025 - Suspecting Spouse

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Does this microphone make me look fat?

And today we are joined by a first time guest, Debbie Flanagan. Debbie is one of our pastoral sex addiction professionals on our clinical team. Debbie, welcome to the PD podcast.

It's good to be here.

Welcome, Debbie.

Thank you.

We're happy to have Debbie on the podcast today to talk about when a spouse is suspecting that their husband or wife has a sex or porn addiction or is just struggling potentially with those things. This is a pretty difficult scenario and is one where it's really hard to know what to do. So we're looking forward to, Debbie, you helping us kind of talk through it and really help our listeners if they find themselves in this situation. So you ready to get going?

I'm ready.

Alrighty. So before we jump into the actual questions, Debbie, we just want to give you an opportunity to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, your experience with Pure Desire and just kind of, you know, your story.

Sure. And my healing really started back in 1994 when both Ted and Diane Roberts were at East Hill Church. And I showed up one day going, what is wrong with me? What's going, what's happening to me? And Diane had started a group for women, for women only. And I thought, I think that's what's wrong with me. And I think it was just the Holy Spirit speaking. So that's how my healing started, was getting involved with her going through the female sex addiction classes. But I learned a lot about trauma and all the things that I had been suffering from. And then about four years ago came here to Pure Desire to counsel with Harry and got more involved with helping the wives. And I thought, wow, I really like doing this. It was so rewarding helping the ladies through this trauma. And then that's when I just decided I want more training. And I went to the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals and got the certification along with my pastoral license. And it's been history since then.

That's awesome. So four years you've been counseling on staff?

Yes.

Okay. And then your background, you know, sex addiction was a part of your guys story, is that correct?

Harry's story? That's correct, yeah. Individually, you know, we. Because we met after I had been through some healing And Harry had just started going through the Four Men Only, and he had been at the church for, you know, think about a year or two. And so we met 20, 21 years ago. We were married 21 years now.

Wow. Yeah. Well, we've had Harry on the podcast. We like Harry. He's one of our favorite people. So we're glad to get the other side. And if any questions come up about Harry in the podcast, maybe we'll. Maybe we'll ask for some insight.

Yeah, I use him as an example a lot in counseling.

Perfect. Perfect.

Well, first off, Trevor, I can't believe my intro didn't get any reaction from you. I was looking for something on that one.

I'm turning into professional podcaster, so I think that it's just. I'm getting used to the insanity.

Whatever he says, I'm not gonna react to it. Yes, that's probably wise. I think my wife does the same thing. All right, well, Debbie, we are discussing today something that can be very challenging for people and very often what pure desire does. We're here kind of on the. After the. What do I do after I realize I'm struggling with addiction? What do I do after I found out my spouse has an addiction? And this podcast is really different because it's all about the before the person who's in a relationship and they're picking up on some signs or different things they're observing that just make them wonder, is my spouse battling with an addiction, or are they really struggling with pornography or other sexual issues? And so just take a moment, if you would, and describe what is that like for a spouse that's kind of dealing with those suspicions if you suspect.

Sometimes your suspicion comes in as an intuition. There's you. You. You feel disconnected at some point. You know, you're. And. And the thoughts, why do I feel disconnected? But that kind of disconnection is a. It's almost like a gut. Gut level. You don't even know. You just sense it. Wives, I think husbands and wives, we are physiologically a unit. We key off each other emotionally. I mean, that's the way God. God intended us to be.

The.

The two. Two become one. So, in essence, you really do. And so when one is anxious, the other one gets anxious. It's just sort of our heartbeats start beating together and we really do become one. So when one spouse is suspecting that something's wrong because there's a disconnection, a fear is going to arise, and we have to really watch that fear level to say in ourselves, fear Causes me to do all kinds of things. And so it's really the, you know, generally it's like, okay, I'm afraid. I'm afraid something's going to happen. And so fear rises. And then the way to suspect, the way to deal with that is to start rising up to protect that. That fear.

