036 - Difficult Group Members

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, making it great.

And back with us today is Robert AKA Bob Vandermeer. Welcome back, my friend.

Hey guys.

Good to have you, Bob.

Thanks.

So today we're going to talk about difficult group members. We've all had them, we've all been them at one point or another. So we want to talk through this reality in groups and how to best maneuver through it. So let's just talk about this, guys. When we say a difficult group member, what are we talking about? What does that mean? What makes a member of a group a difficult one?

I think a lot of times when we first think of a difficult group member, we think of somebody that is, maybe even has a personality that doesn't fit well or that causes problems or that, you know, they talk too much or they just, they don't seem to fit in well with the group. And I think that's just part of navigating personalities and having people in a group. But I think ultimately a difficult group member is one that doesn't make the group a safe place for everybody that's there. And by doing that, they might be one that doesn't honor or respect the time that's there or they might not respect other people sharing and you know, so they give unwanted feedback or they, you know, make comments that are inappropriate or things like that. But it's really just someone I, in my opinion, somebody that ultimately doesn't make the group effective and safe place for everybody else that's there.

Well, and the reality is when we're talking about the material that we have, we're working through sexually compulsive behavior or addiction. Those are patterns that are developed for a lot of reasons in our lives. Things like denial or rationalization, ways that we hide it or cover up. And those personality issues we've bring right into the group, you know, they don't go away just because we're facing our issues. We're still kind of wrapped up sometimes in our own pride or bravado or lack of self awareness. And so that's just a reality of groups is there's going to be challenging people. And we also want to be honest and humble enough to realize there's probably ways I'm a challenging person in my group. And so I hope in this episode it's very clear we're not trying to pick on anyone or point out like, oh, this person. Here's how you deal with that person. But, but really for everyone who's listening, just ask, how can I be a healthy, contributing group member as far as it's up to me? And the more we all are able to self analyze, then we're also able to reach out with some grace and compassion to those that might be difficult to work with. So I think it's just a reality of groups, but it's definitely something that can be overcome with a little skill and a little wisdom.

Well, and again, you know, it really can be just personality stuff because when I hear this question, it's like, egrs, extra grace required. Like those are the type of people that we're talking about. Those people that, you know, you know, maybe they don't do things the way that you would do it, or maybe their answers don't sound the way that you think they should. Or really it's your expectations aren't being met in a lot of ways. And so I think that, you know, kind of off of what you both are saying, we need to make sure, is it just a personality thing or is this person actually not, you know, devoted to their own health? But then also to make sure I'm checking myself when I walk in the door too, because it's not that my expectations need to be met in order for group to go well.

Well. And it really speaks to why we have so much of the resources and tools we have at pure desire for our group guidelines and best practices. Because we want to have some standards that people can come back to and look at, am I doing what I'm supposed to do? So let's dive into this a little more with group members. We've all led groups and have had challenging or difficult types of people to work with. So guys, in your observations or experience, what would you say are the most common types of difficult group members?

So the two that really come to mind for me, and these are just been, you know, in my group experience, what I've seen firsthand is the first person is the never on time guy. And so it's the person that really doesn't value being on time, doesn't value the time of other group members. And that really manifests in showing up anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes late, texting with 5 minutes before group saying, hey, sorry guys, can't make it or I'm going to be an hour late and really what that does is that compromises the time we have together. It compromises, you know, because it's a structured way of doing group every week. And what it does is it throws a wrench in it for everyone else. And. And then if you have more than one of these guys in your group or gals in your group, then it makes it really difficult to be consistent with group each week. And then the second one is the surface Y guy or gal. And that's where all their answers sound, man. Too clean or too polished. Like they, you know, stood in front of a mirror and practiced it before a group in order to sound convincing. And, you know, that's difficult, too, because I think that a lot of us can pick up on, okay, I've heard that answer before. I've heard those thoughts because maybe I've shared some of those things or tried to cover up or be in denial. And so, yeah, so being never being on time and the surface answers and not digging in, those are the two that come to mind for me.

