030 - Living Free

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity.

Hey there.

I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Let's roll.

And today we're pumped to have a good buddy with us today, Ben Bennett. Ben is a speaker, an author, and a mentor with Josh McDowell Ministry. He also is an author of our college age resource for men called Living Free. So, Ben, thanks for hanging out with us and welcome to the PD Podcast.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me, guys. Good to be here today.

Yeah. So we have Ben with us today to talk about Living Free, how to reach younger generations with sexual and emotional healing, and why it's so important to pour into the coming generations. So let's get right to it, Ben. Really, man, we just want to start with this. Can you just introduce yourself to our listeners? Anybody out there who doesn't know about you, of your backstory and how you got hooked up with us at Pure Desire?

Yeah, for sure. I'd love to share a bit more about myself. So I'm originally from Virginia Beach, Virginia. I'm 28, an unmarried guy, and I'm currently living in Dallas, Texas, and working with Josh McDowell Ministry, as he said, which is a ministry of crew, formerly Campus Crusade for Christ, and Help Connect People to Solutions ministries and churches, connecting them and people to solutions to overcome unwanted behaviors, including porn. And so the way I kind of got into this to share a little bit more about my story was I struggled for years with pornography and unwanted sexual behaviors. Kind of all started when I was. I was younger. At a young age. I grew up going to church. I started following Jesus at a young age. But sex was this taboo topic in my family and in the church culture that I grew up in. It was by the age of 12 that I got hooked on pornography and masturbation. And some friends told me about it, and it quickly became an escape for me. It was like a drug that medicated the stresses of life. And there was nothing at an early age that brought about that same high, that same kind of escape that I could get from pornography and masturbation. And also at an early age, I began dealing with a lot of mental health stuff as well. Anxiety, depression, ocd, Tourette's. So I just kind of had this cocktail of coping mechanisms from an early age to deal with the stresses in life. Some things going on in my Family. And so from an early age, I began living in isolation, hiding, trying to do life on my own. And with this unwanted porn use, you know, growing up, going to church, I knew and learned about what God's design was for sex in marriage. And I wanted that for myself. And so I didn't want to be doing these things and going back to porn and masturbation, but I just got caught in the grips of it and felt deep shame, felt hopeless. I felt like there was something wrong with me because I kept going back to these things over and over. And no matter what I tried, I couldn't find lasting freedom or help. And slowly I began to open up about these things and in high school and a little bit in college, but I just couldn't find lasting freedom or true answers. You know, I tried the classic try and pray it away, pray more, memorize scripture, get accountability. But I couldn't find lasting freedom. And so it wasn't until I hit my version of rock bottom where I got sick and tired of being sick and tired and finally decided to reach out for help and do some research and find out. I got to the point where I realized this has to be more than just a moral problem. And that's when I came across Pure Desire and started going to a Pure Desire group in my area in the Washington, D.C. area. And soon enough I was going through the outpatient doctor Ted Roberts was counseling me. And for the first time, I really began to experience freedom as I. As I realized there was much more going on than just the behavior. I had these wounds from my past that I was coping with in many different ways. And I began a new lifestyle change of reaching out rather than acting out, and began to process, triggering me how my past was getting triggered in the present. And one of the big takeaways, I think, for me in my healing journey was that we're wounded experientially in relationships and we have to be healed experientially in relationships. And I began to experience that as I went through my own healing journey. And so I'm so thankful to Pure Desire and you guys and all the things that you're doing, because I truly believe God used this ministry, Pure Desire, to save my life and change, completely change the trajectory of my life. And so now I get to share about God's healing work that he can do. I've been sober or free from porn, masturbation, and sexual fantasies for four and a half years. I absolutely love getting to serve and help others.