Yeah, I think that's a good point, Debbie, that that fear enters in, and we want to be careful with fear. Right. Because sometimes fear makes us do illogical things or look to blame. And so, you know, in a relationship, if one spouse is finding that the other is isolating a lot, or they feel like they're staying up late by themselves and they're on their computer or their phone or watching a lot of tv, you know, those things might have some legitimate reasons for concern. But on the other hand, we also want to make sure we're not just assuming that, oh, there's a disconnect in our relationship. It must be my spouse's struggle with pornography, because that can be a convenient way to maybe blame a relation issue on something that may or may not exist. So I think it's really great that you just bring out that when we have that fear response, we want to make sure we don't let it take us to irrational places or just look to blame the problem on something that may or may not be there.

That's very true. I mean, fear makes us do all kinds of things, even if it's, you know, and that's why looking at, okay, what is my real fear? What is going on? And a lot of times it's that fear of rejection or abandonment. Oh, he's watching some. Something, and it's this, you know, it's almost unexplainable. We don't always really know because a lot of times we have behaviors that. That. That protect us from that kind of fear. So that we. That's been in operation, we might. We may have already been involved with or have behaviors of anger, depression, or some other behavior that has really helped us with the fear. So now when there's a. You suspect something, that fear is going to rise even higher.

Yeah, well, and I think that that fear really, it raises the level of paranoia. And even if it is just a fear towards one certain direction of, you know, is he struggling or is she struggling with porn or with sex? But then I think that that paranoia crosses over into other areas. Like, you know, is he doing other things? Is he spending more money than he should be? Is he staying out too late? Different things like that. And I think that, that, that kind of just leads us into this next question of that whole idea. If, If a spouse is suspecting of their husband or wife with some sort of struggle in the sexual realm, should they go looking for it? Should they go digging? What should they do?

Well, we have to really look at fear. With fear usually comes control. When we're feeling fearful, we're not feeling safe. And so then our response to that is to control, which is that what you had talked about with going to, you know, what. What else are. Are they doing? So now, you know, fear is rising. Digging is not, you know, going to look for stuff that isn't there only fuels your anxiety already. And, and, you know, we. Digging is for the detectives to do. We don't want to be the detective. Most, Most wives say, I don't want to be that accountability partner. I don't want to. I don't want to do that. But our fear kind of compels us to that control. You know, I've got to prove that my intuition is right.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, Nick, you and I, we go to PDU events around the country, and I feel like this comes up a lot where, you know, there are people who ask, what is the role that I'm supposed to play if I think my spouse is struggling? Should I be the policeman in the house? And I think that, you know, through our conversations and through really answering that question, we find out that nobody wins if one of the spouses is a police officer in the house. I mean, nobody wins because there's always that suspicion and paranoia on the spouse that's suspecting. But then there's that. That sense of being controlled and feeling like I have to now answer to my spouse. And every single thing, every. Every single second of every day has to be accounted for. And I don't think that that's a healthy culture inside of the house.

Yeah. And I think there are definitely steps a spouse could be taking just to create health in their environment. And in some ways, they can gauge the reaction their spouse has to those things that you might go to your spouse and say, you know, we. We want to be responsible with our use of our television. And so let's set some block or some guards on certain ratings or with our computers and Internet use. Let's get a filter. Let's have some tracking software, particularly if you have kids in the home. And so a suspecting spouse might be able to take some steps like that just towards health of their environment and their devices. Recognize that the world is Growing increasingly dim. And there's, there's just really inappropriate material that is so accessible. And so in creating some of those safeguards that may actually bring some of the issues to the forefront. So if you find, boy, my spouse is really, really resistant to any sort of filtering devices, even though we have kids in the home. Okay, now that you're starting to maybe pick up on some signs that there's something amiss, because those are things we should want for ourselves and for our children. Because having unfettered access to everything that's out there, that's dangerous. And so we can take those steps proactively and not just wait until we know there is a problem. And so in creating that healthy environment, that might be part of what can help expose the issues that are already there.

