035 - Eight Pillars to Freedom

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, just want to give a shout out to some new friends. We met in from St. Paul, Minnesota at a recent Pure Desire University. It was the first time we've had a picture taken because of fans of the podcast that felt like they knew us and it was really awesome.

So you know who you are? Apparently we are podcast famous. That's great.

That's right. Well, I love. Because it's kind of the goal of the podcast is to create a sense of community and that people aren't alone and that. That they're a part of this. And that was just cool to hear from a couple of guys. Like, we feel like we know you, even though this is the first time we've met and hopefully there's a lot more of you out there, that this is a place of community for you.

And just be careful that when you come up to us and you say, hey, I know about your life, it sounds creepy unless you give us some context.

We'll get used to it, though. Give us some time.

And joining us today are Anna Phillipson and Ashley Jamison. We have Anna and Ashley with us, really, to discuss our groups, known as the Eight Pillars to Freedom. So both Anna and Ashley have been in and have led these groups. So we're gonna push into their experience and expertise and as we really unpack these groups and the resources that we offer. So, Anna, Ashley, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thanks for having me.

It's really good to be here.

All right, guys, let's start with this. Who is the Eight Pillars group and material for?

So the Eight Pillars group is really for women who feel like they have a struggle with love or a sex addiction. So it could be displayed in a number of ways, just like it would in, like the Seven Pillars group. But it's this one is specifically geared towards women.

So to ask a follow up question on that, some of the women that are listening might feel like I'm a candidate to be in both a Betrayal and beyond group, which is our women's material for those that are married to an addict or have been married to an addict and are struggling from the fallout of that. But they also recognize I've got some of my own issues with whether it's love or sex. And if they're wondering what's the right starting place, how would you ladies direct them? Should they work first on their own addiction issues, or is it better to work on the trust issues and the fallout in the marriage first and then deal with their own issues? How do you. How do you see that working best?

I can answer that because that was my situation. I started in the Betrayal and Beyond group because of my husband's addiction that came out. And it really wasn't until then that I realized how much of my own issue I had. And so I always suggest to women that they start with the group that's really causing the intense pain in their life. And so for some, it could be that their addiction is completely out of control and it's causing so much pain that they're ready to do the hard work, to change, and that's where they should start. But if it's a woman in a marriage and she just found out that her husband has a pornography addiction or just had an affair, then that's going to be the place for her to start. And then once that hemorrhaging has stopped and they've come to a place either together, individually, where they're kind of more stable, then she would go and work on her own issues after that. And so wherever the most pain is, start there.

Yeah, that's really good perspective, because it reminds us that if we're being caused a great deal of pain by one thing, we're really not going to be able to focus on the other thing appropriately anyway, so deal with what's most pressing. And I think that's probably encouraging for women to know they could start at either point, just depending where they're at in their journey and in their story and in their relationship with their spouse. So in this whole area, one of the things we are up against is the common idea or thought that sex addiction and lust and pornography, that that whole spectrum is really just a man's issue. But we know that's not the truth. So what would you say to women right now who are listening to the podcast and they are struggling with this? Maybe they feel like they're the only ones struggling with love and sex addiction and are even beating themselves up because they have a man's problem? How would you respond to women that find themselves in that place?

Yeah, I've talked to a lot of women who have been in that place, and it's just. It's super challenging because there is kind of that idea that this is still, like, man's problem, but as we know with all, like, sex addiction, that it's just a growing issue right now, and that that would be the same thing for with women as well. And so I would just say that this eight Pillars group was super helpful for me. And I did feel like I was kind of one of the only ones, you know, I hadn't talked to a lot of women that at the time that were struggling with anything like this. And so. But once you kind of get into the group and start talking with women, you realize that you really aren't the only one. And there's a lot of other Christian women who are. Are struggling with the same kind of thing. And it really reduces the shame around it, because in the Christian culture, it's like there's already shame around it being a man's issue. And then for women, it seems like there's even more.