Yeah, Ben, I love that when you Share your story Just the ways that so many men and women who are listening can relate to so many aspects of it, of growing up in a home where you just didn't talk about these things. And at a young age, things come into your life that you don't know how to process and there's no one there to process them with. And so you just learn to isolate it and figure it out on your own. And where there are solutions offered, whether it's a church or a parent that just says, hey, don't do this or that's wrong, and the solutions aren't effective in creating any change. And so the problem grows to that point where sooner or later we have to deal with it. And in your story, I think a cool thing and part of what we're going to get to talk about today is that you faced that battle as a single person and so many of our listeners have gone through the battle as a married person and it's the relational conflict that led to it. But just a follow up question to your story, if you don't mind telling a little bit more about that rock bottom moment as a single guy, what gave you the motive to say I'm going to do whatever it takes to change us? Because I think a lot of single men and women, they don't have enough relational conflict created to want to change yet. So what was it for you that you think got you going down that path?

Yeah, specifically for me, it was I was involved in the campus ministry organization in college and struggling. But this whole time I was a top student leader and I loved discipling younger students. And I applied to work for this organization and initially heard a no because of my to work for this organization because of my struggle with pornography. And looking back, that was one of the greatest blessing in disguises for me because that's when I realized, wow, you know, God is calling me to ministry. But unless I figure out what's really going on and enter into this process of healing, I may not get to do what I feel like God is calling me to do. And that's when I sense God's call in my life to get help myself and then to start groups to help many other people because I knew all my friends and many other guys in college were struggling with that and I didn't want to take this into my marriage. Quickly on in recovery I started, I heard so many stories of other married guys. I was the only single guy in my initial recovery group and marriages were being torn apart left and right. And I don't want to see that happen. I wanted to see health and freedom and a healthy family one day in my own life.

Yeah, well, and we're so grateful that your journey led to a new resource. So tell us a little bit about that as you walked through this journey and we're starting to find healing and freedom. Where did the idea come from for Living Free and how did the book come about? Talk us through that process a little bit.

Absolutely, yeah. So as I was working through my own healing journey, I began also leading guys through Top Gun, which is. You guys know this way better than me. It's your resource. But for those who don't know the resource of pure desire, for teenage guys, it's a great resource. And I was taking some college guys through that, but I quickly realized, wow, a lot has happened in the past five to ten years as far as the addiction rate. And while there's great concepts in Top Gun, the addiction rate has escalated and guys needed something that was more intense and more specified to the college demographic. And there was this overwhelming need for something deeper like the seven Pillars, but contextualized to work around two semesters. And that was much deeper than Top Gun. And so seeing that need, talking about that need, I remember being on a phone call with you all and some other campus ministry leaders and then later got a phone call from you guys approaching me to write this resource. You all sensed the need, saw that, and approached me to write Living Free. And eventually I agreed because, I mean, English was not my strong suit. Writing was not my strong suit. You know, I'm pretty sure I plagiarized a couple writing exercises in college and got found out for it. And so this was a real step of faith. Okay, if you want me to write this, I'll try it out and see what happens. But actually developed a love for writing through that process. So once again, so thankful for you all. And now I do a lot of writing and began with as I was finishing my outpatient process and my first or second year of recovery, put together an outline with some of my co authors and thought about what were the most important lessons for me in this process and what were some of the most important lessons in the seven Pillars and in Top Gun and what might be some new lessons specifically contextualized for the college campus that I needed to hear because I was only a couple years out of college and guys I was working with needed to hear. And so through lots of discussion about about a two year process and lots of feedback, we had many people speaking into the Resource giving feedback and wanting it to be as transferable as possible. So if you could read, you could lead.

Yeah.

And through that two year process of writing feedback, of getting feedback, of writing, of getting feedback and of refining it, we came out with the finished product about a year ago.

Yeah.

Yeah. So you guys worked on that resource as a team, you know, your co author, Brett, and then working with Dr. Ted Roberts. What, what was Ted like in that process in terms of, was, was he encouraging of you guys in writing or was he kind of aloof to it? Tell us just a little bit about the relationship you had developing this with Dr. Ted Roberts.

