038 - Love Addiction Pt. 1

Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast where we partner with you to bring hope and freedom on your journey to purity. Today's episode is part one of a two part series titled Love Addiction. Enjoy the podcast. Hey there. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor. And we're so thankful you're taking time out of your day to hang out with us. I'm here as always with my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Happy Friday. Wait, is it Friday yet?

Technically, right now it's not Friday.

It's Friday somewhere.

Yeah.

Wait, that's not actually true either, is it?

All of our weekend warriors just chanted with you. So. Okay, today we are joined by a couple of our favorite people, Ashley Jamison and Diane Roberts. Welcome, guys.

Thanks. Good to be with you.

Thanks for having me back again.

Yes, we'll never stop having you on, Ashley. Don't be nervous of that. We will always welcome you on the PD podcast. Okay, so we have Ashley and Diane with us to talk about love addiction. So this is something we talk a lot about at Pure Desire, but oftentimes it could be something we really misunderstand and are not able to identify in our lives. So we hope that our conversation today really is able to clear it up what it is, who struggles with it and what it looks like to address it in our lives. So guys, let's just start with this question first. How do we define and what is love addiction?

Well, again, I'm going to be giving a perspective more for women, but I think this will come up later that we do see this happening in men. And probably a better definition of love addiction is relational addiction. And rather than sexual addiction, where the pursuit is for sex, the pursuit here is for relationship. And it's a desperate attempt to satisfy a deep need to belonging. It's kind of an attachment issue. It's a pursuit and focus on relationships that become a way of avoiding medicating our pain. And it can sometimes be pursued at all cost. Where many Christians who get stuck in love addiction or relational addictions will violate their Christian values and find themselves in affairs or one night stands just to medicate that need to feel, to fill something that a void of relationships.

That's good.

You know, a follow up question to that and hopefully I'm not jumping ahead in what we're covering later. I don't think I am. But I wonder if for some listeners that are hearing this and even seeing the title love addiction, then they hear you say relationship addiction, that some people may be reacting with that idea of well, aren't we supposed to love People, aren't we supposed to have relationships? Like, isn't. Isn't that part of normal life? So how could love or relationship possibly be an addiction? So could you speak to that just a little bit between. Where's that line between, yes, love is a part of our lives, relationship is a part of our lives, but where does that become unhealthy? Because I'm guessing for some people listening, they've never thought of love or relationship as being unhealthy. Potentially, yeah.

So for me, you know, with love addiction being what I was struggling with, which I wouldn't have seen it that way, just because I tend to think of love addicts as somebody who, you know, goes from one relationship to the other, which is also true. Or can never not have a relationship or. Or starts one before the one they have is over. Those are all true as well and can be a love addiction. But with me, it didn't look like that. There was many years where I would not have a relationship, but at the same time, I was desperate for one. Almost all of my behaviors were geared towards getting one. My thought life was constant fantasy of what it would be like when I had a relationship. It was, oh, this part of my life would be so much better if I had a relationship. And so it was just this obsession, excessive thought life, even though it didn't, you know, play out in. In an actual relationship. And because I was so desperate for love, when I finally had a relationship with my husband John, he became my idol. I was just obsessed with him. And that developed new behaviors like, you know, smothering him in control and never being able to say no. Because I was so afraid of losing the relationship I fantasized about for so long. And my identity wasn't through God. It was really. Everything went through the filter of how my husband sees me and am I being the perfect wife and. And is he withdrawing and. And what am I feeling in our relationship right now? Maybe he's pulling back. And. And so it's just this obsession. I don't even know if that answered your question.

Oh, that was great.

And what was the original question?

What's wrong with relational?

Aren't we all supposed to have relationships? We're all supposed to have love.