Yeah. And I would just add, too, that it's not just, you know, that love and sex addiction is both a man and a woman's issues, but it's porn addiction, too, that a lot of women are struggling with pornography now. And there are some women even that are questioning their gender attraction because of watching pornography with women on it and then wondering, why is this arousing to me? Maybe I'm a lesbian. Is this why I'm not turned on by my husband or a man, but I am by this image I see on pornography. And pornography will do that. It will cause them to be attached and aroused to that, and then they question their attraction to a person, a real person that may be a male, when really it's just they're bonding to this image regardless of what it is. And it's taking away from being able to be intimate and vulnerable with a real person. And so it's causing so much confusion. But there are a lot of women who struggle with pornography as well.

Yeah. As you ladies share that, it makes me think of a question. I'm going to go off script a little bit here. And so if this isn't a great question, we'll strike it from the record and move on. But, you know, as Trevor and I talk with men at events or in groups or at churches, we discover there's really kind of a common pattern of how men fall into the addiction. If I could paint a real quick picture, it'd be that sometime in their childhood, they run across or are shown pornography way before they know how to process it. Very early, it becomes this secret, shameful thing. As they become teenagers, they end up looking at more and seeing more and by the time they really tell someone or are ready to deal with it, there's a whole backlog of unaddressed issues that are working against them. And that becomes kind of the context or the breeding ground for sexual addiction. And I would say, man, as I hear men's stories, that's 95% of them have those elements in the start. Do you feel like as you talk to women, and I mean, obviously you know your own stories, do you feel like there are some common elements that might be helpful just for other women to hear? This is how it often develops. I know every story is different, so we're not trying to create a stereotype. But do you see some patterns in how this issue develops in the lives of women?

I've seen a couple patterns that have repeated themselves throughout the years that I've been doing groups. And one is starting with fantasy. Just feeling so alone and unaccepted and not having a strong identity in who they are as a woman. And so then it starts this fantasy of obsession almost of what it would be like if they had a relationship, what that perfect relationship would look like, whether they're in one or not. And so this fantasy starts to run away, and you. You could get lost in novels or movies, and that escalates to sex scenes in movies and just on and on. And then, of course, the chemical attraction to masturbation. And so it just escalates in the same way. But I've also heard multiple stories, and I've even experienced this myself. Is when you find out that your spouse is struggling with a pornography addiction, the curiosity of what is it he's looking at that's so much better than me. And so then I've experienced myself, and I've talked to other women in betrayal groups where they originally went on, you know, like a porn site to see what is it that so much. What am I competing against, basically. And then they themselves get hooked.

Wow.

Yeah. So their addiction issues almost become a result of trying to deal with their husband's issues.

Exactly. So I really see it starting both ways.

Yeah. And I've. I've talked with a number of women who just have. They'll come from a home that's pretty strict. Strict, kind of like Christian environment where sex isn't talked about at all. And that tends to really lend them to be more curious. And they just kind of fall into, like, either exploring or like something that's like. That turns into shame from even with other. Just basically like, sexual trauma that's happening with other friends or even an Adult, and then that just drives them into the addiction even further.

Well, it's interesting, too, because the culture today, I feel like what happens is the culture tells women that your body is the currency that you have in this world. And so the way that you use your body or give your body is like your identity. I mean, you are a sexualized person, you know, and as you guys are talking about even pornography and women, it's what that's doing ultimately to either gender is it's teaching you a wrong view of what sex should look like. And so men and women are stepping into marriage thinking that this is what sex is supposed to look like. And so if I'm not responding to my spouse in this way or the person I'm having sex with this way, then I must be doing something wrong. And then that even it's weird, it almost kind of kick starts even more shame, which can push people more and more further down into sex or love addiction.

Trevor, that's a really good point. I was working with a young gal, a teenager, who was struggling with a pornography and masturbation issue herself. And she at one time said, I like watching images like that of, like, basically perfect, I'm quoting in my air, perfect women on the television screen or even like Twitter of looking at women with really nice bodies because she hated her body so much and thought she was chubby and overweight that she said it forced her to want to work harder, to be skinnier. And so it was like her backwards negative motivation. Right.

