028 - FAQ # 2

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo. Yes, Nick is here. That was a really subtle intro compared to really the past.

You know, I kind of froze. I had about eight different things in my head and I just wasn't sure where to go.

And so yes is all that came out.

It's ironic because I've gotten good at not responding to what you're doing.

You have.

And then you do something subtle like this and I have to respond. So you're learning a lot about us, our listeners out there, learning a lot about our relationship. So today we have Brian Roberts with us. Thanks for being here, Brian.

It's good to be here again.

So today's episode is going to be FAQ number two. So that's Frequently Asked Questions where we're going to take time to answer specific questions that we get a lot. So we're excited to continue these episodes and we will continue to do these and attempt to answer as many questions as we can. So with that, let's just jump right into the first question. You guys ready to go? Yeah.

We should point out that there is an FAQ number one. We didn't just title this number two to be like trendy or something. They can go back and hear the first podcast.

Yes. As you can tell, we're cheeky this morning and we're ready to go. So. All right, well, let's just start with this question, guys. So what do we do if a group leader has a relapse?

That's a good question. You know, when I've led groups, we've had that question come up a lot. And what we've always decided is that before someone leads a group, there's a couple qualifications that they should have and that will help in the event that there is a relapse. So one of the things that we, we would like to see, and it doesn't always have to be the case, but certainly as a best case scenario, is that a group leader or. Yeah, a group leader has already been a part of a group. They've already led a group. And so by doing that, one of the things that should happen is they should already have a safety plan in place. Now, if you're a new church and you're starting groups and nobody's done it before, I would recommend listen to our episode on the recovery action plan. You can go to our website and download that tool and have your leaders fill it out just to start. Because what we want to have happen is when someone relapses, there should be a plan that just goes into place automatically so that they can be focusing on what they need to change and not worried about, oh man, I messed up. I don't want to talk about that. At group. The other thing that we would look at too is that that group leader, and this is a great reason to have a co leader, should not be leading that week. And it's not to demean them or say you're a horrible person, but it's simply to say we've just had a pretty major incident happen and we want to give that its due and say your focus should be on what, what went wrong this week and not I gotta lead this group. I gotta make sure, like I got my homework together and all this stuff. It's like, no, no, no, I need to take a step back, look at my week and try to figure out what went sideways that I missed that could have prevented that relapse. Where could I have gotten off that direction a lot sooner and review your recovery actually plan or your safety plan and say, is there something missing or is there something that's changed that I need to pay attention to? And that episode would be great to listen to as well.

Yeah, that's really helpful information, Brian. And I think something else we want to keep in mind is the nature of the relapse. Because in, in most cases what we're looking at is a leader is still a human being and they're still processing their own journey. And so to some extent we want to be understanding and recognizing that relapse might happen and that doesn't have to be a negative thing that just like everyone else in the group, the leader can learn from it, grow through it. And their willingness to be open and authentic and humble through that situation really communicates a lot to the group. But in that instance, we're talking more about a relapse that a leader has owned. They've faced it quickly, they've been honest with their group and the appropriate people in their life. They're taking steps for reparation. And more often than not, it's a one time kind of I slipped back into an old behavior that would be the most typical if a leader has a situation where it wasn't just a one time thing that they have relapsed back into an addictive lifestyle where maybe over several weeks they had several instances, they were hiding it, they were getting back into deception. That becomes evidence of a deeper issue that really needs to be addressed. And so in those cases, we encourage a leader to step out of leadership until they're able to re establish six months of sobriety. Because it's not just a one time learning occurrence. It's evidence that there's some deeper things that maybe that leader needs to process. And it's very, very difficult for a leader to face those things to the level they need to while still maintaining leadership of the group. So you want to address those situations. Obviously not in a shaming way or making someone feel like they've been disqualified because they certainly can establish sobriety and still be used by God to lead groups down the road. But we just want to take an instance like that and really make sure that person has more time and space to process at the level they need to.

Yeah, it just, it's important that the group is aware that how they respond is really important. So if leader does, then to be that open, that honest and that gracious group because that person's in the middle of their own healing, whether or not they've been through group before. We've seen guys and gals go through group where they go through multiple times and they get more and more, the onion gets peeled back even more and more. So to understand that, you know, everybody is human. That's a great insight, Nick. And just to continue to remind yourselves that it's important how you respond in group when someone does have a lapse or relapse.

I think this question too underlines the importance of accountability within leadership as well. So that, you know, if you are, if there's a couple groups at your church or even if just one group, you should never have a group where the leader or leaders do not have regular meetings with who's ever in charge of the small groups of the church. Because you know what we really want, like Nick was saying, we don't want to have a situation where somebody has a relapse and then they're like, oh man, I can't talk about this. And they start hiding it. And it happens again and again and again. And they get this pattern where they feel like they have to lead and they can't, you know, grow as well from the group experience and to have that interaction with the leadership of the church and accountability too, where the church leaders saying how, how is, how's the leadership sobriety and to be honest with it and deal with it as soon as we see that, like, you know, I've gone a place that I said I wasn't going to go and, and I need to take a step back and I need to submit to the leadership, to the church and find out like, is there something more you feel like I need to do to be, be leading effectively?

