037 - FAQ #3

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here with my co host, as always, Nick Stumbo.

Hey, want to give a shout out to our listeners in western Ohio and eastern Illinois? We are big there, Trevor. We are pretty exciting stuff.

We are again, it was a little creepy when people walk up to you and say, hey, I know all about you and you've never been to Ohio in your life.

Yeah, I know your voice.

Shout out to you. We like you, though. We like you. It took a few minutes, but we like you.

That was really fun.

And we have today with us, Heather Kolb. Welcome back, Heather.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Cool. Well, today's episode will be FAQ number three. So frequently Asked Questions number three, where we're gonna dive into questions that we really get a lot. And you know, it's something that's just interesting about our ministry. We always get questions and all different kinds of questions. And you know, a lot of questions we do get, we get at events and we don't always have time to address those questions directly or spend enough time. And so really that's why we're doing these episodes is to just offer a little bit of. Just a little bit of time, really giving time to these questions, being able to really jump through these and give really any answers that we can think of. And hopefully these are helpful. So we will continue to do these episodes and hope that we can answer any of the questions out there. So let's just jump in with this. This is one that we got at a recent event. And Heather, we'll go to you on this one. It's a little bit about the br. So when it comes to the neurochemistry of the brain, why is masturbation alone? Why is that harmful?

So that's an excellent question. People don't really understand what's happening in the brain when it comes to masturbation. And one of the things that is definitely at play is that they are basically artificially stimulating the production of dopamine. And dopamine then is going to. The dopamine pathway is going to then dump all of that excess dopamine into the prefrontal cortex, which is instrumental in decision making, planning, and self control. And it also is one of the things that really, when we increase the amount of dopamine in the brain, it decreases our Ability to function normally. And so it really is, simply put, it's harmful because it's inhibiting our brain function overall.

And it also. Doesn't it bond. There's a chemical that's released in our brain, too. That's a bonding chemical is right there is.

And that is when people achieve orgasm through masturbation, that, especially with men, they produce excess levels of vasopressin. For women, they produce excess levels of oxytocin, which really is our bonding hormone. And so whatever they're masturbating to is what their brain is bonding to.

And I just want to apologize to anyone that's listening to this episode on their way to work in the morning and didn't expect to hear masturbation in the first two minutes. Yeah, but I think it's great about an FAQ session like this is we want to deal with real stuff. And, you know, I know in my experience and the experience for thousands of others as we battled through sexual addiction or, you know, a history or a pattern of masturbation, we had that experience of what was happening chemically. We just didn't know how to describe it, that there was something in our lives that we found we wanted more. We craved it, but the more we gave into it, the less satisfying it was. And it became this vicious cycle of less and less satisfaction, higher and higher need. And that's, as Ted Roberts says, you know, that's the definition of insanity and craziness that perpetuates this cycle in our lives. And I think one of the dangers we run into in our thinking, where this brain science is so helpful to keep in mind and help us overcome, is we think of whether it's masturbation or looking at pornography or acting out sexually, we think of it like a need or a desire that if I could just fill it, it would go away. You know, it's like an itch that if I just scratch it, it'll get better. But just like most things that itch, or a better way to think of it, is it's an appetite that when we give into an appetite, it doesn't get. It might be satisfied for the moment, but it grows. And the more you feed an appetite, the bigger it gets, the more you scratch that bug bite, the worse it feels. And we need to realize that chemically, that's what's actually happening in our brains. And. And it's a system that is unsustainable and is going to lead to unhealth by its very nature. And so if we can recognize that because I do think even in Christian circles there's a growing idea of, well, masturbation is just a physical thing, it's just bodily, just a release. Yeah. So long as you're not viewing something sinful or inappropriate, that's okay. But the brain science would say no, you're creating a system that's going to work against you whether you're single or married because you're creating a desire that you cannot sustain or fulfill.

Yeah, well, and I always, it just seemed to think of it this way, is that if you are doing something really just for yourself, I mean, if you look at how God set up sex and God set up that, that marital intimacy inside of the marriage context is that it's supposed to be something that you're serving someone else with. And at that point in that moment, if you're masturbating, you're serving yourself. I mean, and so I just don't think it can be done in a way that isn't selfish or isn't self centered. And so even on a, on a moral level, I think we can see that there are issues with it too.

Yeah. Masturbation reinforces an idea that sex is about my pleasure and that the definition of sex is if I climax. And in a selfish world that makes sense. But in a selfless marriage, which God calls us to, that's going to get really confusing. And I think that was my experience for 10 years, is that I thought, hey, our sex life was great because I would climax and that's what sex meant. And my wife was feeling like sex is so, so because it brings us together. But I don't get a whole lot out of it. And I didn't even have the background, you know, I didn't have mentors or someone coach me up in my thinking, to realize you're there for her and for her to know she's there for me because that's the kind of fulfilling relationship God designed us to have.