And I think it's important to note that both men and women battle shame as a primary motivator, that once they stumble into something, the shame of, how could you do this? What's wrong with you? You're the only one. You are living a lie that doesn't limit itself to one gender or the other. That's a commonality of the human experience. And I think that's actually helpful for us to all realize that shame is not unique to me or my gender. It's something that gets used against all of us to try to keep us isolated. And when we're isolated, we're not going to be successful. And so when we can recognize, boy, shame is just part of this battle, and I can face it and I can come out of that shame, it might give us a better chance to be victorious.

Yeah. So, okay, so we talked about the eight pillars really is for both sex and love addiction. And I think, you know, if you've listened to this podcast or you've been associated with pure desire for Any length of time. You probably have a good understanding of what sex addiction is. But love addiction tends to be this. I don't know, this kind of weird idea, you know, especially if you have no idea what we're talking about. So what exactly is a love addiction?

So a love addiction, it can be complex, But I see it being the root of so many sex addictions, even that somebody is longing to be loved and accepted. And so they're willing to do basically anything that could look like codependent behavior or even sex acts in order to just feel love from somebody. To feel pursued, to feel desired, to feel closeness and connection, even if it's just for, you know, 15 minutes. And so you can have somebody who struggles with having multiple sex partners, but it's really a love addiction driving it, that they're looking for love, hoping that, you know, somebody sticks or even you could have somebody who has a sex addiction. You know, they're. They're looking for that chemical release. And it could be to cover up the feeling of rejection from somebody that they want love from. And so it just can look so messy. So for me personally, on the surface, it would have looked like I had a sex addiction, but really I was looking for love and wanting somebody to desire me and pursue me, but then secretly have a sex addiction. The real sex addiction, which was a masturbation issue, but the sex wasn't the sex addiction that was pursuing love. And so it just can look so messy and complex. And I believe that this resource really does a good job of getting to the bottom of what is driving that behavior. Is it the chemical addiction to sex, or is it the pursuit of love or relationship?

Well, I think, just like we know that the visual addiction of pornography isn't unique to men, that women can have that battle, at the same time, we want to recognize the emotional connection for love and acceptance. And belonging is not unique to women that men can have that same need. And I think it's just helpful for all of us to really try to identify what is primarily driving me into the behavior. Is it the excitement and the images and the pleasure and the payoff of that, which tends to be more of a sex and pornography addiction? Or is it the deeper needs of emotional belonging and acceptance? And I think for so many people, very often it's a combination of the two. So it's not a clean line of you're either this or that and nothing in between that. Our brains have kind of gotten hooked up on both that on the one hand, there's images and pleasure from it. But on the other hand, it meets an emotional need. And so kind of seeing how we've gotten caught up from either angle can be helpful. And just remember it's not a male or female thing. Women tend to be more from the emotional approach. Men tend to be more from the visual approach. But it certainly is not unique to either gender.

Well, and that's been my, you know, just recently, I mean, me and Nick were having a conversation even just recently about this, and I think what I'm starting to see about my story is that it really is more of a love addiction. And that love addiction addiction pushed me into a porn and sex addiction. You know, and looking at really where my addiction played out, like the playing field of it was in relationship with, with, with, with women. And so it was something where that really was the underlying current of all that was just being accepted. I mean, I grew up in a, in a rigid, disengaged home. We talk about that a lot here at Pure Desire. That, that's really the kind of culture that tends to cater itself to sex addiction or love addiction. And really I experienced rejection at such a young age in multiple arenas of my life that I found anywhere that I can get affirmation of who I am, I can get acceptance, I can be embraced with, you know, with arms wide open. And what I'm seeing is that's really what led me into my sex addiction. And so just that's just my personal experience, you know, understanding that it doesn't mean that I'm wired more like a woman or anything like that. It just means that my life, my story, my trauma tended to manifest in a love addiction that then really the fruit of that became a sex addiction.

That's really good. I think that will help a lot of people understand just how complex it can be.

Yeah. So when we think about the eight pillars of freedom group, what are some things that people might not know about women who go through the eight pillars?