Yeah. And it really underscores part of our vision as a ministry that we intentionally, we are not having pure desire groups that happen to be at a church. We are coming alongside of a church and helping them lead and start their own groups. And they happen to be using pure desire materials. Because when a leader is running into something like this, we want to know they have spiritual covering and authority to go to because that's going to keep them in a safe place, like you said, Brian. And if someone is operating without that structure over them, it's a really, really challenging place to be. And so if you're leading a group and are in that situation where relapse occurs, one of your first thoughts needs to be how, how can I connect with my, my pastor who's over me or ministry leader? How can I be honest with them so they can give me good guidance on the best way to deal with this? And when there's that kind of leadership over us, it really helps us respond appropriately.

Yeah. Good stuff.

Yeah. So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about something that's a big part of what we do, and that's the Conquer series. We see many, many churches now are using the Conquer series as a really effective on ramp to starting pure desire groups and helping their church face this issue because it's DVD driven. It's easy to pop it in and hit play and let people learn and be equipped and you can invite anyone to come and see it. But it really is in its marketing. And as you read some of the material on the Conqueror series, it's addressed to men. And, and so we get a number of churches that ask, is it okay for women to watch and could couples watch it together? What do you guys think about women watching the Conquer series or couples going through it together?

Well, I think that yes, the answer is that women can go through it. I think that it has a lot of value because it talks about the nature of addiction. So whether it's a sex addiction or a love addiction or some dependency issue, it's like you're going to see stuff that's really going to be beneficial for you. I would maybe be careful if we decide to do men and women going through it at the same time, just to do, just due to the nature of the addiction, you know, make sure that you are trying to protect everybody involved. But I think that it's something that both genders could benefit from. It's not just for men. Women can get a lot out of it as well.

Yeah. You know, in some of the churches that have done the men's and women's groups, the one feedback that we've gotten is it's been really good. And some of them have also had discussion time, which is again, really tricky. But you know, I said, how did you do that? And they said, well, we just split up, men and women. And I think that's really important. It's not that we don't want husbands and wives to talk about what they learn, but given the, the broad reach that addiction and betrayal can, can touch, you want to make sure it's a safe place if you do have mixed gender. And so I think a discussion time is always great to have, but not in a mixed gender if you're going to do it in a group as well.

Yeah. And it's good to keep in mind that if women are going through the Conquer series, the workbook can provide some guidance in terms of summary points. But the question time will really need to be designed differently so women can process at their level or how they interact with their spouses. And so in those situations, usually there will be someone on staff or another woman that has watched the series and is able to help write some discussion questions because. Because that really is a key feature of the video series is that if you're just watching a movie and then going home, it's not going to create much application or long term change. It's that discussion time. And so if it's women discussing together, just thinking ahead about what questions we'll use. And then we do have married couples that will watch this together, often for their teenage kids, and how do we help them? But we would just encourage them to be aware. When you go through the series, sooner or later you're going to turn to one another and say, well, how are you doing in this area? And just to be ready to handle that conversation in a mature way and to be able to be honest and open with our spouse. And so that's just something to keep in mind that if it's in a mixed environment, those questions are going to come up and you want to have thought through that. Whereas if it's just men or just women, they're more able to process the whole series and then Maybe at a later point, bring that into the marriage conversation.

So the next question we have is, within our group material, we're told to wait six months before disclosing. And you see that on the beginning of the Conquer series, Don't disclose right away. We see that when we get into the different addiction material groups that we have. So why is that? Why? You know, I mean, a lot of conferences I go to, you'll hear someone talk very passionately about their experience and their road to freedom. And a lot of guys are like, yeah, I need to go. I need to disclose everything. I need to tell my wife everything that's going on. And we know that confession is part of this, so why do we wait so long?

