionally there could be something wrong. And so it's not that we have to give the gory details to our kids, but we need to let them know that there's something in our household that is not right and that we're on the journey for healing. And based on their age group, we can share that with our kids to let them know that this is a place of safety and security. What has been going on in the past, it's not going on anymore. And we're on the track to where there's going to be some healing in our household.

So let me ask a follow up question to that because it's something I've been thinking about in preparation for this episode and thinking about this topic is I have a 9 month old son and right now in my life, where I'm at, I have been experiencing freedom for about two years. That's where the process is for me. And so at what point, I mean, I guess here's the question, if I have young kids now and they weren't alive or around when the addiction was happening, is disclosure still important to give to your kids who weren't around during that addiction?

I believe disclosure is important and may not look like disclosure, but it's an opportunity with what we need to do with our kids anyway is to train them and to express to them what healthy sexuality is. And we need to start that at an early age. And so when you're that age and you're talking to a kid that is, you know, at a young age, you can kind of maybe share with them your experience. Like I wouldn't say to my, you know, three year old, yeah, I got exposed to porn. So you don't want to do that, but, you know, you just want to be able to share with them, you know, just things that maybe they could be aware of at a young age or situations to avoid or things like that and maybe how that affected you at that age. So I wouldn't. It may not sound like disclosure, but when you're expressing a part of you so they could help identify with that. I think it helps the relationship as a parent and child, but it also helps them have a sense of, you know, if anything that I do, I don't have to carry any shame. I could go to mom and dad and they're there for me.

Well, the way I think about it is we want to be able to tell our Whole story. If there are chapters in our lives that we never tell our kids, we're in danger of perpetuating on them the same struggles and sins that we had. Because in isolation and in secrecy, sin thrives, it grows. And so sexual addiction or struggles with pornography, very secretive and it's very isolating. And so if we get healthy and find healing, maybe even as a couple, but we don't create a new openness with our kids, we're going to perpetuate isolation and secrecy. So what it means then is that our healing, our freedom, stops with us and it won't translate to our kids. And that's the opportunity I see, because I can relate a little bit, Trevor, that when my wife and I really faced our journey, as I walked through my journey to freedom from sexual addiction, our oldest daughter at the time was only six years old. So there's no way a six year old can comprehend everything that happened in the home. But I had had opportunity since, you know, last summer. There was a time my daughter and I, now at that time she was 12, we went out for coffee and I, in an age appropriate way, shared with her a lot of the story that my wife and I had gone through. Just the struggles that I'd had and how hurtful that was. And you know, some of it she was a little wide eyed and she asked great questions that a 12 year old would ask, like, well, why would you want to see those pictures? Or why would you do that to him? And it's like, man, those are great questions, honey. And I answered them in a way that I thought a 12 year old could understand. But I just watch now as she's in junior high, the way that we've helped her create a framework of what healthy sexuality is. And I don't mean in any way to say we're perfect or we have it all figured out, but I just watch in her that this worldview she has about the body and sex and how boys and girls should relate, that's so much better than what I had as a kid, you know, And I grew up in a great Christian home, pastor's family, wonderful parents, but we never talked about any of this. So all of my views of sexuality and pornography came from school and friends and what I learned on my own. And so when I think of disclosure, I just try to encourage parents to say, this is an opportunity for God to use your story to perpetuate health and freedom in your family. And so even if it happened a long time ago or you feel like our kids were Too young to understand. Look for those opportunities to make your story your family story. And that's what I love, Jackie, as I hear your testimony, when you've shared it at our events, just how God is using that in your daughter's lives and then creating health in your family.

Yes.

So we're establishing here that the disclosure with our kids is a healthy part of the process. That something we need to think about doing. Let's talk a little bit about timing. So, Jackie, if someone is thinking about when's the right time to do disclosure with our kids, is it at the very front end of the process? Like, if they're just getting started with groups and just beginning, should they just kind of all at once tell everybody, or is it better to wait until there's some healing in place? What kind of guidelines do you give about the timing in a person's healing journey? When's the right time to begin disclosing to your kids?