Yes. Ick. I think putting those kinds of protections is a good thing in the home. And however gauging your spouse's response to that might not be an indicator that there is a problem, but it could, but it also could raise your level of fear. Like maybe something is wrong. And so I like to approach, if you suspect your spouse is of course not to go digging but to first calm that fear down and say, what is it I'm afraid of? What is it that I'm experiencing? Am I experiencing disconnection from him? What brought on this disconnection? Why is it that I'm thinking he might be having a problem with porn, pornography versus oh, maybe he's got a problem with this. Now, in working with a lot of sex addicts, there's usually more than just sex addiction. There's usually, like we said, 82% of people struggle with more than one process addiction. So if he's, Is he also angry? Is he also maybe drinking too, too much? So there, it's not that there's a sign that there's sex addiction there. It's just that there's something else going on. So why am I disconnected? Why am I feeling like I've tried to reach out to him and he hasn't really connected? So now you can go in and say, gosh, I'm feeling really disconnected. So staying calm is the first line of defense. Don't jump, jump to conclusions. But really kind of say, what is it that I'm really feeling? I'm feeling kind of scared that he is doing this.

Well, it sounds like what you're saying is to check yourself first to make sure that they're. Make sure, check your own heart. Find some self awareness before you move forward or before you really let that Suspicion take, you know, take flight. In that sense, you're. You're letting yourself evaluate, okay, where am I at? What have I been struggling with? What are some points of tension? You know, what has maybe triggered me in the last week that's like, brought this on. So really just self awareness is what I'm hearing from you?

Yes, that's correct. Because if we allow that fear to take over and it. And then we start fueling that anxiety with control, blame, anger, or just our fear rises up, it kind of overtakes that, you know, the calmness that. That. That we want to have. And so I'm a big proponent about being very direct, especially if you're, you know, looking at it from a sex addiction point of view, being direct with somebody and saying what it is a lot more, I think, is a lot more beneficial than it is to sort of say, honey, is everything okay? He's going to say, sure, everything's okay. But when I approach it, like, I've been feeling really disconnected lately. Are you struggling with pornography? Because this is what I've been experiencing. You know, maybe the laptop was left open, or maybe, you know, you have to sort of, you know, why do I feel this way? I'm feeling disconnected. And I tried to reach out to you this way, and you didn't respond. And I'm. So I want to find out, are you struggling with pornography or are you having an affair? Being very direct, of course, is very vulnerable. You're not accusing him, but you're asking the direct question.

Yeah. So, Debbie, you're starting to kind of lead into, well, how do I know if there's a real problem and that. That direction to be just very straightforward about it and ask out of real humility and grace, like, hey, what's happening in this area? So as couples start to have this kind of conversation, how would they know if their spouse actually has a problem with pornography? You know, maybe they ask about it and the spouse says, oh, it's just once in a while. It's no big deal. Don't worry about it. And I think that's the common response. You know, I know it was in my life, even as I was confessing things to my wife, was to try to make her feel good and happy. Like, hey, I'm working on it. It's not going to happen again. I've taken these steps. And so as couples are starting to have the conversation, they might get that kind of minimizing of the behavior. So how could a spouse know if there really is a problem that needs to be addressed here.

Well, of course, you know, as you were saying, problem, the word problem is a subjective term for the guy because he's going to say, no, it's not a problem. But, you know, pornography in any do is harmful to, to the brain. And chances are there it is a problem. And because if they've said, well, I've watched it a couple times, it's not. It's not a big, big deal. I guess the next step would say, well, are you willing to go for some, some counseling in this area? Because it causes a lot of fear in me. And I've heard, I've read reports or whatever you, you, whatever you can bring to the table of as far as what, what, you know, saying it is a problem. And I feel really betrayed by that. And, you know, so approaching it from your feeling point of view, you know, that, you know, knowing that you've even watched it a couple times is very, you know, makes me really fearful and I really want to work on this. Let's go for some counseling together.

Yeah, I think that's so good, because one of the things we do see happening in our culture is kind of a broader acceptance, even in the church, to say, oh, this is just a guy problem. Everyone does it, so long as it's not, you know, too often we kind of dismiss it. But I really believe what you said is so true that in any dose, it's a problem. And so for that spouse to be able to communicate this is hurtful to me. It's harmful to our relationship. And if you love me and are committed to our relationship, I believe you should be committed to not doing this at all. And the other reality that we find and, you know, I know from my own story, so this is speaking from personal experience. If I'm willing to say, well, yeah, it's happening once in a while, and I'm actively minimizing it, there's more going on. And I would just, you know, guess that in 90% of the situations when someone says, oh, it's only once in a while, you're only getting part of the story. And so that is a red flag for a spouse to take real seriously if they're willing to acknowledge that this is in their life, but they're trying to make me feel better, that it's not that bad, or it's only once in a while, you want to keep, in a healthy, you know, gracious way, lean into that and say, can you be real honest with me and ask for some understanding of what's going on? And just as you said, ask for them to be willing to go find some help.