That's a great question, Brian. And I think to start, one of the best things is to make sure we're clear on the definition of a full disclosure. Because when we're talking about a full disclosure, we're referring to someone giving a full and accurate report of their sexual history and behavior with no gaps and nothing left out. Now, that doesn't mean it has to be every detail, but it's very thoughtful and very thorough. What we don't mean is that you can't share anything for six months. We really want to encourage men and women that are working towards sobriety to have a healthy level of communication in their marriage, to start to clue their spouse in to the level of their struggle, and to help their spouse determine what level of information do they want to know. We find that in most couples, if relapses are occurring, the couples want to talk about it, because that's something when you're facing it together, having your spouse involved actually really helps you take the right steps and recover appropriately and take your recovery seriously. And it's really possible to be sharing at that level even prior to full disclosure. Now, the reason we do encourage someone. Wait for that six months of sobriety for full disclosure is because usually what happens is the equivalent to emotional vomiting on someone. That I feel guilty and shameful. And so I just get it all out. And, boy, I feel awesome because I got it off my chest. But my spouse feels terrible. They're a mess, and they have to do all the cleanup. And then what occurs is because when we're stuck in addictive behavior, we're all guilty of rationalizing and minimizing the behavior. Before we can deceive someone else or lie to anyone else, we have to deceive ourselves. We have to lie to ourselves. And so that means I might have been living in that pattern for 10, 20, or even 30 years or more, where I'm caught up in some self deception. So then if I'm trying to tell you accurately about my behaviors, I'm going to forget stuff, I'm going to omit things, I'm going to. There may be things I'm just not even ready to talk about and I don't realize it. And so then what occurs in those relationships is someone comes back and says, oh yeah, I forgot about, oh yeah, there's this, there's more. And it creates the sense for that spouse of this is a bottomless pit that I'm falling into. And there's always more and it's always worse. And the trauma that that can inflict on the spouse is very significant. In fact, research has found that a staggered disclosure can leave someone with the emotional profile of a rape victim. And that sounds really extreme. It's like, oh, come on. But when you really think through it, it's really unhinging someone's foundation of trust and of what the relationship is built on. So when we want to enter into disclosure really thoughtfully and like when I walk guys through this process, I say, you need to make sure that this is everything. And I need you to tell me first, is this everything? And that's the other encouragement I'd give is before you share your full disclosure with your spouse, make sure you've walked through it with another friend, someone of the same gender that understands this journey and that you've walked through the whole thing and they've asked you some hard questions. Because the worst thing you can do is say to your spouse, and here it is, this is everything. And then a few months later come back and say, oh yeah, so that's why the waiting for six months before doing full disclosure.

Well, and the thing is too is, you know, when I was first going through the Conquer series with my group, we ended up taking, I think it was maybe we started the second or third week and. And we decided to go around and to just do our full disclosure to the point that we understood at that point to just share to the group, here's all of my stuff. And it was almost really acted as like a trial run where I'm able to go through it. And what's really interesting is that when you hear someone else's full disclosure, it's like, oh, I had an experience just like that and I forgot to write it down or I forgot to include it in my disclosure. And so it almost acted as a trial run. So it's not that you can't disclose to anybody. That's what the group is for. You're able to share that stuff. But we're talking about disclosure to your spouse, where that's, as Nick is saying, it's really. You're protecting yourself, and you're also protecting your spouse.

That's so true because so many times. And Nick, you said this, too. You have to lie to yourself before you can lie to others. And for people, especially who've been involved in their addiction for 10 or 20 or 30 more years, there's a lot of stuff they just forgot. Like, if I've told myself this narrative, then that other one doesn't exist and I don't even think about it anymore. So having, like you said, Trevor, that trial run is super important. You know, one thing I've had a lot of group members ask me too, is they'll say, man, this seems just overwhelming, or, I'm not sure I'm going to do this right. I've heard horror stories, and I guess I would. I always encourage my group members to, you know, seek counseling. There's a lot of great counselors. We have a bunch on our staff who are very good at helping you walk through the disclosure process. Even if you're not counseling through the process and you're just in group, the disclosure piece is probably worth doing with a counselor because they've been there, done that. They know. Yeah, let's. Let's approach it this way. I think it's going to be more successful, and they can. They can help you through that process as well.

Yeah, right on, guys. Well, let's go to the next question. And you know, our ministry, really, what we talk about a lot is sex and porn addiction. But we often get this simple question, and the question is, is masturbation a sin? So let me just pose that to you guys. Is masturbation a sin?