That's good.

So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about one of the ways that churches are really being introduced to battling for purity, helping people walk in integrity. And we've seen that the conquer series, the 10 week DVD curriculum is a great way to start that conversation in your church, particularly when maybe you haven't talked much about sexual addiction. So what are ways that we have seen to get buy in when launching the Conquer series? Because in many environments, many churches, that's still kind of a taboo topic. And no matter what form it comes in, it can be challenging to Start. So what are ways to get a church to get leaders, to get people to buy into this idea?

Okay, so I'm just going to make the disclaimer up front that I didn't think these were going to work when I tried these, but I saw that there was fruit from a couple different approaches we took. So when I was at my previous church and we were starting groups, the first thing that I did was we tried to just package it as, do you want some tips, some tools, some really, some content to help you figure out how to better be pure? And so it really was more of. And I've said this a few times on the podcast that I really just picked 12 guys that I saw that would be consistent. They would commit to this. They would do it. Originally it was the six week Conquer series when we started. And I figured, you know, just open it up and say, hey, guys, we're looking at really a study on purity, a study on how to better not be sexually broken anymore. And I found that guys were a lot more open to that rather than, hey, if you're struggling with sex addiction, there's a signup sheet in the back at our welcome center that everyone can see you at. You should go sign up. That's not a good approach. So really the first one is just offering it as, do you want to learn how to be more pure? Do you want to get equipping or get tools for it? And then, you know, more specifically, because of my context, when I was at the church, I was a youth pastor. And so I had a lot of dads who would come to me often, you know, completely unattached to anything that we were doing pure desire at the church that would say, hey, my son's struggling with this, my son's struggling with that. My daughter's been doing this, my daughter's been doing that. And it's like, what do you do? And at that moment it was like, you know, we do have the Conquer series starting in a couple weeks, and this may be something that helps give you some tools or a toolkit or a tool belt to help your kids, knowing that when they would go, they also would learn stuff. But really kind of going at that parental side where it's like, hey, if you want to help your kids, this is going to be another beneficial thing for you. And so those are just two simple ways that I tried at our last church.

Yeah, I know we have a number of parents that watch the series together, even if their church isn't, because they know the value it'll bring to them in their home.

So we've even heard that some larger churches have offered the Conquer series for their entire church. And so they invite, you know, men and women and teens, you know, and parents. And then even in the discussion time, they break it up so that men have questions just with men, women with just women, and even teens separated by gender as well. But there really is a lot of applications for the Conquer series, where you could host just one evening where you're just showing it to parents of teens, or you just show it with your youth group, or you just show it to adult men and women. And so there's a lot of approaches that you can take. And really the goal is to encourage sexual purity, not to say, oh, if you're struggling in this area, come and watch this DVD series.

Yeah, I think you have to be aware of what are the things we can do to destigmatize the shame, to take it out of the taboo category. And even for churches that maybe think like, oh, that's not taboo here. We talk about sex all the time, we preach about it, we have series on it. But if it's mostly been from the platform down, you need to recognize there's still a really high potential for shame. Because when we preach on sex in the church, when we preach on purity and pornography and people go home and try harder to fix it because now they're convicted and they want to be free and pure, if there's not a well established system of groups where they can go and actually get free, then they've been trying harder and failing. And even though you quote, unquote, talk about it a lot, there may be still a large percentage of people in the church that feel shameful that they haven't fixed it, they haven't gotten their act together. And I think that's what the Conquer series does, is it provides an avenue where you can stand up and say, this is for all of us. Because all of us have sexual brokenness in our history. And whether it's a current struggle or something from our past, something we've dealt with, we need to be educated because we can see what's happening in the world around us. We can see our cultures going crazy. And what if God equipped us to have the answer and solution? So come and learn. Come and be trained. When I was a pastor, I would say I hope every single man in our church will see this, because even if it's not our struggle, we have sons, we have brothers, we have friends, we have co workers, we have wives, and God wants to use us to help them. And just that kind of language to say, we're going to deal with this together. Then what you get is a group of people that gather, not because they're the few souls willing to admit they've got a problem, but you're gathering together a group that feels like, we're going to go after this. We're on this.

It creates a ministry together.

Yeah, we've got a purpose that's bigger than us, and we can see the world needs it. Well, now people feel motivated to go, not just because of their guilt and shame, but because they want to be a part of what God's doing in your church. And I think that becomes exciting. And then along the way, they will deal with their own guilt or shame or issues. And many people that think they have dealt with it will go through the Conquer series and realize, you know, I haven't dealt with this as much as I thought I have. There's still, if I'm being totally honest, stuff that creeps up and it's. It's time to deal. And then I think because you've created the environment, they actually have the space to do that hard work, and they're.