That's absolutely true. Shame plays a huge part in a lot of people's response when they're asked this question. You know, shame makes us want to hide, and we will. And being gracious towards that. I mean, when we look at how, you know, God deals with us in. In our shame is sort of like he's. He's gracious enough to be very direct, you know, with us, but yet. And when we try to run away from him or hide, hide from him, he has his ways of calling, calling us out. And so realizing, though, that shame plays a huge part in the denial process, we see that even with. With women who, you know, who don't think that they've had. Had any trauma, well, you know, they feel like their husband's betrayal or their husband's porn use isn't a big, big deal, but yet they have a lot of other issues. Issues. But when we start talking to them and start, you know, helping them with. With their husband, if their husband comes in for. For counseling, we're helping her. We find that there's a lot of trauma there, there too. So she goes through some of the same processes as well. It's not that big a deal, but then we find out it is.

Well, I think it's important to note that shame can go both directions. That certainly for the person being confronted or being challenged by some behavior in their life, shame is a protective mechanism. But I think for the other spouse, shame can be at work also because of that fear that if they are struggling with pornography or if they have a sex addiction or they're going to clubs, that might mean I'm not good enough or I'm not beautiful enough or I'm not enough for them. And that shame of. Or that fear of what, if I really am made to feel that way, could keep them from asking. So I think it's helpful for spouses to hear that when it comes to pornography or a sex addiction, it's not about you. You could never be enough for your spouse to not struggle, because their struggle isn't about your beauty. It's about their way of medicating pain or something they've fallen into in their life. And so don't let your fear or your shame of maybe I'm not enough for them keep you from confronting this issue. Because on the other side, your relationship can get so much stronger and so much better. There's such beauty that can come of it, but you really will have to Find and lean into the truth of what's going on to get to a better place.

Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's important because it goes back to that initial fear when they suspect it. That's usually one of the fears that comes up is, you know, what if this is. You know, the fear is, I'm facing the death of this marriage. You know, if he's acted out or if he's using porn, I'm out of here. So the fear of really being direct and asking creates a vulnerability in me to have to rise up and say, I'm going to ask him a direct question, and if he says yes, what am I going to do? And so we're faced with a lot of fear in the asking, but without being direct, there's a lot of room for, yeah, everything's fine.

Right.

And everything isn't fine. Then they come in, then they find out later something is wrong, and then they're going, you lied to me. I didn't lie. You told me. You asked me if everything's fine, and everything was fine in my mind.

Well, another thing just to add to this question is that when I was in the midst of my addiction, I was very secretive and very deceptive. And so to know that that's the nature of what's going on with an addiction, and, you know, certain things, like really protective over their phone or their laptop device, something practical like that, like, if you ask them about it or you see them. You know, there were times where if someone picked up my phone, I would go grab it right away and keep it to myself, just in case I didn't cover my tracks well enough, or if they wanted to look, you know, and find something that they shouldn't. And so just be aware of that response when. When you are looking or when you're seeing some of these signs, I think that there are some practical things that you can see as well, like how deceptive or secretive or isolation, like how much isolation is taking place with that spouse.

Yeah, I always want to be a little bit careful because of boundary issues. And I guess because some men or women have an extra layer of a boundary. We, you know, that my purse, my possessions or whatever are mine. And it's not that they're acting out. It's just that they don't want people using their phone or, you know, there might be other reasons why they are not wanting you to have. Like, in my day, it was like the wallet. You know, the wallet was the man's sacred thing. And I still don't Go into my husband's wallet. It's just something I as. That's my boundary. I won't. To me, that would be. I would be violating his personal space if I went into his wallet. I even knock on his office door when it's closed. It's just something I do. And so he's always very open. Just come. Come in. And I'm like, I don't know. So we have to really be respectful of, you know, not to be overly suspicious just because they don't want you.

On the phone or whatever.

Right.