You know, that's a great question, Trevor, but I think it may actually be asking the wrong question. Because when we do, we're kind of motivated by, is it right or is it wrong? And more often than not, we want someone to tell us it's right so that we don't feel guilty about it. And we feel like we have some permission to at least do something because it's okay. I think a better question to ask is, is this a wise thing to do? To discern? Is this helpful for me and for my future and for my spouse, whether I'm currently married or will be? Because statistically, even if you're single, overwhelmingly statistically you will be married at some point. And so I think about things like this when it comes to masturbation is more often than not, it's a secretive behavior. And whether it's sinful or not, when I've got secrets in my life, it creates division in my relationships and a sense of separation, and that's not healthy. I think about how masturbation is primarily a selfish act, that it's true, training me to meet my needs when I want and how I want. And as we all know in a marriage relationship, being selfish in that way, getting what I want when I want, is almost never good for the relationship. And so if I'm training my brain that I'm going to be selfish and get what I want, it's not setting us up for health in a marriage relationship. And then the third thing that masturbation is doing is it's training our brains that sex is about my climax. And that's really one of the great cultural misconceptions we have, because it's all about me and what I get out of it. And even if. Because some men and women will say, well, as long as I'm thinking about my spouse, isn't that okay? Well, it's certainly better than thinking about someone else's spouse or lusting. It's a step in the right direction. But even if I'm thinking about my spouse, I'm still training myself that sex is for my pleasure and what I get out of it. When the Bible really teaches us the. That sex is about mutual enjoyment, in fact, when we read, you know, the letters of Paul and the teachings of Christ, it would say, even in our physical relationship, my attitude should be, I'm here for you and you're here for me. And somehow in that other centeredness, I find that I get more joy and pleasure than I could have if I was seeking my own pleasure. So whether we want to define masturbation as sin or not, I think those are three really important things for someone to think, think through. Is this creating secrets in my life? Is it training me for selfishness? And is it training my brain that sex is about my pleasure? Because all three of those are detrimental to significant relationships and especially to a marriage relationship.

Yeah.

And I think what we'll see too, is that there will be single people that aren't married that maybe ask this question a lot. I mean, I remember asking this question a lot when I wasn't married. And I think, you know, something that I had heard before was the idea of looking at it like you're cheating on your spouse or your potential spouse with yourself. So you are even right now, even though maybe you're single and you're not married, but you're masturbating, you're still think of it as you are cheating on your future spouse with yourself. And so it is just, again, elevating yourself above everything else. And I think it's also important to know that, like, God created our bodies, we are sexual beings, but we don't have to have sex in order to survive. And so understanding, even at a biological level, it's not something that you have to do. Even though the world tells us it's very normal and natural and you should do it, it prepares you for marriage, when in reality, it just distorts your sexuality.

Yeah, again, it's a misconception. Our culture's taught us. And something else we want to realize is that it's not possible to climax without creating bonding. And so if I'm involved in a cycle of masturbation, I'm bonding to something, whatever I'm thinking about, to the feel of my own hands, all sorts of things that when we want to have a marriage, relationship, will work against us. And so when we realize just the realities of our physical body and our brain, that ought to at least give us pause to say, well, what am I bonding myself to? And how could I preserve that for my future spouse?

Yeah, you know, a lot of times when I would get asked that question in a group, I would ask, well, what's the motivation? And most guys wouldn't know. They wouldn't have thought about that. And so I'd say, well, what are you feeling that you don't want to feel? Or what are you not feeling that you want to feel? And sort of getting to the bottom of, like, if I wasn't doing this, what would I have to face? And I identify that too in other process addictions, like with food. Like Trevor, you pointed out sex, sexuality, our sexuality that God created is not evil inherently. It's a normal and natural thing that he created. But how we use it and why we use it, that's really the key. And Nick, you're saying that as well. Like, am I using this to grow closer in relationship to my spouse spouse, or am I using this because I want to feel something, or I don't want to deal with something right now, or I don't want to feel something? And I think a lot of times when you are struggling with that question to answer in the moment, what am I feeling? What is it? That I don't want to deal with. And usually I want to avoid something to come back. I think that can be really helpful, too. And you realize, oh, I'm really stressed and I'm having anxiety at work and I don't want to deal with talking to some people tomorrow. Like, okay, well, that. That's a different issue there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great discussion, guys, because these are probably a number of topics that many people have simply never thought through when it comes to masturbation. And sometimes that's because we've simply carried into adulthood patterns that started in youth and teenage years, and we haven't had people mentor us or train us how to think differently. And so, keeping along those lines, let's go to this topic. What are some things that dating or engaged couples who are preparing for marriage and want to have a great marriage and have a great sex life, what are some things those couples can do to prepare for healthy sexuality in marriage?

Well, I mean, the first thing is very simple, and it's, you need to get sexually and emotionally healthy. So if you're in a state of addiction or you're in a state of sexual or emotional unhealth, you need to change that. But then something that we also don't consider, and, you know, in my background and my story, I've had some of this, you know, as well, is you think that, well, just because I'm marrying the person, it's still okay, like, I'm still bonding to the right person. You know, eventually we're going to get married. But the reality is, is that when that's happening before marriage, when you're, you know, doing stuff sexually that you shouldn't be doing, and we all know what that means. You know, if you have to ask. This is a good adage. If you have to ask if it's right or wrong, you probably already know the answer. But I think it's important to know that if you're acting out sexually with, you know, your fiance, you're going to carry that shame into your marriage. And that is going to affect your sex life. Because once you're starting to do it, you know, have sex inside a marriage, it's interesting how your brain, it's not as exciting because you know that this is right where before when you were engaged, it was wrong. There's that natural kind of, you know, excitement that you get from that. But then you also carry shame. And it kind of. It really does distort and twist what sexuality should look like inside of marriage. And so I would say stop doing that now, because really what you're actually doing is you are hurting your marriage by acting out sexually now.