Well, it's one thing to be late every couple of months, but if someone's routinely late, it really can show a lack of prioritization of the group. Because when something's important in our life, we're on time. You know, we're not late for things that really matter. And so if someone's continually finding reasons to be late to miss, that's something that has to be addressed because it's not just a crisis or an emergency. It's really a pattern. So what other types have you seen, Bob?

Yeah, and I think even with the people that are late, a lot of people are late just as part of their own procrastination and as part of their own recovery. And so it's not just that they're late for group. They're probably late for most things in life. And it may be procrastination. It may just be that that's part of an unhealthy pattern that has been created for them. And so then group's a great place to address it. You know, it's not like, well, we can't talk about. I don't know, let's call him Mac. We can't talk about Mac because he's always late. Well, no, this is a great place to talk about it. Hey, why do you think you're always late? Like, what's going on? Another thing I think that happens with people is they don't get their work done, so they'll show up to group and they won't have Their work done. And you'll be able to tell that they're not reading from a page, you know, when they go to answer a question or they go to check in.

If their book stays closed during going through homework.

Yeah.

And if, when they're reading their answer, they're looking up, well, like, clearly you're not reading your answer. And the whole point of us doing that work ahead of time is so that we come with work done, so that we can share and participate. And we've actually thought about these answers instead of just, you know, flying off the cuff. And that can really be frustrating because other people are putting time in, they are investing in their recovery. And so to show up and not have that work done can be detrimental to the whole atmosphere of the group. And I think another one that is kind of challenging is the person, once a group has a lot of momentum and recovery, the person that is continuing to relapse every week. And for the rest of the group, that can feel like a difficult group member because everybody else has some momentum. And then there's this one guy that he keeps coming back and he keeps relapsing. And it's the same thing over and over and over again. And it's like, well, okay, so did you get rid of this device? I did. And the next week they come back and they relapse because they got a different device. Well, and then the next week they got a different device, and then they got a different TV and then they got a different whatever. And it's like. And it can feel very difficult for the rest of the group. But I know in another one of the questions we're gonna talk about how to deal with this. So I don't wanna talk about that quite yet.

There you go.

For sure. I think when you've got a group member that is relapsing, that also is a great teaching moment. And I know we're gonna talk more about those. A couple others that I've seen is what I would call the advice giver. That for every problem, for every person that's had a rough week, for every trauma, they've got an answer or a solution or they're always jumping in. Well, have you tried this? Or thought about that? And sometimes I feel like people in a group can't help it. Like, they're so wired to help or to fix things, and they have to kind of unlearn that.

I have my hand raised over on this side of the table. That's me.

That's what you have to let another person's story be their story. And we want people to take the opportunity to say, hey, could I share something I've learned? Could I offer a perspective that's helped me, that can be appropriate? But if after every question someone's jumping in, they can shut people down because they're like, well, I don't want to share because so and so over there, there's going to tell me what I did wrong and how to fix it. And that can really become a drain on the group and on people being open. I think another scenario to walk out, particularly in the kind of groups that we're running, is the person that comes in and is a spouse basher. They're in a rough place in their marriage. And so every problem is, she did this or he did that or there's this problem, and if only they would. And all their trauma is pointing the finger back at all these things their spouse has done to them. It can feel like, are you here for yourself or are you here just because your spouse needs to get some help?

It's like a vent session for that person more than it is group.

Yep. And so we really, in those cases, keep directing a person back to, well, what about you? What's going on in your life? What did you write for your answer? Let's not talk about your spouse's faster scale. Let's talk about yours. So that can be another issue. And then I think maybe the most common one is just people that don't stay on task, that don't stay on the question, because you start going into past stories and they tell their whole life story and they've told it four times, and the group's rolling their eyes. So you really gotta get a handle on that. Otherwise people don't have time to share because you've got one person dominating so much of the time.