But. And I think what I'm. What I'm trying to speak to is just that there may be signs that you see that you pick up on just to be aware of. Not necessarily that that should mean you should go snooping or digging, but definitely.

You know, to keep or fear, you know, fearful of.

Yeah, I think that's a great point, Debbie, that if we fear they are violating some of our marriage boundaries, don't turn around and violate a lot of their personal boundaries. You're going to complicate the issue that if you bring up something to confront them and they're like, why do you know this? And they're like, what? You were in my. You know, I don't want you doing that. And, you know, so now you've got fault on both sides. And so as much as you can remain. I think that's the great point. Remain respectful of their boundaries.

Correct.

Remain respectful of, you know, what they've asked of you. And if you have to violate those boundaries to figure out what they're struggling with, that's probably not the best way to approach it. To go back to what you said, Be direct, be calm, be gracious, and ask and have that conversation.

Absolutely, yes.

Okay. So we've talked about, really, the front end of this. If there's a suspicion, and then you know, how to really figure out if that suspicion is something that's actually a reality in the home. But let's talk about communication. Communication inside of a marriage is very important, and it's not always very easy, especially when talking about a suspicion of addiction. So just on the one side, what should spouses avoid when bringing up the suspicion of struggle to their spouse?

Well, I think the first thing that we had talked about was, you know, accusing and blame and blaming, really. And the whole boundaries thing, too, is being respectful, you know, saying, okay, wait a minute. How much is my fear plan in here? It's really hard to do when your fear is rising and you're. You want to Protect yourself, because now you have all the. Your. Your fears coming to surface. So the fear that your husband is. Or your wife is having an affair or whatever, or whatever you have to be really, I have to avoid accusing and blaming and find a way to get some help. And I always go back to Queen Esther. You know, what did she face? And we talk about this in the sense of, how do I bring that up? How do I bring up this? The suspicion? Well, taking a lesson from her, Queen Esther was facing death if she just showed up to her husband in her current fear. So, you know, her uncle told her, we're all going to die if you don't do something, including her. So she's got this fear. So she waits on it for three days. Prayer and fasting is what she asked her people to do. She had her maids pray and fast. Then after that, she put on her royal robe, went before the king while he was sitting, listening to people request the people's requests for him. So if we put that in today's view, okay, the first thing she does is she. She has some time frame. Frame in there. She takes some time to pray and fast. Now, when I brought this up to my gals, we thought, well, could you wait for three, three days? Oh, no, we cannot wait three days.

Sure.

So I said, well, how long could you wait? If you said, oh, my gosh, I think my husband's been using porn. They all agree, of course. These ladies are all in counseling for, you know, their husbands have already gone through all the process. So they said, well, 24 hours is the most. And I said, okay, that's great. Because usually on a recovery action plan, we're asking that their husbands report any relapse within 24 hours. So 24 hours to do what? What do I do in the waiting? Do I sit there and rehearse what I'm going to ask him and, you know, rehearse my thing? No, prayer is a good thing. I get my support system together. How do I approach this? How do I ask? How do I ask that question and bring up those concerns to my spouse? Waiting for a time when he's ready to listen, he's in that place. So she put on her. Esther put on her royal robe, which me represent her position and authority as his wife. She was his wife and queen. But most importantly, that's just her status. She's important to him. She's his wife, so she's approaching him in that regard. I have authority to ask you this question because I'm your wife and I'M concerned, and I have a request. And so it's being respectful of his position as well, you know, that I don't go blaming and accusing. But I come forth with this, that direct question like, you know, I've been feeling disconnected from. From you. Are you using porn pornography? I. I'm feeling. I'm feeling because I've. I've maybe overheard some. Something or the computer. You've been closing the laptop when I walk in the room. And I'm just, you know, what is going on. And so being able to open the door with being direct.

Well, that's a great point about Esther picking the right opportunity. Because sometimes having the right conversation at the wrong time can lead to a bad outcome. So if he or she are on their way out the door, going to work, that's not the time to bring it up. Or don't text them while they're at work. Don't barrage them with it right when they get home, because they never text.

Text is probably never the right way to do it.

It's not going to be a healthy form of communication. But just thinking about, when will this be? When will my spouse have the time and the mental space to answer this question honestly and have a real conversation with me? That might be after the kids are in bed. That might be when you have some time to go out for a cup of coffee or that there's just time to really be in that frame of mind because then the conversation can be a lot more fruitful.