Yeah, and research bears that out. There's actually hard data that says when couples have cohabitated and been physically active before marriage that they are more likely to divorce in marriage. And I think what it is, is you've told your brain and your body that that bond of marriage isn't what starts our relationship, that we've predated that. And so now once you have the bond of marriage, it's not as strong as it is meant to be.

I think it kind of flips the order too. Like, I think about how thankful I am that my wife is my best friend and we are friends first. And being able to, in a dating relationship have that friendship bond, as this is the initiation of our relationship. And that one, once it develops to the place where, like, okay, we're willing to commit to life, then, you know, to being together to life, then. Then. Then the sexuality is a result of that. Because there are plenty of times in marriage where you're not sexually active when, you know, when people are not feeling well or when there's, you know, a pregnancy or there's lots of different reasons why, you know. And the other thing that we've talked about, guys in my group have said, well, question that comes up is, I'm dating this girl, and, you know, I've really had good sobriety for over a year now. Is this something I feel like I should disclose? And the answer is, yes, absolutely. And I think the dating process gives everybody the opportunity to be very vulnerable and honest. We tend to, on the first date, put our best self forward. This is as good as I'm ever gonna look, you know, and try to convince the other person that they should like us. And I think what we can sometimes miss in the process of dating, especially when we move to engagement, is that step of, I want you to know everything about me. I want to be completely honest. And I think that's right and good and a great foundation to start the relationship on so that you're not in the place where a lot of people in our groups are, where they're having to go back and say, yeah, you remember this? I didn't really tell you all about that. Let me tell you a little more. How about the next question? We know that relapse is a possibility within groups. So if we have a guy or a gal who is continuing to go back to that place they said they never go before again, or really just not making any progress, it's not like a one time, but it's just over and over again and they're kind of stuck. What can we do as group leaders and group members to help?

I think what we want to do first is kind of analyze what are they doing. It's helpful to take a group member back to the covenant, contend the memo of understanding the group guidelines, and ask, are they doing everything in their power to pursue health and freedom and sobriety? So are they engaging with their homework? Are they making their weekly phone calls? Are they honoring their commitment to change and working hard at that? Are they showing up in the group with their homework prepared? And if all those things are checked off like, yeah, yep, yep, then we want to look at some deeper issues. We find in pure desire groups that about 30% of people need clinical counseling beyond the group experience in order to find sustainable freedom. And very often that's connected to emotional wounding from growing up or some sort of significant trauma that's just creating some blocks in their thinking and in behaving that they're not able to move through with the group. So that's what I look at first is are they doing all the things they can do? And then let's look at bringing in some help. But very often it's in that first step that people get hung up. They think, well, hey, I show up at group, but I'm not free. But they're not doing homework, they're not making phone calls, they're not fully engaged. And then they're surprised that it's not working. And I've said this to a thousand guys. It's the Dave Ramsey quote of, I'm not going to make a guarantee because if you do the work, you won't want your money back. And if you don't do the work, I'm not giving you your money back. And I just see that in groups over and over and over that when a guy engages, does all the work, he's very positive about the impact it's making in his life. But the guys that are struggling and frustrated can very often point to some of their own efforts. But if their efforts are there, and if it's a woman, same story. If her efforts are there and they're doing what they can do and they're still stuck. We need to bring in some outside help and let an expert walk through what might be holding them back.

Yeah, and then let's look at it from the other side, too. What not to do would be to emotionally respond, because I think as a, you know, for Me, when I was a group leader, I would find myself taking, taking it personally if this guy wasn't finding healing, which is my own junk and my own mess on display in this scenario. And so understanding that I can still be honest with this guy or this gal about, hey, you know, you're not putting in the work and what you're doing is you're actually hurting the group. You're making this an unsafe place for the group. And so be honest, you know, like you're talking about going back to the covenant to contend, but at the same time know that I can't respond emotionally. Like, I can't take it personally, you know, Nick, something you say all the time is, I can't care more about someone else's recovery than they can, and they should. And so I think it's important to know and prepare yourself that if you find yourself in the situation and group that you need to be doing the preparation to be gracious and to be understanding and to really, what it boils down to is, do I trust the Lord that he is going to do the work in this person, or do I just trust my ability to lead or facilitate this group well enough? And you know, you know, obviously it should always be, I need to trust the Lord that he is doing a work in this person and that he's not going to give up on them. Okay, cool. Let's go to the next question. So we know that really sex, and specifically today porn is a problem that isn't just an adult thing. We see that tons of high school students and younger are struggling with porn or sex addiction. And really it's something that's even just proven through research that the statistics are astronomically high about the use and the views on pornography from this demographic. So what do we as a ministry as far as resources? What do we have for that demographic?