Going to get hit with a fire hydrant full of information, and it's going to be, in some ways and in the best way, overwhelming, where it's like, wow, there's so much more to this. So it really ends up opening a door for further communication. And that's really a huge benefit we see from the Conquer series.

So at Pure Desire and in our curriculum, we often refer to the father wound and especially its correlation to addictive behavior. So what is it that we're talking about?

I think that's a great question, Heather. And it's something for me that actually initially with Pure Desire was kind of a turn off because I felt like pop psychology, everyone wants to blame it on your dad, and, you know, boohoo, all these things happen. And I felt I had a great dad. We have a great relationship. He was a pastor. There was no abuse. And it was like, come on. That just. It felt almost put on or artificial, like a scapegoat.

You're looking for escape.

Yeah, but, you know, my counselor was wise enough to handle my skepticism and say, well, just lean into it, answer the questions, do the work, see what you think. And then I've shared this on the podcast before, so I won't tell the whole story, but just to realize there was a father wound in my life, not because my dad was an evil man that tried to create it. But because of the reality that my dad was a human being that was sinful. And when we're raised by sinful parents, we've got to look at and recognize the ways that their sinfulness created wounds or needs in us. Now some people listening have had very poor examples of fathers that maybe in intentional ways created wounds and those are easier to see. But I would guess the majority of people listening had fairly stable good homes and they may felt like I did that well, what father wound? So what we're trying to do is go back and look at in our, in our growing up years because we know from science that the brain does the vast majority of its development in those first five years, which is fascinating when you realize that's also where we have the fewest memories of. So we're looking at our family system and trying to have an honest assessment of what kind of messages did I take on about my value, my worth and my identity through my father. Because God really designed us in a healthy family system to learn those things from our dads. So for, for young men, we're looking at our dads as an example of what it means to be a man. And so if we didn't have a father figure, if the dad left the home, the way that communicates our value or worth by the absence. Because I've had guys say to me like, oh, I never knew my dad, I can't have a father wound. I was like, no, that's there. That's why you have a father wound. Because you didn't have what God designed your brain to need. And maybe that role was filled by another, an uncle or a grandpa or someone that was the dad in your life or maybe not. But you still need to realize I've got wounds because of what I didn't have. For others of us, our story was more about, you know, feeling if our dad was too busy to be at games, feeling like we weren't valuable if we felt like we didn't live up to his expectations, if we had a really strict dad, maybe feeling like we were a bad kid. And the challenge I think to it also is we might be able to explain how we felt as an adult and think, well, I don't have any wound. But the issue is how did it feel to our 4 year old brain? What were we learning as a 6 year old or a 10 year old when our dad said or did something or didn't do something that would have been helpful? What did we begin to believe about ourselves? And that's also important. And Heather can speak more to this. But for women, I think it's God's design that women look to a father to understand their beauty, their worth, and how they should be treated by men. And so if there were issues in that area, they may grow up with significant needs that aren't being met because they have a father wound. So we're just trying to help people look at their family of origin to see that God designed us as human beings to learn from our dads, but also to, in humility, be able to say, my dad wasn't perfect. And if he wasn't perfect, what did that do to my life that's changed the way I view myself or the world in an unhealthy way, and how can I reclaim it? And in the end, the great thing I found is it's actually really improved my relationship with my dad. And I'm so proud of him because of his humility to be able to say, I want to learn, Even as a 65 year old, to say, I want to grow and do even better. And so I'm not mad at him. I was never angry. But we've actually been able to talk through a lot of these things. And it's like, how cool is that? That our relationship just gets stronger and stronger as I'm an adult man and that's the opportunity that's there. So I guess I'd say too, for people listening, if you are the father figure in someone's life, you're the dad to realize you may not do it perfect because you are a sinner, you.

Will not do it perfect.

And that's okay. But there are opportunities all along the way to keep working on that relationship.

Yeah. So let me just ask this, and this is kind of off the top. Why is there a father wound but not a mother wound? Why is that?

Well, there could be a mother wound, but it seems as though because of the influence that a father has in a child's life and the role that they play in developing very specific things in that child, that it becomes almost sometimes more detrimental than a mother wound. Because God designed when setting up the structure of the family, that moms meet certain needs for kids and dads meet other needs for kids. And so it could be either or both.

Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, well, let's shift gears again. So oftentimes in group, during recovery, it becomes really, really easy. Actually, let me stop right now and just say this was someone who sent this question in. They respond, responded to our faq and sent in a question.