Absolutely. And it also, when you approach with what you're feeling. I've been feeling disconnected, and it causes me a little bit of fear here. It puts his. Him in the mind frame, too, to kind of go, I don't want that from my. I want my wife to feel loved and connected. So it creates that, you know, wow. I guess my. If I'm. If I am using porn, it is causing some props, some. Some problems here. So it really elicits some empathy from him to sort of get into your space as well.

So, Debbie, if the couple's had this conversation and it's confirmed that there are some issues with pornography or sexual addiction, other forms of behavior, what are the first steps that the spouse should take?

If it's pornography use, I would take that, you know, serious enough to, you know, suggest. Can I would like for us to go for some counseling and to sort of discuss the issue with, you know, somebody who has some experience in this. Is it okay? You know, I'm going to. I'd like to research online or Whatever. Go to Pure Desire and find some, some help. Because I really want to talk, talk this out. Because that really feels like a betrayal to me. So, you know, it's really traumatic for a wife or a husband to discover that their spouse has been unfaithful. It's a very deep, deep wound and it's a very personal wound and it should be treated with respect. That this is a trauma to, to the marriage with. If it's. With, you know, if, if he says, oh, no, I've been having an affair or something, that's really, really very serious. So there's obviously extra steps that need to go in there. They do need professional help. And you can't just recover from this on, on your own.

Right.

I know couples have tried. They thought, okay, it's in the past, and she relaxes into the marriage again. But trust has been broke, broken. And it really requires. So the steps to take would be, you know, call the Peer Desire offices and at least get a 15 minute consultation to talk about your specific needs and your specific issues and get direction for that.

Yeah.

And it may be for some couples that this is the very first time they're having this conversation. And as one spouse expresses, this is hurtful to me. I'd like you to stop. The other spouse might. This might be the first time they're trying to come to grips with that, to realize, wow, I wasn't aware of how painful this was. Maybe from their background or their family of origin. It was just kind of a common thing. And so it's a fair expectation for the one spouse to say, well, I'd like you to stop because it's hurtful. And if the other says, well, yeah, I'm gonna stop, then perhaps in their situation, that would be effective. But that can also be the opportunity in the conversation then to say, and if it doesn't stop, though, I think we're gonna need to seek help. Because then the spouse who is struggling sees there's kind of a consequence or an outcome here. If I can't stop or I won't stop, we're gonna need to get some help here because of what it's doing to our relationship.

And not. It's not that we ever would ask anybody to not pursue counseling. But we do also have groups available for men and women who find themselves in, you know, where there's addiction in the household or a struggle in the household is we have groups for women who have been betrayed, and we also have groups for women who are the addict and then vice versa for men which is also a part of our counseling process, is that we get them involved in those groups. And so, you know, if the addict or the one who's the spouse that that's struggling in the household is maybe open to that counseling, maybe that isn't the first step. Maybe it's going to try to find a support group, whether that's a pure desire group or something else going on at your church. But just to be active right away. Don't just let it sit after that conversation and say, okay, I'll work at it. And then, you know, the spouse then feels like they have to check in and another three weeks to see how things are going, like, make sure that if. If that's happening and you do get a good response or guess a response that realizes, okay, this is a problem, than to immediately try to take steps. Both spouses in that sense.

And I know we've talked a lot about, you know, staying calm and identifying your fears, which.

That sounds really easy.

I was just about ready to say that we've. We haven't addressed the issue of like, I cannot control my anger. I am so upset and angry. I am off the walls. And we get that a lot because your fear arises. So that should be an indication to you too, that, you know what? I really need help. If I cannot stay calm and address this in the way that we've outlined here, that's an indication I need some extra help or professional help too, to kind of go, oh, right, I cannot calm down. And I am. So now I'm so upset that I can't calm down. So. And that's usually the case. There's usually. It's usually is a huge trigger of all the fears that I've ever had in life are now all out on, on display. So that's an indication too, that, you know, finding even if your husband isn't willing to go, I've got to go for some help. And I can check, check in to see if there's a women's group or men's group. Men. We do have hope. Hope for men. But there's. I don't know if there's any groups going on for. For that. But my husband Harry does a lot of work with the men.