The right time to. The right time to disclose to your family and to the kids is when you're at a good place of sobriety and you have things in place. You know, like I said before in our story, me and early had early recovery, and then we had pure desire recovery. And when Ernie came back from every man's battle conference, it was disclosure right away. So he really didn't have anything in place at that time. So we just basically were at this wait and see what happens kind of a thing. But right now, what we've learned is let's get sobriety in place. Let's get some tools in place. Your kids and your family are seeing a healthy view of you. They're seeing how you're growing. They're seeing the transformation that's taking place, and so they know that there's something different. So when you come to them at that time, you give them a better sense of security to know that things are changing and they don't have to be fearful of things going back or, you know, going back to that different. That same lifestyle that there was before?

Yeah, I mean, we see that with disclosure throughout. The Pure desire material is making sure that you're able to effectively communicate the issues and the triggers and the trauma and all of that that's behind your addiction. So you're able to actually say, this is my experience. It wasn't just that mommy or daddy had these really difficult struggles. It was, here's what's happened in my life that has pushed me to look for ways to medicate that pain and, you know, go after things that are unhealthy and not good for the security of my family. And so it sounds like that's what you're saying, is that you. You understand enough about your story that you're able to give a full picture to your kids or the beginning of a fuller picture of what your addiction really is about.

Absolutely. And I like what Nick said before is you're. You're getting rid of that secrecy. You know, we're not going to have a foundation of secrecy in our. In our home anymore, in our family anymore. And, you know, we become this. This open book. So, you know, you want to have, you know, you want your kids to have that opportunity to say, I could come to mom or dad at any time, and they're going to share with me questions that I may have or things I didn't understand. And I want, you know, more understanding on it. And they're not going to be ashamed to tell me because of the foundation of truth that we, you know, that we live our lives with now.

Yeah, that's good. Okay, so let's get even more practical. We've talked about that it is important to disclose to your kids. We've talked about the timing. Now let's talk about what actually should be said. So when you're disclosing to your kids what's important information to tell them and what's important information that we don't need to tell them.

I think for disclosure, I think we have a tendency to be very detailed, and we think that we got to share so much in every detail. And I believe children, they don't want to hear that. They don't want to hear the gory details, nor we should tell them, because anything we tell them, they can't undo that in their minds. Just probably, like you said, the age appropriate, whatever their age is, if they're even toddlers, you know, they probably experience some. If the husband was acting out in pornography and there has been a. Where he seems shut down and not communicating to the family, you know, that's something that the kid would sense. And so if he's in a level of sobriety now, he could just share with his young child, daddy loves you, you know, and daddy's gonna be here for you. And that may be giving them, for that, for that young child, just enough security that he needs to know that things are better. And then, like I said, he's actually seeing the fruit of his dad being engaged with him in relations. Right. For us, you know, our daughter was in elementary and middle school, and so we didn't give a lot of details, but they did understand the behaviors. They saw behaviors. They saw me get angry, they saw me hurt, and they saw my husband passive and distance. And so, you know, he just explained that, you know, he did things to hurt us and to hurt me and what he is doing, you know, to. For his own healing so that won't happen again. And so, like I said at that time, it gave them that sense of security and that they were loved and they were worth it. And I believe young adults or teenagers, you don't have to be so detailed, but I mean, they do know what's going on, going on in this world. So I would just maybe share a little bit and allow them to ask questions. You know, like Nick said, his daughter asked good questions and just answer the questions that they had that they have.

Yeah. At every age group, the depth of sharing that you can have increases. And if someone's looking for a little direction, I know in the seven pillars of freedom, in the seventh pillar, there's some guidance on that to think about what kind of questions or what level of information to share at each age group group. And I'm guessing there's also some of that in betrayal and beyond. Jackie.

Yes, there is.