I think the biggest thing people don't know is that a lot of times it's just everyday women that you would never suspect expect going that, that benefit from eight pillars. Often when I encourage somebody to, to look at the eight pillars group, especially after, you know, leading a betrayal and beyond group, it's, oh my gosh, you know, I'm not a stripper and I'm not a prostitute. And I, you know, I've actually never even slept with anybody other than my husband or I'm not even, you know, I'm single and I'm not even in A relationship. But you can still be struggling with a love, porn or sex addiction, even if you've never been with somebody else, even if you're single, even if you're married, even if you've only had one partner. Because it could be fantasy taking over your mind. It could be masturbation even without pornography. It could be getting your, I guess, your needs met by comments that a co worker makes or somebody you work with in church when they compliment your dress or say, you did a good job on that project and that's what drives you and you're addicted to that. All of those little intricate things that on the surface you would think, oh, she's the perfect Christian wife, or she's single and she's celibate, so she must not struggle. It's really a matter of looking at how you're getting your needs met, what it is you rely on to feel better or to feel your value. And then you and God deciding, is this an area that I struggle? But it doesn't always look like, you know, strippers and prostitutes and people that have had, you know, 20 partners.

So let me ask a follow up to that for someone that's maybe listening and they're coming to this podcast from a very different point of view, where maybe they grew up in church or they didn't, but they went away to college and kind of got into what our world does where one night stands and hooking up is common. Multiple partners, just not a big deal. It's just maybe what people did, and so now they're coming into marriage, or maybe they're in a church and they're trying to do things right. How could they assess if they have a love or sex addiction? Or was it just that they were a part of a culture where that was common and they're just going to change their. Their habits and ways because they're in a different culture. Do you know what I'm asking? Like, how could someone who comes out of maybe just a real open background like that determine if they need to walk through an eight Pillars of Freedom group?

Well, we do see that where women may have had more of a love or sex addiction issue, that was easier to identify. Maybe they were younger and then now it's been years later and it's showing up in different ways, like maybe as a food addiction or anger or addiction to movies or romance novels or something like that. And one thing that is helpful is we do have the love addiction screening test, and that would be helpful to go through because you answer the questions like that if they've ever been true, and so even if they're not true today, but they were true 10 years ago, then that would still apply and the group would still be beneficial to go back and deal with all of the stuff that happened before.

And to piggyback off what Anna said, the sexual addiction screening test would be another test that if a woman was curious if she still had lingering issues or something that could be addressed through this resource, they could go to our website and look at the sexual addiction screening test as well as taking the love addiction test. And like Anna said, you only leave it blank if it's never applied. So for me, there's plenty of things that were, you know, one time events, but I would still mark that true because like Anna said, especially for some women who love addiction is the root of their issue once they get into a relationship, a lot of those sexual behaviors may stop that they used in order to find a relationship. And that was my case too. But then it was the hyper vigilant. I was smothering my husband. I had a serious need for control. I was still battling some OCD behaviors. And so I still had a lot of issues that once I went through that resource, even though I wasn't acting out sexually, really got to the root of those things. And if anything, it just brings you so much emotional awareness by using the faster scale as part of the resource and everything you do. And so it's really about becoming emotionally aware and not just addressing a sex addiction, but getting to the core of what's driving those symptoms.

So let me ask this thing because I think that you're touching on something that maybe we haven't addressed as much on the podcast. Is that. Let me ask this question. Is it possible for your spouse to be a part of your addiction? Like, is it possible for, you know, let's say, you know, a woman gets married and her love addiction is now, you know, it's not acting out, it's not looking at pornography, it's not, you know, unwanted sexual behavior, but it is that then they're smothering their husband physically. Is that their addiction just playing out in a different way inside the context of their marriage?

Oh, yeah, that was mine and John's story completely. I battled with all those sexual issues and searching for love. And then when I got John, like nailed him down, it was like I was obsessed with him. So I wouldn't go out with my girlfriends. I wanted to be with him all the time. If I ever felt uneasy because I had trust issues, clearly from My past. I was hyper vigilant in snooping for things. And I thought that way to keep him because I was so insecure about losing him. And one of my greatest fears is being abandoned either physically or just emotional withdrawal. I would try to be the perfect wife. So I would never say no to sex. Even if it was, you know, even if there was something bothering me between us. I would try to do everything perfect. And it was exhausting. It was completely exhausting for me, and it was exhausting for John. And it wasn't until his addiction came out that I. I felt God saying, you're using John for your identity, you're using him for your value, you're using him for everything. And I really had to learn how to separate that. And then our relationship started thriving. When I started feeling confident in my own skin and having healthy relationships outside of the marriage and trusting him more, that's when things really started to get good. And I didn't realize how good they could be.