We have some women, we have some online groups going right now.

Yeah, and that's a great thing because they're different betrayed spouse are on a different journey than the addict. And it's a long journey depending on the depth of your trauma, because you're in a trauma with what's happening. In the marriage. But, but it's also a reaction to any past trauma that you haven't dealt with. So we've got a lot of trauma to walk through if you are in that position where I'm so angry and now I'm mean and I'm withdrawn and my wall's up and I won't come home.

Well, me and Nick got to sit down with Tyler Chinson, our clinical director, a few episodes ago and he said that it's really important that both spouses get healing because that's how it's going to really heal the family and the household. That if just one spouse is getting healthy and the other isn't, whether it's the addict or the betrayed, it's really going to be this uneven kind of off centered household where you want a shared language and you want both spouses to be working towards restoration in their relationship, but then also personal healing of anything that they've had and really any trauma or pain they've had in their life.

That's absolutely true. It's. We have seen miracles happen in marriages over and over again.

Well, Debbie, it's been great to have you with us and to get your insights on this challenging area. We want to wrap up the podcast, as we always do, by just asking you, what final tips or encouragement would you like to give to anyone who's listening and finds themselves in this situation?

Well, there is hope, there is healing, there is restoration of the marriage, and there is redemption. And it's a series of journeys for the addict, it's a series of journeys for the betrayed spouse. And working together, though, as a unit is probably the best way to go. But I know sometimes you find yourself in that place where you seem like all hope is lost for this, this marriage. You'll have your ups and downs on those journeys, highs and lows. But don't despair. There's hope and we have Jesus on our side.

And as you're saying that, I'm thinking too, you think of 2nd Corinthians 3 where Paul's talking about how I go through things in my life so that I better can show the grace and mercy and support of God to other people. And so I think that that's a really important piece when thinking about finding a group of people who have a shared experience and who have been through this or are in the middle of processing it together and how that community can help you grow and understand. Because obviously you know as soon as you find out that there's an addiction in the home, your first thought Isn't man, I'm gonna be able to help other people. Now, that's not your first thought, but you need that support. You need to have people who are further along in this journey in order to come and to help you figure out not just. Not just the best way for you, but the best way for your marriage to process this and the best way to glorify the Lord in the midst of all that craziness.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a long journey, but it's one well worth taking, especially when you have support. And it's not a fun journey, but it certainly is. There is healing in this.

Amen. And I think the final encouragement I would give when you find yourself in this situation, it's really tempting to believe we are the only people going through this. What's wrong with our marriage? What's wrong with me? How come everyone else has it together? Well, if research is reliable, and I believe it is, in this area, 60 to 70% of men are struggling with pornography. 25 to 30% of women have a struggle of their own. So you are far from the only couple. And when you start to lean into this, don't stay isolated, don't feel like you're alone, and have to keep on this image of being a perfect couple. Because very likely there are many people around you walking through similar things, and if you would begin to seek them out, you'd find incredible support. But it's breaking out of that feeling that we're somehow uniquely bad in our marriage. That can be the breath of fresh air that gives you the courage to take the steps you need to.

Yeah. That's great. Debbie, thanks so much for helping us navigate just this really tough situation. I mean, I think a lot of people find themselves here and your experience and wisdom in this area, we're just so thankful for you just coming and hanging out and talking to us about it.

It was my pleasure.

Awesome. Well, and for anyone out there that's in this situation, we really suggest that you call our international women's groups coordinator, Ashley Jam, or our international Men's groups coordinator, Rich Moore will have their numbers attached to the show notes. Just because you need to find a support group, you need to have people around you who have experienced the same thing and have the tools necessary to find healing. And if you feel like you counseling really is something that you and your spouse need and it would be beneficial to you, we just ask that you call our counseling office, and we'll have the number attached as well to the show notes. And I'll just give it to you now. It's 503-489-0237. And really just reach out if that's where you guys find yourselves. And just know that like Nick said, you're not alone. We are here to support you. Pure Desire exists to help you on this difficult journey. So please don't hesitate to reach out. So, Debbie, Nick, thanks so much for hanging out and talking about it today.

Glad to be here.

Glad to be here.

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