Right? Okay. Right. Right. So. So God had to rip that away from me through John's betrayal. He had to rip that away and show me for once that my identity was not through a relationship and not through a man. And I couldn't run away from it. Cause I was in a marriage. So it wasn't like my normal relationships where I just find a new boyfriend. I had to really be faced with my addiction and how I was idolizing my husband and seeing. Seeing myself through him. And I had to really find myself in Christ separate from my husband. And that was a long process.

That's. That's where healing comes. And I know in the groups that I've led, especially with single gals, where they have to have a relationship going and they won't let go of one that's unhealthy until they have another one because they can't be without a man. So. And I think the best example in scripture is the woman at the well. And Jesus really faced her with. Without shaming her. He just faced her with the fact that you've had five husbands and the man you're now with is not your husband. He was dealing with the idol of having to have this relationship. And I love just what you said. You came to the understanding that you needed that living water just as this woman at the well because she was going from relationship after relationship and really hungering for something. And Jesus knew exactly what she was hungry for, and that was him.

So it sounds like, if I hear you ladies correct, and I'm understanding that in some ways, a love or relationship addiction can have a lot to do with codependency, the idea that where I am and where you began are muddled, and that I find my sense of value or, well being in you or in someone else, outside of who God made me to be and who God is in my life. So is that a big part of love and relationship addiction? Is that codependent behavior of defining myself through a relationship with someone else?

I think that plays a huge role in why I married an addict twice. Because once I established relationship, even though both my husbands were addicts, it was just I didn't want to lose that relationship at any cost, and I would do anything to try to repair or fix it. And so that brought out codependent behaviors, rescuing behaviors, keeping him from feeling his own consequences. I would just do anything to keep that relationship. And I think that even ignoring red flags and signs of addictive behaviors in the dating part of the relationship is what planted me in a marriage with addicts both times.

Well, and it's so interesting, too, because if you look at the culture of the church, it's almost as if you've reached the second tier of Christianity when you get married. I mean, if you read scripture, Paul makes it clear that sometimes it's almost better to not be Married and to not have that kind of relationship, you're able to minister and do more for the kingdom. And that's not to say that you can't do just as much for the kingdom when you're married. But in the church, there becomes this culture where if. If I get up and I'm in my mid-20s, late 20s, getting into my mid-30s, and I'm not married yet, usually the church thinks maybe there's something wrong or there's sin in your life, or there's an issue. And the reality is, is that kind of culture almost creates and fosters a love addiction or a skewed perspective on relationships that can lead to a love addiction. It's just so fascinating that in our own attempts to move away from idolatry, we can create cultures that foster even more idolatry when it comes to relationships.

Yeah, well, it's the old idea that I'm only complete if I'm with someone else, and culture fosters that, too. I mean, it's the whole Jerry Maguire, you complete me, and.

Which is a great movie. That's a great line.

It's a nice line. But it's actually very codependent to say, I'm not complete without someone else in my life. And I think culturally, we see that being perpetuated, and it's just a danger because of what it can suck us into and, and create unhealthy dependence on people, which does. Can end up twisting relationships in unhealthy ways. So I've, you know, I've really been looking forward to this episode because I feel like as I've gone through my own journey and been in many, many Seven Pillars groups and worked with a lot of men, you know, we focus almost exclusively on the sexual addiction side and the compulsive behavior and pornography addiction, and all of that's kind of the world that I've lived in and maybe for many of our listeners. So let's, let's keep going a little deeper into helping people understand the uniqueness or distinctions of. Of a love or relationship addiction, as you say. Diane, what would be some other ways that you would say, especially for those that maybe, like me, really haven't thought through love addiction much at all. How would you help them understand the differences between a love addiction and that of sex or porn addiction?