Yeah, yeah. To go back to the one you said before this, Nick, about someone coming in that's bashing their spouse, I think there's a lot of single group members that also have a difficult time with that because as they come into a group meeting and maybe they're thinking, man, I want to get healthy so that I can move into a healthy relationship. And then they hear regularly, if not weekly, from some of the married members that are in that group just how horrible marriage is and how horrible their spouse is and how horrible recovery is with being married and so on and so forth. To them, it's like, man, like, this sounds miserable. Like, I'm working on my own health so that I can have the Possibility of emotional intimacy. But yet every time this other member is coming to work to group, all they're doing is just purging all of this. And yeah, it's. It's great that it's a safe place to be able to talk about difficult things. Absolutely. But at the same time, I think that's where a good group facilitator comes in to say, hey, guys, that's also like, what can we look at maybe that we're grateful for with our spouse during our recovery and not to try and invalidate their experience and say, well, hey, you don't have any right to have a difficult time with your spouse, because obviously that's not the case. But to even to say, all right, what are some things that we can look at to maybe say, all right, yes, there's this. But also, what are some things that have been grateful that we're grateful for in our recovery with our spouse? Because otherwise, man, that. That could be so discouraging for a single person walking into a group and hearing that every single week. What am I. What am I doing this for then? To be intimate with who you know?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I know that none of us want to be a difficult group member. So how do we avoid being somebody like this?

Well, I remember when I started this journey, my counselor made a comment to me. He said, nick, this has to be top shelf priority in your life. And at the time, I was super busy. I was coaching local high school sports. I was a pastor. We had young kids at home. I mean, my evenings were full, my days were full, my weekends were full. And I really was kind of treating it like, I'll see how I can fit it in. And my counselor like, no, if this is not your top priority, it won't work. And that was a mental shift that I had to make. And honestly, no credit to myself, I made it to make my wife happy. At the time, it was like, fine, I'll do it, and all these things people forced me to do. But as time went on, I saw the wisdom of that. How it produced fruit, I think much quicker in my life because I was being very attentive to the homework, showing up with it done, getting a group on time, never missing group. I mean, there was not a reason to miss group in our lives unless there had been a death in the family or just something totally catastrophic, which honestly didn't happen at all that first year. And so that's always the starting place for my own experiences. Just to say to men and women that are listening, if this is really your top shelf priority, something that you've committed to, to say, I need this for the good of my future and my family. My life might depend on it. I think we just naturally do the things that it takes to do well in groups. We're attentive to our own story. We're looking at, what is God doing in my life? And we show up to the group ready to just process what God's been doing in my life. And that has a way of making us a really good group member. We're not there to hide anything. We're not there to act like we've got it all together. We're not there to fix other people. So I feel like 90% of the problems get solved when we're just really leaned into our story, what God's doing in our life, and making the group a priority. And then obviously beyond that, it's just being aware of what the group guidelines are. You know, we've all been in a lot of small groups or discipleship huddles or accountability circles or whatever name got used in whatever environment you were in. And you may bring with you those ideas of, well, here's how we did this, or that was always okay in my past group. Or we have guys, they come from AA meetings or essay meetings, and those are run a certain way. So I would just caution, make sure you don't bring your expectations of other groups into this one to really ask the question, what's expected of me here? What are the group guidelines? And if it's different than anything you've ever done, go with it. Because there really is some wisdom behind why we've set up groups the way we have. And so even if it doesn't make sense to you up front, read through those guidelines, say, I'm gonna do it this way. And I think you'll really find that there becomes a healthy rhythm and a routine to the group.

Yeah, the couple things that come to mind for me is the first one is just do your work. There's really no explanation needed. Just do your work. But the second one is to be honest. I think that being honest with yourself really is the first place to start. You need to be willing to put in, do the work, but you need to be willing to be very, very honest and share everything. I mean, I think that if you hold any of your truth back in group, it will be to your detriment. And also taking into consideration that it will also be to the detriment of your group. They could learn from your experience, they could gather more insight. They can hear from the Lord, different things from you, sharing your stuff. And so if you hold back in any way and aren't completely honest, it could hurt you and hurt the group.