Yeah.

Well.

And I think it'd be good for our listeners to know those two tests are available on our tools page on the website, but also, I assume, will be in the show notes because Trevor's on top of all that. Check out those show notes. If you've never walked through the love addiction screening test or the sexual addiction screening test, those can be very eye opening for men and women because it takes everything out of the gray area. And I think when it comes to addiction, we like to operate in the gray of the. Well, kind of sort of once in a while, maybe. And when you've got black and white. Yes. No questions that just help you see the reality of your situation. That's really clarifying.

Those questions sometimes suck. Yeah, it's not fun.

But we need truth. We need reality so that we can actually face it.

Yeah. Okay. So, ladies, we have talked about really what sex addiction is, what love addiction is. But what are some things that women will walk away from after going through eight pillars? What tools, what tips, what practices? And then even just awareness. What are they going to walk away with?

Yeah, we kind of touched on it a little bit in the last question about the faster scale and emotional awareness. The faster scale is huge because it's just used throughout the whole group. And that just helps to. Helps make you aware of what behaviors are line up and drive you towards the addiction. And so that's a big tool. And then just the emotional awareness and an understanding of what's driving the addiction and understanding of your addiction and the trauma that you faced. And so you walk through all of that and as you piece that all together, then you start to realize where the addiction started, whether it was a love addiction or sex addiction first. And then you can also see how that happened and what your day to day behaviors are that lead you to fall back into that. It's great because you can set up a plan basically to keep you from going down that path and what behaviors not to do. And when you have certain behaviors, show up how to address those and get back on track.

That's good.

Okay, ladies, let's get really practical about the groups and what people can expect. I'm hoping a lot of listeners are females who have not been in a group and this might really be an encouragement to them to consider one. So what is an eight pillars group? If they're using Pure Desire's recommended model, what does it look like? Like what can they expect? What's the format? Just paint that picture for us.

That's really simple. It's just usually the groups are about two hours long once a week. And it's encouraged to be working on part of the homework every day to renew your mind and your thinking. When you actually get into the group, it will start with going through the journal, which has the faster scale tools and the emotional awareness tools we were talking. So you would start the group the first 40 minutes going through that and just your check in from the week and how you're doing on your commitment. And then the next 60 minutes would be going through the workbook and everybody would go around and share their answer. And then the last 20 minutes, women will use that time to close out, to pray, to talk about their commitment to change for the next week. And then they'll be doing their check in calls throughout the week as well. So making sure to reach out and breaking that isolation and, and learning how to call people when they're struggling or feeling down.

And group size, is it two people, 20 people? Somewhere in between? What can they expect for the normal size group?

A normal size group would be about four to six people and then it would be closed after that, ideally so that it remains safe and predictable of who's going to be there. Any less than four, it could not be enough variety. Any more than six, it's just, it becomes a little less safe feeling. So it's not, it gets too big, people don't have enough time to share their answers thoroughly and it also becomes less intimate. So four to six is what we see be a great number for a group.

Yeah. And that confidentiality is so important that women and in a men's group really feel that this is a place where I can share anything and know that it can be held in confidence. And. And that's also why there is that high commitment level that you mentioned, Ashley. Because women need to know that what I share here is with people that are on this journey with me and aren't just popping in and out when they feel like it, that they're as committed to me as I am to them. And the way that can create a real sense of connection and friendship among the group is really significant.

Yeah. And the other thing too, a lot of the eight Pillars groups will use the Conquer series to start their group, at least showing a few of those just as an education piece of what's going on in the brain. And so although that is advertised for a lot of men, men's groups, most of our eight Pillars groups have found a lot of benefit in watching that in their group as well.

Yeah, that's great. Okay, so along that whole practical line, like what are some do's and don'ts when you're in an eight Pillars group? I think that we need to be aware of really how best to step into this and once we're in groups, really to know how to do it. So what would you say are some do's and don'ts when you're part of an eight pillars group?