Yeah, he was very encouraging. Very hands off. Very, very. Go for it, you know. Yeah, looking back, it was kind of unbelievable. The amount of creative freedom and encouragement he had. That just speaks to his own humility. The fact that, I mean, he's an expert, has done this stuff for decades, and here I am, a new guy who's, who's he's mentored and who's been in this a couple years. But he trusted me because I was on the college campus and gave feedback along the way and helped refine things, but was very empowering throughout the whole process.

Oh, that's so cool.

Yeah. Well, and so, I mean, you talk about how, you know, the difference between Top Gun and the difference between seven pillars and. And really, you know, what I'm hearing you say is that this is more like seven pillars and Top Gun if they were kind of put together for that middle, you know, that middle ground there of the college age. So dive in even more to that. So tell me, like what the resource itself, living free, what would you say is the message? Like, what's at the core of it?

Yeah, so it's kind of hard to sum it up because there's so, so many messages in there and it's almost a year long, long journey. But there's a couple things that come to mind for me, I think really it's. If you could sum it up, it would be how to live truly free. And that's not just being set free from behaviors or unwanted struggles, but set free to experience the abundant life that Jesus came to bring. In John 10:10, Jesus says that he came to bring us abundant life, this full, satisfying life. And in the Greek, the word for abundant is exceedingly more, more than is necessary. And that's what God desires for us. You know, it doesn't mean we won't suffer, doesn't mean we won't have hardships, but. And we can't control our circumstances, but we can control our reactions. And the question is, are we going to just survive in life or are we going to thrive and experience this abundant life? And this resource gives the tools to do so as you walk through it in community. And one of the things I'll say, too, is that this is something I so appreciate about all of the resources that Pure Desire puts out is that it's not just about sexual sin or overcoming unwanted sexual behaviors, but it's about all kinds of coping mechanisms and working through the underlying factors of what's driving those coping mechanisms, whether it's anger control, procrastination, being the classic college student addiction, all kinds of unhealthy behaviors and finding freedom from those. But. But freedom to experience this abundant life. And I think one of the greatest freedoms we can experience is freedom to experience true intimacy. And I think the deepest longing of the human heart is to be fully known and fully loved. And I love how Dr. Ted says that sexual addiction is ultimately not about sexual. But it's an intimacy disorder. And we're created to have intimacy with Jesus and others whether or not we're married. You know, God has a way of satisfying those needs now in our process of finding freedom from those behaviors, what we were looking for all along. And that's true intimacy, what we need the most. And it's beautiful how God has designed that.

Yeah. And it's so cool, man, that you. That the Lord led you to this, because I. I'm telling you, when I was in college, I could have used something like this. I mean, I felt like what was around was, you know, every man's battle, every young man's battle, which are practical tips on how to get pure, but not on how to find the wound and to find true healing in that. And so I just.

I love.

I love what you've done with this. I love, you know, that this is a part of our ministry, because back then it was one of those things where I was afraid to step into ministry or afraid to serve or afraid to be a part of real, true biblical community because I knew I had the secret and the shame.

And.

And the thing too, is, like, even though, you know, other guys struggle with it, it doesn't matter. Like, Satan uses it as an isolation tool to just push you deeper and darker into the corner. And. Yeah, man, I mean, I wish. I do. I wish my life would. Would be probably a little different today. It'd be maybe a little healthier if we'd had something like this when I was in college. So it really is something that helps you dive deep and into, like, the darkest corners of your heart and your woundedness and be able to find really lasting freedom, not just from addiction, but freedom from being held captive by shame.

Yeah, I totally agree. On our college campus, a lot of it was like the Neil T. Anderson, bondage breaker kind of stuff.

You're dating yourself here a little bit.