Mm, yeah.

Yeah.

Kind of on the tail end of that. Just to say, own what's yours. Like, this is your recovery. It's only going to be effective if you're doing it. It's only going to be effective if you're taking the. Being there on time, getting the work done, being honest. Nobody else is going to make this effective for you. And if you're not owning what's yours, then you're not going to be. I don't know what would be the opposite of a difficult group member. An easy group member. A healthy group member.

Yeah.

A contributing group member. But, yeah, just own what's yours.

Yeah. And I think, too, a really healthy step could be for someone to go to their group leader and say, honestly, how am I doing? If you have any concern, if you're not a very good group member, you're wondering, boy, am I kind of a problem for my group just to have that humility to go and ask someone else to say, is there anything I'm doing that is negatively detracting from this group? Because I want God to work in my life and the lives of the other people in the group. And that could be a really great step just to be open to someone else's input. And they might say, you know, you tend to get a little carried away on these answers. And I don't think you wrote all that in your book, so could you just stick to what you wrote? Oh, okay. And there may be reasons you've done what you've done, but to just get someone else's perspective is so healthy. It takes a real humility on your part, but that's something I'd encourage. If you're concerned that maybe you're a challenge in your own group, go to one of your group members, your group leader, and say, hey, how can I improve? Because I want this group to be as good as possible.

Well, let's talk about the other side of that so that you know that question we're addressing, how to not be a difficult group member. And let's say, you know, we're someone who is a group leader or is a part of the group and we've identified someone who is difficult. What are some common mistakes that we find when we're dealing with difficult group members?

Yeah, I think one of them is kicking people out of groups. And sometimes that's appropriate. But really it's appropriate only if they're not sticking to group guidelines. So I mean, if they're safe, they're not making as many phone calls as everybody else. That's not grounds to kick somebody out of a group. But if they are showing up and they're not having their work done, or they're not showing up, or they're not calling and letting people know that they're not going to be there, or they're breaking confidentiality or, I mean, you know, if they're breaking group guidelines and that's been addressed and they're not willing to work within the guidelines, and that's something different because now they're not making the group a safe place if they're coming in and they're angry. And I mean, there's this one guy, he ended up leaving a group because he was getting yelled and cussed at by another group member during the group. Gosh. And so that guy left the group. Well, hold on a second. No, the angry guy that's cussing at group members should be asked to leave the group. And so, yeah, I'd say the quick knee jerk reaction of hey, you're not doing what everybody else is doing, so maybe you're not ready for this. Well, yeah, say that. Maybe ask them, hey, do you think you're at a spot where you're really committed to this? But unless they're breaking group guidelines, we don't really have grounds to kick them out. I think another thing is to remember that really we're all operating in the same or should be operating in the same economy of grace. So the idea that if I'm giving you grace, it's because it's already yours. It's not because you've earned it, it's not because you deserve it, it's because this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So if somebody is just, it's a difficult personality or they're having a hard time gaining sobriety, extend the grace to them. Because not everybody is at the same place. And I think a lot of time group leaders, let's just say if we're, if we have a group and a lot of the guys are gaining momentum quickly, or a lot of the people in the group, because this applies to eight pillars as well, or betrayal and beyond, whatever. If people in that group are gaining momentum quickly but other people aren't, then it's easy for us to hold that other person to the standard of everybody else. But we need to remember that the continuum of this for some people, you know, it's a two to five year process for the addict, I mean, for other people, the healing process is different. So to expect everybody to be at the same place at the same time really isn't fair to people in the group.

Let me piggyback off of that, because one of the struggles I had, and this is the mistake I think I made as a group leader, was taking responsibility for other people's journey and taking responsibility for other people's healing. And that for me, almost added more pressure and in some ways was a difficulty and a pain and would cause me to want to numb out, would cause me to want to go and relapse. And so that was one of the things that I struggled with the most, was if a guy was struggling in group or he wasn't experiencing the same amount of freedom as a group leader, I thought, okay, that must be my fault. I must not be leading well, facilitating well, answering well, supporting him well, you know, that kind of thing. And so for me, that's like the biggest mistake you can do is be more committed or feel more responsible for someone healing than they have to feel. Because I got to worry about myself, I got to worry about my own healing. And if I'm focused on someone else's more than my own, then we both will not benefit from that. Yeah, well.