I think that's really outlined well in our group guidelines. Just that's where those group guidelines come from. We created those because those are common things that we see. When applied, the group can be very successful. And when those things are not followed, then the group will deteriorate. So when I have a group leader call me and ask, you know, how do I get my group back on track? Or something like that, A lot of times I'll run through the group guidelines and I'll find out where they may be kind of loose on one of the guidelines. And that's usually exactly where and why their group is falling apart. So we really encourage following those guidelines because they were created out of what we see being our best practices. And so not allowing talking over each other. Don't advice, give, don't compare traumas in the way of like, if I say it was really traumatic, I had a C section then for another woman to say, well, I had a D section. So a C section is not as bad. You know that those kinds of things in group will clamp people up because it will be. Then their answers will start going through the filter of, well, I Don't really want to say this because then so and so is going to just talk about how hers was worse. And so really allowing people to just find their own answers, you know, use the resource to self discover, allow them to finish completely and then for them to feel like it's a safe environment for them to share without being worried that they're going to get advice or be shut down because their trauma isn't big enough.

Yeah, I think the trauma piece is pretty huge because all the women that come to the group, they've all had such different experiences and some may had some huge traumatic experience where you just say right away, oh yeah, that's trauma. But then others have had these tiny little things that kept happening over and over again that, that you wouldn't normally identify as trauma, but because they happened so much and it was kind of a string of little things that it's like turns into trauma. And so I think it's just really important that the trauma isn't a comparison thing and that, and that you don't feel, you kind of learn not to feel more shame because your trauma was worse. And then one other thing that I wanted to mention for just like other groups, other peer desire groups, the leader, the group leader is a part of the group. And so it's not like they're leading the group and they have everything figured out, but the group leader is going along, going through everything just the same as everyone else. And so I think that's a really unique structure to peer desire groups. And I also think it helps a lot with the healing process.

Yeah, absolutely.

So Ashley mentioned earlier that the group time itself takes about two hours to go through and the material takes about seven to nine months for a group to make it from beginning to end. And for a lot of people that's a significant time commitment, especially in a day and age when it's, you know, five week study on this and even 10 weeks is like, wow, that's a big time commitment. And we're talking much longer than that. So what encouragement or just insight would you give to someone who's listening and feeling like, boy, I think I need this, but I'm already so busy, I just don't have that kind of time. Can't I do it quicker, faster, easier? What would you say about that commitment level these groups require?

Yeah, the group commitment is a pretty big commitment. I mean a couple hours a week, plus the homework and phone calls, it's really daunting. And I talk to a lot of women that are just like, oh, I just don't have time for that. I'm way too busy with work or my kids or just a lot of other obligations or priorities. And what I find, though, is once they do make a decision to go through group, it's so beneficial that it outweighs that. And the emotional awareness carries into all areas of their life and it helps them to manage their busy schedule a lot better and to manage their stress levels and emotions throughout that. And it just is so important to take this step to get into group because you'll just see it carry out through all the life.

Yeah, I encourage women, and I think that's why we say at pure Desire that the pain level inside has to be high enough. Higher than the pain level outside in order to want to do, you know, want to make the change. The group could be for a lot of people, but a lot of people are not going to actually go through it. It's really for the people who want it. And so, you know, as the international groups coordinator, I encourage leaders to not try to convince people that they need the group to share about it and to offer it, but to not want their healing more than they want it. It really is most beneficial when somebody gets to the point and they may have to experience a little bit more pain until they get to the point where they say, I'm going to do this group, even if I don't get to watch, you know, that. That TV show once a week for the next year, or even if my. My child has to come out of soccer for the year, having a healthier mom or having a healthier me is going to be a lot more beneficial for them in the long year, in the long run over watching that show or being part of that volunteer ministry at church or having my kid in that sport. And so just encouraging them that they may want to step back from some other things for nine months to go through this resource. And until they get to the point where they can make it a commitment, just wait, just not go through it yet.