Well, but I think that's still common in Christian campuses. It's like the pray it away approach of just break the curses, cast out the enemy, stand in the word of God and the blood of the lamb, and all that's true and good. But the shame that can come when you're doing all of that. It feels ultra spiritual and like we're going to the core of this issue. And then you still struggle and you're like, I must be the most unspiritual person in the world because I said all the right prayers. I walked through this workbook and I'm in bondage. And so what you're helping provide on the college level just for single men, Ben, is, I think, to really take them through how freedom happens. And one of the great things about this podcast, we have a real variety of people that listen in. And so many people might be tuning into this one, not because they are a single young adult male, but because they're in a category they want to help. They're a church leader or a pastor or just someone concerned about the coming generations. And for many people, the millennial generation, younger generations can be a little bit scary or even intimidating for a church or a parent to know how to help, how to work with them, especially when it comes to a sensitive issue like sexual purity and pornography. So how can churches, how can people reach out to younger men and women and really help them in this area?

Yeah, I think if you know the answer to that, I'd love an email.

We'll just fix it all.

Yeah, I feel like I'm just getting older and dated by the day as a 28 year old. But Generation Z individuals, ages 22 and under, growing up in such a technologically saturated, ever evolving world. It seems like I don't have any stats to prove this, but I would imagine that their culture and demographic is changing quicker than any other generation in years past because of technology and so trying to keep up with them, but really studying, I think in anything, studying and learning about the culture, you're trying about the context, being curious, and knowing that change is our friend. You know, in the church, obviously there's some things that will never change that we don't want to change. Like the gift, the message of the gospel, we always keep the gift the same, but we need to change the gift wrapping. And I think a lot of times we can get stuck in this mentality of, well, we've always done it this way and so we don't want to change or it would be too hard to change. But one thing I've kind of realized is whether it's our. In some churches, some ministries, maybe many, our tactics, maybe the way we're reaching people, or our worship or services, or just the way we do life can often be. We can often think as, or label it contemporary, and we can view it as contemporary. But really, I think many times what we consider contemporary is the new traditional for Generation Z because they're so evolving and they're growing up with, on social media, with high stimulus, just high quality things that they're seeing all the time. And so studying and learning about that and sticking to the timeless biblical principles that we see of, of reaching people the way Jesus did it. There are, you know, culture changes, but some principles stay the same. You know, Jesus asked questions, he sought to understand people. He was authentic and real. I think one of the greatest things we can do is know our story. We can know where we've come from and how Jesus met us and met the needs that we had. And then we can seek to understand other people, young people. And I think one of the greatest things we can do is realize younger people, Generation Z are hyper connected, yet lonelier than ever. You know, we have, many of us, myself included, have over a thousand acquaintances or friends on Facebook, but how many of them are actually real friends? You know, and people have this desire to be fully known and fully loved. And as we know our story and how Jesus met those needs in our life, everybody has these common desires, these common deep seated needs, and we can speak into their life as we get to know them and reach them and point them to how Jesus can bring about freedom and how he can meet those needs and how we can invite them into the abundant life that he came to bring us.

Yeah, dude. And I think that you're right on with the invitation thing because I think that especially, you know, you and I, we're in the millennial bracket and we desire authentic and we desire to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. And I think that oftentimes we, because we're, you know, us and the younger generations are scary for churches to try to reach because they're not sure how sometimes they just stiff arm us or avoid us or put us in another category. And in reality we want to be a part of the team. We want to know that we're working towards something and we have a mission. And I think that churches, when they're reaching and they're trying to find ways to reach the younger demographics is to just be real. I mean, I think that something in the church that is done far too often is hiding who we really are. From the pulpit, from the stage in community, we just hide who we are. And authenticity is always inviting and always asks people to come in and be a part and then also just to really give people a jersey and put them in the game. I mean I feel like we. I know I don't especially as a pastor and, and as just a guy who was going to church, I want to be on the team. I want to have a role. I want to know I'm going to have the rock in my hand and I'm able to do something with it. And so really giving that sense of empowerment. Because the reality is the younger generations are going to be the next generation leaders. So if you want to set up the church for success, then that's why this resource and this sort of mission for churches of reaching younger demographics is so important. Because they are the church, they are the coming church.

Yeah. So well said.

Cool man. So, you know, kind of off of what I was just saying, really it is important to reach the younger demographics and it's more than just because, you know, they are the next generation for our church. So just what are some other reasons you could see that's really important for the church to reach the younger demographic of people?