I think a great way, and we have a tool on our Pure Desire website, is to contrast the love addiction evaluation with the SAS test or the sexual addiction test that we give. And if you look at all the questions on the Love addiction evaluation. Almost every question, there's something like 30 of them. I think almost every question or statement has the word relationship in it. When you look at the sexual addiction test, none of them have the statement relationship. It's more of a pursuit of sexual desire, sexual needs being met. And it can have a romantic element as a sex addict. But most of the time it's just conquer it's power. It's. And even in women, when I've had women who have had love addiction and sexual addiction in my groups, and usually I have both, the women who are sexually addicted, they want power over men. They've been so hurt, so wounded, they want control. Whereas the love addict has a lot of codependent pieces to it. And as you read through the love addiction evaluation, you'll find such statements as, I can only be happy if I have a person, a man in my life. It's difficult to say no. I get involved in romantic, inappropriate relationships with married men who are not available or my bosses. I take responsibility for other people's issues. And so you see a lot of codependent relational issues. And I really challenge the audience to take those two tests and see where they land. And we've had in our counseling of couples, probably a third of the men. I will have them take the love addiction test because it isn't just a woman's problem. I think it goes back to family of origin issues where there's been. Everyone wants a sense of belonging. And if that was neglected, I think that becomes part of the pursuit. So I think there's woundedness from the past, there's attachment issues. And those things all feed on either a sexual addiction or a love addiction.

Well, it sounds like it's motivation. I mean, it sounds like what, what's at the core of it, you know, and that's something that we'll get into a little later in the episode. But the, the idea of always being, having the need to, being loved accepted, affirmed that. So the motivation for which you are pursuing porn or sex or relationship, that sounds like it's the indicator as to what really is going on underneath the surface.

Yeah, and I know for me, I had both a love and a sex addiction, but they, they looked completely different because my sex addiction, which was primarily masturbation with no like porn or anything, started at such a young, young age. I mean, five years old. And that was clearly just to medicate the loneliness and pain I felt from the lack of love that I had in my life. But then going into teenage years, I was extremely sexually Active, you know, and put myself in all kinds of dangerous situations and would really do anything. But none of that was for sex. It was all for trying to feel desired and loved and hoping and wishing that eventually one of those sexual relationships would turn into a romantic relationship. And so on the surface, I could have looked like a sex addict, but really was just longing for love, and it had nothing to do, really, with the sex at all.

Yeah.

So let's keep moving into this. So I kind of talked about a little bit the culture of the church and how maybe that can cause a love addiction or cater to that. But what are some other pieces of life, whether other dynamics, other things that go on in life that might cater or push someone more towards a love addiction?

I think actually it's probably true of both sexual addiction and love addiction. Sometimes, if there's been sexual abuse, especially women, they don't know how to respond to a man except through sex, even though their deep need is love. And so I think any wounding of the past, any trauma of the past, can really create legitimate needs. But because we're fallen creatures, we seek out those needs in illegitimate ways. And I. I think you brought up a good point, Trevor, that the church sometimes can, you know, I'm supposed to be loving. I'm supposed to care for people, can almost turn us into codependence if we have no sense, as Ashley said, of a sense of knowing who I am. You know, I loved what you said, Ashley, that you had to step back and say, wait a minute. Who am I? Who has Christ created me to be? I can't make my husband an idol. So I think it's really important to look at those things to figure out, you know, the origins of them and what's motivating this behavior. What's the pain that I'm medicating?

Yeah, yeah. And just to add to what Diane said, I think that a lot of times, if people grow up in a home where vulnerability and intimacy and deep conversation, that kind of intimacy that comes from things other than sexual intimacy, if those things aren't modeled, then we can kind of see our relationships in these compartments. Like, if I'm having sex with my husband, that means that's relational intimacy. That's how I see intimacy. And we don't see it kind of woven throughout the day. And in all relationships, we tend to categorize what love looks like. And a lot of women, not only myself, but tons of women that I've worked with in groups, if they're not having sex with their husband and they don't see themselves as intimate and close to their husband. It's just. That's how they measure their relationship is based on their sex life. And so it can be really hard for. For somebody. If that's how they see what relational intimacy looks like, then if they're not having that part of the relationship needs met, then they can tend to rush in, even though there could be a lot of emotional brokenness that needs to be repaired in their relationship. And so I just think having that modeled in your household along with who you are in Christ and having that. That constantly be talked about growing up would. Would put you on better footing to not fall into that trap of pursuing love through sex.