Yeah, it's incredibly unfortunate at what a young age our society is sexualizing our youth. We know that. And this is an older stat, so we believe it's probably much, much lower. But we know that the average age at which child Encounters Pornography is 11. I've seen some other stats say as low as 9. They're not as broad as a research, but still, it's. It's terrifying. And so I think there's a couple of things that we as youth leaders can do and is definitely as parents, the number one thing that has to happen is sexual education has to happen at age 5 or 6. As soon as your kids are starting to talk about sex. Where do babies come from what are the parts of my body? We need to be getting into those resources. And Pure Desire offers a page on our website for parents that is a list of some great books that are available written by Christian authors that have God's design for sexuality. And it's age appropriate for my kids. We started with both of them when they were 5 and 6. My daughter first because she was much more inquisitive about babies, but for both kids. And I would recommend too that if possible, mom is reading through the books with the boys and dad is reading through the books with the girls to start. And as we approach puberty, then we switch and of course, you know, for your kids own comfort that they would be talking to the same gender about their sexuality. But the goal is that we want our sexuality to be a normal conversation that is not awkward or weird. Pure Desire also produces materials for teenagers. These are not sexual education books. These are with the assumption or workbooks. They're not. They're with the assumption that sex education has already happened, that that our youth understand God's design for sexuality. So if that's not in place, it's really important to have that place first. But behind that mask for young women ages 13 to 18 and Top Gun for young men ages 13 to 18. And really what these are is their emotional discipleship for that age group dealing with their sexuality. So essentially answering the question, okay, God's given me this gift of sexuality. How can I steward that into marriage if I'm, if I'm going to be marriage or into, you know, my own celibacy if I'm not? And so what I really love about those groups is we really try to get the kids forward thinking like, what are the choices that I'm making today? How are they going to affect my future? And one other resource I would mention that is about to come out, we've been taking pre release orders on it and really excited about it is the digital natives. And this is really for parents and youth leaders to help your kids have conversations.

It's so good.

Is it?

It is. It is really well done. Yeah. Brian, you are a co author with Heather Kolb on it. Yeah, it's a great resource.

That's correct. Yeah, I'm excited.

You know, we get this question a lot at our events. How do I fix my kids and you don't to help them. And we respond all the time to say the number one thing you can do to help your kids is make sure you're working on you. Because unfortunately among parents there can be this attitude of, well, it's too late for me. I'm messed up, but how do I make sure my kids don't get where I am? And to say to them, it's not too late for you. If you would address your issues of sexuality and struggle and what it's going to do, it's going to retrain your thinking, and you're going to become a much more open, honest parent to your kids. The greatest thing we find lacking is kids don't have parents that talk to them. And I don't mean one time sitting down and having that awkward, horrible birds and the bees talk and then never bringing it up again. We mean the kind of ongoing conversations that Brian's talking about where kids know mom and dad are safe people to talk about sexual things. Mom and dad have shared with me an appropriate way some of their struggles and the mistakes they've made. And they've owned them and they're working on them. And when that level of communication is happening in the home, kids will thrive because God made our children to want to follow us and emulate us. And when we don't talk, they will emulate our weaknesses and our sins without even meaning to. That's just the way human nature works is we will pass on our faults because we don't address them. And so if you really are feeling like, man, I made a lot of mistakes, I don't want my kids to make the same mistakes. Your silence is the worst thing you could give. It's you facing your issues and then being able to communicate that will really give your kids a fighting chance to face the same things but make different choices.

Yeah. Super good.

So we encourage couples to be open and honest, to have really good communication. I mean, we've talked about it in several ways in this podcast about disclosure and being honest when dating. But it can create this question about what level of conversation can we have with our spouse, particularly if we're in a group. What about the group is safe to share with our spouse? And what should we not be sharing with our spouse if we're in a group?

Yeah, I would be very, very careful to not share everything. We've had some of that a breach of confidentiality, which, you know, again, goes back to. It's a part of the covenant to contend. But, you know, something that I've tried to practice is really, if I find revelations in group about me, about my past, about my upbringing, about my relationship with the Lord, that I can share those things with my wife. You know, in our situation, I had A really trusting wife. You know, my addiction hadn't affected my marriage, maybe like a lot of, you know, people have had in their. In their story. And so it wasn't like she was hounding me when I walked in the door. But I still did feel that I wanted to share that experience with my wife, to have her be on the journey of my healing as well. And so for me, you cannot share. You should not share any answers, anything that anybody else shared in the group, even if they say it's okay to go home and tell your wife, no, don't go tell your wife. But to just make sure that you're really only sharing your stuff and to make sure that you're not dipping into your full disclosure, you may accidentally start stagger disclosure a little bit on your spouse. Don't do that either. But just make sure that you're sharing just some things that you've been thinking about, some revelations that you're getting from the Lord through group.