Yeah, just to reiterate that. Hyper connected, lonelier than ever. What does that look like in 10 years if people continue to be hyper connected and lonelier than ever? That's just a question to let simmer. You know, what would a culture look like in that where there's a lack of depth in many of our relationships and a lack of depth in our leaders. They're our future leaders. And thinking about to the escalating porn use or the escalating. I mean just in the past 20 years or so, the amount of people who used to struggle with porn to. I've met, you know, maybe two guys on the college campus involved in crew of the campus ministry who don't struggle with porn, who have never struggled. Like this is the new norm for people to struggle. And it's skyrocketing on the female side as well. It's the new norm for the majority of individuals to struggle with porn or unwanted sexual, sexual behaviors. And that's just revealing this deep cry for intimacy, this deep cry to get those needs met. And it's not being met. Many times in the relationships there's that people are, people are having now they're crying out for connection, for love, for acceptance. And porn is becoming more addicting and addicting by the day. I mean just with virtual reality coming out with the intensity of some of the things, the videos being made. Since it's like a drug, there has has to be more and more intense thing to get that same dopamine hit the same high that you originally got. People are finding themselves looking at things they swore they would never look at. And these are our future pastors, our future leaders. And in many senses there are, they're already leaders. They're setting the stage of where we're going. You know, they're dictating what's cool. They're dictating how businesses are reaching people. If you think about social media, so many businesses are using social media now and the primary users of social media are young people. And two, I think the reason it's so important to help reach young people is I just imagine a world where this continues. What if we don't do anything? What if the church of Jesus Christ doesn't intervene and porn use continues to escalate. Imagine just for a minute a world where the majority of people have a pornified mentality, not just are consumers of porn, but it actually affects their lives and the way they interact. And I know this from my own struggles. Porn causes us to be self seeking, to objectify and use other people's other people. It causes us to be deceptive, to start looking at things we swore we would never look look at. It causes us to be sexist, to be okay with the sexual abuse that we see on the screen and to carry that over into our own sex lives, into our own world. A common stat is that 88% of pornographic videos are violent in nature towards, towards women. When you see that over and over, what does that do to your worldview? And the reality of the industry is we don't even know how many, what percentage or the people watching on the screen, who's trafficked and who's not, who's held captive in that industry and who's not. And so I just think about if that continues and a generation is being raised on that, what is that going to look like? And one, one documentary filmmaker said porn is what the End of the world looks like porn is what the end of the world looks like. And he was getting into all of the abusive and bondage and explicit types of porn in interviewing people in that. And he was just weeping. He said, and he's not a person of faith. He said, if this is what the world is going to look like, I don't want to be a part of it. You know, God's law is written on our heart and we see that we're meant for something more, something more satisfying and really view this as a challenge that's not worth facing and reaching the next generation. Or we can see it as opportunities we have to help people meet Jesus and get those deep cries of their heart met in Jesus, in the body of Christ, and to understand that sex is, is awesome. God designed it to be awesome. He's for it. He has a satisfying design and he has something so much better than pornography that will truly meet your needs. So just a couple thoughts.

Yeah, I think that that's such a great image of the future, Ben. And just describing is that the kind of world we want and everyone, I think listening would probably go, well, well, no. So we see that the fruits are not what we want, but to stand up and address the roots and say one leads to the other is still a hard thing to do. And I think it underscores why this is so important, why what you guys have worked on in this resource for single men is so valuable. So what would you say to someone who's listening and they're maybe a single, young college age man trying to think, should I go through this? Or maybe there's someone that's in church leadership and they're wondering, should we make this an emphasis or something we really focus on? Why should someone go through living free? What do you think that they're going to get out of the material? What kind of fruits might they expect in their lives or in their church?