Fantastic.

So you know who you are. From Winona, we met at the pdu. Thanks for this question. So the question that was sent in, oftentimes in group during recovery, it becomes easy to swap one addiction for another. So how do we combat that? How do we be more aware of that?

So this is a great question. And really it boils down to somebody not just struggling with one addiction, but really having more of an addictive prone personality. In the clinical setting we call this comorbidity where they have big word.

That's a scary word.

It is a scary word.

We'll spell it out in the show notes.

So everyone knows it's really one of those words that just means that you have more than one addiction that exists at the same time. And we see this a lot in addiction recovery in that somebody may quickly gain sobriety from masturbation and pornography, but then they might develop something new like gambling or eating or gaming or some other type of addiction. And it really is one of the reasons why addiction recovery takes so long because it's not that it's going to take you a long time to get over your main addictive behavior, but you're going to find that you're going to swap out addictions. And so that's what's going to take. The time is really getting to the core of why you have an addictive prone personality to begin with.

Yeah, we're not just battling what is the addiction, but what am I trying to fill? Why do I have it? And so I remember Ted Roberts saying to me that we're all meant to be addicted to Jesus, but we've learned to be addicted to something else. And so it's asking ourselves the question, what is it that these other things provide for me that I'm not learning to get from my relationship with Christ? And so if we're battling with feeling not good enough, well, pornography can make us feel good enough, but so can being an exercise freak. So can eating comfort food, so can drinking alcohol. Like all kinds of addictions, all great.

Things, all great things.

Big battles to face there. They can all kind of answer the question of, well, this makes me feel good for a moment. And so what Heather says is getting at that underlying false belief or thought process and just being aware that, well, when I deal with the sexual addiction piece, that need to feel good enough might not just automatically be dealt with. So it's going to try to find other ways. So it is a deep process. And it's why when we tell people it may be a two to five year process. It's not just two to five years to stop a behavior. It's to get at those deeper underlying issues that are causing addiction. And that's why we talk to a lot of people about going through their material a couple of times. We know it's a long process and it. There may be an eagerness to get out of group and be quote, unquote done. But that first time through is often about managing the behavior and getting it under control. It may be the second or third time through that's really getting at those underlying issues of what. What need am I trying to meet in an illegitimate way?

So a principle I discovered recently that I've been trying to put into practice, definitely not very good at it. But is the idea of asking the question, is this habit, is this action, is this thing that I'm doing, is it pushing me into community, or is it pulling me away from community? Practical example, the other day was just having a really rough day at home. And you know, my wife is like, hey, why don't you just go see a movie? Just go see a movie. And movies for me are one of those things that fill me up. Now at first that can seem like I'm isolating, that could see that I'm. That could seem like I'm pulling away from community. But really what I'm doing is I'm taking, not isolation, but I'm trying to take time. Just a way for self care. And that is going to end up in the end pushing me into community more. So if I'm able to go kind of escape, unwind, relax, not have all this stuff going on in my head, in my heart, and just unplug for a little bit, if I know that that is going to help me later push into community further, then that for me is a good habit. That's something that's healthy. We talked about that a few episodes ago when we're talking about healthy habits. But just to identify if it's something that when I continue to do it, if I see less and less people around me, if I see less and less community in the culture that I run with, then maybe that is something that's becoming more of an addiction or a secondary comorbidity, something like that. So that's just a principle I've been thinking through and would encourage other people to maybe ask that question.

Well, that goes with something Bob Vandermeer, one of our speakers and clinicians, said at a recent event that he said one way to measure this is when you go and do that activity to determine, am I isolating and moving towards addiction, or is it healthy and helping me regain some stability? He said, just ask yourself, what kind of a person am I when I come back from that? Am I moving towards health or unhealth? So if I go off in the garage and swing a hammer and work on a project, and I'm just isolating and angry, and I come back in the house and I'm yelling at kids.

Like, if you come back with the hammer, that's probably the problem.

Yeah. But if engaging in a hobby for an hour and just letting my mind kind of unwind on that, and I come back in and I'm a better dad, I'm more relational. I'm more open, like, oh, well, that's part of my health. So I just thought that was really a helpful comment he made to kind of assess, is this part of my addictive personality or is it part of coming out of my struggle?

Yeah.

Okay, next question here. So we often hear that men struggle more with sex and porn addiction, although we know that women deal with pornography also. It's growing faster among women than men. But we hear that women tend to have more of a love addiction. Is it possible, though, for a man to have a love addiction?