Yeah. And so look for those resources. You know, the other thing I think about when it comes to disclosing with our kids is not just focusing on our behavior, but really look at anywhere that our behavior would have had a detrimental effect on our kids. And so if we realize we ever lied to our kids and maybe we felt like, oh, it didn't hurt them, you know, I said that I was, you know, on a trip doing one thing, and actually I was doing something different. Well, to own that saying, I told you this, but that's not really what I was doing. I was having struggles with this behavior, and I feel like I lied to you. And other places I look for is where has my behavior caused an emotional reaction to my kids. And so something I see that happened in our home is just where I was an angry person at times, and I was angry because of stuff I wasn't dealing with while at work and because of the guilt and shame I had over pornography and not knowing how to deal with that, I know that anger could come out on my kids. And so I think in disclosure, owning that, say, you know, there are times I've reacted to you, I've lashed out or I've gotten angry. And you didn't deserve that because it wasn't really about you. And even if in that situation, your Kids were wrong. You can say, like, you know, what you did was wrong, but the way I reacted was actually about my own pain or my own guilt and shame. And so looking for those ways, not just to share the details of your behavior, but really to look. To talk through the emotional impact or the ways that you're behaving behavior, created relationship issues with your kids. And that, I think, is a real gift to our children because then they hear from us, oh, it wasn't my fault. I'm not the problem. As you said, Jackie, freeing your girls from that sense that we had to be perfect enough for mom and dad to stay together. And I think every kid, on some level, battles with that. If I was only a better kid, then my mom and dad would be better parents. And it's such twisted thinking that as adults, we're like, oh, no. Who would ever think that? But when we're kids, we all kind of feel that way for some reason. So in disclosure, just looking for, how can I help my kids have some grace and realize it's not about you, that there are things happening in mom or dad's life and that when they know about it, then I think they're able to be free just to be kids and not put that pressure on themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think another thing that would be helpful for the kids if the both spouses could be there when disclosure happens, I think that makes a big difference, and it shows the kids that we are on the same team. We are in this together, and we're so. We're supporting them, and we're supporting one another. And I think for us, you know, we've been in recovery for a long time and that. And our, you know, our girls are young adults now, but I find myself having my own disclosure with them because they're young women and, you know, I'm their mom. And so as they go through life, I'm sharing with them things that I've experienced at their age. And they're like, what? Really, you know, but it gives for one, it betters our relationship, you know, and once again, there's no secrets. And they could come to us with anything and know that we support them and that we love them and that there is such a security that they. They have in me and my husband's relationship because they know and understand it is not just about him. It's both of us getting our healing and that we're work. We're working on ourselves, and that's what it's going to take in a relationship. It's not okay. Once he's done or once he's healed, then the relationship is better. But it's taking no, there's things within me that I have to work on. And so when they get into relationships, they already know and understand that they have to work on their own healing in their lives and what they want to bring to the relationship, you know, when they get into a relationship. So it has been very, very beneficial to have both parents there in disclosure.

Yeah, that's a really great point, Jackie. And we touched on this a little bit earlier, but what are some other things you would encourage our listeners with in terms of what not to do? What are maybe some big no no's you've heard others do? You're like, oh, don't go there. Or just what would you say? Make sure you watch out to avoid these things when disclosing to your kids.

We have to, as parents, we have to ask ourselves, what is the motive of why we're disclosing? Are we disclosing because we want our kids to feel better? Are we disclosing because we want to feel better ourselves? If we see our kid maybe having their own struggles or acting out, that may not even be a good time to do disclosure. You want them to be at a place where they're able to listen and to hear and that they're engaged with you when you disclose because they may not be at a place where that may be appropriate for them to hear that, you know, I, as your parent, did something wrong when they're already dealing with some anger issues. That may not be a good time to disclose, you know, your secret sin. So we need to ask ourselves, maybe do they, you know, do our child even need to go to counseling or some therapy because they may have suffered some things, you know, within the family system. So we just have to know, is it the right time? Once again, what details are we sharing? And then I think another, no, no. That I hear a lot in family and relationships. Sometimes the addict thinks, okay, once I disclose this this one time, that's it. We're not going to talk about it anymore. We're going to forget about it and we're going to move on. But we have to be an open book. We have to have that opportunity that our children could come to us at any time and ask questions about our secret life.