Yeah, I think, man, I can't even. There's just so many things I think they'll start to experience. Wow. I'm actually being satisfied in my life now because then the legitimate, legitimate need I was trying to get met in a illegitimate way is actually being met. My need for intimacy, I mean, that's what sex, all sex is all about. Not an escape from intimacy, but an expression of it in marriage. And God has designed ways as single people to still get those same needs met. You look at Jesus, the greatest expression of being human. And he was fully God as well. But he was single his whole life. Yet he was not less of a human because he wasn't having sex or wasn't married. And so God has ways of meeting those needs. And if as single people, we can, or we can raise single people or we can raise this next generation to be wholehearted, to know who they are, to know how God meets their needs through his people, and to be confident in who they are. And then they'll be giving in relationships and not taking. And so I think there's so many, so many benefits not taking this into marriage. Understanding woundedness. Everybody's wounded in life. And so oftentimes the questions people have about God or the ways they're coping and the ways are not satisfying. Life is being satisfied in life is being driven by woundedness. And if we have our young people go through this, then as they're in middle school, high school, they're going to be actually saying, you know what? I see what you're doing. And I've struggled with that in my own life. And here's how Jesus has actually met that need and brought about healing and freedom. And here's why I'm more satisfied than I was. And I don't just say no to this because it's wrong or because the Bible says so, but because it goes against design for me and then what he desires for you. I think what you'll find in living free is it's one of, if not the most holistic, clinically sound and practical resources out now for college age guys. You know, that's why we wrote this. And it's all based on. A lot of this is not new, it's just repackaged. Sure, there's some new lessons, but a lot of it is based on the work of Dr. Ted Roberts. So I feel confident and humbly saying this is an awesome resource because much of the thoughts, you know, came from him and his great work and Pure Desire's great work. I think guys understand how they experience this true intimacy, grow spiritually and emotionally because our emotional health is not separate from our spiritual health. We're holistic people. And one of my favorite is it's practical, it's transferable, and it's easy to understand and implement. You know, it's one thing to understand the problem of pornography and unwanted sexual behavior and that woundedness is driving it, but it's a whole nother ball game to have a practical resource that will almost hold your hand step by step to, in the power of the Holy Spirit, experience healing, experience freedom and experience. Jesus came to bring us.

Yeah. And I Love the point you made in there, that if people could grab hold of that idea that my life, it would actually be better, more complete, more full, more holistic, without this in my life, that that becomes motivating rather than what's kind of our Christian approach at times is, well, I don't want to do it because it's wrong, it's bad, it's shameful. So it's a very negative message of why I'm trying to change versus that idea of what needs could God meet? What are those legitimate needs I could be meeting in a legitimate way? How fulfilling would that be? And I. I just love the way you express that. So I hope that's something people can really grab ahold of.

Yeah. And too. I mean, think when I was in the midst of my struggle and my addiction, I remember having a conversation with my dad telling him, I don't want my kid to struggle with this. Like, when I was at one of the lowest points in my life, I told him, I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to help my kids if they struggle with this. And, you know, it's cool that I've realized now that I've found freedom and I found healing, that I am much more aware of how to help my kid grow up in a healthy environment and grow up in a place that's full of grace and does not throw shame around, you know, all the time, and is a way to just raise him in a way where he understands that self awareness is important and understands that this life's gonna be tough and there's gonna be ways he's gonna want to try to escape it, but to press in. And so I just. I think, you know, and this is what I love, Ben, about the resource, man, is that it just. It really, really is focused on reaching people younger and younger. Because if we reach the college guys right now, like, those men are gonna be husbands and fathers and they're gonna raise kids and they're not gonna do it perfectly. They're gonna be sinful. You know, they're gonna mess their kids up just like every parent does. But they're gonna be able to do it in a way where they understand what true health looks like and just set an example for their kids. So, Ben, this dude, this has been so great. I mean, we. We really appreciate you, really, your willingness. Because writing a book, man, and writing a resource like this is not. Not like this took you a couple afternoons at Starbucks, like, you really had to hammer this out. So really, every episode, man, we want to end with just giving our guests the opportunity just to encourage anybody who's listening. So what encouragement would you give to anybody out there, whether they're a young man or woman in college or maybe there's someone who, you know, isn't and wants to pour into that younger generation? Just what encouragement would you give to people out there?