Practically, yes, because I know that I have a love addiction. Just recently, actually, in an event, I was encouraged by Ashley Jamison. Hey, you should fill out the love addiction evaluation. Just see where you're at. And I scored really, really high on it. And I was like, huh, Okay, I guess I am. But the more I think about it, I see that in my. In my addiction to pornography or in my sex addiction, it was always fueled by being accepted and by being loved and being affirmed. And that is tending more to be more for a love addiction. And so it is something that primarily in our resources and previously in our communication, that it was thought of to be more of a female thing and not a male thing. But we're seeing that both genders really can.

And even when it comes to females who struggle with love addiction, a lot of times a woman will use sex or act out sexually to still feel loved. Even though it isn't a sex addiction, it is still just a love addiction. And I think the same applies with men, is that they might use sex as a means to get what they really want, which is relationship and connection, which is really more of a love addiction.

And for me, the reason that I've come to this point, where I understand it is a love addiction, is that my acting out or my addiction, usually the playing field for that was in relationship. It wasn't in isolation with pornography, though. That was an added, you know, element to it really in the darker years of my addiction. But really it was all fueled and all started with where I was at in my relationships. And I was the person who always had a relationship. I never went more than six months without another girlfriend or another relationship. And so for me, that's kind of just practically how I saw or I came to this conclusion that it is a love addiction for me.

Well, for a lot of people, they start struggling with sexual things in their teenage years when there's all kinds of hormones and sexual discovery going on and the opposite sex. And so it can often start with that visual draw. But as we go into adulthood and it really gets stuck in our lives, it becomes far more about what is it making us feel. But because of where it started. And I hear this often from guys, we think, well, it's just because I'm attracted to women or those pictures or those videos. And we think it's still just an image thing, but under it, why it's gotten so deep rooted is it's a love thing. It's an emotional connection. And when we start to unearth that, that it's more than what you're seeing. It's more than a draw to someone you find attractive. It's what it's making you feel. I think that really is where we start to get some keys for change.

That's good.

So let's talk about couples for just a minute. So we have many couples who go through the healing process, but how does a couple know that they need to get counseling? That that really would be their next best step?

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things we look for in relationships when we encourage a couple towards counseling. And I would just start by saying we want every person listening and couple to know that pursuing counseling is not shameful or is not admission of defeat. And I know I grew up in a very traditional kind of conservative Christian home and church environment where I don't know that anyone ever said this, but I know they looked at counseling like that was for really bad people that were really messed up. And so if you went to counseling, it'd be like, oh my, did you hear so and so is going to counseling? And it'd be brought up like this real negative.

It's like middle school a little bit.

Yeah. Which is. It's unfortunate because as we have, you know, a team of counselors here we see counseling is actually a declaration of health. It's like recognizing I don't have what I need to get healthy. And who of us does truly have everything we need to get healthy by ourselves. And so I would just start there to ask a person, do you have the same kind of bent away from counseling that I would have to say, well, that's like admitting defeat. And it's like, no, that's a really, really good thing. So if you're at a place you think you might need counseling and you're willing to admit it, that's a good place to be. Some things to look for is if a couple is really stuck in anger, that they're trying to talk through their issues and everyone ends in a blow up or a fight, you're gonna need some outside help to create that safe space, neutral zone.

You need a referee.

Yeah, how do we talk without exploding in anger? So that's one thing to look for. A second thing is just if they're stuck in the same thing, if they're saying to themselves one another, this is the same fight we've had every week for the last 52 weeks, and it's not getting anywhere. So maybe they've figured out their way to resolve it, which is usually we fight and argue about it and then ignore it and hope it goes well away. If you're just spinning your wheels in any issue, I mean, whether it's about sexuality or in laws or money, a counselor brings that perspective of new things to try, opens the conversation up so you're actually moving forward. So that's the second thing I'd look for. And then the third thing is really just to assess if either spouse has experienced significant trauma in their life. That trauma could be from childhood, family of origin, or that trauma could be in the marriage. So typically, if there's been any level of abuse, whether physical or emotional, that's gonna be hard to work through without counseling help. So when there's trauma present, that'd be the third main thing to look for in considering counseling.

Can there be significant trauma, though that isn't a form of abuse? Like, can someone still, maybe, you know, culturally you look at trauma and it's not as big, like maybe, you know, let's say, for example, I had a parent who didn't show up to any of my sporting events. That could be significant trauma for me, you know, and then someone else could be, you know, molested or sexually abused, and that be significantly traumatic for them. At what point does it become significant enough trauma to know that you need counseling.

Well, you could take the trauma checklist that's in a lot of our resources, and that's just kind of a simple 25 yes, no question thing. But I think what you're trying to realize is if the conversation is always taking you to something outside the room, if your spouse always makes you feel like you did when you were home as a little kid, if you can't help but see your wife reminds you of your mom, where you're just always significantly traumatic.