Yeah, I think it's important what you said, that this is a. It's a deep work and it's transformational. And one of the things that both women and men can battle against is that internal minimization. And we get a lot of this in our world today of, oh, it's not that big of a deal. Sex isn't a big issue. Like, just it is what it is. And when we're caught up in shameful behavior, sometimes we're minimizing it just so that we can sleep at night and feel okay about ourselves. And so we might be feeling like, oh, it's just pornography, or it's just masturbation. What's the big deal? And I know that's exactly where I was when I started my first group. It felt like I have this little issue with pornography, but otherwise, things are great. And when I got into a group and found out that pornography wasn't actually the issue to be dealt with, it was a symptom of much deeper issues in my life and things that I knew were there, but had never had a handle on how to actually work on them or change them. And going through a group really began to shift some of those deep things in my life about where I found value and where my identity came from. And that would be my encouragement, because I know it's true for men and women that if you're minimizing this of, oh, it's just pornography, or it's just a emotional need for affirmation, this connects to your deepest stuff. And if you'll walk through the process, it won't only address the behaviors in your life. It'll go all the way to the core of who you are, where you find your value and identity. And if you can see it from that angle, it's like, well, what price wouldn't I pay to get at those deeper issues in my life? What wouldn't I be willing to do to really have my identity grounded in Christ? To know my value comes not from my performance, but from who God says I am? I mean, those things are worth any amount of time and investment. And that would be my encouragement to anyone listening that that's really the outcome we're after here, is not simply to modify or control a behavior, but it's to change the way you do life. And we say that all the time. At Pure Desire, we're not about behavior modification. We're about a new way of life. And that's a price worth paying. And so the commitment level up front, yeah, it seems daunting. But take it from me and so many others we've heard from and talked to that say it is so worth it. And it's one of those things you really don't know until you go. Until you get started and see it. Then those things will really click and it'll make sense why it takes this level of commitment.

Yeah, and off of that, too. I just want to give you guys the opportunity we always end each episode with. This is really just what encouragement would you give? I mean, off. Off of What Nick is saying, how important it is really to get into this kind of stuff. What encouragement would you give to anybody out there who maybe knows they have a sex or love addiction and really are unsure what the next steps are? Or maybe there's someone out there who has no idea what's going on, they just know that they need to get more emotionally healthy. What are some tips or encouragements that you'd give to some of our listeners?

I would encourage that especially for parents. Well, for parents that it not only changes you and makes you emotionally aware, but it will change your family. When we started this process, my husband and I, our twins were 10 and now they're 14 and, and we have twins that are 14, 8 year old daughter and a 6 year old son. And the transformation that we've just seen in our family, not because we're implementing all these behavior or consequences and discipline, but because we simply started working on ourselves and we became so emotionally aware that we started recognizing things in our children and we were able to speak to them in a different way that was more grace filled, help them connect their behaviors with their emotions better. And so it's even kind of a joke where I just heard my six year old say the other day to our eight year old, well what are you addicted to? And it's like, you know, just almost like normalize that we all have something we cope with that's cool. So it's just, it's funny because our kids speak the pure desire language now and they're really aware of their emotions and what they're using as coping mechanisms. And then for the single person, especially because I had been there, I was a single mom with twins, I had already had sex before and so to, to really realize that you don't know what you don't know and if it could seem daunting, like I don't know if I could give up that behavior because like how would I be single and not have that behavior? But your want to, your desire and your brain can change when you do this hard work and so it doesn't have to look like white knuckling it but that you can really renew your thinking to where it's not a constant battle that your brain can change and you'll find joy in things that are healthy and good for you.

Yeah, I had a pretty similar experience when I started a group a couple years ago and my kids are a little younger at the time when I started my oldest was your old and a newborn and I with three boys and I felt like I was going to go a little crazy some days, and I didn't have great emotional awareness. And so going through group helped so much with that. And because I didn't have great emotional awareness, I wasn't teaching my kids that. And so they didn't either. And it's pretty common for, like, little kids to have meltdowns and, you know, tantrums and that sort of thing, but I didn't even know what to do with that. And it was really cool because going through group taught me how to manage my own emotions and then help my kids with that, too. And so now we can talk about our emotions better. And I've been able to teach them that in a healthier way. And so I guess I would say that an encouragement would be that even if you don't find that you might not currently be struggling with something related to love or sex addiction or porn, masturbation, any of that, even if it was something in the past, or you're not even sure that to go through group is so helpful, and you'll just see how it will help all areas of your life. And so maybe there's. Maybe it's showing up in a different way, but that if you just get into group and make the time commitment, it will. It will really benefit you.