Yeah, yeah, I would say, you know, whether or not you would call yourself a Christian or not, I think, you know, we've got to understand what God's heart is for us. You know, God is not ashamed of our brokenness. He willingly enters into it, and so oftentimes in our weakness, in that brokenness. And when we humbly come before him, we experience his love and we experience transformation. He's not looking for perfect people. He's looking for honest people. I think with your sin, he dealt with it on the cross through Jesus, and he invites you into forgiveness and into healing. And love was the fuel that sent Jesus to the cross. It's not like he merely. He's like, oh, yeah, I'll tolerate you. I'll be okay with you. Yep, you know, I'll be fine. I'll like you, but I'm not gonna love you. You know, I just simply tolerate you because of Jesus. No, that's not it at all. Love was the reason why he went to the cross and invites us into forgiveness and that relationship with him, man, really, if God can do this in my life, despite my level of woundedness, my mental health struggles, being driven by woundedness, the amount of sin I've dealt with, the ways I've hurt other people, and if God can bring about healing and restoration in my life, if he can hold the universe together by the word of his power, he can surely do this in your life. And he wants to. You're never too broken to be fixed. Jesus delights in redeeming and restoring that which is broken. That's his main message. Redemption, of healing, of reconciling us to Himself. And one day, he'll restore this entire world. This life is not all there is. And life is so much better. It's more satisfying when we engage our stories, when we engage our brokenness. We experience God's design for us and his healing work. And that brokenness so oftentimes is the bridge that we get to experience his healing, his grace, and his love in the best possible way. Most days I can say, looking back, I'm so thankful for the story that God authored in my life. Despite the pain, the woundedness, the trauma, the addiction, because on the other side, I experienced, looking back, I experienced God in a way that I may never had experienced. Have I not ever struggled? And so I'm so thankful that God has brought me through this. And he desires that for every person, he loves this world radically, and we can never escape his love.

Well, that's really great stuff, Ben. And I think what I take out of this conversation, my encouragement to anyone listening is wherever you're at, if this is a battle that you're in and you haven't really taken some steps to face it, don't wait. I mean, here's three of us sitting here saying we wish we could have faced it early and earlier, and we're relatively younger men, so to speak, and there's no reason to wait until it's ruining a marriage or destroying a career to go, okay, now I'll deal with it. That if you're a young adult man or woman, you're not married yet, you're single, just say, this would be worth any effort it takes if I could arrive in a place of freedom and joy and start a marriage that way or start a career that way. And so I just, I thank you for the example you are of that, Ben, that you saw what God had for your life and he said, I don't know if I'll get there unless I face this issue. And you did. And the doors that that's going to open for you in terms of relationships and your future, it's exciting. And I just hope anyone else listening takes that same message to say, wherever I'm at in my life, it's, it's worth fighting this fight and I'm gonna go for it.

Amen. Amen. Thanks so much for having me on, on the podcast, guys. Yeah, it's a joy to be with you all.

Yeah, man. And we, we're just thankful for the partnership with you and how much work you really poured into this material, man. I mean, it's. Again, like I said, it's not a small feat. So the fact that you put this work in and we're faithful to it and you're continuing to push people towards it is great. And we just appreciate you. And thanks for hanging out with us.

Absolutely. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks, Ben.

Yeah.

And if you are a listener out there and you're a pastor or a leader and you want to fight against this and you want to help reach the younger generations, we encourage that you check it out. And then also if you're a college aged or a high school kid and you're looking at really how to get healthy. This is a great resource. We would just push you to that and you can actually check out Living Free on PureDesire.org Living Free. So go check that out and and then also if you want to keep up with what Ben is up to and more info on him, check out www.imlivingfree.com. you can learn more about Ben and his ministry with crew and Josh McDowell. So guys, Ben, Nick, thanks so much for hanging out and talking through this resource.

Thank you.

Good times.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org. you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.