And I think another thing that group leaders can do is we feel the weight or the mantle of leadership and then come into the group with a different mindset of I'm here to help these guys, I'm here to guide them, and my own stuff becomes secondary. Or a group leader might even feel like I have to hide my stuff because the guys need me to lead. And that's really the exact opposite of what we're trying to create in these groups. We want an environment where the leader themselves leads in humility, leads in openness, leads in addressing their stuff and doing their homework. And we try to say that over and over that you're not a leader because of expertise. You're a leader by experience and by your humility. And so that's something to really guard against, is feeling like I'm responsible to fix everybody else in my own issues now have to disappear. Now, we do encourage that leaders have a level of sobriety in their own life, that they've made a couple of steps down the road towards freedom because they'll be hopefully healthy enough to take on that leadership role. But we certainly don't ever want it to become something where now we're hiding behaviors, because, quote, unquote, I'm the leader. And what, you know, I see a lot in groups. It seems like there's a spectrum between on the one end being too militaristic, like you said, Bob, one thing happens and you're out of here. And the other end of the spectrum being way too lenient, where you just put up with a guy who's not doing their homework and is just going on and on without any kind of things written down. And he's like, well, that's Joe. We just let Joe do what Joe does, and it's happening week after week. Yeah, sorry for anyone named Joe. And it feels like there really needs to be some middle ground, that you don't want to ignore all the problems and just be too lenient. You need to address things tactfully, graciously, appropriately. And you also don't want to be kicking guys out at the first sign of a problem. But you do need to have some standards. You need to have those guidelines where you come back and say, hey, this isn't happening. Why not? And can we talk about it? So that'd be my encouragement to group leaders is just kind of figure out what's a sweet spot between those two. So the group has standards, but there is some grace that, hey, seemed like tonight Joe really needed to talk. And so we gave him a couple minutes and I didn't.

Good job, Joe.

I didn't just jump in and say, what did you write down? You know, but if it's becoming habitual, then I might be stepping in and saying, hey, could you stick to what you wrote? So some things I've seen, yeah, in.

General, I don't like using the word leader with groups. I prefer facilitator, because with leader, there is this mixed idea of, okay, what's expected of me? It's expected that I'm going to lead as opposed to facilitate, which just means make this easier to help them in the process. And as Christians, we get. We tend to get caught up on the word leader and the expectation that comes with it, and that can be not helpful to that environment, to that situation. Another thing that I realized that we're not really doing right now in this podcast is speaking generally about groups, even in terms of betrayal and beyond. And so I think the way that this same thing applies to betrayal and beyond groups is that if women are coming to the groups and they don't have their work done the same kind of thing. And I think more so where, you know, within the seven pillars, we would see guys that are relapsing maybe in a betrayal. And beyond group, there's somebody that's there, and they're just really angry and they're really hurt. They've experienced a lot of trauma, and they're having a difficult time, you know, moving through that and working through it and processing it. And maybe other ladies in the group have experienced a little bit more, I don't know, progress in this than somebody and just remember to have grace with them. Because again, the same way that that the recovery process from sex addiction takes time. And different people, they have different hurdles that they have to get over in that process, in the healing process. There's different spouses that have, you know, different trauma to work through. Some of it maybe is related to the addiction, and maybe some of it is stuff or a lot of the stuff that happened prior to the marriage or the relationship. And so just remember that people are different places. And it doesn't matter if it's the addict or the spouse. But this is difficult, regardless of how you look at it. This is. There's nothing easy about this for anybody. And. But that is why there are guidelines there to help us do this, and there's why there's facilitators there to help us process through these things well and.