And I think, Trevor, my final encouragement would be. In First Corinthians 10:13, Paul wrote that no temptation has seized you except what is common to people. And I know the word there, that in many translations is what's common to man. And when Paul said man, he didn't mean the gender, men, he meant people. And in the first century, when you meant people, you said man, and that was their day and age. But I would encourage all the women and all the men listening that there's something about everybody's story where we feel like, oh, if you heard this, if you wouldn't believe it, if I told you, you would never imagine the kind of stuff that's happened, or I've gotten into, or I've watched. And the truth is it's common and we've all been seized by something. And so if we can be encouraged to know I'm not alone in this battle, what's happening to me is not unique, but I have been seized. There's something that's really grabbed hold of me. And if we can admit it's grabbed hold of us and bring it to a community of people that we find out, oh, it's not unique to me, then we can face this and there's hope and there's healing. And so don't let any voice of shame from your past or any, you know, unique part of your story that makes you feel different. Don't let that keep you from pursuing healing. Because when you get into a group and you really start to open up, you'll find that there's. There's hope and there's community, and you're not alone. And so don't be afraid to take the first step.

Well, and just know that the group material that we've created, really, what it does is it's. It's an emotional track for you to run on. You know, I think, you know, all the time, this is what we assume is that, you know, we just. We can figure out how to become emotionally healthy on our own. And the reality is we're running through the wilderness without any direction and any understanding. And so, you know, I just think of, like a track, you know, where people are doing track and field. It gives you lanes, it gives you a direction, it gives you structure, and it allows you to be moving forward. And I think that, you know, you need to just understand that that's an important piece of getting into groups, getting into a community, really processing what's going on at the deepest core of who you are. Because if you don't, then you're just going to be directionless at times and be running around. And it may feel like you're working really hard, but you maybe are working in the wrong direction. So this sort of material really just helps us work in the right direction and work smarter. And so that would just be really the heart of. Of this episode and the heart of our ministry is to try to give people direction in their healing and give them hope and really know that healing is out there and that freedom is possible, not only to attain, but to maintain. Freedom is really important. So, ladies, this was really helpful. I mean, I've never been in an eight Pillars group, and so for me, practically, it's awesome to just hear your perspective and to hear really what your experience is. And so I just. I appreciate you just helping us understand the function and the role of eight Pillars. And I really do hope that this is going to be helpful for any listeners out there who find themselves in any of these scenarios where they're unsure or maybe they are sure they're struggling with these things and this really gives them some next steps. So thanks so much for your insight and your expertise, ladies.

Yeah, thanks so much for having us here today.

It's been great to be able to share about the Eight Pillars group. And I hope women will find out if it's for them and take the step to join one if that's what they need to do.

Yeah. And I just want to give a shout out to any men that made it to the end because you maybe saw it was for women and eight Pillars groups and it'd be easy to check out. But if you listen to the whole podcast, I hope this gave you ideas how you can encourage the women in your life or if you're married, how you can be a support to your spouse. Because the role we have as men of helping promote and support emotional and sexual health in women is very important. So, guys, thanks for listening and I hope that for the women in your world, this is, this is going to help you support and encourage them.

Yeah. And if you would like more information on eight Pillars, you can check out the store on our website. It's just PureDesire.org eight, eight pillars and that's the number eight and then dash pillars spelled out. So you'll find the eight pillars bundle, including both of the workbooks and the journal. And also if you want more information on our groups, our group material, how groups should function. Ashley is our International Women's Groups Coordinator. You can contact her directly at 503-558-2923 or you can email her at Ashley J uredesire.org we'll make sure that both of those are in the show notes at the bottom. And just know that Ashley, her job is literally to come alongside and to help churches get groups going and to help really facilitate starting groups and helping create healthy ones in your church. So don't hesitate to reach out. So again, all of you, thanks for spending time and talking about this and thank you for listening to the Pure Desire podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can also follow us on social media. Your DesirePDMI. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to purity.