Well, I like what you said, Diane, that we find how this meets a need in our life. And that might help someone process this. Because just like with pornography addiction, where we have people saying, well, I don't know that I have an addiction to pornography. I don't think it's meeting any emotional need. I'm just. I'm drawn to these pictures or to a certain kind of woman, or it feels. Feels good. And what we try to help people see is it may have started that way that early in our life when we're coming of age and there's all the hormones and desires. It may have just started as a fascination with pictures or videos or whatever you kind of got hooked on. But if it became something that was unhealthy and was enmeshed in your thinking and you weren't able to let go of, it's because it was meeting a deeper need. And it wasn't just about the pictures or the images. And so the same thing I'm hearing in a relationship or a love addiction, someone might be saying, I just like relationships, or I just like having a boyfriend or a girlfriend. I like how that makes me feel. And I think that is a normal human desire. But if we realize over time it's become a way that we find value, that we feel like life is good, that we're worth something, then we've taken what maybe started to just a normal human desire, and it's become part of our addictive thinking. So we always want to help people look under the surface, so to speak. I think that's something that at pure desire we do really well is not just focus on the behavior, but try to look deeper and say, what's made this behavior become so entrenched in our life and made it so difficult for us to change? And when we look at those emotional needs, when we look at what is it? What purpose is it serving in our life? Then I think we start to get some of the tools to actually make changes.

Well, another thing too with that is that you got to think about just your life story and your narrative. What was available to you at the time of difficulty or trauma or like anything that went wrong in your life. And you know, just my personally, in my life, pornography wasn't available in my home. I mean, it wasn't something that I saw at home for the first time. And but what I did find was that the way I related to women was something that was available, going to school, being around them. And so I think to some degree as well, it's just the narrative of your story. And how, you know, you get exposed to relationship or pornography may also be an indicator of, of really what your addiction looks like moving forward.

I think also the lies you believe as you've been growing up. In other words, if I feel worthless, and especially in men, I see love addiction where if I can get a woman to really like me, then that will deal with my worthlessness. And the same for. Same for women. You'll never amount to anything. Well, I'll show them. I'm going to have a man and I'm going to. So I think you have to examine what are the lies that the enemy's feeding you or that you assumed are true in your growing up years that are driving some of this because you're trying to get rid of that pain of the lie. But sometimes again, our activity, our behavior and trying to counteract that becomes really unhealthy.

Yeah.

What Diane and Trevor were saying brings up a really good point of, of how hidden a love addiction could look. Because just as you both were talking, I just think of numerous women that I've spoken with and I've even struggled with this in my past where, where you could be. Only ever had a relationship with your husband, just one marriage, one sexual partner, but you could be still feeling lonely in your marriage or, or worthless or under, you know, not desired. And then through work, you know, if your boss or your coworker gives you a compliment or you know, you're, you're, you work next to somebody in church and they're, they really praise you for the work you do or anything like that, that could become an addiction. And your attention and your emotions are going to be taken off of your spouse and put on to that other person because then your filter is going to be, what else can I do to get that feeling again? That felt really good to have that praise. And I, you know, I think that's a common issue too, where women are. Men in that category would not even consider themselves an addict of any kind and not realize that they're driven by those comments from people that are not their spouse or not, you know, not God, somebody else is giving them their worth.

It's a deep vulnerability, not necessarily even from their spouse, but from their upbringing. What we find is there's a projection when we minister to couples that sometimes, yes, there can be better communication between the couples, but oftentimes the need is so deep and the vulnerability is so deep, say in the wife or the husband, either one. They're vulnerable to people showing them attention, giving, affirmation, and it's. It's putting a huge burden on their spouse when it's really something from their past, and he kind of becomes a lightning rod for. For meeting all maybe her needs or his needs. So I think looking at our vulnerabilities and asking the question, why is that a vulnerability in my life?