Give the people credit like they're there. Like, there's so many people who aren't in groups. There's so many betrayed spouses that don't want to talk about it, that want to just be upset at their spouse and want to just bash them in any way that they can. And they're. Then there are addicted spouses or addicted men and women out there who don't want to address this problem, don't see it as a problem. And so at least at the entry level, really make sure that you're understanding, at least this person is here. And if you understand that, that there's some level of commitment from them, I think that will help you, like, your grace meter will stay a little bit higher if you just maintain that perspective. Well.

And we hear from women often. Why should I have to do work? It's not my problem. It's about him. And I'm just kind of here to share my story with some women. And what they can miss is how healing the homework is intended to be that as we process, as we get out these thoughts that have been in our brain and write them on paper, it engages us in change in ways that maybe we're not able to when we just come and share our story. And so that'd be an encouragement for women listening. I know it might be his problem and you're only there because he hurt you. And why should I have to do homework? But would you trust that the homework is going to be healing for you, more so even than just showing up at group? And so lean into it and see what happens. So guys, what are some ways that you have found success as group leader? When you're handling a tough member or a difficult situation like this?

It comes to mind more things that I did wrong than I did right. But one of the things that I've been even processing now being in group again is, you know, I'm in group now a second time is learning to make sure that I'm postured in a way that I am a safe person for, for my group members. So if I'm the advice giver or I'm the person who's always asking pointed, judgmental questions in group, trying to dig deeper, trying to be more, you know, I guess more committed to their healing, then that postures me as someone who's not safe. Especially when you run into group members who you feel like aren't committed to finding healing. So let's say you're in a betrayal and beyond group and you have a woman who really just wants her husband to get healed. That's it. And she's just there because she, you know, it's, it's just another thing to check off her list. But you need to be in a place where you've postured yourself to be ready for when that person has that, that moment where it just clicks, where they realize, okay, some things do need to change. And so making sure that you are relationally postured in a place where you can be that person that when they do hit rock bottom, they know they can come to you.

When I think it's so important that what we do as leaders, we're modeling what we want from the group. And so I've been in a lot of groups and I get into patterns where I'm not making very many phone calls. And you know what I notice? My group doesn't make very many phone calls either. Or if I show up and I've only put a half hearted effort into the homework, well then the group says, oh, that's okay here we just kind of get a little bit done and show up and shoot the breeze the rest of the time. So really it is as a leader, no matter where I'm at in my process or journey, that I'm modeling what I want to see in the group and not expecting other people to do things that I'm not doing. So that'd be something I'd really watch for.

Yeah, I think trusting the process, also trusting the material. Just stick to the material. I mean, if a lot of times I'll notice that whether it's in a counseling session or in a group, that will kind of jump ahead and somebody will bring up an issue and we'll kind of start dialoguing about it and we'll spend some time talking about it. And then once we actually get into the material, we'll realize that all of the answers that we really were trying to find were already written down in their book.

Yeah.

And so if we just will stick to and trust the material, trust the process, then there's. The stuff is going to happen. I mean, if they, if they are willing to do this, that's part of why this is such a task oriented recovery process. That if they do these tasks that they will experience progress. And when we begin to move away from that and get a little bit anxious, oh, is this working? Is this not working? Then we forget. Well, no, this is a tried and true and tested process and just stick to it and it'll work. We'll get there. So what sort of support is offered for group leaders out there that are working with groups? And they have some people that, whether we want to call them difficult or challenging or whatever else, but what are some resources we have for those leaders? Facilitators?