Yeah, I think one of the things I'm cautious of encouraging people to avoid is feeling like I can do disclosure with my kids without really experiencing healing for myself, that we have a passion to help our Kids, be free. But if we're only minimally facing this in our own lives, we model more by what we do than what we teach. And everybody knows that.

So if.

If we want to just be open with our kids for the sake of openness, and we think openness will heal them, it's actually not openness that's healing. I mean, openness is good, but it's being open about both our struggle and the healing that we've experienced, what God has put in place. Instead, if we're just creating openness for the sake of openness, I think our kids could actually struggle more because they're like, well, mom and dad tell me this is dangerous and I should avoid it. But I see they're not changing their ways, so why should I? So we talk to parents a lot because they'll come to us and say, boy, what do I do for my teenage kids? How do I help them? And it's kind of counterintuitive, but one of our first questions is usually, well, how healthy are you? And how healthy is your marriage? Because the greatest thing you can do for your kids is to be healthy in your sexuality. Because then when you're talking with them, they actually can see it in your life, and they'll follow what they see you doing.

Well, and with that, too. It's like when you're on the airplane and they say that those masks will come down if oxygen is needed. They ask you to put your mask on first. First, and then put your kid's mask on. Or same thing with a life vest. You put your vest on first so that you're not pulling people down with you. Like, you need to focus on your own thing first, make sure that you're okay. Because once you're okay, you're actually able to help better and more effectively with those people. So, yeah, Nick, that's great. Okay, so, Jackie, disclosure. Once it happens, and we've talked about this a little bit throughout the episode so far, once disclosure happens, what are some ways to keep that conversation going? What are ways to create a culture of open dialogue where your kids can come to you talking about anything, whether it's sex or addiction or something going on at school? How do you create that culture of open, honest communication?

I think as parents, we should be intentional. I think a lot of times we tell that to our kids, and we expect them to come to us, but we need to create an environment for them to feel comfortable to do that. So we are intentional, and we're, you know, like, for us, you know, one of the things Ernie does is he has date nights with his girls, you know, so he's being intentional. He's creating that environment to where they feel comfortable to talk and to share. And we go out as a family, me and the girls, we go shopping and that always presents great opportunities for our daughters to ask questions. For us, it's just they're relaxed and they just have this freedom to share with us and then for us to share with them. So I think just creating an environment of being intentional to say, this is important to me, you're important to me, and so I'm reaching out to you.

Yeah.

I think one of the things I look for as a parent is just what are those opportunities that come up where I can be the one to take initiative and ask a hard question or to be honest. And so as an example, you know, I know in my growing up years, it was very often at sleepovers or on road trips with sports teams where stuff would come up, things would happen that I wasn't necessarily looking for or inviting, but it never got talked about at home. And so with our 13 year old looking for those moments where she's been away at a friend, friend's house or on a trip to say, you know, hey, when I was a kid, sometimes things came up on those trips that I wasn't comfortable with and I never knew how to talk about it. Is, is there anything like that that's happened or anything you want to just ask questions about or. And just to try to create that environment, say, hey, maybe something happened and it's okay that we talk about it and not have them feel like, I've got to keep this secret. So just being proactive to look for opportunities, where can I engage my kids in that conversation? And even if, if they say, yeah, no, nothing happened that even then to communicate grace of, oh, that's. I'm so glad. But want you to know if anything ever does happen, you can talk to me. I'd love to hear, love to help you process what's going on. Because then they continue to hear that message. Mom and dad are safe. Mom and dad are safe. And I can bring up anything with them and we'll work on it together.

Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the things we tell our girls too, because now that they're adults, they had some struggles and we always tell them and let them know your behavior is not your identity, you know, because they focus so much on the behavior and that's when the shame comes and they think they're bad and it's like, that's not who you are, you know? And so it's okay for them to talk about the behaviors and things that they have done, you know, in that safe environment and to know it's okay and to work, you know, in growing their identity in Christ. So that. That has been such a blessing for us in our family.

And I think, because I'm definitely in a different season than both of you, you know, with having just this. This baby boy. But I. Something I've been thinking about is planning to be an approachable dad in the sense of I am not setting myself up to be the superhero. So when I do something wrong, saying, look, buddy, I did something wrong, and I apologize. Will you forgive me? And so I'm trying to do it so that he sees that I'm not perfect and not creating this culture where, you know, you have to be. You have to perform well in order to be loved, but then also to try to make it where, you know, me and my wife were approachable for our kid. When he. When he knows he did something wrong, he's not afraid to come talk to us, which, you know, sin will get in there and we'll mess that up just like it messes everything up, but trying actively. So that's. That's just something I'm planning to put in place now and just. Just an idea, a thought to offer to that as well.

I think that is. I think that is so good. And one of the things that our girls saw is, like you said, it's that vulnerability. They saw, you know, their dad being vulnerable. You know, they saw that emotional side of him. They saw, you know, him, like you said, not being the superhero. I'm strong all the time. But they saw a weakness in him, and it was okay. It was okay. And, you know, like you said, he always came back and said, you know, one of the things that I like about him is that if there was any kind of failure on his part, he always says, I'm a better man than that. And he goes forward. So they know if you fall, you get back up, you work on it. And they're seeing the fruits and the transformation in his life. So they know this recovery works. They know, you know, putting these tools work. They know this Christian walk works. So that's been a blessing for us.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think sometimes as parents, we get into our heads that what our kids need from us is to be strong, and they need to see our strengths. And yet, I think our kids learn more from the way we respond to our weaknesses. Than just our strengths. I mean, yeah, they love to have a mom and dad that are confident or help them or, you know, go to bat for them with a teacher, something like that. But it's the way we respond to our failures that I think they learn more from than anything and is actually what creates strength. So to any parents listening, just to remind you, you don't have to fake like you're something you're not. Your kids can actually learn really powerful lessons from your honesty and humility about what you're not great at and where you're messing up. So even as parents, we got to get out of performance mode and say, what my kids need. They don't need a perfect mom or a perfect dad. They need an honest one, and that's willing to work on their issues. So, Jackie, as we're getting towards the end of this episode now, want to have you process just a little bit. Maybe someone's listening to this and the idea of disclosing to their kids is just like it's never happened. And they're reeling a little bit, trying to think about, how would I ever have some of this conversation with kids? What's some final encouragement you would want to give to a listener about the value of this and why they should go for it and have a disclosure in their home in a healthy way?

Disclosure is so healing. You know, like we've said before, it just once, truth is laid out there. It is the foundation of going forward. It's a solid foundation. Truth is a solid foundation. And when the lies are exposed and when they're laid out on the table, it gives each person in the family, the kids and the parents, to say, okay, now we understand why things were the way they were, but now we could go forward. And we're seeing the. The transformation, you know, in our lives. And then the parents, if they're having a struggle with that, of sharing with their kids, I would encourage them to write their kids a letter, you know, and to read. Read the letter to their kids. And then that way, it takes away some of the fears and the emotions that they're feeling and the fear of the response of the children. But I just believe the children would appreciate that so much when there's that honesty from their parents.

That's so good. Awesome. Well, Jackie, thanks for really, I mean, offering your insight and your experience. I mean, again, you and Ernie have such a cool story, and God's done so much. And so thanks for just being willing to share your story story and your experience as you told your kids about this stuff.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah. And we believe that this conversation is really going to be beneficial for other people to hear as they understand that disclosure is important. So thanks for helping us out. We really hope that this is beneficial for all the listeners. So thanks, Jackie.

Thank you.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe and check out our website, PureDesire.org also, you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's your desire PDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.