Yeah. Well, you talked about the lies that we listen to, Diane. And I think one of the lies in this area can be that this is only a woman's problem. And when we look at the other side of the equation, for those who struggle with pornography or sexual addiction, it's easy to think of that as only a man's problem. But we know that's not true, that actually pornography use is growing among women even faster than men right now. So on the love addiction side, it's easy to assume this is a women's problem. But is that true? Are there men that struggle with love addiction?

We found that in our counseling, and I think I mentioned probably a third of our counselees, the men. I do give a love addiction test because I say, you know, this sounds more relational. You're not so much after the sex, you want that affirmation, you want that woman's attention. So absolutely, I think it can be both women and men that are vulnerable to this.

And I feel like with. With mine and John's just walk through recovery of his sexual addictions when he started realizing how he had some really strong codependent rescuing type behaviors. That's when our recovery, I think, turned a corner where he would realize that he hurt me. And so we'd work through whatever our plan was to get through that. But then he would be so obsessed with trying to make me feel better. And there was a point where he just said, I am so sorry I hurt you. And I also got stuck in that trap of Manipulation and loving the groveling and him being in that repentant mode, I realized I became stuck in that and love that part of, you know, relapse. And so I. There was a day where he just said, you know what? I can't make you feel better. I can't do this for you. You have your plan, and I have mine, and I'm so sorry I hurt you, but I'm doing the things I need to do to regain your trust, and I just can't do anything more. And I'm thinking, like, where are my presents? And where's my letter that he always writes me? And where's this and that? You know? And it was like. But it was such a healthy turn because it made me face my own reality, that I was looking for these little gifts and rewards to feel better. And he was doing those things. And when he did that, it made us both just recognize we do hurt each other, but we're also responsible for how we respond to that and doing the healthy things to move forward. And so that was such a good turning point for me when he recognized that. And it really did come down to.

Codependency in him, which is exactly what I've. You know, I've come to this conclusion, really, in the last few weeks, that that's the core for me, is a love addiction. It wasn't a sex addiction. It was love that was really motivating it. And it's funny, as you're describing your interactions with John, like, I think about things that I've done, and for me, one of the things I consistently do is I always have the desire or the need to make sure I'm good with my wife. Like, even if we're having a great season in our marriage, nothing really is going wrong. We're communicating well. If she's quiet for more than five minutes, I feel like I have to step in and say, hey, are we okay? Like, did I do something? Are you upset? What are you thinking about? And really what I end up doing is I'm badgering my wife, trying to pull something out that isn't there. There isn't a problem. There isn't an issue. But I guess what I'm seeing now, even just through this conversation, I'm learning that that's just a manifestation of the love addiction that I struggle with, because I really always need to be okay with her, because I. I, in a lot of ways, wrap up my identity in the fact that I'm married, but even more so the type of husband I am. And how I treat and care for my wife.

Well, and I think what you're identifying there, Trevor, is that you're doing a lot of those things with or for your wife so that you feel better.

Right.

And back to what you said, Ashley, about John bringing you gifts or flowers or, you know, letters of apology.

All good things.

Yeah. That we don't want people thinking they shouldn't do that. But it's to look at the motive because I know that happens in my life too, that I'm maybe doing something for my wife, bringing her a gift. And if I'm honest, it's to try to help her work through her anger so I feel better. And it's like that's a very self serving gift that's wrapped up in me and my contentment and my joy versus actually is the motive that I care about her emotions and I want her to feel cared for and loved. And so I think that may be an area to look at. But relationships is what's my motive. Is it actually about trying to manipulate them to be happy so I feel better? Or is it truly to care about what I've done and be repentant in a way that shows I care and that I value the relationship?

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