You know, one thing that's really great to share I found is your faster scale. And again, not specifics about your week or, you know, or definitely like you said, Trevor, nothing from anybody else, please. Hey, you know, Joe is going through this too in this. Don't say that. But, you know, this actually came up for me the first time when I. One of my group members was asking, you know, I'm really struggling with the faster scale. I don't even know what I'm feeling. And I don't really recognize some of these behaviors. Some are subtle. And somebody said, well, ask your wife. And man, she gave him a list. Like, she's like, oh, you're definitely in this and you're abusing sarcasm. I mean, it was just. She had like half the page circled.

And now I'm in TikTok. My wife told me how I'm feeling.

But my wife and I, I have found that we dialogue about where we're at and it's a great conversation. We're not really talking about relapse. We're talking about, man, I'm feeling really anxious today. And just say, well, why? And I'm like, I don't know, let me think about it. But she sees my week way more than my group members do. And so she'll start asking me, well, what about when we went to your folks house? Or what about when this happened or that happened? Like, oh, yeah, that's a good point. Or the kids did something. So I think the faster scale is a great conversation piece to share too.

Another thing to keep in Mind as we talk about what can we share from our group is we really encourage group members that their spouse should not be reading their workbook. If there's something from your workbook you want to share, that's great, but when you do your homework, you can't be filtering it with that thought of, oh, my spouse is going to read this. I won't write that. I won't say that. She won't understand this. He won't get that. So I tell group members all the time, you fill that out as if you are the only person in the world that will ever see it, because you need that kind of unfiltered, just flow of thought, like I'm writing down what I'm feeling. And sometimes because you have that freedom when you share it with your group and it's safe and it's confidential, you'll find you're connecting things in ways you never have. But if you have this thought that, well, then my spouse will read it, you'll write with a filter and it'll change your answers. And so we have couples that have to have that conversation early on to say, here's where I'm going to keep my book and please don't read it. And that would be a violation of my privacy. And in that conversation, you can express to your spouse, the reason I'm going through this group is so that I can learn to openly communicate with you. But if you're monitoring every step of my progress, I'm probably not going to engage the way I need to. So to approach it from that positive sense with your spouse of, hey, if you'll give me some space to process. Super open over here, then we're going to start to have the conversations we need to in our marriage. And they really find that happens. That's good.

Cool, guys. Let's go to the next question. So really recovery, there's a lot of software out there that is helpful for this sort of stuff. You know, we're seeing more and more really become available and some pretty good stuff out there. But let me just ask this. What are some filtering softwares that we at PureDesire would suggest or recommend?

Sure. So I think it's really important to first identify the difference between a filtering software and accountability program. If you filtering software blocks things that you've already told it, I really don't want to see this. And a filtering, I'm sorry, an accountability software is something that you install on every device you have and it reports to people who you trust, hopefully your group members. Hey, this is what I'm doing online. So that even if the filter does not work, your group members have honest communication about where you're going on the Internet and what you're doing. So you can say, yeah, I hit that site. I didn't know that was about, you know, and they can ask you some really good questions. But regarding filters, the way I look at that is any device, sorry, any service I use should have filters. And if it doesn't, then I'm gonna really consider do I want to use it. Some. Some basic examples. YouTube has the restricted mode. Google has safe search. You can just turn it on, basically. Say, which is one of the best ones, by the way, because almost everything we do is through Google nowadays. So you can just go into your settings, your account settings, turn it on, say, hey, look, I. Whenever I'm looking online, just don't show me things that I disagree with morally. I don't. I don't want to see porn. I don't want to see gambling or whatever your other struggles are. I don't want to see these things. Facebook has similar things for, for threads and posts and Instagram. So I just encourage people with any device or, I'm sorry, any service or app that you use on an ongoing basis, just do a quick Google search and look up filtering. And almost every single one of them has the ability to take explicit information or lyrics out that you don't want to see. Almost every service has the ability to take out the content that you don't want to see. If that service does not have the ability, then you have to kind of ask the big question. And I would recommend doing this with your family or your group. Should I be using this service in the first place? Can I use this safely now? There's some applications that it won't matter, like my online banking. They're never going to show me porn.

I hope it's a Sad.

Fingers crossed 30 years later, somebody's listening to this podcast, man, do you remember when the banks didn't show? But, yeah, I mean, they're more likely to, you know, like apply an erroneous charge, then apply something I don't want to see. So, you know, obviously there's some places it doesn't apply, but anywhere you're reading content, viewing content, streaming video. Streaming video, yeah. Find out. Does that service have the ability to say, I don't want to see stuff that's explicit and make sure to turn it on?