Yeah, okay, got it.

But what I'm saying is you're not really able to deal with the problem that's in the room because it's attached to something much deeper.

Gotcha.

And you're exactly right, Trevor. It doesn't have to be abuse. It could be abandonment. It could be just growing up in a very strict environment without relationship, the ways you were punished. I mean, there's so many things that create trauma. And so it's just asking yourself the question, is there something preventing me from being fully present in the room and dealing with this situation. Because you can't solve a problem in your marriage if it's connected back to something in your past. You have to deal with that also to solve what's in your marriage.

Not to quote Bob Vandermeer again, but I think I, well, do like that. Recently, I heard him talk about the idea of going to the doctor, that some of us need to go to the doctor today. We really need to go and get checked out, try to figure out where we're at. But then some of us or the rest of us maybe that don't need to go today, eventually need to go. Like, we need to get checkups. We need to learn where we're at, have someone from the outside look at us and say, you know this, like, you're either you're doing okay, like, you're doing all right, you're making subtraction, you're moving forward. Or maybe I change this or change that. And I really appreciated that because he's really communicating that everybody at some point needs, whether it's. It's clinical or biblical counseling or it's just a mentor, someone who's speaking into your life or to your marriage. We all need that. We all need someone to come alongside and help us kind of sift through the messiness of where we're at and put together the puzzle pieces.

Well, I am a huge fan of counseling. I think that it's probably one of the best things a person could ever do for themselves. And going back to Your question about trauma is to remember that trauma shows up in our lives in various forms at various stages. I remember one woman telling me that she didn't really experience any trauma in her childhood, but as an adult woman, she was having a conversation with her mother, and her mother made just a general statement of, well, we really didn't ever want kids. We just had you guys, because it was what everybody was doing. And even as an adult woman, those feelings of never being wanted were traumatic for her, and she had to go through that even as an adult. And so our trauma is significant, and it's significant to us. And if it ends up being a roadblock that is really inhibiting our healing, then it's definitely something to take a closer look at.

Well, and it's interesting to me, one of the paradigms we have to face with counseling is simply the expense of it. We think, oh, that's too expensive, and is it worth it? Can you really put a price tag on your soul and on that spiritual soul care? And you think about a practical thing. You talked about a doctor's visit. I think about taking my car for a checkup. Like, at 100,000 miles, I might take my car to my mechanic and pay him four or five hundred bucks just.

To give you a high five and.

Give you your keys back. Yeah. And he might switch out some spark plugs.

Right.

Fluids. And put me on my way. And it's. And I think of that as well. That's an investment in the next hundred thousand miles of my vehicle. That's worth it.

Yeah.

And if we can see that with something physical, like a vehicle, that matters really nothing to us in the scope of our life. What about our own soul? What about that kind of a checkup where someone can get under the hood, ask hard questions, look at where there's trauma or unresolved issues. In a way, do a checkup that might help us out for the next 10 years if we can just make that paradigm shift of the value it has. I think more people would be willing to walk into a counselor's office and say, hey, let's do a checkup here and make sure I'm good to go for the next hundred thousand miles.

Yeah, that's good.

Okay.

Well, I'm really excited about this next question. It's something I am interested to hear you guys feedback on. So in our material and as we're traveling around the country and putting on events, we talk about the effects. And Heather, you speak to this specifically in your sessions at our Pure Desire University event. The effects that we have on our kids as they grow up, whether that's, you know, biologically, whether it's, you know, the neurochemistry, the brain function. But what if our kids are already grown? So we know that we affect them in their early developmental years, but what happens if our kids are already grown up? What can we do to help shepherd and lead our adult kids in health?

So this is an interesting area because as parents, you know, we don't know what we don't know. And even if we have made some mistakes as a parent, which we all do and will continue to do, the more that we learn about ourselves and about really, even that awareness of maybe we could have done things a little bit differently. I think it's important as a parent that you have those conversations with your adult children, because one of the things that happens is that all of us tend to parent the way we were parented. And so if we have negatively impacted our kids, even now that they're adults, they could then be passing on some of those negative behaviors onto their kids as well. And so I think that really with that awareness comes humility and talking to your kids and being able to say, you know what? I didn't know. I didn't know how this would affect you, and I'm so sorry, and how can we make this right? And how can we, you know, work toward a healthier relationship not just for today, but even in our future? And really, it does come from that awareness piece and just being open and vulnerable with your adult kids. They'll appreciate it.