Yeah, that's a great question, Bob. For pretty much all of our groups, we have a leader's guide. And that's something I'd encourage people to pick up if you've never walked through, because it does give you some pointers of what to look for in every lesson, additional resources, other ideas that you could bring into the group. So that'd be something to pick up for you or your church. Just to make sure every group leader has access to that. It's not something every person in the group needs, but for sure that the leader has been able to have access to that. And also something that, I mean, this seems very common sense, but we hear all the time that it's not happening. Making sure you and the whole group have read the introduction to the workbooks. I know that sounds basic, but we do hear all the time of groups that they just jump in on lesson one and they're off and running and then problems come up and it's like, did you read the introduction? Because that's in there. Like, oh, no. We just Jumped in and kind of hoped people read that. So the introduction sets up the group. It talks about the guidelines and the covenant to contend and your commitment to change and all the things you're going to do in the group get introduced in the introduction. So make sure as a group, you're using that. And then also one of the things we've put in place is a system of experienced group leaders called regional group leaders that are in your area, your part of the country, wherever you're at, that have led a number of groups in their church. And they're there to just be a sounding board when these situations come up. They can explain what's worked in their groups, what they've found effective, and so they're a great place to turn. And then also we have our international group leaders for men and women, Rich Moore and Ashley Jamison, that they're kind of the authority, if you will, that when issues come through our regional group leaders, they're like, wow, this is something we haven't really seen. Or what would you say? We are able to provide the answers that Pure Desire has found effective and that have been our best practices. And so there's a number of layers there. So I always start with the material itself. Say, make sure you're using the tools the way they're intended. Then you're having problems, reach out to your regional group leader that really is there to mentor and coach you. And if needed, you know, reach out to Pure Desire and let us see how we can help in your situation. And then the other thing we always like to bring up too, one of the things that makes Pure Desire groups unique is that they are not necessarily Pure Desire groups. And what I mean by that is you're not accountable as a group to us at Pure Desire. You're accountable to your local church. And so when you're having issues in the group, you don't want to just jump right to a let's call Pure Desire and see what they'd say. Really, your first step should always be, I need to go talk to my pastor. I need to talk to my ministry leader who's ever over me. Because so many of the issues aren't really group issue or Pure Desire issue. They can be a local church issue where it's people dynamics and this person is difficult and the whole church knows they're difficult. And so rather than pulling Pure Desire in to try to fix your difficult person issue, it really may be a local thing where your church is aware of it and can provide some help or resources, because that that person that's maybe challenging your group isn't there in isolation. They're involved in relationship and community, other places in your church. And so the more you can handle things within that structure, the healthier the group's going to be. Because then they're not this outside entity meeting in your building. They're a part of the church culture and system that are being created right there. So make sure you also think about that angle. Is, is this even something that needs to go through pure desire or is this a local church issue?

Another thing that we do is we offer counseling. We have clinicians on staff that deal specifically with sex addiction. And so as a group leader, facilitator, even group member, if you find that there are members in your group who are struggling or are not experiencing the freedom or healing that you feel like should be taking place with their level of investment or commitment, then maybe counseling is what they need to do. We see that 30% of people in groups need some form of counseling. And so just know that we offer that as another tool.

We have a resource on our website that's called when to refer. So a group leader could look at that and it has, I think it's nine or ten things that they could just look down a checklist to see is this happening in a group member? And I should probably refer them to counseling. And I would encourage that. That's not failure of the group if you have to refer someone to counseling. And that doesn't mean that person's especially bad, so they need counseling. It's just facing a reality of sometimes our issues are deep rooted or have been long standing or connected to past trauma that it's really hard to get at the root of them in a group session. And so that counseling resource is just an added benefit. It's not a failure of your group or you as a leader in any way. So just being able to look at a document like that, when to refer. And if you see, wow, going back to Joe, Joe's got five of these things happening in his life. I think I should refer Joe to some counseling. That's a healthy step. That's not a negative. And so if you can help Joe see that this would be a healthy step in your life, that may be one of the best things you could do for a challenging group member.

Yeah. And I think even with that statistic of 30%, I mean, it's kind of like it'd be like going to see a doctor. Like there's a lot of people that need to go see a doctor today because they've got some acute issues. But 100% of people really would benefit from going to see a doctor sometime soon.

Yeah.

And with counseling, I think it's the same way. I mean, yeah, maybe there's 30% that there's some acute issues that they need to go see a counselor like now to help them process through this stuff. But the reality is that 100% of people would benefit from going and talking through just life with somebody who is skilled and trained and has the tools to help them process through these things.