Yeah, you know, just to be even specific, you know, some things that I've used Covenant Eyes just with the accountability, where it sends a report of my activity to somebody, and preferably someone who's in my group who can hold me accountable. You know, we've talked about that in a couple previous episodes, so that's a good one. And then just one that I've used, I've found success with is R Tribe. It's a smartphone app that you can use, and really, it allows you to track the progress that you're making. It allows you to check in and break isolation. You know, we'd rather you make phone calls, but this is just another touch where you're able to break isolation. And then what's really cool is the features it has is that if you've. If you're triggered, you can hit I'm triggered. And it sends a notification to your group members if you've acted out. It will ask you questions. So you got to be honest, but it'll ask you questions. Were you bored? Were you hungry? Were you tired? Were you alone? And then it starts to track, and you start to see some of your patterns. And so that's been one that's also pretty good. So just specifics.

Okay. I think I have the final question, and this might be philosophical, theological, I'm not sure. But why does trying harder not work? Because for me, it seems like it should. It really seems like if I worked at this hard enough or did enough of the right things, this ought to work. I mean, that seems like a human nature thing. So we say it a lot. Why does. Why does trying harder not actually work?

Yeah, we've answered this question quite a few times at events and on even some of these podcasts, because it's kind of. Our approach is if I just pray enough, read enough scripture, read the right books, confess, you know, kind of do those things that should go away. But the mistake we make is assuming this is simply a behavior I'm trying to change and a choice I'm trying to make better. But what it leaves us blind to is the deeper issues that are driving our behavior. And when I refer to deeper issues, to me, it's really twofold. It's the brain issues that are going on, because when we've been walking in sexually compulsive behavior, we've created pathways in our brain and chemical responses where those chemicals are being released and making us feel good and feel something. That those don't just change because we try harder. So that's one of the deeper issues we have to face. And then the second is really to understand why I'm Doing this behavior in the first place, because any addictive behavior, whether it's substances or a process, abuse, is serving some purpose. It's medicating a pain or it's a way of dealing with life. And by trying harder, we're simply reinforcing the pattern that got us there, which is usually some sort of performance mindset or putting on some kind of show so that people will love us more. And trying harder is just reinforcing that pattern where we need to look under the surface to say, where is that need coming from? And where can that need be met? And that's why the group process is so valuable, because we get deeper into our lives to look at that heart level modus stuff. So in Pure Desire, Ted Roberts talks about it as the noose of addiction. And a noose is a great image because with a noose, the harder you pull, the tighter it gets. And if we're just trying harder, the noose is only getting tighter because we're convincing ourselves, I can't do it. I'm not good enough. Which only creates more of the need for the behavior to continue. So we've got to look at those deeper systems happening both in our soul and then also in our brain.

Well, and I think even practically, if you look at it, I mean, our ministry has been helping tens of thousands of people, you know, get free. And that we consistently see that trying harder doesn't work. Work like that's what people have been trying harder for decades. And it doesn't work. And I know that the three of us in this room can attest to that. I know I personally can tell you I tried so hard. I've prayed so many times, I've journaled, I had read every scripture I can. I've tried to get mentoring. It didn't work like this. It didn't work. And so it's just. Even on a practical level, just looking at the numbers and the amount of people that have told us it doesn't work. It's just a natural truth.

I think it always brings us back to, you know, I agree with you, Nick, that it is a spiritual, emotional, mental thing. It's not just one quick fix will do it, or if I just did this thing, I'd be there. But I. But I think the truth that always comes back to is that, you know, in my weakness, that's where God's strong. And so in the one place that I feel the least able to, to get it right, that's probably the one place that God wants to meet me at more than any other. I mean, it's. He designed me. He knows all my flaws and all my failures. And, you know, if I can trust that in that spot, if I, if I share with others in group, if I am honest with myself and with my, with my creator, with God, then I'm really counting on him to pull it off as opposed to myself. And it seems more likely to maybe, maybe happen that way.

Yeah, that's awesome. Way to bring it home. Well, Brian, Nick, thanks for talking through these, these questions, guys. These are great questions that we hear pretty often, and we're excited to continue doing these FAQs. So thanks for your time today, guys.

Yeah, glad to be here.

It was a lot of fun.

So we desire for these FAQ episodes to answer, really any unanswered questions you have. So if you want to submit questions for future FAQ episodes, there's a couple ways you can do this. You. You can email your questions to infouredesire.org using the subject line PD podcast. So again, you just email your questions to infouredesire.org using the subject line PD podcast. And then also you can post your question on social media using the hashtag pdfaq. Again, that's pdfaq. So if you have questions and you'd like to get those on the episodes, we'd be more than happy to answer those. And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can also follow us on social media. Earedesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey.

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