Yeah, I think of the word humility. Just that openness of, hey, what do we need to talk about? And I shared a little bit about my dad earlier in this podcast. I remember when I was about 17, we were out hunting and he asked one of those questions like, hey, is there anything I've done as a dad that hurt you? Or I could have done better. And as a 17 year old kid, I remember, like, I don't know, like there was nothing that really came to mind. And we. I just kind of dismissed it like, no, you're great, everything's fine. And it could have been easy for my dad to feel like, well, I asked that question, we're good to go. I got him to 18 and he's off on his own. So to have, as I mentioned, this year I was out hunting with him at 39, and he says, again, you know, were there things I could have improved on? And there were a few things that I had realized over the last few years and I didn't know how to bring them up. And. And because he had the humility to open that door, the conversation we were able to have, that, I don't know, we could have had any other way. You know, if I bring it up, it feels accusatory. It feels like I'm shaming. And I didn't want to hurt my dad unnecessarily because I'm. I mean, I'm. I don't live by him. And so we don't get to see each other that much. Our relationship's great, and it'd be like, well, why complicate it by bringing these things up? But his humility to ask that and then to listen and to let me say some things and to not be defensive or explain it away, to actually have him say, oh, I could totally see that, or, wow, I knew I did that to your mom. I never knew I did that to you as kids. Like, wow, that was so healing. And so I tell that story. For parents to realize, maybe you had some great conversations when they were 16 or even 26, but now they're 36 or 46, and you feel like your job's done. The ways you can open the door to say, what could we have done better? What messages did I communicate to you that you've had to battle against? How can I be a part of your health now and not just perpetuate what's happened? Because I think the other thing we don't realize when our kids are adults is that when we are together, we still will treat them some of the ways we did as they were kids. And I'll hear Ted and Diane Roberts talk about that a lot, how people go home and they feel 13 again. Some of that is the way their parents still treat them, like they're 13, and they don't realize it. So that'd be my final encouragement to parents, is if you've got adult children, when they come to your home, be bold enough to ask them, say, when you're here, how do I make you feel? Do I treat you like an adult with kids and responsibilities that I love and trust? Or do I make you feel like a little kid that I'm parenting? And then listen and be willing to adjust when they are honest with you. Because I think many kids will say, you know what? I'm here. You treat me like I'm 13 again, and I'm not.

Stop it.

So that humility, it's amazing what conversations it'll create, and letting those bring health in your relationship, that's Good.

So when we talk about experiencing freedom from addiction, what is it that we're really talking about? What is it that freedom looks like in someone's everyday life?

It's a big question.

Yeah. I think we're trying to figure out how do I know if I'm making progress? And one of the things that we try to help people see is freedom doesn't mean you become superhuman sometimes. I think that's our expectation that to be free of sexual addiction and pornography also means I will never lust again. I'll never be attracted to someone like that. I can somehow so totally heal my brain. And that'd be awesome if you could. But I would say both experientially and what I see in God's word is we are people in process. That sanctification is continuing from now until eternity. And I look forward to the day I walk into eternity and my brain is totally whole and holy. But right now, there is a battle. And so what I think freedom looks like is knowing how to win the battle without just white knuckling it. You know, a phrase we've used. And I'm not just trying harder to avoid all the stuff in the world, but I actually know the healthy rhythms, that when I feel the temptation, when I feel the trigger, I know where to go with it. I have community that I can go to. I have healthy boundaries that keep me in a safe place. And I think that's freedom. That I know I'm not susceptible to all those things. I'm going to experience them. I'm still going to be a man or for those who are listening, that I'm still going to be a woman that has needs and desires. And when I'm in a low place, I'll be attracted to things I know I shouldn't be. But that's part of the human experience. And we want to make sure we don't guilt ourselves over being human. What we want to focus on is, what do I do with those emotions? What do I do with those triggers? What do I do with those temptations? And so freedom looks like having a responsible way to deal with the triggers, the temptations, and the desires. And then I would add, freedom also means that if I make a mistake, I know how to deal with it appropriately. Because freedom is not perfection. Because that word perfection feels again, like if someone might feel like if I had a lustful thought that cropped up in my mind, I'm not free.

Yeah.

Whereas you might realize I'm free because I didn't go any further with It. And I was able to call a friend and say, man, I don't know why, but this popped into my head. I've been dealing with it. And would you pray with me? Well, that's freedom. Because you're in a healthy place and in community and in humility, dealing with your sin versus acting like you have not.

Yeah. What about on this? Just the brain side of that? What does freedom look like in that?

Well, I think that it's one of those things, too, that Nick, you had mentioned earlier, that it's not just a matter of stopping a behavior, it's replacing behaviors. So we have to do that, even in our brain, when it comes to renewing our mind, is to make sure that we are moving toward health, that it's constantly something that we're engaging our brain with, activities that are healthy so that our brain is regenerating or recreating new neural pathways that are promoting our health, even at a neurological level.