Well, how great is it to go in for a physical and have the doctor say, you're doing well, everything looks good. And it's like, well, great. I just wanted to check in. And that can be what a counseling session is like for some people. It's checking in on, here's the steps I'm taking, here's what's going on, and letting someone who deals with this all the time tell you if you're on the right track or where they'd make adjustments, and if they say you're doing everything I'd recommend, well, great. That doesn't mean you wasted your time. You got affirmed in the steps you're taking. And that can really be an encouragement in your process.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, guys, this has been great. I mean, I feel like it's something that a lot of people, whether you're a group leader or facilitator or just a group member, that this is going to be really beneficial and helpful. So with anybody out there who's listening, who maybe is either knows they're a difficult group member or is just a regular group member who sees there are difficult people in their group, or maybe you're a facilitator.

What.

What would you guys say to anybody out there listening who is in those situations?

I would say just to remember that the reason that anybody comes into a group is because there's brokenness in their life. And if we are surprised when people start to act like broken people, then we're missing the point. The whole reason that we come to Jesus is because we need Jesus. The reason that we come to pure desire is because there have been some symptoms of brokenness in our life that have just shown up as sex addiction or something else. And so the reason that any of us are sitting in that group is because we've acknowledged that we don't have it all together and that there's stuff that isn't going right and that we need help. And so when people start to act like they need Help difficult group members. They're not difficult because God made them that way. God didn't say, I'm going to throw a little bit extra salt in this one just to make them a little bit screwy. Like, they're there because they've experienced pain and that pain has left a mark on their life and they need help working through it. If they're not getting their work done, it's because of brokenness. If they're not showing up on time, it's because of brokenness. If they're giving unwanted feedback, if they're cussing at other people, I mean, whatever it is, like it's because of brokenness. Some of that brokenness may mean, hey, we're gonna have to ask you to step out for a little bit, go get some counseling, reevaluate things, that's fine. But to remember that they are not the enemy, that anything that comes up that is challenging, it's simply because there's brokenness in their life and they need help working through it. Sometimes that's a venue for it, sometimes it's not.

Yeah, I think that's great, Bob, that we're all unhealthy and that's why we're there, because we're dealing with unhealth and that'll be messy. I think my final encouragement would be simply to say stay humble. That whether we are working on five years of freedom and sobriety, we need to stay humble. That I can still learn, I can still grow, God still wants to show me things. I still can work on areas of change in my life, or maybe working on five hours of sobriety. And we're relapsing a lot. We've got to be humble enough to say, I don't know all the answers. I don't know the way out of this. I've got to trust the process. I've got to make my life open to other men or women. That's really scary and intimidating. I don't like it. But I have to stay humble also. And so whether you're at the five hour mark or five years or somewhere, you know, more or less or in between, humility, I think is really what makes the difference between change and someone that just stays stuck in their rhythm.

Yeah, yeah. And just finally, for me, I just think just be focused on you. I mean, I think that you need to take the pressure off. Stop putting the responsibility of your group members on yourself, but be there for your own health. And in the midst of you pouring in and pushing into your own health, you're gonna see that other people will benefit from that as well. So just definitely be pushing in and make sure to work on yourself first. Fellas. This was good, some good stuff. I think, you know, we've all experienced this. We've been in groups, we've been facilitators, we've been maybe those difficult group members at certain times or seasons in our life. And so thanks for just giving insight and perspective. I appreciate you guys.

Glad to be here.

So we know that this is a very real reality and we all want to handle it the best way possible. And difficult group members and group meetings, look, they're going to happen. Don't give up. Don't stress out. You need to be patient, you need to be gracious as you join these other men and women on their journey to healing and to freedom. Just know that you're on that journey with them. So it's a beautiful privilege, really, to be a part of all of us. So just to really remain there, remain in that place. So thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social media. EaredesirePDMI. Once again, that's EaredesirePDMI. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey to pursue.