I just thought of too, how in a lot of Paul's letters in the New Testament, he doesn't ever say, sin is not present. Like, as you walk with Christ. His words are to say, sin is no longer my master. And I think that's what we're looking at. Freedom means I'm not mastered by sin because it's. It's being dealt with. Is it still present? I'm still a human at times. It's present, but it's not my master.

Yeah, I used to. Or I heard this a while ago, this illustration of the idea that I used to be locked in the cage with the beast, you know, with. With Satan, with sin. I used to be locked in the cage, but now with freedom in Christ, I'm no longer in the cage, but the cage is still around. Satan can still accuse and throw slander and slurs at me all he wants. And I'm still trying to go back.

Yes, absolutely.

I have the key to go back in, but I'm also no longer bound by it, you know, so that's. You know, that's just been a really helpful one for me. And, you know, as you guys are saying that too, you know, Nick, what you were saying about how I respond, I think that's so important in really, even just my experience of freedom is looking at if I've lapsed or I've relapsed or if I've. If I've, you know, definitely taken a step back in my journey or in my recovery. I have to look at also not just what happened, but what I'm doing after that takes place, you know, and so that's something that recently I've even been experiencing as I'm learning more about what recovery looks like. As if I'm having a bad week or I'm slipping farther down the faster scale. How am I responding in those moments? Am I going back to my faster scale and looking? Am I calling a group member? Am I talking to my wife? Am I pushing into the homework? Am I pushing into reading scripture and prayer? If I'm doing those things, then I'm properly and in a healthy way responding to where I'm at on my journey. Where before if I was starting to feel negative thoughts or I was having a rough day, then I would run back to, to pornography or run back to another coping behavior and then not tell anybody about it, I would isolate. I'd go deep, deep into the dark corner of shame. And so really pay attention. And gosh, this is something. The more that I'm involved with this ministry. Self awareness is so huge. It's so huge. You have to understand where you're at in order to dictate where you're going. Like you have to. And so it's just one of those things where if you're able to look at a situation and think objectively, big picture, look at where you're going in the long run and how you're responding, it's going to set you up for success and future freedom down the road.

Yeah. And that really is the paradox of freedom. You know, go back to Paul again in the New Testament that towards the end of his life when he's been planting churches all over the world writing the Bible, he says, I am the chief of sinners. He didn't say that at the beginning of his journey, he said it at the end. It's like, was Paul sinning more? I don't think so. Is it that Paul is more aware of his sinfulness and he's humbled by it? And I think that's the paradox of freedom that the healthier we get, we actually become more aware of our sinfulness. And that can feel like, am I getting worse? Well, no, I think we're getting more self aware and just recognizing the depth of evil that exists in the human heart is scary. But that's part of how we stay free is we stay in a healthy way scared about what I'm capable of apart from Christ and apart from community. And there's a paradox there that that freedom actually may increase my sense of sinfulness, but it's because of self awareness, not because I'm sinning more.

Well, to say it simply, you're free from the power of sin, but not the presence of it. Like, it's always going to be around. And so it doesn't mean. And what we're saying right now is that it's not that you can't get free from sex addiction, from porn addiction. You can get free neurologically, biologically, you know, emotionally, spiritually, you can get free, but it's still going to be creeping in the corner. It's never going to go away.

Into a robot.

No, no. And honestly, that sounds so. Sounds so boring, guys. This, I love these episodes. These are a lot of fun. Doesn't matter if I've been having a bad day or not. Like, I just enjoy being able to sit down and go through all these different types of topics. And, you know, I learn a lot from these personally. Even just this episode has been helpful. So for any listeners really out there, we desire you to take away from these episodes as well. So a couple ways if you want to submit questions for our future FAQ episodes, they're all a couple ways you can do this. You can email your questions to infouredesire.org using the subject line PD Podcast, or you can post your question on social media using the hashtag hashtag pdfaq. So those are just a couple ways if you have questions and you really want them to get answered, we'd love to receive those and get those from you and really answer those. So, Nick, Heather, thanks a lot for your time, guys. Appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Trevor. Great job.

Yeah, this has been fun.

And thank you for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. If you like what you're hearing and want to keep up with the podcast, please subscribe. You can also rate and review our podcast and let us know how we're doing. For more information, check out our website, PureDesire.org and you can follow us on social mediauredesirepdmi. Once again, that's earedesirepdmi. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Pure Desire Podcast. For more information, check out our website, www.puredesire.org. check in each week for new content on the podcast and we pray that it will help you find hope and freedom on your journey.

To purchase.